ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Mariana Mazzucato - Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state.

Why you should listen

States and governments are often depicted as slow, bureaucratic, risk-averse. That argument is used in support of making states smaller and the private sector bigger. In her latest book, The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Private vs. Public Myths in Innovation and in her research, Mariana Mazzucato offers a bold contrarian view: States aren't only market regulators and fixers, but "market makers" -- actively creating a vision for innovation and investing in risky and uncertain areas where private capital may not see the ROI. Yes: Private venture capital is much less risk-taking than generally thought. As an example, the technology behind the iPhone and Google exists because the U.S. government has been very interventionist in funding innovation. Private investors jumped in only later. The same is true today of what promises to be the next big thing after the Internet: the green revolution.

Mazzucato, a professor of economics at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU, University of Sussex), argues that Europe needs today to rediscover that role -- that what the continent needs is not austerity but strategic investments (and new instruments such as public investments banks) towards an "innovation Union."

More profile about the speaker
Mariana Mazzucato | Speaker | TED.com
TEDSummit 2019

Mariana Mazzucato: What is economic value, and who creates it?

瑪莉安娜·馬祖卡托: 價格和創新的真實面貌,以及經濟的幕後推手

Filmed:
1,303,765 views

財富從何而生、出自誰手又是為何而滅?瑪莉安娜·馬祖卡托 (Mariana Mazzucato) 藉著此次深度分析全球經濟,闡釋為何人們不再重視價值,又為何我們得重新檢視現今的金融體制,資本主義始能以勇於創新、永續發展的理念邁進,造福全人類。
- Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
Value creation創建.
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創造價值
00:14
Wealth財富 creation創建.
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創造財富
00:16
These are really powerful強大 words.
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都是很有份量的詞
00:17
Maybe you think of finance金融,
you think of innovation革新,
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也許你聯想到金融、創新
00:20
you think of creativity創造力.
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或是創意
00:22
But who are the value creators創作者?
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但究竟誰創造了價值?
00:24
If we use that word, we must必須 be implying這意味著
that some people aren't creating創建 value.
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說這話的意思就是
並非所有人都在創造價值
誰沒貢獻價值?
00:28
Who are they?
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00:29
The couch長椅 potatoes土豆?
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整天窩在沙發看電視的人?
00:30
The value extractors提取器?
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萃取價值的人?
00:32
The value destroyers驅逐艦?
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破壞價值的人?
00:34
To answer回答 this question, we actually其實
have to have a proper正確 theory理論 of value.
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要解答這問題
我們先要有一個像樣的價值理論
00:39
And I'm here as an economist經濟學家
to break打破 it to you
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今天我以經濟學家的身分
為各位解答
00:42
that we've我們已經 kind of lost丟失 our way
on this question.
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我們迷失在這個問題上了
00:44
Now, don't look so surprised詫異.
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別這麼驚訝
00:46
What I mean by that is,
we've我們已經 stopped停止 contesting爭奪 it.
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我的意思是說
我們已經全盤接受
00:50
We've我們已經 stopped停止 actually其實 asking
really tough強硬 questions問題
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也不再強硬質疑
00:53
about what is the difference區別 between之間
value creation創建 and value extraction萃取,
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創造價值和萃取價值的不同
生產活動和非生產活動的差異
00:57
productive生產的 and unproductive非生產性 activities活動.
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我給各位講講背景知識
00:59
Now, let me just give you
some context上下文 here.
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2009 年當時
01:01
2009 was just about
a year and a half after
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近代最嚴重的其中一次金融危機
01:05
one of the biggest最大
financial金融 crises危機 of our time,
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才解除不到一年半
01:07
second第二 only to the 1929 Great Depression蕭條,
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僅次於 1929 年的大蕭條
01:11
and the CEOCEO of Goldman高盛 Sachs薩克斯 said
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高盛集團執行長聲稱
他們的員工世上最有生產力
01:13
Goldman高盛 Sachs薩克斯 workers工人 are the most
productive生產的 in the world世界.
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01:17
Productivity生產率 and productiveness生產效率,
for an economist經濟學家,
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經濟學家認為生產力高低
01:20
actually其實 has a lot to do with value.
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實際上和價值有很大關係
01:21
You're producing生產 stuff東東,
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你生產東西
01:23
you're producing生產 it
dynamically動態 and efficiently有效率的.
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用的是動態、有效率的方法
01:25
You're also producing生產 things
that the world世界 needs需求, wants and buys購買.
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那些東西也是大家
所需、所想、所買
危機才過短短一年半
01:28
Now, how this could have been said
just one year after the crisis危機,
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那樣的說辭從何而生
01:32
which哪一個 actually其實 had this bank銀行
as well as many許多 other banks銀行 --
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而且這家銀行
我只是拿高盛舉例
01:35
I'm just kind of picking選擇
on Goldman高盛 Sachs薩克斯 here --
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當然還有其他很多銀行
跟金融危機一點也脫不了關係
01:37
at the center中央 of the crisis危機, because
they had actually其實 produced生成
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因為這些銀行製造出
01:40
some pretty漂亮 problematic問題 financial金融 products製品
mainly主要 but not only related有關 to mortgages抵押貸款,
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一些出問題的金融產品
主要是抵押貸款
01:45
which哪一個 saw many許多 thousands數千 of people
actually其實 lose失去 their homes家園.
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讓成千上萬人失去房產
01:49
In 2010, in just one month, September九月,
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2010 年 9 月,僅僅這一個月內
01:52
120,000 people lost丟失 their homes家園
through通過 the foreclosures喪失抵押品贖回權 of that crisis危機.
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有 120,000 人因為這次危機
房子遭銀行徵收而無家可歸
01:58
Between之間 2007 and 2010,
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2007 至 2010 年間
02:00
8.8 million百萬 people lost丟失 their jobs工作.
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880 萬人失業
02:03
The bank銀行 also had to then
be bailed跳傘 out by the US taxpayer納稅人
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這家銀行更是用了
美國納稅人 100 億美金
02:08
for the sum of 10 billion十億 dollars美元.
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才脫離險境
納稅人可沒自詡他們創造了價值
02:11
We didn't hear the taxpayers納稅人 bragging吹牛
that they were value creators創作者,
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但很明顯的
02:14
but obviously明顯, having bailed跳傘 out
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納稅人應以自己為榮
02:16
one of the biggest最大 value-creating價值創造
productive生產的 companies公司,
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拯救了這些
創造價值、又有生產力的大公司
02:19
perhaps也許 they should have.
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02:20
What I want to do next下一個
is kind of ask ourselves我們自己
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我接著想問大家
我們如何迷失了方向
02:23
how we lost丟失 our way,
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02:25
how it could be, actually其實,
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我們怎麼會對那樣的陳述
02:26
that a statement聲明 like that
could almost幾乎 go unnoticed被忽視,
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幾乎毫無所覺
02:29
because it wasn't an after-dinner餐後 joke玩笑;
it was said very seriously認真地.
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因為那席話十分認真
並非只是玩笑
02:33
So what I want to do is bring帶來 you back
300 years年份 in economic經濟 thinking思維,
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我想帶大家回顧
經濟概念的 300 年歷史
當時,光是名稱本身就備受爭議
02:37
when, actually其實, the term術語 was contested爭議.
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02:40
It doesn't mean that
they were right or wrong錯誤,
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那些公司並無對錯
但不能無憑無據
02:42
but you couldn't不能 just call yourself你自己
a value creator創造者, a wealth財富 creator創造者.
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給自己冠上價值、財富創造者的名號
02:45
There was a lot of debate辯論
within the economics經濟學 profession職業.
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這個問題也曾激起經濟學界熱烈討論
02:48
And what I want to argue爭論 is,
we've我們已經 kind of lost丟失 our way,
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我認為我們已經迷失方向了
02:51
and that has actually其實 allowed允許 this term術語,
"wealth財富 creation創建" and "value,"
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才讓「創造財富」、「價值」這些字
失其份量,得來全不費工夫
02:55
to become成為 quite相當 weak and lazy
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02:57
and also easily容易 captured捕獲.
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可以脫口而出
02:59
OK? So let's start開始 --
I hate討厭 to break打破 it to you --
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我很不想提起這件事
03:02
300 years年份 ago.
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300 年前
03:03
Now, what was interesting有趣 300 years年份 ago
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300 年前,特別的是
03:05
is the society社會 was still
an agricultural農業的 type類型 of society社會.
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整個社會仍然奉行農業
03:09
So it's not surprising奇怪
that the economists經濟學家 of the time,
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想當然耳
我們稱那時的經濟學家是重農主義者
03:12
who were called the Physiocrats重農學派,
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03:14
actually其實 put the center中央
of their attention注意 to farm農場 labor勞動.
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他們把重心擺在農業勞力
03:18
When they said, "Where
does value come from?"
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當他們問:「價值從何來?」
03:20
they looked看著 at farming農業.
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考慮的是農事
魁奈 (François Quesnay) 帶領其他人
03:21
And they produced生成 what I think was
probably大概 the world's世界 first spreadsheet電子表格,
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畫了可能是史上第一張表格
03:25
called the "Tableau畫面 Economique經濟,"
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03:27
and this was doneDONE by Fran弗蘭çoisOIS Quesnay奎斯奈,
one of the leaders領導者 of this movement運動.
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稱作「經濟表」
03:31
And it was very interesting有趣,
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有趣的是
03:32
because they didn't just say,
"Farming農業 is the source資源 of value."
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他們不只認為「農事創造價值」
03:35
They then really worried擔心 about
what was happening事件 to that value
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還很苦惱這些價值究竟是如何產生的
03:38
when it was produced生成.
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03:39
What the Tableau畫面 Economique經濟 does --
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經濟表的功用便是
03:41
and I've tried試著 to make it
a bit simpler簡單 here for you --
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我會試著不說得那麼難
經濟表將社會分為三個等第
03:44
is it broke打破 down the classes
in society社會 into three.
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03:46
The farmers農民, creating創建 value,
were called the "productive生產的 class."
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創造價值的農民
也叫作「生產階級」
03:50
Then others其他 who were just
moving移動 some of this value around
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其他人便只是四處搬動這些價值
但這種行為很有用且必要
03:52
but it was useful有用, it was necessary必要,
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03:54
these were the merchants商家;
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這些人是商人
03:55
they were called the "proprietors業主."
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稱作「業主」
03:57
And then there was another另一個 class
that was simply只是 charging充電 the farmers農民 a fee費用
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還有另一階級
他們只用現有資產
04:01
for an existing現有 asset財富, the land土地,
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也就是土地,向農民收錢
04:03
and they called them the "sterile無菌 class."
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稱為「不事生產階級」
04:05
Now, this is a really heavy-hitting重擊 word
if you think what it means手段:
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仔細想想的話
這詞其實很沈重,意思是:
04:09
that if too much of the resources資源
are going to the landlords地主,
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如果地主得到太多資源
則事實上整個系統
生生不息的潛力將受到威脅
04:13
you're actually其實 putting the reproduction再生產
potential潛在 of the system系統 at risk風險.
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04:18
And so all these little arrows箭頭 there
were their way of simulating模擬 --
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這些箭號是當時經濟學者在模擬
04:21
again, spreadsheets電子表格 and simulators模擬器,
these guys were really using運用 big data數據 --
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看到空白表格和模型
不得不說他們運用了大數據
04:25
they were simulating模擬 what would
actually其實 happen發生 under different不同 scenarios場景
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他們模擬不同情境
04:28
if the wealth財富 actually其實 wasn't
reinvested再投資 back into production生產
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如果財富不再投入生產
讓土地更有生產力
04:32
to make that land土地 more productive生產的
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04:34
and was actually其實 being存在
siphoned吸音 out in different不同 ways方法,
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而是以不同方法分離出去
04:36
or even if the proprietors業主
were getting得到 too much.
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或如果甚至是業主獲利太多
04:39
And what later後來 happened發生 in the 1800s,
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之後 1800 年代
04:41
and this was no longer
the Agricultural農業的 Revolution革命
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農業革命已不復存在
04:44
but the Industrial產業 Revolution革命,
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工業革命取而代之
04:45
is that the classical古典 economists經濟學家,
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古典經濟學者
04:47
and these were Adam亞當 Smith工匠, David大衛 Ricardo里卡多,
Karl卡爾 Marx馬克思, the revolutionary革命的,
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像是 Adam Smith,
David Ricardo, Karl Marx
開創新制
04:51
also asked the question "What is value?"
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也想瞭解「價值是什麼?」
04:54
But it's not surprising奇怪 that
because they were actually其實 living活的
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但他們實際生活在工業化時代
04:57
through通過 an industrial產業 era時代
with the rise上升 of machines and factories工廠,
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機械、工廠到處林立
他們的答案是工業勞力
05:00
they said it was industrial產業 labor勞動.
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一點也不足為奇
05:02
So they had a labor勞動 theory理論 of value.
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他們提出勞動價值說
05:05
But again, their focus焦點 was reproduction再生產,
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重點仍是再生產
05:07
this real真實 worry擔心 of what was happening事件
to the value that was created創建
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他們極力想找出
若價值分離到其他地方
05:10
if it was getting得到 siphoned吸音 out.
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創造價值時會發生什麼事
05:12
And in "The Wealth財富 of Nations國家,"
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Adam Smith 在《國富論》提到
05:13
Adam亞當 Smith工匠 had this really great example
of the pin factory where he said
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大頭針工廠這個很好的例子
05:17
if you only have one person
making製造 every一切 bit of the pin,
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如果要一個人負責全部的步驟
05:20
at most you can make one pin a day.
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一天最多就產一根大頭針
05:22
But if you actually其實 invest投資 in factory
production生產 and the division of labor勞動,
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但如果有資源
投入到工廠生產和勞力分工
05:26
new thinking思維 --
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這是新的想法
05:27
today今天, we would use the word
"organizational組織 innovation革新" --
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我們現在稱之為「組織創新」
05:30
then you could increase增加 the productivity生產率
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這樣生產力便會增加
05:32
and the growth發展 and the wealth財富 of nations國家.
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國家也會成長、更加富裕
05:34
So he showed顯示 that 10 specialized專門 workers工人
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他提到了 10 位專業化的工人
05:37
who had been invested投資 in,
in their human人的 capital首都,
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他們的人力資本獲得資源
05:40
could produce生產 4,800 pins a day,
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一天可以生產 4,800 根大頭針
05:42
as opposed反對 to just one
by an unspecialized非專業 worker工人.
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跟一名工人包攬全部工作的結果迥異
05:45
And he and his fellow同伴 classical古典 economists經濟學家
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Adam Smith 和其他古典經濟學家
05:48
also broke打破 down activities活動
into productive生產的 and unproductive非生產性 ones那些.
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也把各類活動分為
生產活動和非生產活動
05:51
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
05:52
And the unproductive非生產性 ones那些 weren't --
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這些非生產活動
05:54
I think you're laughing because
most of you are on that list名單, aren't you?
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你們在笑是因為自己也上榜了,對吧?
05:58
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
05:59
Lawyers律師! I think he was right
about the lawyers律師.
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律師!我想他把律師放上榜是對的
06:02
Definitely無疑 not the professors教授,
the letters of all kind people.
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教授真不該在榜上
其他職業也是
06:05
So lawyers律師, professors教授,
shopkeepers店主, musicians音樂家.
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律師、教授、店主、音樂家
06:09
He obviously明顯 hated the opera歌劇.
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他一定很討厭聽歌劇
06:11
He must必須 have seen看到
the worst最差 performance性能 of his life
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他寫這本書前一晚
一定聽了最差勁的歌劇
06:13
the night before writing寫作 this book.
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06:15
There's at least最小
three professions職業 up there
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名單中至少有三種職業
06:17
that have to do with the opera歌劇.
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跟歌劇有關
但這份名單並非要人們
06:18
But this wasn't an exercise行使
of saying, "Don't do these things."
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「不要去從事這些職業」
06:21
It was just, "What's going to happen發生
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而是在說
「如果我們真的讓經濟的一部份
06:23
if we actually其實 end結束 up allowing允許
some parts部分 of the economy經濟 to get too large
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發展的太壯大
06:27
without really thinking思維 about
how to increase增加 the productivity生產率
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還不設法增加這些價值來源的生產力
會發生什麼事?」
06:30
of the source資源 of the value
that they thought was key,
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這裡價值來源指的是工業勞力
06:33
which哪一個 was industrial產業 labor勞動.
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06:35
And again, don't ask yourself你自己
is this right or is this wrong錯誤,
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不要太斟酌其中的對錯
列這份名單本來就很有爭議
06:38
it was just very contested爭議.
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06:39
By making製造 these lists名單,
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06:41
it actually其實 forced被迫 them also
to ask interesting有趣 questions問題.
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也讓他們提出一些很有趣的問題
06:44
And their focus焦點,
as the focus焦點 of the Physiocrats重農學派,
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他們和重農主義者其實都想知道
06:48
was, in fact事實, on these objective目的
conditions條件 of production生產.
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生產的客觀條件
06:51
They also looked看著, for example,
at the class struggle鬥爭.
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他們也研究其他事情,像是階級鬥爭
他們認定工資
06:54
Their understanding理解 of wages工資
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06:55
had to do with the objective目的,
if you want, power功率 relationships關係,
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跟這些客觀的權力階級有關係
06:59
the bargaining議價 power功率 of capital首都 and labor勞動.
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資方和勞方在工資上討價還價的能力
07:01
But again, factories工廠, machines,
division of labor勞動,
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工廠、機器、勞力分工
07:05
agricultural農業的 land土地
and what was happening事件 to it.
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農業用土地,才是重點
07:07
So the big revolution革命
that then happened發生 --
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重大變革接著發生
07:11
and this, by the way, is not often經常
taught in economics經濟學 classes --
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順道一提
經濟學課堂裡通常不提這個
07:14
the big revolution革命 that happened發生
with the current當前 system系統
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現今我們的經濟思想
稱作新古典經濟學派
07:17
of economic經濟 thinking思維 that we have,
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07:18
which哪一個 is called "neoclassical新古典 economics經濟學,"
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發生重大變革
07:21
was that the logic邏輯 completely全然 changed.
160
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改變了整套邏輯思想
07:23
It changed in two ways方法.
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變動了兩個方面
07:25
It changed from this focus焦點 on
objective目的 conditions條件 to subjective主觀 ones那些.
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人們開始更關心主觀條件
而不是客觀條件
07:29
Let me explain說明 what I mean by that.
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讓我解釋一下
客觀,就像我剛說的
07:31
Objective目的, in the way I just said.
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07:33
Subjective主觀, in the sense that
all the attention注意 went to
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主觀,大家更關注
07:36
how individuals個人 of different不同 sorts排序
make their decisions決定.
166
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不同類型的人如何做決定
07:39
OK, so workers工人 are maximizing最大化
their choices選擇 of leisure閒暇 versus work.
167
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勞工試圖在工作
和休閒中找到最大效益
07:43
Consumers消費者 are maximizing最大化
their so-called所謂 utility效用,
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消費者也想得到最多所謂的效用
07:46
which哪一個 is a proxy代理 for happiness幸福,
169
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效用是幸福的代名詞
07:48
and firms公司 are maximizing最大化 their profits利潤.
170
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企業也想賺到最多的利益
07:51
And the idea理念 behind背後 this was that
then we can aggregate骨料 this up,
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我們可以累積這些效益
看看會有什麼結果
07:55
and we see what that turns into,
172
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就是背後的機制
07:56
which哪一個 are these nice不錯, fancy幻想
supply-and-demand供求關係 curves曲線
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是這些完美、花俏的供需曲線
07:59
which哪一個 produce生產 a price價錢,
174
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可以計算出一個價格
08:01
an equilibrium平衡 price價錢.
175
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一個均衡價格
08:02
It's an equilibrium平衡 price價錢,
because we also added添加 to it
176
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交叉點是一個均衡價格
因為我們也納入許多牛頓的物理等式
08:05
a lot of Newtonian牛頓 physics物理 equations方程
177
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08:07
where centers中心 of gravity重力 are very much
part部分 of the organizing組織 principle原理.
178
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重心就是組織原則的一部分
08:11
But the second第二 point here is that
that equilibrium平衡 price價錢, or prices價格,
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第二點是由均衡價格揭示價值
08:15
reveal揭示 value.
180
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08:17
So the revolution革命 here is a change更改
from objective目的 to subjective主觀,
181
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此(經濟理論)變革
不只從客觀變為主觀觀點
邏輯也變為
08:20
but also the logic邏輯 is no longer
one of what is value,
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不再考慮什麼有價值
08:24
how is it being存在 determined決心,
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如何決定價值
經濟體系的再生產潛力有多大
08:25
what is the reproductive生殖
potential潛在 of the economy經濟,
184
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(上述不再)決定價格
08:28
which哪一個 then leads引線 to a theory理論 of price價錢
185
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08:30
but rather the reverse相反:
186
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反而是正好相反:
08:31
a theory理論 of price價錢 and exchange交換
187
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由價格和交換理論揭示其價值
08:33
which哪一個 reveals揭示 value.
188
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08:35
Now, this is a huge巨大 change更改.
189
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這是個重大的變化
08:37
And it's not just an academic學術的 exercise行使,
as fascinating迷人 as that might威力 be.
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因為這不只跟學術有關
雖然學術上很有趣
08:41
It affects影響 how we measure測量 growth發展.
191
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還會影響我們如何量測發展
08:43
It affects影響 how we steer駕駛 economies經濟
to produce生產 more of some activities活動,
192
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會影響我們如何操縱經濟
增加或減少某些生產活動
08:46
less of others其他,
193
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為何給予某些活動較多酬勞
08:48
how we also remunerate報酬
some activities活動 more than others其他.
194
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08:50
And it also just kind of makes品牌 you think,
195
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還會令你思考
08:53
you know, are you happy快樂 to get out of bed
if you're a value creator創造者 or not,
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如果你沒創造價值的話
是否還願意起床工作
08:57
and how is the price價錢 system系統 itself本身
if you aren't determining決定 that?
197
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如果你沒參與決定
那麼價格體系本身會如何?
我剛剛說了
09:01
I mentioned提到 it affects影響
how we think about output產量.
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我們對生產的看法會受到影響
09:04
If we only include包括, for example, in GDPGDP,
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如果我們只把定了價的行為
09:07
those activities活動 that have prices價格,
200
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舉例來說,納入 GDP
09:09
all sorts排序 of really weird奇怪的 things happen發生.
201
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很多奇怪的事會發生
09:11
Feminist女性主義 economists經濟學家
and environmental環境的 economists經濟學家
202
539422
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女性主義經濟學家和環境經濟學家
09:13
have actually其實 written書面
about this quite相當 a bit.
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其實發表了很多相關研究
09:15
Let me give you some examples例子.
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這邊有幾個例子
09:17
If you marry結婚 your babysitter保姆,
GDPGDP will go down, so do not do it.
205
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如果你娶了你家的褓姆
GDP會下降
所以別這麼做
09:22
Do not be tempted動心 to do this, OK?
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別想著要這麼做,好嗎?
09:24
Because an activity活動 that perhaps也許 was
before being存在 paid支付 for is still being存在 doneDONE
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因為之前需要收費的生產活動
雖然現在還持續,卻已經免費了
09:28
but is no longer paid支付.
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(笑聲)
09:29
(Laughter笑聲)
209
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如果你汙染環境,GDP 會上升
09:30
If you pollute污染, GDPGDP goes up.
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別汙染
09:31
Still don't do it, but if you do it,
you'll你會 help the economy經濟.
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但汙染對經濟有益
為什麼?
09:34
Why? Because we have to actually其實
pay工資 someone有人 to clean清潔 it.
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因為我們需要付錢請人清理汙染
09:38
Now, what's also really interesting有趣
is what happened發生 to finance金融
213
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金融體制發生的事情也同樣很有趣
09:41
in the financial金融 sector扇形 in GDPGDP.
214
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2021
計算 GDP 時
這個體制歸類在金融產業
09:43
This also, by the way, is something
I'm always surprised詫異
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我一直很意外
09:46
that many許多 economists經濟學家 don't know.
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很多經濟學家不知道這件事
09:47
Up until直到 1970,
217
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1970 年以前
09:49
most of the financial金融 sector扇形
was not even included包括 in GDPGDP.
218
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大部分金融產業
還未納入 GDP 計算
09:53
It was kind of indirectly間接,
perhaps也許 not knowingly有意識,
219
581005
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重農主義者間接或不知覺地
09:55
still being存在 seen看到 through通過 the eyes眼睛
of the Physiocrats重農學派
220
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看穿這件事
09:58
as just kind of moving移動 stuff東東 around,
not actually其實 producing生產 anything new.
221
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也就是他們所說的移動東西
卻沒有製造出任何新的出來
10:02
So only those activities活動
that had an explicit明確的 price價錢 were included包括.
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所以只將明確標價的活動納入計算
10:06
For example, if you went to get
a mortgage抵押, you were charged帶電 a fee費用.
223
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就像是申請抵押貸款要付手續費
會算進 GDP、國民所得、產品會計
10:09
That went into GDPGDP and the national國民
income收入 and product產品 accounting會計.
224
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但像是給付的淨利息卻不會算進去
10:13
But, for example,
net interest利益 payments支付 didn't,
225
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2753
10:15
the difference區別 between之間
what banks銀行 were earning盈利 in interest利益
226
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3959
這個數字是銀行貸款給你所賺的利息
10:19
if they gave you a loan貸款 and what
they were paying付款 out for a deposit存款.
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和銀行付給存款人利息間的差額
這筆錢沒有納入
10:23
That wasn't being存在 included包括.
228
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所以會計相關人員開始研究數據
10:24
And so the people doing the accounting會計
started開始 to look at some data數據,
229
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10:27
which哪一個 started開始 to show顯示
that the size尺寸 of finance金融
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發現金融制度的規模
10:30
and these net interest利益 payments支付
231
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還有這些給付的淨利息
10:31
were actually其實 growing生長 substantially基本上.
232
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1800
都大幅的成長
10:33
And they called this
the "banking銀行業 problem問題."
233
621710
2112
他們稱這個現象為「銀行業問題」
10:35
These were some people working加工
inside, actually其實, the United聯合的 Nations國家
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3188
這些人其實是在
聯合國的一個組織工作
10:39
in a group called the Systems系統
of National國民 [Accounts帳戶], SNASna.
235
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2986
叫做國民經濟核算體系
10:42
They called it the "banking銀行業 problem問題,"
236
630068
1789
他們稱之為「銀行業問題」
10:43
like, "Oh my God, this thing is huge巨大,
and we're not even including包含 it."
237
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3370
像是說:「天啊,
規模這麼大,卻沒有算進去」
他們沒實際去畫經濟表
10:47
So instead代替 of stopping停止 and actually其實
making製造 that Tableau畫面 Economique經濟
238
635275
3167
10:50
or asking some of these
fundamental基本的 questions問題
239
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2131
也沒問基礎的問題
那些是古典派學者想知道的
10:52
that also the classicals古典 were asking
about what is actually其實 happening事件,
240
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經濟中不同類型活動間的實際分工
10:55
the division of labor勞動 between之間 different不同
types類型 of activities活動 in the economy經濟,
241
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3569
這些人只幫給付的淨利息取個名字
10:59
they simply只是 gave these
net interest利益 payments支付 a name名稱.
242
647556
2449
各商業銀行稱這個現象為
11:02
So the commercial廣告 banks銀行, they called this
"financial金融 intermediation仲介."
243
650029
3330
「金融中介」
11:05
That went into the NIPA國家計畫 accounts賬戶.
244
653383
1898
也納入了國民帳戶
11:07
And the investment投資 banks銀行
were called the "risk-taking冒險 activities活動,"
245
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3640
投資銀行得到了
「風險承擔活動」的名號
11:10
and that went in.
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1151
也納入其中
11:12
In case案件 I haven't沒有 explained解釋 this properly正確,
247
660144
2005
我怕我沒解釋清楚
這條紅線告訴我們
11:14
that red line is showing展示 how much quicker更快
248
662173
1969
金融中介跟整個經濟體相比
11:16
financial金融 intermediation仲介
as a whole整個 was growing生長
249
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2769
11:18
compared相比 to the rest休息 of the economy經濟,
the blue藍色 line, industry行業.
250
666959
3193
也就是藍色這條線
成長的有多快
11:22
And so this was quite相當 extraordinary非凡,
251
670679
2070
這就是不尋常之處
11:24
because what actually其實 happened發生,
and what we know today今天,
252
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2582
有很多關於這個主題的研究
11:27
and there's different不同 people
writing寫作 about this,
253
675331
2266
這是英格蘭銀行的資料
11:29
this data數據 here
is from the Bank銀行 of England英國,
254
677597
2171
因為就真實情況和我們所了解
11:31
is that lots of what finance金融
was actually其實 doing
255
679768
2284
金融體制事實上
11:34
from the 1970s and '80s on
256
682052
1935
從 1970 到 80 年代
11:36
was basically基本上 financing融資 itself本身:
257
684194
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其實就是在投資自己
11:38
finance金融 financing融資 finance金融.
258
686748
1853
金融業投資金融業
11:40
And what I mean by that is finance金融,
insurance保險 and real真實 estate房地產.
259
688625
3531
我指的是金融、保險還有不動產業
11:44
In fact事實, in the UK聯合王國,
260
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1603
其實在英國
11:45
something like between之間
10 and 20 percent百分 of finance金融
261
693807
3097
真正進入到經濟體和產業的資金
11:48
finds認定 its way into
the real真實 economy經濟, into industry行業,
262
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2537
大概有百分之十到二十
11:51
say, into the energy能源 sector扇形,
into pharmaceuticals藥品,
263
699489
2668
像是進入能源產業、製藥展業
11:54
into the IT sector扇形,
264
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1718
或是資訊科技產業
11:55
but most of it goes back
into that acronym縮寫, FIRE:
265
703923
4134
但大部分還是回流到
金融業、保險業和不動產業
12:00
finance金融, insurance保險 and real真實 estate房地產.
266
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1734
簡稱 FIRE
12:01
It's very conveniently便利地 called FIRE.
267
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2559
說 FIRE 比較方便
12:04
Now, this is interesting有趣 because, in fact事實,
268
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3540
這很耐人尋味,因為事實上
12:07
it's not to say that finance金融
is good or bad,
269
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3039
很難斷定資金是好還是壞
12:11
but the degree to which哪一個,
270
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1410
只能說
因為實際上創造了收入
12:12
by just having to give it a name名稱,
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720483
1603
12:14
because it actually其實 had an income收入
that was being存在 generated產生,
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2863
僅僅為這現象取了個名稱
12:16
as opposed反對 to pausing暫停 and asking,
"What is it actually其實 doing?" --
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724997
3123
而不是質疑
「實際上是怎麼一回事?」
12:20
that was a missed錯過 opportunity機會.
274
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1465
浪費了那次機會
12:21
Similarly同樣, in the real真實 economy經濟,
in industry行業 itself本身, what was happening事件?
275
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4376
同樣的
在實際的經濟產業裡發生了什麼事?
12:26
And this real真實 focus焦點 on prices價格
and also share分享 prices價格
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只專注在價格還有股價
12:33
has created創建 a huge巨大 problem問題
of reinvestment再投資,
277
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2520
造成再投資這個很大的問題
12:35
again, this real真實 attention注意 that both
the Physiocrats重農學派 and the classicals古典 had
278
743953
3818
重農主義者和古典主義者
都在關注這個問題
12:39
to the degree to which哪一個 the value
that was being存在 generated產生 in the economy經濟
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經濟體裡,創造出來的價值
12:43
was in fact事實 being存在 reinvested再投資 back in.
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實際上又投資回去
12:45
And so what we have today今天 is
an ultrafinancialized超金融化 industrial產業 sector扇形
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所以今天我們有超金融化的工業產業
12:49
where, increasingly日益, a share分享
of the profits利潤 and the net income收入
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3671
其獲利或是淨利的一部分
12:53
are not actually其實 going
back into production生產,
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沒再投入生產
12:56
into human人的 capital首都 training訓練,
into research研究 and development發展
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人資訓練、研發
12:59
but just being存在 siphoned吸音 out
in terms條款 of buying購買 back your own擁有 shares分享,
285
767829
3885
只是抽出來買回自己的股份
13:03
which哪一個 boosts提升 stock股票 options選項,
which哪一個 is, in fact事實, the way
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2780
提高了認股權
13:06
that many許多 executives高管 are getting得到 paid支付.
287
774542
1978
其實也付了很多經理的薪水
13:08
And, you know, some
share分享 buybacks回購 is absolutely絕對 fine,
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2564
回購股權沒什麼大不了
但這系統卻很不正常
13:11
but this system系統
is completely全然 out of whack重打.
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2037
這些數據告訴我們過去十年
13:13
These numbers數字 that I'm showing展示 you here
290
781193
1869
13:15
show顯示 that in the last 10 years年份,
466 of the S and P 500 companies公司
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4197
標普 500 公司中
466 間公司
13:19
have spent花費 over four trillion
on just buying購買 back their shares分享.
292
787307
3725
花了超過四兆回購股權
13:23
And what you see then if you aggregate骨料
this up at the macroeconomic宏觀經濟 level水平,
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3815
如果在總體經濟層面
把這些數字加起來
13:26
so if we look at aggregate骨料
business商業 investment投資,
294
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2546
看看企業總投資
13:29
which哪一個 is a percentage百分比 of GDPGDP,
295
797465
1987
也就是 GDP 中的佔比
13:31
you also see this falling落下 level水平
of business商業 investment投資.
296
799476
3654
能看到企業投資下降
13:35
And this is a problem問題.
297
803154
1179
這就是問題所在
13:36
This, by the way, is a huge巨大 problem問題
for skills技能 and job工作 creation創建.
298
804357
4310
這件事對技術
新工作機會,也是很大的問題
13:40
You might威力 have heard聽說 there's lots
of attention注意 these days
299
808691
2706
最近大家可能很常聽到
「機器人會搶走我們的工作嗎?」
13:43
to, "Are the robots機器人 taking服用 our jobs工作?"
300
811421
1779
其實機械化這件事幾世紀來
13:45
Well, mechanization機械化 has
for centuries百年, actually其實, taken採取 jobs工作,
301
813224
2956
已經搶走了好多工作
13:48
but as long as profits利潤 were being存在
reinvested再投資 back into production生產,
302
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3326
但只要獲利重新投資回生產活動
就沒什麼好擔心的
13:51
then it didn't matter: new jobs工作 appeared出現.
303
819554
1998
會出現很多新工作
13:53
But this lack缺乏 of reinvestment再投資
is, in fact事實, very dangerous危險.
304
821576
3790
沒有重新投資其實很危險
13:57
Similarly同樣, in the pharmaceutical製藥 industry行業,
for example, how prices價格 are set,
305
825390
4142
例如,製藥產業價格怎麼定
14:01
it's quite相當 interesting有趣 how it doesn't look
at these objective目的 conditions條件
306
829556
3381
沒有考慮整個經濟體裡
14:04
of the collective集體 way in which哪一個 value
is created創建 in the economy經濟.
307
832961
4359
創造價值的客觀條件
這件事非常奇怪
14:09
So in the sector扇形 where you have
lots of different不同 actors演員 --
308
837344
2790
所以那些受多方影響的產業
14:12
public上市, private私人的, of course課程, but also
third-sector第三部門 organizations組織 --
309
840158
3565
公部門、私部門
還有第三部門
14:15
creating創建 value,
310
843747
1152
都在創造價值
14:16
the way we actually其實 measure測量
value in this sector扇形
311
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2388
我們其實是以價格系統
14:19
is through通過 the price價錢 system系統 itself本身.
312
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2205
計算這個部門的價值
14:21
Prices價格 reveal揭示 value.
313
849564
1513
價格告訴我們價值
14:23
So when, recently最近,
314
851101
1331
所以最近
14:24
the price價錢 of an antibiotic抗生素
went up by 400 percent百分 overnight過夜,
315
852456
4186
抗生速價格一夜之間漲了四倍
大家就問這間公司的執行長:
「怎麼可以這樣?
14:28
and the CEOCEO was asked,
"How can you do this?
316
856666
2072
人們需要抗生素,這樣很不公平」
14:30
People actually其實 need that antibiotic抗生素.
317
858762
1798
14:32
That's unfair不公平."
318
860584
1160
他回答:「我們有道義責任
14:33
He said, "Well, we have a moral道德 imperative勢在必行
319
861768
2057
要讓價格高到市場所能承受的水平」
14:35
to allow允許 prices價格 to go
what the market市場 will bear,"
320
863849
2744
14:38
completely全然 dismissing解聘 the fact事實
that in the US, for example,
321
866617
3059
完全沒考慮到一件事
以美國為例
14:41
the National國民 Institutes研究院 of Health健康
spent花費 over 30 billion十億 a year
322
869700
4312
衛生研究院每年花三百億
14:46
on the medical research研究
that actually其實 leads引線 to these drugs毒品.
323
874036
2780
在研究這些藥品
所以忽視客觀條件就像是這樣
14:48
So, again, a lack缺乏 of attention注意
to those objective目的 conditions條件
324
876840
2934
只讓價格系統定義價值
14:51
and just allowing允許 the price價錢 system系統
itself本身 to reveal揭示 the value.
325
879798
3246
14:55
Now, this is not just
an academic學術的 exercise行使,
326
883068
2548
這可不只是學界需要關心
14:57
as interesting有趣 as it may可能 be.
327
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1843
雖然很有趣
14:59
All this really matters事項
[for] how we measure測量 output產量,
328
887507
3821
這一切都會影響我們如何測量產量
還有如何引導經濟發展
15:03
to how we steer駕駛 the economy經濟,
329
891352
1574
15:04
to whether是否 you feel
that you're productive生產的,
330
892950
2115
你是否覺得自己有生產力
15:07
to which哪一個 sectors行業 we end結束 up
helping幫助, supporting支持
331
895089
3342
或是決定要扶持哪些產業
15:10
and also making製造 people feel
proud驕傲 to be part部分 of.
332
898455
3180
也要讓人民為身在其中感到光榮
15:13
In fact事實, going back to that quote引用,
333
901659
1895
我們如果再看一次那句引用來的話
15:15
it's not surprising奇怪 that Blankfein布蘭克費恩
could say that.
334
903578
2335
(高盛集團執行長)
布蘭克芬那樣說並不奇怪
15:17
He was right.
335
905913
1070
他沒說錯
15:18
In the way that we actually其實 measure測量
production生產, productivity生產率
336
906983
2893
從測量經濟體生產
生產力和價值的方式來看
15:21
and value in the economy經濟,
337
909900
1284
15:23
of course課程 Goldman高盛 Sachs薩克斯 workers工人
are the most productive生產的.
338
911208
2668
高盛集團的員工當然最有生產力
他們事實上也賺最多錢
15:25
They are in fact事實 earning盈利 the most.
339
913900
1647
他們的工資定義了價值
15:27
The price價錢 of their labor勞動
is revealing揭示 their value.
340
915571
2428
我就不再贅述了
15:30
But this becomes tautological同義反复, of course課程.
341
918023
2481
15:32
And so there's a real真實 need to rethink反思.
342
920528
2414
不過我們需要思考
15:35
We need to rethink反思
how we're measuring測量 output產量,
343
923609
2174
思考我們測量產量的方式
15:37
and in fact事實 there's some
amazing驚人 experiments實驗 worldwide全世界.
344
925807
2595
各國其實持續在做一些很奇妙的實驗
15:40
In New Zealand新西蘭, for example, they now have
a gross national國民 happiness幸福 indicator指示符.
345
928426
4534
像是紐西蘭有國民幸福總值
15:44
In Bhutan不丹, also, they're thinking思維
about happiness幸福 and well-being福利 indicators指標.
346
932984
4291
不丹也有幸福感指數
15:49
But the problem問題 is that we can't
just be adding加入 things in.
347
937299
3265
問題在於我們不能只是把數字加起來
15:52
We do have to pause暫停,
348
940588
1157
我們要停下來想一想
15:53
and I think this should be
a moment時刻 for pause暫停,
349
941769
2175
現在就是個很好的時機
15:55
given特定 that we see so little
has actually其實 changed
350
943968
2262
因為從金融危機以來
我們沒做什麼改變
15:58
since以來 the financial金融 crisis危機,
351
946254
1325
15:59
to make sure that
we are not also confusing撲朔迷離
352
947603
3508
這時間也讓我們能夠分辨
16:03
value extraction萃取 with value creation創建,
353
951135
1997
萃取價制和創造價值
應該要看看什麼包含於其中
16:05
so looking at what's included包括,
not just adding加入 more,
354
953156
3307
而不只是把數字往上加
16:08
to make sure that we're not, for example,
confusing撲朔迷離 rents租金 with profits利潤.
355
956487
3867
確保我們沒把
像是租金算進獲利
16:12
Rents租金 for the classicals古典
was about unearned不勞而獲 income收入.
356
960378
2978
古典學派視租金為非勞動所得
16:15
Today今天, rents租金, when they're
talked about in economics經濟學,
357
963380
2502
現在經濟學提到租金
16:17
is just an imperfection缺陷
towards a competitive競爭的 price價錢
358
965906
3206
就是競爭價格的小瑕疵
16:21
that could be competed競爭 away
if you take away some asymmetries不對稱.
359
969136
3479
如果移除一些不對稱因素
就能抵銷掉
16:25
Second第二, we of course課程 can steer駕駛
activities活動 into what the classicals古典 called
360
973376
4244
再者,我們當然也能引導生產活動
到古典學派所稱的「生產邊界」
16:29
the "production生產 boundary邊界."
361
977644
1276
16:30
This should not be an us-versus-them我們對他們,
362
978944
1947
這不該是彼此對立
16:32
big, bad finance金融 versus
good, other sectors行業.
363
980915
3086
大規模、不良資金
與其他優良部門對立
16:36
We could reform改革 finance金融.
364
984025
1412
我們能夠改良金融體系
16:37
There was a real真實 lost丟失 opportunity機會
in some ways方法 after the crisis危機.
365
985461
3066
金融危機過後,我們錯失了良機
16:40
We could have had
the financial金融 transaction交易 tax,
366
988551
2568
我們本應該徵收金融交易稅
16:43
which哪一個 would have rewarded獎勵
long-termism長期主義 over short-termism短期行為,
367
991143
3486
鼓勵長期投資而不是短期投資
16:46
but we didn't decide決定 to do that globally全球.
368
994653
2309
但並非全世界都有這樣做
16:48
We can. We can change更改 our minds頭腦.
369
996986
1790
我們能夠改變思考模式
16:50
We can also set up
new types類型 of institutions機構.
370
998800
2129
我們也能設立新的機構
16:52
There's different不同 types類型 of, for example,
public上市 financial金融 institutions機構 worldwide全世界
371
1000953
4150
全世界有很多像是公共財務機構
16:57
that are actually其實 providing提供 that patient患者,
long-term長期, committed提交 finance金融
372
1005127
3664
提供長期、穩定的資金給小型企業
17:00
that helps幫助 small firms公司 grow增長, that help
infrastructure基礎設施 and innovation革新 happen發生.
373
1008815
4092
促進基礎建設和創新
17:04
But this shouldn't不能 just be about output產量.
374
1012931
2257
我們不能只著眼於產量
17:07
This shouldn't不能 just be about
the rate of output產量.
375
1015212
2275
或是生產速度
整個社會都應該緩一緩並想一想
17:09
We should also as a society社會 pause暫停
376
1017511
1766
17:11
and ask: What value are we even creating創建?
377
1019301
2942
我們創造的是什麼價值
17:14
And I just want to end結束 with the fact事實
that this week we are celebrating慶祝
378
1022267
3731
我最後想跟各位分享
這個星期是
人類登月五十週年
17:18
the 50th anniversary週年 of the Moon月亮 landing降落.
379
1026022
2621
17:20
This required需要 the public上市 sector扇形,
the private私人的 sector扇形,
380
1028667
2788
這項創舉需要公部門、私部門
17:23
to invest投資 and innovate創新
in all sorts排序 of ways方法,
381
1031479
2925
在各方面投資和創新
不只侷限在飛行技術
17:26
not just around aeronautics航空學.
382
1034428
1826
17:28
It included包括 investment投資 in areas
like nutrition營養 and materials物料.
383
1036278
4018
還包含要投資營養、材料等領域
17:32
There were lots of actual實際 mistakes錯誤
that were doneDONE along沿 the way.
384
1040320
3241
一路上其實錯誤百出
17:35
In fact事實, what government政府 did was it used
its full充分 power功率 of procurement採購,
385
1043585
3387
事實上政府只是運用他們的採購能力
17:38
for example, to fuel汽油
those bottom-up自下而上 solutions解決方案,
386
1046996
3025
找出從細節到整體的解決方法
17:42
of which哪一個 some failed失敗.
387
1050045
1627
有些失敗了
17:43
But are failures故障 part部分 of value creation創建?
388
1051696
2816
但失敗是創造價值的一部分嗎?
17:46
Or are they just mistakes錯誤?
389
1054536
1324
或單純就只是錯誤?
17:47
Or how do we actually其實 also
nurture培育 the experimentation實驗,
390
1055884
3769
還是我們也助長了實驗的方法
17:51
the trial審訊 and error錯誤 and error錯誤 and error錯誤?
391
1059677
2552
試驗還有很多的錯誤經驗呢?
17:54
Bell Labs實驗室, which哪一個 was
the R and D laboratory實驗室 of AT and T,
392
1062253
3195
貝爾實驗室曾負責 AT&T 的研發工作
17:57
actually其實 came來了 from an era時代
where government政府 was quite相當 courageous勇敢.
393
1065472
3727
當年的政府勇氣可嘉
18:01
It actually其實 asked AT and T that
in order訂購 to maintain保持 its monopoly壟斷 status狀態,
394
1069223
4856
政府那時要求 AT&T
為了保持壟斷
必須要把獲利
18:06
it had to reinvest再投資 its profits利潤
back into the real真實 economy經濟,
395
1074103
3647
重新投資進實體經濟、創新
18:09
innovation革新
396
1077774
1262
18:11
and innovation革新 beyond telecoms電信.
397
1079060
1678
不限於電信領域的創新
18:12
That was the history歷史,
the early history歷史 of Bell Labs實驗室.
398
1080762
2574
這是貝爾實驗室的早期歷史
18:15
So how we can get these new conditions條件
around reinvestment再投資
399
1083360
3766
我們要怎麼達到新條件以再投資
18:19
to collectively invest投資
in new types類型 of value
400
1087150
2852
來一起投資新型的價值
18:22
directed針對 at some of the biggest最大
challenges挑戰 of our time,
401
1090026
2908
來解決我們這代最大的問題
18:24
like climate氣候 change更改?
402
1092958
1271
像是環境變遷?
18:26
This is a key question.
403
1094253
1967
這才是關鍵問題
18:28
But we should also ask ourselves我們自己,
404
1096244
1728
我們也該問問自己
18:29
had there been a net
present當下 value calculation計算
405
1097996
3687
倘若進行了淨現值計算
18:33
or a cost-benefit成本效益 analysis分析 doneDONE
406
1101707
2720
或做了成本效益分析
18:36
about whether是否 or not to even try
to go to the Moon月亮 and back again
407
1104451
3615
以決定是否嘗試一次次往返月球
18:40
in a generation,
408
1108090
1177
18:41
we probably大概 wouldn't不會 have started開始.
409
1109291
2488
我們可能就不會開始
18:43
So thank God,
410
1111803
1720
所以感謝老天爺
18:45
because I'm an economist經濟學家,
and I can tell you,
411
1113547
2140
我是經濟學家,所以能告訴你
18:47
value is not just price價錢.
412
1115711
1933
價值並非只是價格
18:50
Thank you.
413
1118057
1182
謝謝
18:51
(Applause掌聲)
414
1119263
2221
(掌聲)
Translated by Pei-Chen Liu
Reviewed by Helen Chang

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Mariana Mazzucato - Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state.

Why you should listen

States and governments are often depicted as slow, bureaucratic, risk-averse. That argument is used in support of making states smaller and the private sector bigger. In her latest book, The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Private vs. Public Myths in Innovation and in her research, Mariana Mazzucato offers a bold contrarian view: States aren't only market regulators and fixers, but "market makers" -- actively creating a vision for innovation and investing in risky and uncertain areas where private capital may not see the ROI. Yes: Private venture capital is much less risk-taking than generally thought. As an example, the technology behind the iPhone and Google exists because the U.S. government has been very interventionist in funding innovation. Private investors jumped in only later. The same is true today of what promises to be the next big thing after the Internet: the green revolution.

Mazzucato, a professor of economics at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU, University of Sussex), argues that Europe needs today to rediscover that role -- that what the continent needs is not austerity but strategic investments (and new instruments such as public investments banks) towards an "innovation Union."

More profile about the speaker
Mariana Mazzucato | Speaker | TED.com