TEDxRiodelaPlata
Sebastián Bortnik: The conversation we're not having about digital child abuse
Sebastián Bortnik: 有關網路虐童，我們所欠缺的討論
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信息安全專家 Sebastián Bortnik 認為：我們應當告訴孩子們在網絡上會面臨的風險。在本演講中，他談論了「網路誘童 (grooming)」的問題，即一些成年人抱着性侵犯的目的在網路上搜尋兒童。為了保護孩子們，他概述了關於科技我們應當進行的討論。
Sebastián Bortnik - Information security specialist
Sebastián Bortnik's work is focused on preventing cyber attacks. Full bio
Sebastián Bortnik's work is focused on preventing cyber attacks. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
[This talk contains graphic content.
Viewer discretion is advised.]
Viewer discretion is advised.]
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（本講座所含影像可能會
引起不適，請酌情觀看。）
引起不適，請酌情觀看。）
00:16
This is Nina Rodríguez's Facebook profile.
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這是 Nina Rodríguez 的臉書檔案。
00:21
This person had three different profiles
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她有三個不同的檔案，
00:23
and 890 kids between 8 and 13 years old
among her friends list.
among her friends list.
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並且好友列表裏有 890 名
年齡介於八到十三歲的兒童。
年齡介於八到十三歲的兒童。
00:30
These are excerpts of a chat
with one of those kids.
with one of those kids.
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這是她和其中一個
孩子的聊天內容的摘錄。
孩子的聊天內容的摘錄。
00:37
This is an exact copy of the chat.
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這是他們的原話。
00:40
It's part of the case file.
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這些記錄是本案件的檔案的一部分。
00:44
This kid started sending private photos
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這個孩子隨後便開始發送私密照片，
00:48
until his family realized
what was going on.
what was going on.
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直到他的家人發現為止。
00:51
The police report and subsequent
investigation lead them to a house.
investigation lead them to a house.
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他們根據警方的報告及
隨後的調查找到了一間房子。
隨後的調查找到了一間房子。
00:57
This was the girl's bedroom.
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這就是那個「女孩」的臥室。
01:02
Nina Rodríguez was actually
a 24-year-old man
a 24-year-old man
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Nina Rodríguez 實際上
是一名 24 歲的男性，
是一名 24 歲的男性，
01:07
that used to do this with lots of kids.
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並且他曾經對許多
孩子做過相同的事。
孩子做過相同的事。
01:13
Micaela Ortega was 12 years old
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Micaela Ortega 當時只有 12 歲，
01:16
when she went to meet
her new Facebook friend,
her new Facebook friend,
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她準備去見一名
新結交的同齡臉書好友，
新結交的同齡臉書好友，
01:19
also 12.
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01:21
"Rochi de River," was her name.
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她的名字叫 Rochi de River。
01:26
She actually met Jonathan Luna,
who was 26 years old.
who was 26 years old.
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然而她實際上見到的
卻是 26 歲的 Jonathan Luna。
卻是 26 歲的 Jonathan Luna。
01:30
When they finally caught him,
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當他終於被捕時，
01:32
he confessed that he killed the girl
because she refused to have sex with him.
because she refused to have sex with him.
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他承認他殺死了那個女孩，
因為她拒絕與他發生性關係。
因為她拒絕與他發生性關係。
01:38
He had four Facebook profiles
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他有四個不同的臉書檔案，
01:41
and 1,700 women on his contact list;
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聯繫人列表裏有 1700 名女性，
01:47
90 percent of them
were under 13 years old.
were under 13 years old.
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其中 90% 都小於 13 歲。
01:52
These are two different
cases of "grooming":
cases of "grooming":
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下面是關於「網路誘童 (grooming)」
兩個不同的案例：
兩個不同的案例：
01:56
an adult contacts a kid
through the internet,
through the internet,
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一個成年人通過網路
聯繫上了一名兒童，
聯繫上了一名兒童，
02:00
and through manipulation or lying,
leads that kid into sexual territory --
leads that kid into sexual territory --
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隨後通過操縱或誘騙，
將溝通話題導向性方面──
將溝通話題導向性方面──
02:04
from talking about sex
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包括談論性、
02:06
to sharing private photos,
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分享私密照片、
02:08
recording the kid using a webcam
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通過網路攝像機拍攝孩子們、
02:10
or arranging an in-person meeting.
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甚至安排一次面對面的會面。
02:14
This is grooming.
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這就是所謂的網路誘童。
02:16
This is happening, and it's on the rise.
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這一切正在發生，且數量越來越多。
02:21
The question is: What are we going to do?
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問題在於：我們該怎麼辦？
02:24
Because, in the meantime, kids are alone.
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因為與此同時，孩子們孤立無援。
02:28
They finish dinner, go to their rooms,
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他們吃完晚餐，回到自己的房間，
02:30
close the door,
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關上房門，
02:32
get on their computer, their cell phones,
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打開電腦和手機，
02:35
and get into a bar,
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最終同意進入酒吧
02:38
into a club.
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或者俱樂部。
02:42
Think for one second
about what I've just said:
about what I've just said:
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想一想我剛才說的話：
02:46
they're in a place full of strangers
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他們正處於一個充滿陌生人
02:49
in an uninhibited environment.
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且不受約束的網路世界。
02:53
The internet broke physical boundaries.
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網路打破了物理上的邊界。
02:56
When we're alone in our bedroom
and we go online,
and we go online,
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當我們獨自一人
呆在臥室裏上網時，
呆在臥室裏上網時，
03:00
we're not really alone.
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我們並非真的獨自一人。
03:05
There are at least two reasons
why we're not taking care of this,
why we're not taking care of this,
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至少有兩個原因
使我們並不關心這一切，
使我們並不關心這一切，
03:10
or at least not in the right way.
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或者至少沒有正確地對待這一切。
03:13
First, we're sure that everything
that happens online is "virtual."
that happens online is "virtual."
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第一，我們確信一切發生在
網上的事情都是「虛擬」的。
網上的事情都是「虛擬」的。
03:18
In fact, we call it "the virtual world."
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事實上，我們甚至稱之為「虛擬世界」。
03:23
If you look it up in the dictionary,
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你可以去查查字典，
03:25
something virtual is something
that seems to exist
that seems to exist
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所謂「虛擬」就是指
一個事物看上去存在
一個事物看上去存在
03:28
but is not real.
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但實際上卻不是真實的。
03:31
And we use that word
to talk about the internet:
to talk about the internet:
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我們用「虛擬」來形容網路：
03:35
something not real.
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一個並不真實的事物。
03:38
And that's the problem with grooming.
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而這就是網路誘童的問題所在：
03:41
It is real.
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它是真實的。
03:43
Degenerate, perverted adults
use the internet to abuse boys and girls
use the internet to abuse boys and girls
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墮落、變態的成人利用
網路來猥褻少年和少女。
網路來猥褻少年和少女。
03:49
and take advantage of, among other things,
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除開别的作案條件，他們還利用了
03:51
the fact that the kids and their parents
think that what happens online
think that what happens online
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孩子和父母們的一個想法：
發生在網路上的事情並不是真實的。
03:55
doesn't actually happen.
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03:59
Several years ago,
some colleagues and I founded an NGO
some colleagues and I founded an NGO
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幾年前，我和一些同事
成立了一個非政府組織。
成立了一個非政府組織。
04:03
called "Argentina Cibersegura,"
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名叫「阿根廷網路安全」，
04:05
dedicated to raising awareness
about online safety.
about online safety.
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致力於提高人們的網路安全意識。
04:10
In 2013, we attended meetings
at the House of Legislature
at the House of Legislature
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在 2013 年，我們
參與了眾議院會議，
參與了眾議院會議，
04:14
to discuss a law about grooming.
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討論與網路誘童相關的法律。
04:19
I remember that a lot of people thought
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我還記得當時有很多人認為
04:21
that grooming was strictly a precursor
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網路誘童嚴格來講是誘騙者
04:24
to arranging an in-person meeting
with a kid to have sex with them.
with a kid to have sex with them.
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與兒童安排面對面見面
並發生性關係的前一步。
並發生性關係的前一步。
04:30
But they didn't think about what happened
to the kids who were exposed
to the kids who were exposed
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但他們從沒想到過
孩子們經歷了什麽：
孩子們經歷了什麽：
04:33
by talking about sex
with an adult without knowing it,
with an adult without knowing it,
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他們受到矇騙，與成人
談論性話題而身處險境；
談論性話題而身處險境；
04:37
or who shared intimate photos thinking
only another kid would see them,
only another kid would see them,
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或是分享私人照片，
以為只會有好友看到；
以為只會有好友看到；
04:41
or even worse,
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或是更糟的，
04:43
who had exposed themselves
using their web cam.
using their web cam.
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使用網路攝像機
暴露出自己的性器官。
暴露出自己的性器官。
04:46
Nobody considered that rape.
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沒有人認為這是強姦罪。
04:51
I'm sure lots of you find it odd to think
one person can abuse another
one person can abuse another
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我相信你們中的很多人都認為
不通過身體接觸就能
猥褻別人純屬無稽之談。
猥褻別人純屬無稽之談。
04:55
without physical contact.
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04:57
We're programmed to think that way.
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我們生來就是這麽想的。
05:01
I know, because I used to think that way.
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我清楚這一點，因為我也曾這麼認為。
05:03
I was just an IT security guy
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我曾經只是一個 IT 安全從業者，
05:07
until this happened to me.
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直到這一切發生在我身上。
05:11
At the end of 2011,
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2011 年末，
05:14
in a little town in Buenos Aires Province,
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在布宜諾斯艾利斯省內的一個小鎮上，
05:16
I heard about a case for the first time.
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我第一次聽說了此類案件。
05:20
After giving a talk,
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在一次演講之後，
05:23
I met the parents of an 11-year-old girl
who had been a victim of grooming.
who had been a victim of grooming.
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我遇見了一對父母，其 11 歲的
女兒是網路誘童的受害者。
女兒是網路誘童的受害者。
05:30
A man had manipulated her
into masturbating in front of her web cam,
into masturbating in front of her web cam,
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在一個男人的操縱下，
她在網路攝像機前
自慰，並被記錄下來。
自慰，並被記錄下來。
05:34
and recorded it.
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05:36
And the video was on several websites.
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隨後這段錄像被傳播開來。
05:40
That day, her parents asked us, in tears,
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在那天，她的父母哭著問我，
05:43
to tell them the magic formula
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讓我告訴他們一個魔法公式，
05:45
for how to delete those videos
from the internet.
from the internet.
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好讓他們從網路中刪除這些録像。
05:50
It broke my heart and changed me forever
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令我心碎，並永遠改變了我，
05:53
to be their last disappointment,
telling them it was too late:
telling them it was too late:
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我不得不令他們失望，
告訴他們已經太遲了。
告訴他們已經太遲了。
05:57
once content is online,
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一旦內容被上傳至網路，
06:00
we've already lost control.
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就已經失去控制了。
06:04
Since that day, I think about that girl
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從那天起，我能想到，那個女孩，
06:09
waking up in the morning,
having breakfast with her family,
having breakfast with her family,
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她在早上醒來後，便與看過
那段錄像的家人共進早餐；
那段錄像的家人共進早餐；
06:12
who had seen the video,
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06:15
and then walking to school, meeting
people that had seen her naked,
people that had seen her naked,
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隨後走去學校，路上
都是見過她裸體的人；
都是見過她裸體的人；
06:20
arriving to school, playing with
her friends, who had also seen her.
her friends, who had also seen her.
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到了學校後，便和同樣
看過錄像的朋友一起玩。
看過錄像的朋友一起玩。
06:26
That was her life.
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這就是她的生活。
06:29
Exposed.
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被徹底暴露。
06:33
Of course, nobody raped her body.
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當然，沒有人強姦她的肉體。
06:37
But hadn't her sexuality been abused?
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但她難道就沒有遭到性侵犯嗎？
06:42
We clearly use different standards
to measure physical and digital things.
to measure physical and digital things.
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很明顯，我們用不同的標準
來衡量現實和網路中的事物。
來衡量現實和網路中的事物。
06:49
And we get angry at social networks
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此外，我們還將怒火轉向社交網路，
06:51
because being angry with ourselves
is more painful and more true.
is more painful and more true.
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因為對我們自己的憤怒
會更加疼痛與真實。
會更加疼痛與真實。
06:56
And this brings us
to the second reason why
to the second reason why
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而這便引出了
06:58
we aren't paying proper
attention to this issue.
attention to this issue.
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我們對這個問題缺乏
關注的第二個原因。
關注的第二個原因。
07:02
We're convinced that kids
don't need our help,
don't need our help,
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我們自以為孩子們
不需要我們的幫助，
不需要我們的幫助，
07:06
that they "know everything"
about technology.
about technology.
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因為他們對於科技「無所不知」。
07:12
When I was a kid,
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當我還是個小孩的時候，
07:14
at one point, my parents started
letting me walk to school alone.
letting me walk to school alone.
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有一天，我的父母開始
讓我獨自走去學校。
讓我獨自走去學校。
07:19
After years of taking me by the hand
and walking me to school,
and walking me to school,
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在數年裏，都是他們牽著
我的手帶我走去學校，
我的手帶我走去學校，
07:24
one day they sat me down,
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但那天，他們讓我坐下，
07:26
gave me the house keys
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遞給我家裡的鑰匙，
07:27
and said, "Be very careful with these;
don't give them to anyone,
don't give them to anyone,
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然後對我說：「保管好
它們，別交給任何人，
它們，別交給任何人，
07:31
take the route we showed you,
be at home at the time we said,
be at home at the time we said,
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按我們指示的路線走，
按我們約定的時間回家，
按我們約定的時間回家，
07:36
cross at the corner,
and look both ways before you cross,
and look both ways before you cross,
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在拐角處過馬路，
過馬路前記得左右看看，
過馬路前記得左右看看，
07:38
and no matter what,
don't talk to strangers."
don't talk to strangers."
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並且無論如何都不要和陌生人說話。」
07:44
I knew everything about walking,
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我當然知道該如何走路，
07:47
and yet, there was a responsible adult
there taking care of me.
there taking care of me.
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但以前有負責任的大人在照顧我。
07:52
Knowing how to do something is one thing,
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知道如何做是一回事，
07:54
knowing how to take care
of yourself is another.
of yourself is another.
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而知道該如何照顧自己則是另一回事。
07:58
Imagine this situation:
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想像一下這種場景：
08:00
I'm 10 or 11 years old,
I wake up in the morning,
I wake up in the morning,
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我是一名 10 或 11 歲
的小孩，在早上醒來，
的小孩，在早上醒來，
08:03
my parents toss me the keys and say,
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我的父母直接拋給我
一串鑰匙然後說：
一串鑰匙然後說：
08:05
"Seba, now you can walk to school alone."
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「Seba，現在你可以一個人走去學校了。」
08:08
And when I come back late,
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而直到有一天我回家晚了，
08:11
they say, "No, you need to be home
at the time we said."
at the time we said."
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他們才說：「不行，你必須按時回家。」
08:16
And two weeks later,
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在兩週之後，
08:18
when it comes up,
they say, "You know what?
they say, "You know what?
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在他們突然想起來時，
才對我說：「你知道嗎，
才對我說：「你知道嗎，
08:21
You have to cross at the corner,
and look both ways before crossing."
and look both ways before crossing."
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你應該在拐角處過馬路，
並且過馬路要先左右看看。」
並且過馬路要先左右看看。」
08:26
And two years later, they say,
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甚至直到兩年之後，他們才說：
08:29
"And also, don't talk to strangers."
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「記住，不要和陌生人說話。」
08:34
It sounds absurd, right?
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這聽起來很荒唐，對吧？
08:38
We have the same absurd behavior
in relation to technology.
in relation to technology.
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然而在科技方面，我們
做了同樣荒唐的事。
做了同樣荒唐的事。
08:42
We give kids total access
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我們放心地讓孩子們接觸科技，
08:44
and we see if one day, sooner or later,
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因為我們相信總有一天
他們會學會如何照顧自己。
08:47
they learn how to take care of themselves.
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08:50
Knowing how to do something is one thing,
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知道如何做是一回事，
08:52
knowing how to take care
of yourself is another.
of yourself is another.
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而知道該如何照顧自己則是另一回事。
08:56
Along those same lines,
when we talk to parents,
when we talk to parents,
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同樣地，當我們和父母們聊天時，
08:59
they often say they don't care
about technology and social networks.
about technology and social networks.
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他們經常說他們不在乎
科技和社交網路。
科技和社交網路。
09:06
I always rejoin that by asking
if they care about their kids.
if they care about their kids.
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我會反駁問他們是否在乎自己的孩子。
09:09
As adults, being interested
or not in technology
or not in technology
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作為成年人，對科技關心與否
09:12
is the same as being interested
or not in our kids.
or not in our kids.
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和對孩子關心與否是一樣的。
09:15
The internet is part of their lives.
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網路是他們生活的一部分。
09:18
Technology forces us to rethink
the relationship between adults and kids.
the relationship between adults and kids.
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科技讓我們不得不重新審視
成人與兒童之間的關係。
成人與兒童之間的關係。
09:24
Education was always based
on two main concepts:
on two main concepts:
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教育總是基於兩個主要概念：
09:28
experience and knowledge.
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經驗和知識。
09:32
How do we teach our kids to be safe online
when we don't have either?
when we don't have either?
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如果這兩者我們都不具備，
又何談教孩子在網路上保護自己？
又何談教孩子在網路上保護自己？
09:40
Nowadays, we adults
have to guide our children
have to guide our children
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如今，我們成年人
必須引導我們的孩子
必須引導我們的孩子
09:42
through what is often for us
unfamiliar territory --
unfamiliar territory --
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穿越那些我們自己也
常常不瞭解的領域──
常常不瞭解的領域──
09:45
territory much more inviting for them.
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那些對孩子而言更為誘人的領域。
09:49
It's impossible to find an answer
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如果不敢嘗試那些
令我們不適的新事物、
令我們不適的新事物、
09:52
without doing new things --
things that make us uncomfortable,
things that make us uncomfortable,
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那些我們不熟悉的新事物，
09:55
things we're not used to.
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我們就永遠找不到答案。
09:59
A lot of you may think it's easy for me,
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你們也許都認為這對我很簡單，
10:02
because I'm relatively young.
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因為我比較年輕。
10:04
And it used to be that way.
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曾經確實是這樣。
10:07
Used to.
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曾經是。
10:10
Until last year,
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直到去年，
10:12
when I felt the weight
of my age on my shoulders
of my age on my shoulders
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當我第一次打開 Snapchat 時，
10:17
the first time I opened Snapchat.
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我感受到了我們這代人的重擔。
10:22
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
10:26
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
10:31
I didn't understand a thing!
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我一點也不明白這個軟體！
10:35
I found it unnecessary,
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我覺得它多餘、
10:37
useless, hard to understand;
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無用、晦澀難懂。
10:40
it looked like a camera!
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它看起來就像是個照相機！
10:42
It didn't have menu options!
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它甚至沒有菜單選項！
10:46
It was the first time I felt the gap
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這是我第一次感受到代溝，
10:49
that sometimes exists
between kids and adults.
between kids and adults.
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有時存在於孩子與成人間的代溝。
10:53
But it was also an opportunity
to do the right thing,
to do the right thing,
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但這也是一個機會，
讓我去做該做的事：
讓我去做該做的事：
10:57
to leave my comfort zone, to force myself.
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去強迫我離開自己的心理舒適區。
11:00
I never thought I'd ever use Snapchat,
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我從不認為我會去使用 Snapchat，
11:04
but then I asked my teenage cousin
to show me how to use it.
to show me how to use it.
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但隨後我請十幾歲的表妹
教我該如何使用它。
教我該如何使用它。
11:10
I also asked why she used it.
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我也問過她為什麼使用這款軟體。
11:12
What was fun about it?
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它有什麼樂趣？
11:15
We had a really nice talk.
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這是一次非常愉快的對話。
11:17
She showed me her Snapchat,
she told me things,
she told me things,
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她展示了她的 Snapchat，
教會了我很多東西，
教會了我很多東西，
11:20
we got closer, we laughed.
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我們變得更親密了，
我們一同歡笑。
我們一同歡笑。
11:24
Today, I use it.
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如今，我也在用。
11:26
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
11:28
I don't know if I do it right,
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我不知道我做得對不對，
11:30
but the most important thing
is that I know it and I understand it.
is that I know it and I understand it.
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但更重要的是，
我開始認識它，並理解它。
我開始認識它，並理解它。
11:36
The key was to overcome the initial shock
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關鍵在於要克服我們
最初感到的不適應
最初感到的不適應
11:40
and do something new.
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並去嘗試新事物。
11:43
Something new.
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新的事物。
11:45
Today, we have the chance
to create new conversations.
to create new conversations.
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如今，我們有機會去進行新的討論。
11:49
What's the last app you downloaded?
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你最近下載了什麼手機軟體？
11:51
Which social network do you use
to contact your friends?
to contact your friends?
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你利用哪個社交軟體
來聯繫你的朋友？
來聯繫你的朋友？
11:55
What kind of information do you share?
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你會分享哪些信息？
11:58
Have you ever been
approached by strangers?
approached by strangers?
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你是否被陌生人主動接觸過？
12:02
Could we have these conversations
between kids and adults?
between kids and adults?
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我們能夠在成人與孩子
之間展開這種討論嗎？
之間展開這種討論嗎？
12:07
We have to force ourselves
to do it. All of us.
to do it. All of us.
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我們必須逼迫自己這麼做。
我們所有人。
我們所有人。
12:10
Today, lots of kids are listening to us.
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如今，很多孩子都在傾聽我們的話語。
12:16
Sometimes when we go
to schools to give our talks,
to schools to give our talks,
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有時，當我們去學校演講時，
12:19
or through social networks,
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或是在社交網路上，
12:21
kids ask or tell us things
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孩子們會問我們問題，
或是告訴我們一些
或是告訴我們一些
12:23
they haven't told
their parents or their teachers.
their parents or their teachers.
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他們沒有和父母或是老師說過的事情。
12:27
They tell us -- they don't even know us.
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他們告訴我們，
而他們甚至不認識我們。
而他們甚至不認識我們。
12:32
Those kids need to know
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孩子們必須知道
12:36
what the risks of being online are,
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網路給他們帶來的風險，
12:40
how to take care of themselves,
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以及他們該如何照顧自己。
12:41
but also that, fundamentally,
as with almost everything else,
as with almost everything else,
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並且，從根本上說，一如既往，
12:45
kids can learn this from any adult.
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孩子們可以從任何大人身上學到這些。
12:51
Online safety needs to be
a conversation topic
a conversation topic
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網路安全必須成為
一個國家裏每個家庭
和課堂都重視的話題。
和課堂都重視的話題。
12:55
in every house and every
classroom in the country.
classroom in the country.
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12:59
We did a survey this year that showed
that 15 percent of schools said
that 15 percent of schools said
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我們今年的一項調查表明，
有 15% 的學校表示
有 15% 的學校表示
13:04
they knew of cases of grooming
in their school.
in their school.
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該校存在網路誘童的案例。
13:07
And this number is growing.
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並且這一數字正在增長。
13:11
Technology changed
every aspect of our life,
every aspect of our life,
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科技改變了我們生活的方方面面，
13:15
including the risks we face
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包括我們所面對的風險，
13:18
and how we take care of ourselves.
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以及我們該如何照顧自己。
13:20
Grooming shows us this
in the most painful way:
in the most painful way:
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網路誘童以最痛心的方式
讓我們看到這一點：
讓我們看到這一點：
13:25
by involving our kids.
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它傷害了我們的孩子。
13:28
Are we going to do something
to avoid this?
to avoid this?
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我們是否應該努力避免這類事件？
13:32
The solution starts
with something as easy as:
with something as easy as:
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解決這類問題的第一步其實很簡單：
13:36
talking about it.
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去討論它。
13:37
Thank you.
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謝謝。
13:38
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sebastián Bortnik - Information security specialistSebastián Bortnik's work is focused on preventing cyber attacks.
Why you should listen
Sebastián Bortnik is an information security specialist with more than ten years of work experience in the field. He has been working on research and education on cyber attacks since the beginning of his career. He's currently head of research for Onapsis, a company dedicated to protecting ERP and business-critical applications in big companies. Previously, he led a research and technology team for an antivirus company in Latin America focused on malware analysis and cyber attacks research.
Bortnik is one of the founding members of a non-profit organization in Argentina, Argentina Cibersegura, which is focused on raising awareness within the community on how to prevent cyber attacks. As its leader, he has helped create a network with more than 200 volunteers around the country that teach how to use technologies in a safer way to thousands of kids every year.
Bortnik has written several articles and delivered many talks at different conferences around the world. He is passionate about education and believes that everybody needs to understand the impact technology has on our lives and safety.
(Photo: Monstruo Estudio)
Sebastián Bortnik | Speaker | TED.com