TED@BCG Toronto
Vinay Shandal: How conscious investors can turn up the heat and make companies change
維納伊山德: 有意識的投資者如何施壓使公司改變
Filmed:
Readability: 4.4
1,652,752 views
這場演說既有趣，又讓人警惕。講者維納伊山德分享了世界上最頂尖的行動派投資者的故事，說明個人和機構要如何向他們學習，對公司施壓，來帶動正面的改變。「你有權要求管理你的錢的方式要和你的價值觀一致。」山德說：「所以，要發聲，並且相信發聲是重要的。」
Vinay Shandal - Investment agitator
BCG's Vinay Shandal is passionate about the role of capital in creating impact. Full bio
BCG's Vinay Shandal is passionate about the role of capital in creating impact. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
We love to engage
on the issues of the day.
on the issues of the day.
0
1047
3231
我們熱愛參與每日熱門議題。
我們很熱愛。
我們對新聞發表意見，
我們對新聞發表意見，
00:16
We love it.
1
4302
1158
00:17
We comment on the news,
2
5484
1458
00:18
we post our views on social media,
3
6966
2343
我們在社交媒體上
張貼我們的看法，
張貼我們的看法，
00:21
we march, we protest ...
4
9333
2738
我們遊行，我們抗議……
00:24
But who among us is working on solutions,
5
12095
3755
但我們當中有誰在努力找解決方案，
00:27
big solutions to big issues,
6
15874
2460
大議題的大解決方案，
00:30
like gun violence,
7
18358
1912
像是槍枝暴力、
00:32
mistreatment of workers,
8
20294
1735
對工人的不當對待、
00:34
flood, famine, drought?
9
22053
1709
食物、饑荒、乾旱？
00:35
Who is on it?
10
23786
2521
誰在處理它？
00:38
Boom!
11
26331
1163
砰！
00:40
These guys.
12
28781
1300
這些人。
00:42
(Laughter)
13
30105
2013
（笑聲）
00:44
What? You were hoping for Peter Parker?
14
32142
2696
怎樣？不然你們期待看到
彼得帕克（蜘蛛人）嗎？
彼得帕克（蜘蛛人）嗎？
00:46
The Avengers?
15
34862
1428
復仇者聯盟？
00:48
You don't expect this beacon of diversity,
16
36314
2748
你們不期望這種多樣性的指引，
00:51
these good-looking, nicely dressed dudes
just oozing charisma to solve the issues?
just oozing charisma to solve the issues?
17
39086
6315
這些長相好看穿著也好看的傢伙，
散發魅力來解決這些議題？
00:57
Well good, because they're actually
not going to solve the issues.
not going to solve the issues.
18
45425
3151
嗯，很好，因為實際上
他們並不會解決議題。
他們並不會解決議題。
01:00
But before you dismiss them,
19
48600
3344
但在你把他們打發掉之前，
01:03
let me say, they're not going
to solve the issues,
to solve the issues,
20
51968
2400
讓我說句話，他們不會解決議題，
但他們會讓我們看到要怎麼做。
01:06
but they will show us how.
21
54392
2224
01:09
So who are they?
22
57100
1742
所以，他們是誰？
01:10
They're activist investors:
23
58866
1467
他們是行動派投資者：
01:12
Carl Icahn, Dan Loeb,
Paul Singer, Barry Rosenstein.
Paul Singer, Barry Rosenstein.
24
60950
5917
卡爾伊坎、丹勒布、
保羅辛格、貝瑞羅森斯坦。
01:18
These are the modern-day
OGs of Wall Street.
OGs of Wall Street.
25
66891
3583
他們是現代的華爾街老前輩。
（笑聲）這些可怕的傢伙。
01:22
(Laughter)
26
70498
1053
01:23
These are scary dudes.
27
71575
1162
01:24
I don't mean Green Goblin scary.
28
72761
1655
不是綠惡魔（蜘蛛人反派）的
那種可怕。是真的可怕。
那種可怕。是真的可怕。
01:26
I mean real scary.
29
74440
2215
01:29
The fear they strike in the hearts
of a company's CEO and board
of a company's CEO and board
30
77169
4645
當他們進入一間公司的股份，
會讓該公司的執行長
和董事發自內心感到恐懼，
和董事發自內心感到恐懼，
01:33
when they enter its stock
31
81838
1859
01:35
is the same fear you feel
when you hear a bear outside your tent,
when you hear a bear outside your tent,
32
83721
4854
有種情境也會產生同樣的恐懼：
就是你得知你的帳篷外面有隻熊，
01:40
and it's dark,
33
88599
1243
且外面很黑，
01:41
and you're sitting there
with a mouthful of Doritos --
with a mouthful of Doritos --
34
89866
2532
且你還滿口都是多力多滋
坐在那裡時——
坐在那裡時——
01:44
(Laughter)
35
92422
1061
（笑聲）
01:45
that just moments ago,
36
93507
1154
沒多久之前，你溜出帳篷，
01:46
you had snuck out of the tent
to pull down from the bear hang,
to pull down from the bear hang,
37
94685
2968
因為想吃零食而拿了包多力多滋。
01:49
because you had the munchies.
38
97677
1398
那種恐懼。
01:51
That fear.
39
99099
1471
01:53
And in that moment, you are praying,
40
101245
1718
在那一刻，你在祈禱：
01:54
"Oh Lord, please let this bear
be passing through."
be passing through."
41
102987
3386
「喔，主啊，希望這隻熊只是路過。」
01:58
That bear is not passing through!
42
106397
2832
那隻熊並不是路過！
02:01
That bear made a detour for you.
43
109253
2764
那隻熊為了你專程繞路。
02:04
Bears like Doritos!
44
112041
2001
熊很愛多力多滋！
02:06
(Laughter)
45
114066
1132
（笑聲）
02:07
Activists like money.
46
115222
2304
行動派喜歡錢。
02:09
Some activists also like Doritos,
but they definitely want money.
but they definitely want money.
47
117550
5964
有些行動派也愛多力多滋，
但他們肯定是想要錢的。
02:16
And the way they make money,
the way they create value,
the way they create value,
48
124313
4334
而他們賺錢的方式，
他們創造價值的方式，
他們創造價值的方式，
02:20
is by getting management of corporations
49
128671
2598
是讓企業的管理階層
02:23
to make changes.
50
131293
1616
去做改變。
02:26
Now, some will argue
that the changes they create,
that the changes they create,
51
134005
3122
有些人可能會主張，
他們所創造的改變，
他們所創造的改變，
02:29
the value they create,
is too short-term in nature.
is too short-term in nature.
52
137151
2638
他們所創造的價值，
在本質上太短期了。
在本質上太短期了。
02:32
And others will say the tactics
they use are egregious.
they use are egregious.
53
140349
3757
其他人則會說，
他們用的戰略很過份。
他們用的戰略很過份。
02:36
I agree.
54
144130
1414
我同意。
02:37
Long, drawn-out lawsuits,
55
145568
1712
拖很久的漫長法律訴訟，
02:39
public smear campaigns --
56
147304
1484
公開抹黑的宣傳活動——
02:40
there is no need for that.
57
148812
2340
這實在沒有必要。
02:43
But I must say, there's
a small handful of activists,
a small handful of activists,
58
151741
3153
但我必須要說，有一小群行動派，
02:46
very small,
59
154918
1296
非常小群，
02:48
that go to great lengths
to be constructive and collaborative.
to be constructive and collaborative.
60
156238
2936
不遺餘力去做到
建設性和同心協力。
建設性和同心協力。
整體來說，我們必須要
歸功給應得功勞的人。
歸功給應得功勞的人。
02:51
And overall, we have to give credit
where credit is due.
where credit is due.
61
159198
2722
02:53
As a group, they have managed
to catalyze large-scale change
to catalyze large-scale change
62
161944
3846
以群體來說，他們有辦法
在大企業中促進大規模的改變，
02:57
in large corporations,
63
165814
1221
02:59
and that's no small feat.
64
167059
2219
那可不是小功而已。
03:02
Now, imagine a world
65
170400
1424
想像一個世界，
03:04
where all investors were working
with management to make change,
with management to make change,
66
172888
3060
在那裡，所有投資者都
和管理層級合作創造改變，
和管理層級合作創造改變，
03:07
not just to make more money,
67
175972
1844
不只是賺更多錢，
03:10
but to improve
the environment and society.
the environment and society.
68
178981
2943
還要改善環境和社會。
03:13
Imagine what a greener
and better world this would be.
and better world this would be.
69
181948
4664
想像一下，那會是個
多麼綠意盎然、多麼棒的世界。
多麼綠意盎然、多麼棒的世界。
03:18
Now, why? Why would an investor bother?
70
186636
1952
那，為什麼？
投資者為什麼要費心？
投資者為什麼要費心？
03:20
And at first, blush I'm with you:
Why would an investor care?
Why would an investor care?
71
188612
2924
一開始，我和你們一樣臉紅：
投資者為何在乎？
投資者為何在乎？
因為如果能處理好
ESG 的議題——
ESG 的議題——
03:23
Because if doing well on ESG issues --
72
191560
2343
03:25
environmental, social
and governance issues --
and governance issues --
73
193927
2785
環境、社會、治理的議題——
03:28
was just an act of good
corporate citizenship,
corporate citizenship,
74
196736
2665
那只是一種好的企業公民行為而已，
03:32
then I agree, investors would not care.
75
200441
1909
那麼我同意投資者不會在乎。
可是，有好消息，
可是，有好消息，
03:34
But the good news,
76
202374
1443
03:35
and perhaps the saving grace
for our collective futures,
for our collective futures,
77
203841
3178
也許對我們集體的未來而言
是可補償缺點的優點，
是可補償缺點的優點，
03:39
is that it's so much more than
an act of good corporate citizenship.
an act of good corporate citizenship.
78
207043
3714
那就是它遠遠超過只是
一種好的企業公民行為。
一種好的企業公民行為。
03:43
It's good business.
79
211376
1369
它是好的生意。
03:45
There's now enough evidence
that shows a clear correlation
that shows a clear correlation
80
213383
2760
現在有足夠的證據可以顯示，
在 ESG 表現和財務表現
之間有明確的相關性。
之間有明確的相關性。
03:48
between ESG performance
and financial performance.
and financial performance.
81
216167
3206
03:51
Companies that do good
for the environment and society
for the environment and society
82
219397
3207
在環境和社會上做得很好的公司，
03:54
also do well financially.
83
222628
1979
在財務上也會很出色。
03:57
And some of the best
companies are catching on.
companies are catching on.
84
225362
2445
一些最好的公司開始理解到這一點。
03:59
Like Adidas:
85
227831
1331
比如愛迪達：
04:01
Adidas is cleaning up the ocean
and making money in the process.
and making money in the process.
86
229186
3922
愛迪達在清理海洋，
並在過程中賺錢。
並在過程中賺錢。
04:05
Adidas teamed up with an organization
called Parley for the Oceans.
called Parley for the Oceans.
87
233132
4200
愛迪達和海洋會議
（Parley for the Oceans）組織合作。
（Parley for the Oceans）組織合作。
04:09
Parley goes out and collects
plastic waste from the ocean.
plastic waste from the ocean.
88
237356
3537
該組織會實際行動，
收回在海洋上的塑膠廢物。
收回在海洋上的塑膠廢物。
04:12
Adidas uses the plastic waste
to make shoes.
to make shoes.
89
240917
2468
愛迪達則用塑膠廢物來製作鞋子。
04:15
Shoes made with plastic from the ocean:
90
243409
2607
用海洋塑膠做成的鞋子：
04:18
good for the environment
and good for business.
and good for business.
91
246040
2731
對環境很好，對事業也很好。
04:21
Because if you know that rapidly growing
consumer segment known as hipsters --
consumer segment known as hipsters --
92
249210
3897
因為如果你知道有一種快速成長的
客戶群叫做「文青 (hipsters)」——
客戶群叫做「文青 (hipsters)」——
04:25
and I know you know hipsters --
93
253721
1642
我知道你們都知道文青——
04:27
then you know that a hipster faced with
the choice between a no-name shoe
the choice between a no-name shoe
94
255387
3613
那麼你們就知道，當文青要選擇
非名牌的鞋子或是
用海洋塑膠製成的愛迪達鞋子，
用海洋塑膠製成的愛迪達鞋子，
04:31
and an Adidas made with
plastic from the ocean
plastic from the ocean
95
259024
2286
04:33
will pick the Adidas every day
of the week and twice on Sunday,
of the week and twice on Sunday,
96
261334
3974
他們會選擇每天穿愛迪達，
星期日還要穿兩次，
星期日還要穿兩次，
04:37
and then walk around like it's no big deal
97
265332
2413
四處走動，好像這雙鞋
也沒什麼大不了的，
也沒什麼大不了的，
04:39
but look for every opportunity
to talk about them.
to talk about them.
98
267769
3147
卻完全不錯失任何可以
談論這雙鞋的機會。
談論這雙鞋的機會。
04:43
Like, in an Uber Pool.
99
271605
1810
比如，在 Uber Pool 共乘時。
04:45
(Laughter)
100
273439
1046
（笑聲）
04:46
"Hey, I noticed you looking at my feet."
101
274509
2611
「嘿，我注意到
你一直在看我的腳。」
你一直在看我的腳。」
04:49
"What? Dude, no, I'm just making slides.
I'm a consultant. I make slides.
I'm a consultant. I make slides.
102
277144
4166
「什麼？老兄，沒有，
我只是在做投影片。
我只是在做投影片。
我是顧問，我做投影片，
我沒有在看——」
我沒有在看——」
04:53
I'm making PowerPoint slides,
I'm not looking --"
I'm not looking --"
103
281334
2350
「不，沒關係。
04:55
"No, it's fine.
104
283708
1168
我能了解你會想看。
04:56
I get why you'd be looking.
105
284900
1403
我鞋子上的塑膠一定讓你覺得礙眼。
04:58
The plastic on my shoe
must be bothering you.
must be bothering you.
106
286327
2104
讓我用所有剩下的共乘時間
來跟你談談它吧。
來跟你談談它吧。
05:00
Well, let me talk about it
for the rest of this ride.
for the rest of this ride.
107
288455
2528
我鞋子上的塑膠是來自海洋，
05:03
You see, the plastic on my shoe
is from the ocean,
is from the ocean,
108
291007
2410
05:05
on my feet, not in your fish,
109
293441
2151
在我的腳上，
不是在你吃的魚的肚子裡，
不是在你吃的魚的肚子裡，
05:07
being walked on, not being munched on.
110
295616
2156
是拿來穿的，不是拿來咀嚼的。
05:09
Happy feet. Happy fish. Happy ocean.
111
297796
2523
開心的腳。開心的魚。
開心的海洋。
開心的海洋。
05:12
Doing my part. I got eco-shoes.
I got eco-shoes.
I got eco-shoes.
112
300343
2343
我盡我的本份。
我買環保鞋。我買環保鞋。
我買環保鞋。我買環保鞋。
05:14
You need some eco-shoes?"
113
302710
1829
你需要環保鞋嗎？」
05:16
And so on, just cornering him.
We've all been there.
We've all been there.
114
304563
2464
諸如此類，一直嚕他。
我們都遇過這種事。
我們都遇過這種事。
「嘿，把你的手機傳給我。
我要給你一個優惠碼。
我要給你一個優惠碼。
05:19
"Hey, pass me your cell phone.
I'll give you a discount code.
I'll give you a discount code.
115
307051
2874
讓我給你優惠碼。」
05:21
Let me give you a discount code."
116
309949
1607
我們都遇過——
05:23
We've all been --
117
311580
1151
05:24
Folks, I have jumped out
of moving Uber Pools.
of moving Uber Pools.
118
312755
2148
我曾從行駛中的 Uber Pools
共乘車上跳車過。
共乘車上跳車過。
05:26
(Laughter)
119
314927
1105
（笑聲）
05:28
Just, moving, highway, I'm out. I'm out.
120
316056
2622
就，行駛中，高速公路，
我要下車了。我要下車了。
我要下車了。我要下車了。
05:32
But we've got to forgive the hipsters,
we need to love the hipsters.
we need to love the hipsters.
121
320567
3287
但，我們得要原諒文青。
我們得要愛文青。
我們得要愛文青。
我們需要文青，我們需要
像愛迪達這樣的公司，
像愛迪達這樣的公司，
05:35
We need hipsters,
and we need companies like Adidas,
and we need companies like Adidas,
122
323878
2489
05:38
and what we need most is for investors
to convince other companies
to convince other companies
123
326391
3500
我們最需要投資者
能夠說服其他公司
能夠說服其他公司
05:41
to behave like Adidas.
124
329915
1612
做出像愛迪達這樣的行為。
05:43
And herein lies the challenge.
125
331551
1707
挑戰的地方就在這裡了。
05:45
There's a growing group of investors,
call them "conscious investors."
call them "conscious investors."
126
333969
3894
有一種投資者叫「有意識的投資者」，
人數越來越多。
05:49
Conscious investors care about ESG issues.
127
337887
2770
有意識的投資者在乎 ESG 議題。
05:53
And they talk a lot about
engaging management on ESG issues.
engaging management on ESG issues.
128
341791
4187
他們常會談論要讓
管理階層參與 ESG 議題。
管理階層參與 ESG 議題。
05:58
But they don't actually get
management to make changes
management to make changes
129
346002
2645
但他們並不會真的讓管理階層做出
06:00
that will improve
the environment and society.
the environment and society.
130
348671
2784
能夠改善環境和社會的改變。
06:04
And this is where conscious investors
can take a page from the playbook
can take a page from the playbook
131
352078
3576
這就是有意識的投資者可以
向行動派投資者學習的地方了，
06:07
of the activist investors,
132
355678
1931
06:09
because the activist investors have no
issues getting management to make changes.
issues getting management to make changes.
133
357633
3917
因為要讓管理階層做出改變，
對行動派投資者來說並不是問題。
對行動派投資者來說並不是問題。
06:13
They have no issues turning up the heat.
134
361574
2526
要施壓完全不成問題。
06:16
Take Paul Singer.
135
364124
1198
比如保羅辛格。
06:17
He's an old-school Wall Street OG,
136
365346
2343
他是老派的華爾街前輩，
06:19
now in his 70s, loves Doritos,
loves making money.
loves making money.
137
367713
3708
現在七十多歲了，
愛吃多力多滋，愛賺錢。
愛吃多力多滋，愛賺錢。
06:24
Argentina owed Paul 600 million dollars
138
372474
3407
阿根廷欠保羅六億美金，
06:27
and would not pay.
139
375905
1911
不願意付錢。
06:30
Big mistake.
140
378386
1166
大錯特錯。
06:31
You can't take money from an OG
and not pay it back.
and not pay it back.
141
379576
3411
你不能拿了前輩的錢卻不還錢。
06:35
Paul went to war with Argentina.
142
383425
2447
保羅和阿根廷開戰。
06:37
I am not inventing.
143
385896
2094
我沒無中生有。
06:40
This is big. This was huge.
144
388014
1569
這是件大事，非常大。
06:41
This was bigger than Tyson vs Holyfield,
145
389607
2639
超越泰森和霍利菲爾德的對決，
06:44
Ali vs Foreman.
146
392270
1367
阿里和福爾曼的對決。
06:45
This was man vs country.
147
393661
2041
這是一個人和一個國家的對決。
06:47
Paul Singer started going around the world
trying to seize up Argentinian assets.
trying to seize up Argentinian assets.
148
395726
4747
保羅辛格開始遊走全世界，
試圖扣押阿根廷的資產。
06:52
At one point, he tried to seize
an Argentinian navy vessel
an Argentinian navy vessel
149
400497
4665
他一度試圖扣押
阿根廷在迦納海岸的海軍船艦。
06:57
off the coast of Ghana.
150
405186
1254
06:58
He tried to take over a 350-foot ship
151
406464
3436
他試圖接管一艘 350 英呎的船艦，
07:01
while big navy officers
with big guns were on the ship.
with big guns were on the ship.
152
409924
3918
船艦上還有武裝的重要海軍軍官。
07:05
He got the police in Ghana
to show up with a crane
to show up with a crane
153
413866
3534
他讓迦納的警方帶著
一台起重機一起現身，
一台起重機一起現身，
07:09
and threaten to board the ship,
154
417424
1479
威脅要登上船艦，
07:10
and it wasn't until
the navy officers drew their weapons
the navy officers drew their weapons
155
418927
4512
直到海軍軍官亮出武器，
07:15
that they called off the operation.
156
423463
1807
他們才取消行動。
07:17
That's what I call turning up the heat.
157
425770
2588
這就是我所謂的施壓。
07:20
Now, you may say
158
428382
1217
你們可能會說，
07:22
Paul lost the battle.
159
430479
2294
保羅輸了這場仗。
07:24
And I'll say, Paul won the war,
160
432797
1571
我會說，保羅贏了戰爭，
07:26
because Paul didn't get paid one time,
161
434392
1840
因為保羅拿回的錢不是一倍，
07:28
he got paid 20 times
his original investment.
his original investment.
162
436256
3124
是他最初投資的二十倍。
接著，還有貝瑞羅森斯坦。
07:32
Then you have Barry Rosenstein.
163
440831
1522
07:34
His fund, Jana Partners,
164
442377
1289
他的基金，JANA Partners，
07:35
started stealth-mode buying up
stock in Whole Foods,
stock in Whole Foods,
165
443690
2455
開始偷偷摸模式，
買進所有全食超市股票，
買進所有全食超市股票，
07:38
at a time when Whole Foods was struggling.
166
446169
2403
當時全食超市經營得很辛苦。
07:40
They got to eight percent, came out,
167
448596
1900
他們得到了 8%，公開表態，
07:42
and pushed Whole Foods
to sell itself to Amazon,
to sell itself to Amazon,
168
450520
2756
逼迫全食超市
把它自己賣給亞馬遜，
把它自己賣給亞馬遜，
07:45
and not because Barry wanted
same-day delivery of his organic Doritos.
same-day delivery of his organic Doritos.
169
453300
4049
並不是因為貝瑞希望他的
有機多力多滋當能日配送。
有機多力多滋當能日配送。
07:49
(Laughter)
170
457373
1031
（笑聲）
07:50
He wanted to make some money.
171
458998
1986
他想要的是賺錢。
07:53
Now, the CEO of Whole Foods,
John Mackey, and the board
John Mackey, and the board
172
461008
2790
全食超市的執行長
約翰麥基以及董事會
約翰麥基以及董事會
07:55
did not want to sell themselves to Amazon,
173
463822
4208
並不想要把他們自己賣給亞馬遜，
08:00
because that would be
the prime example of selling out.
the prime example of selling out.
174
468054
2693
因為這就是出售企業的例子。
08:03
But in the end, they caved.
175
471275
2077
但最終，他們屈服了。
08:05
Why? Because Barry turned up the heat,
176
473879
2578
為什麼？因為貝瑞施壓，
08:08
and he made 300 million
dollars in the process.
dollars in the process.
177
476481
2847
過程中，他賺了三億美元。
08:11
And he did not leave
a very nice impression on John.
a very nice impression on John.
178
479777
3109
他並沒有留給約翰很好的印象。
08:15
You're not going to see
John and Barry just hugging it out
John and Barry just hugging it out
179
483605
2758
你們不會看到約翰和貝瑞
在全食超市的咖啡廳
在全食超市的咖啡廳
08:18
at the Whole Foods café.
180
486387
1271
相互擁抱一下就沒事了。
08:20
Let's take a very different example now:
181
488765
2000
現在，咱們來舉個
很不一樣的例子：
很不一樣的例子：
08:23
the Chicago Teachers' Pension Fund,
182
491524
2496
芝加哥教師養老基金，
08:26
a $10 billion conscious investor.
183
494829
2529
這個有意識的投資者
擁有一百億美金。
擁有一百億美金。
08:29
They recently came out hard
against private prisons in the US,
against private prisons in the US,
184
497915
2931
他們最近在美國嚴厲打擊私人監獄，
08:32
and good for them.
185
500870
1365
這對他們很好。
08:34
As a new parent, I tell you,
I am troubled by devastating images
I am troubled by devastating images
186
502259
3065
讓我這位新手家長
告訴各位，我很受不了
告訴各位，我很受不了
一種毀滅性的影像：
08:37
of young children being ripped
out of the arms of their parents
out of the arms of their parents
187
505348
3505
在美國邊境，小孩子被從
父母的懷抱中強行拉開，
父母的懷抱中強行拉開，
08:40
at the US border
188
508877
1184
08:42
and being placed in private
detention facilities that did too little
detention facilities that did too little
189
510085
3486
被送到私人收容機構，
這些機構幾乎沒有做什麼
這些機構幾乎沒有做什麼
08:45
to help the kids maintain
contact with their parents.
contact with their parents.
190
513595
3157
來協助這些孩子
維持和父母的聯絡。
維持和父母的聯絡。
08:49
So what did the Chicago teachers do?
191
517600
1760
所以，芝加哥的教師怎麼做？
08:52
Did they get management to make changes?
192
520459
2796
他們有讓管理階層做出改變嗎？
08:55
Did they turn up the heat?
193
523279
1265
他們有施壓嗎？
08:56
Did they look management
in the eye and say,
in the eye and say,
194
524568
2119
他們有沒有看著管理階層的眼睛，
說：「事業不是這樣經營的。
08:58
"This is no way to run a business.
195
526711
1678
09:01
There's a different way
to do things. Let me show you"?
to do things. Let me show you"?
196
529044
2625
有一種不同的做事方式。
讓我告訴你」？
讓我告訴你」？
09:03
No. They just sold their stock.
197
531693
3430
沒有，他們只是售出他們的股票。
09:07
Selling did nothing.
198
535972
1456
售出是沒有效果的。
09:09
It's not like management
woke up the next day
woke up the next day
199
537452
2377
管理階層並不會
在隔天早上起床時，
在隔天早上起床時，
09:11
and had an epiphany and said,
200
539853
1453
突然頓悟並說：
「天，教師們售出了他們的股票。
我們得要對孩子好一點。」
我們得要對孩子好一點。」
09:13
"Gosh, the teachers sold their stock.
We'd better be nice to the kids."
We'd better be nice to the kids."
201
541330
3496
不，沒有發生這種事。
09:16
No. That didn't happen.
202
544850
1412
09:18
And despite a decade
of several high-profile divestitures
of several high-profile divestitures
203
546971
3981
儘管在美國，私人監獄
股票在十年間
股票在十年間
出現數次高調的剝奪財產事件，
09:22
in private prison stock in the US,
204
550976
1784
09:24
the stock has continued to climb.
205
552784
1705
股票仍然持續攀升。
09:26
The stock over that same period
has outperformed the market.
has outperformed the market.
206
554513
4087
同時段的股票勝過了市場。
09:31
And the biggest issue is,
207
559941
1256
最大的議題是，
09:33
we went from a set of conscious
investors owning the stock
investors owning the stock
208
561221
3597
股票本來是在一群
有意識的投資者手上，
有意識的投資者手上，
09:36
to it potentially being owned by investors
who don't care about these issues
who don't care about these issues
209
564842
4766
可能變到完全不在乎
這些議題的投資者手上，
這些議題的投資者手上，
09:41
and don't care what you think
about these issues.
about these issues.
210
569632
2323
他們也不在乎
你對這些議題的看法。
你對這些議題的看法。
09:44
And this is my issue
with conscious investors.
with conscious investors.
211
572423
2571
這就是我認為有意識的
投資者的問題所在。
投資者的問題所在。
09:47
Their MO is to divest
212
575018
2133
他們的主要目標是要撤資
09:49
or divert money into ESG-focused funds.
213
577175
2650
或將錢轉移到
以 ESG 為中心的基金。
以 ESG 為中心的基金。
09:52
You can't divest your way
to a greener world.
to a greener world.
214
580887
3303
你不能光靠撤資就創造出
更綠化的世界。
更綠化的世界。
09:57
You can divest your way
to a greener portfolio,
to a greener portfolio,
215
585261
2318
你可以靠撤資來達成
更綠化的投資組合，
更綠化的投資組合，
09:59
not to a greener world.
216
587603
1619
但更綠化的世界是不可能的。
10:02
So what's it going to take?
217
590722
1333
那，要怎樣才能做到？
怎樣才能出奇招，
怎樣才能出奇招，
10:04
What's it going to take
to flip the script,
to flip the script,
218
592079
2051
讓有意識的投資者
從撤資轉為參與，
從撤資轉為參與，
10:06
to get conscious investors to go
from divesting to engaging,
from divesting to engaging,
219
594154
2852
從談論參與轉為
真正和管理階層合作，
真正和管理階層合作，
10:09
to go from talking about engaging
to actually working with management
to actually working with management
220
597030
3478
10:12
to make changes that will improve
their ESG performance?
their ESG performance?
221
600532
4025
來做出改變，改善他們的 ESG 表現？
因為怎麼看他們都
應該或能夠這麼做。
應該或能夠這麼做。
10:17
Because there's a lot suggesting
they should and they could.
they should and they could.
222
605478
2898
他們應該這麼做，因為 ESG 表現
10:20
They should, given the clear correlation
between ESG performance
between ESG performance
223
608400
3073
和財務表現之間有明確的相關性。
10:23
and financial performance.
224
611497
1425
10:25
They could because the activists
have shown us they could.
have shown us they could.
225
613877
2835
他們能夠這麼做，因為行動派
已經證明他們做得到。
已經證明他們做得到。
10:29
A shareholder can drive
change in a company.
change in a company.
226
617529
2164
股東能夠帶動公司的改變。
差別在於，保羅和貝瑞
是為了賺錢而做。
是為了賺錢而做。
10:31
The difference is, Paul and Barry
do what they do to make money.
do what they do to make money.
227
619717
3930
10:36
The conscious investors would do it
to improve society and the environment
to improve society and the environment
228
624433
5099
有意識的投資者會為了
改善社會和環境而做，
改善社會和環境而做，
10:41
and make money in the process
229
629556
1753
在過程中順便賺錢，
10:43
and do it a little more
collaboratively and constructively.
collaboratively and constructively.
230
631333
2997
且用比較同心協力、
有建設性一點的方式來做。
有建設性一點的方式來做。
10:47
And they have the backing
of the some of the largest investors.
of the some of the largest investors.
231
635245
3005
有一些最大的投資者在支持他們。
領航投資和貝萊德
合起來管理的金額是數兆美元。
合起來管理的金額是數兆美元。
10:50
Vanguard and BlackRock --
together, they manage trillions.
together, they manage trillions.
232
638274
2989
10:53
They've been increasingly vocal
about the importance of ESG.
about the importance of ESG.
233
641287
3412
對於 ESG 的重要性，
它們越來越暢所欲言。
它們越來越暢所欲言。
10:57
The CEO of BlackRock has been
increasingly vocal in his annual letters
increasingly vocal in his annual letters
234
645542
3984
貝萊德的執行長
在他的年度報告中，
在他的年度報告中，
對於這個議題越來越暢所欲言。
11:01
about this issue.
235
649550
1331
11:03
Even Jana Partners, the same OGs
that John called "greedy bastards,"
that John called "greedy bastards,"
236
651512
4770
就連 JANA Partners，
被約翰稱作
「貪心的雜種」的前輩，
「貪心的雜種」的前輩，
11:08
recently co-wrote an open letter
to the board of Apple,
to the board of Apple,
237
656306
2665
最近也共同撰寫了一封公開信
給 Apple 的董事會，說：
給 Apple 的董事會，說：
11:10
saying, "Hey, your smartphones
are addictive for children.
are addictive for children.
238
658995
3127
「嘿，你們的智慧手機
會讓孩子上癮。
會讓孩子上癮。
11:14
Fix it."
239
662969
1196
解決這問題。」
11:16
Apple is working on it.
240
664813
1654
Apple 正在努力想辦法。
11:19
So what it's going to take
is some pressure.
is some pressure.
241
667983
2221
所以，需要的就是一些壓力。
11:22
It's going to take some pressure
on conscious investors
on conscious investors
242
670744
2605
需要對有意識的投資者
施加一些壓力，
施加一些壓力，
他們接著就會
對管理階層施加壓力，
對管理階層施加壓力，
11:25
to, in turn, put some pressure
on management
on management
243
673373
2827
11:28
to make changes that will improve
the environment and society.
the environment and society.
244
676224
4253
做出改變，改善環境和社會。
11:33
And where do they start?
245
681520
1156
他們要從何開始？可以先挑選出
11:34
They start by picking an issue
that matters to them
that matters to them
246
682700
2811
對他們有重要性的議題，
11:37
and taking a stand on it.
247
685535
1302
並對它採取堅定的立場。
11:39
Take a stand on an issue
that lines up with your purpose:
that lines up with your purpose:
248
687376
3255
對這個議題，採取
和你的目的一致的立場：
和你的目的一致的立場：
11:43
water preservation,
labor rights, diversity.
labor rights, diversity.
249
691313
2645
水資源保育、勞工權益、多樣性。
11:45
As long as it lines up
with your purpose, you are golden.
with your purpose, you are golden.
250
693982
2838
只要和你的目的一致就行了。
11:49
And the biggest unlock?
251
697393
1635
而最大的資金釋放呢？
11:51
Get the senior-most investment
professionals focused on this.
professionals focused on this.
252
699052
4967
讓最資深的投資專家
把注意力放在此。
11:56
Today, when an activist
shows up to a campaign,
shows up to a campaign,
253
704590
2278
現今，當一個行動派
出現在一場宣傳活動中，
出現在一場宣傳活動中，
那就是資深投資家
去和執行長及董事會恰談，
去和執行長及董事會恰談，
11:58
it's the senior investment professional
talking to the CEO and the board
talking to the CEO and the board
254
706892
3459
每個人都會聽到這件事。
12:02
and everyone hears about it.
255
710375
1450
12:03
When a conscious investor shows up
to talk about an ESG issue,
to talk about an ESG issue,
256
711849
3547
當一名有意識的投資出現
並談論 ESG 議題，
並談論 ESG 議題，
12:07
it's some junior person
in the risk department
in the risk department
257
715420
2441
那只是風險部門的菜鳥
12:09
talking to some junior person
in the investor relations department,
in the investor relations department,
258
717885
3170
和投資者關係部門的菜鳥恰談，
沒有人會聽到這件事，
這點必須要改變。
這點必須要改變。
12:13
and nobody hears about it,
and that needs to change.
and that needs to change.
259
721079
2554
這並不是什麼大躍進。
12:15
And it's not some massive leap.
260
723657
1633
12:17
Today, when a company
underperforms financially,
underperforms financially,
261
725314
2371
現今，當一家公司
在財務上表現差勁時，
在財務上表現差勁時，
12:19
who is on the hook?
262
727709
1168
誰要負責？資深的投資專家。
12:20
The senior investment professional.
263
728901
1670
所以，他們會怎麼做？
放下一切與管理階層合作，
放下一切與管理階層合作，
12:22
So what do they do?
264
730595
1158
12:23
They drop everything
and work with management,
and work with management,
265
731777
2205
同心協力且有建設性地合作，
來做出改變，
來做出改變，
12:26
collaboratively and constructively,
266
734006
1712
12:27
to make changes to improve
the company's financial performance.
the company's financial performance.
267
735742
3504
改善公司的財務表現。
12:31
The same should be true when the company
underperforms on ESG issues.
underperforms on ESG issues.
268
739270
3665
當公司在 ESG 議題上的表現不佳時，
應該也是如此。
12:34
And yes, that requires standardization
on how we measure ESG,
on how we measure ESG,
269
742959
3738
是的，我們會需要
訂定測量 ESG 的標準。
訂定測量 ESG 的標準。
12:38
but we're on it.
270
746721
1186
但我們在努力了。
12:41
So folks, here's my call to action:
271
749201
1942
所以，各位，這是我的行動呼籲：
12:43
it's your money.
272
751766
1572
這是你的錢，
12:45
It's your pension fund,
273
753362
1509
這是你的退休金，
12:46
it's your sovereign wealth fund.
274
754895
1829
這是你的主權財富基金。
12:48
it's your university's endowment.
275
756748
1647
這是你的大學的資助。
12:50
It's your money.
276
758419
1352
這是你的錢。
12:51
And it's your right to have your money
managed in line with your values.
managed in line with your values.
277
759795
3645
你有權要求管理你的錢的方式
要和你的價值觀一致。
要和你的價值觀一致。
12:55
So use your voice
278
763910
1281
所以，要發聲，
12:57
and trust that it matters.
279
765803
1515
並且相信發聲是重要的。
12:59
It was your voice that got the investors
more conscious in the first place.
more conscious in the first place.
280
767902
3833
一開始就是你的聲音
讓投資者更有意識的。
讓投資者更有意識的。
13:03
You protested for years,
281
771759
1925
你抗議了數年，
13:05
because you didn't feel right
about your money being invested
about your money being invested
282
773708
2926
因為你覺得你的錢被投資到
價值觀與你不同的公司，
讓你感覺不太對。
讓你感覺不太對。
13:08
in companies whose values
don't line up with yours.
don't line up with yours.
283
776658
2784
該是再次使用那聲音的時候了。
13:11
It's time to use that voice again.
284
779466
1883
13:13
But this time, instead of
pushing them to divest,
pushing them to divest,
285
781373
2318
但這一次，不要迫使他們撤資，
改成迫使他們參與，真正參與，
真正與管理階層合作，
真正與管理階層合作，
13:15
push them to engage, truly engage,
truly work with management
truly work with management
286
783715
3534
13:19
to make changes that will improve
their ESG performance.
their ESG performance.
287
787273
3609
做出改變，改善他們的 ESG 表現。
13:24
You made them aware of the issues.
288
792449
2075
你已經讓他們注意到這些議題。
13:26
You can now focus them on fixing them.
289
794548
1928
現在你可以讓他們專注於解決它們。
13:29
Thank you.
290
797074
1563
謝謝。
13:30
(Applause)
291
798661
2380
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Vinay Shandal - Investment agitatorBCG's Vinay Shandal is passionate about the role of capital in creating impact.
Why you should listen
A Partner in The Boston Consulting Group's Toronto office, Vinay Shandal leads BCG's Principal Investors and Private Equity practice in Canada. He also helps lead the global efforts on shareholder activism, a topic for which he developed passion while at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. Before becoming a consultant, Shandal practiced corporate law in New York and clerked at the Supreme Court of Canada in Ottawa.
Shandal has co-authored numerous BCG and other publications on various aspects of investing, shareholder activism and the role of capital in driving better societal outcomes.
As a leader at BCG's Centre for Canada's Future, Shandal is also invested in keeping tabs on and tackling some of the country’s most pressing issues. He is a board member of Capitalize 4 Kids, a nonprofit that aims to solve the toughest challenges in children's brain health and mental health. In his work, Shandal is most passionate about the role of capital in creating impact and most inspired by his wife, Christina, who is a respected social activist.
Vinay Shandal | Speaker | TED.com