TED2009
Jim Fallon: Exploring the mind of a killer
Jim Fallon: Istraživanje mozga ubojice
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Ubojice psihopati glavna su tema nekih „obavezno-pogledajte“ filmova, ali postavlja se pitanje, što je ono što „okida“ takve osobe. Neuroznanstvenik Jim Fallon govori o skenovima mozga i genetičkim analizama koji bi mogli otkriti uzrok podle prirode (i odgoja) tih ubojica. U svom govoru dijeli fascinantnu obiteljsku povijest koja njegov rad čini osobnim.
Jim Fallon - Neurobiologist
Sloan Scholar, Fulbright Fellow, Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience, Jim Fallon looks at the way nature and nurture intermingle to wire up the human brain. Full bio
Sloan Scholar, Fulbright Fellow, Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience, Jim Fallon looks at the way nature and nurture intermingle to wire up the human brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:18
I'm a neuroscientist, a professor at the University of California.
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Neuroznanstvenik sam i profesor na Sveučilištu u Kaliforniji.
00:21
And over the past 35 years,
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Posljednjih 35 godina,
00:24
I've studied behavior
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proučavao sam ponašanje
00:26
on the basis of everything from genes
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od gena
00:29
through neurotransmitters, dopamine, things like that,
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do neurotransmitera, dopamina, i sličnih stvari,
00:31
all the way through circuit analysis.
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i sve putem kružnih analiza.
00:33
So that's what I normally do.
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Dakle, to je uglavnom ono čime se inače bavim.
00:35
But then, for some reason,
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Ali onda, iz nekog razloga,
00:37
I got into something else, just recently.
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baš nedavno uvukao sam se u nešto drugačije.
00:39
And it all grew out of one of my colleagues asking me
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Sve je to bilo potaknuto molbom jednoga kolege
00:42
to analyze a bunch of brains
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da analiziram hrpu mozgova
00:44
of psychopathic killers.
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ubojica psihopata.
00:46
And so this would be the typical talk I would give.
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Dakle, ovo bi bio moj tipičan govor.
00:49
And the question is, "How do you end up with a psychopathic killer?"
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A pitanje je, „Kako postanete psihopatski ubojica?“
00:52
What I mean by psychopathic killer
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Kada govorim o ubojicama psihopatima,
00:54
are these people, these types of people.
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mislim zapravo na određene tipove ljudi.
00:56
And so some of the brains that I've studied
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Neki od mozgova koje sam proučavao,
00:58
are people you know about.
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pripadaju ljudima o kojima nešto i znate.
01:00
When I get the brains I don't know what I'm looking at.
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Kada dođem u doticaj s mozgom, ne znam u što gledam.
01:02
It's blind experiments. They also gave me normal people and everything.
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To su bili slijepi eksperimenti. Također sam dobivao i mozgove normalnih ljudi.
01:04
So I've looked at about 70 of these.
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Pogledao sam ih otprilike 70.
01:06
And what came up was a number of pieces of data.
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I ono što je proizašlo bilo je mnoštvo podataka.
01:09
So we look at these sorts of things theoretically,
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Proučavamo ovakve stvari teoretski,
01:12
on the basis of genetics,
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na temelju genetičkih čimbenika,
01:14
and brain damage, and interaction with environment,
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oštećenja mozga i interakcije s okolinom,
01:17
and exactly how that machine works.
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te točnog načina na koji taj „stroj“ radi.
01:19
So we're interested in exactly where in the brain,
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Nas stoga zanima gdje točno u mozgu
01:21
and what's the most important part of the brain.
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i koji je najvažniji dio mozga.
01:23
So we've been looking at this:
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Stoga smo proučavali slijedeće:
01:26
the interaction of genes,
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interakciju gena,
01:28
what's called epigenetic effects,
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tj. epigenetske utjecaje,
01:30
brain damage, and environment,
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moždana oštećenja i okolinu,
01:32
and how these are tied together.
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i kako su navedene stvari međusobno povezane.
01:34
And how you end up with a psychopath, and a killer,
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Kako postanete psihopat i ubojica
01:36
depends on exactly when the damage occurs.
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ovisi točno o vremenu nastanka oštećenja.
01:39
It's really a very precisely timed thing.
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To je vremenski vrlo precizna stvar.
01:42
You get different kinds of psychopaths.
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Dobijete različite vrste psihopata.
01:44
So we're going along with this. And here's, just to give you the pattern.
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I dok pričamo o ovome, ukazat ću vam na uzorak
01:47
The pattern is that those people, every one of them I looked at,
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koji se ponavljao kod ispitanika - svi ti ljudi, koje sam pojedinačno proučavao,
01:50
who was a murderer, and was a serial killer,
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i koji su bili ubojice i serijski ubojice,
01:53
had damage to their orbital cortex,
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imali su oštećenje orbitalnog korteksa.
01:55
which is right above the eyes, the orbits,
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To područje smješteno je odmah iznad očiju, orbita,
01:57
and also the interior part of the temporal lobe.
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također i unutrašnjeg dijela sljepoočnog režnja.
01:59
So there is the pattern that every one of them had,
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To je dakle uzorak koji se kod svih njih ponavljao,
02:01
but they all were a little different too.
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ali ipak se oni malo i razlikuju.
02:03
They had other sorts of brain damage.
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Imali su različite vrste moždanih oštećenja.
02:05
A key thing is that
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Ključna stvar je utjecaj
02:07
the major violence genes,
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glavnih gena, posrednika nasilnog ponašanja,
02:10
it's called the MAO-A gene.
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poput MAO-A gena.
02:13
And there is a variant of this gene that is in the normal population.
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Varijanta ovoga gena postoji u normalnoj populaciji.
02:17
Some of you have this. And it's sex-linked.
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Neki od vas je imaju. On je spolno vezan.
02:20
It's on the X chromosome. And so in this way
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Nalazi se na X kromosomu. Stoga, možete ju
02:22
you can only get it from your mother.
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naslijediti samo od svoje majke.
02:25
And in fact this is probably why mostly men, boys,
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To je vjerojatno i uzrok pojave da su
02:29
are psychopathic killers,
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psihopatski ubojice većinom muškarci
02:31
or are very aggressive.
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ili su vrlo agresivni.
02:33
Because a daughter can get one X from the father,
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Budući da kćeri nasljeđuju jedan X kromosom od oca
02:36
one X from the mother, it's kind of diluted out.
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a jedan X kromosom od majke, nije toliko česta pojava u ženskog spola. .
02:38
But for a son, he can only get
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A što se tiče sina,
02:40
the X chromosome from his mother.
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on X kromosom nasljeđuje samo od majke
02:42
So this is how it's passed from mother to son.
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I tako se prenosi sa majke na sina.
02:45
And it has to do with too much brain serotonin during development,
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Ova pojava ima veze sa previše moždanog serotonina tijekom razvoja.
02:49
which is kind of interesting because serotonin
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Što je zapravo zanimljivo, budući da bi vas serotonin
02:51
is supposed to make you calm and relaxed.
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trebao umirivati i opuštati.
02:54
But if you have this gene, in utero
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Ali ako nosite ovaj gen, vaš se mozak u intrauterinom
02:57
your brain is bathed in this,
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razvoju „kupa“ u serotoninu.
02:59
so your whole brain becomes insensitive to serotonin,
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Stoga vaš cijeli mozak postaje neosjetljiv na serotonin.
03:01
so it doesn't work later on in life.
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Zbog toga, on nema utjecaj na vas kasnije u životu.
03:04
And I'd given this one talk in Israel,
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Držao sam jedan govor u Izraelu
03:07
just this past year.
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prošle godine.
03:09
And it does have some consequences.
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I imao je iste posljedice.
03:11
Theoretically what this means
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U teoretskom smislu,
03:13
is that in order to express this gene,
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da bi došlo do ekspresije ovoga gena,
03:16
in a violent way,
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na nasilan način,
03:18
very early on, before puberty,
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morali biste vrlo rano, prije puberteta,
03:20
you have to be involved in something that is really traumatic --
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biti uključeni u nešto izrazito traumatično,
03:23
not a little stress, not being spanked or something,
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ne lagano pod stresom, ne biti išamaran ili nešto slično.
03:25
but really seeing violence,
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Nego zaista prisustvovati nasilju
03:27
or being involved in it, in 3D.
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ili biti upleten u njega, kao 3D.
03:29
Right? That's how the mirror neuron system works.
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Točno? Na takav način funkcionira živčani sustav.
03:31
And so, if you have that gene,
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I ukoliko posjedujete taj gen,
03:34
and you see a lot of violence
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i svjedokom ste učestalih nasilnih
03:37
in a certain situation,
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situacija,
03:39
this is the recipe for disaster, absolute disaster.
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to vam je recept za katastrofu, apsolutnu katastrofu.
03:42
And what I think might happen in these areas of the world,
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I ono što mislim da bi se moglo dogoditi u dijelovima svijeta
03:45
where we have constant violence,
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u kojima je prisutno konstantno nasilje,
03:48
you end up having generations of kids
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jest da završite sa generacijama djece
03:51
that are seeing all this violence.
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koja prisustvuju tom nasilju.
03:53
And if I was a young girl, somewhere in a violent area,
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Da sam ja djevojka, okružena nasiljem,
03:56
you know, a 14 year old, and I want to find a mate,
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znate, 14-godišnjakinja, i poželim si naći dečka,
03:58
I'd find some tough guy, right, to protect me.
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tražila bi nekog opasnog tipa, da me zaštiti.
04:01
Well what the problem is this tends to concentrate these genes.
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I ono što predstavlja problem je što takvi postupci teže koncentriranju takvih gena,
04:05
And now the boys and the girls get them.
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a djevojčice i dječaci ih nasljeđuju.
04:07
So I think after several generations,
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I evo jedne ideje - nakon nekoliko generacija
04:09
and here is the idea, we really have a tinderbox.
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dobijete potencijalnu “atomsku bombu“.
04:12
So that was the idea.
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I tako sam ja imao tu ideju,
04:14
But then my mother said to me, "I hear you've been going around talking
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ali onda mi je majka rekla, ˝Čujem da pričaš uokolo
04:16
about psychopathic killers.
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o psihopatskim ubojicama.
04:19
And you're talking as if you come from a normal family."
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Govoriš kao da ti potičeš iz normalne obitelji.˝
04:22
I said, "What the hell are you talking about?"
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A ja sam na to odgovorio, „Što to dovraga pričaš?“
04:24
She then told me about our own family tree.
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Onda mi je ispričala o našem obiteljskom stablu.
04:27
Now she blamed this on my father's side, of course.
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Naravno, okrivila je očevu stranu,
04:29
This was one of these cases, because she has no violence in her background,
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jer ona nije imala nasilnu prošlost.
04:33
but my father did.
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Ali, moj otac jest.
04:35
Well she said, "There is good news and bad news.
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Rekla je, „Imam dobre i loše vijesti.
04:37
One of your cousins is Ezra Cornell, founder of Cornell university.
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Jedan od tvojih rođaka je Ezra Cornell, osnivač Sveučilišta Cornell.
04:40
But the bad news is that your cousin is also Lizzie Borden.
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Ali loše vijesti su to da je tvoja rođakinja i Lizzi Borden.
04:43
Now I said, "Okay, so what? We have Lizzie."
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Ja sam odgovorio, „Ok, pa što? Znamo za Lizzi.“
04:50
She goes, "No it gets worse, read this book."
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Ona je nastavila, „Ne, pročitaj knjigu, postaje gore.“
04:52
And here is this "Killed Strangely," and it's this historical book.
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I evo je, „Ubijena na čudan način“ i to je ta povijesna knjiga.
04:54
And the first murder
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I prvo ubojstvo
04:56
of a mother by a son
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majke od strane sina,
04:58
was my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.
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bilo je ono mojeg pra-pra-pra-pra-pra-pra-pradjeda.
05:01
Okay, so that's the first case of matricide.
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Ok, dakle to je prvi takav slučaj.
05:04
And that book is very interesting. Because it's about witch trials,
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I knjiga je vrlo zanimljiva, jer govori i o suđenju vješticama
05:07
and how people thought back then.
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i ljudskim razmišljanjima u to doba.
05:09
But it doesn't stop there.
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Ali tu nije kraj.
05:11
There were seven more men, on my father's side,
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Sedmorica muškaraca, s očeve strane,
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starting then, Cornells, that were all murderers.
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iz obitelji Cornell, svi su bili ubojice.
05:18
Okay, now this gives one a little pause.
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Ok, ovo zaslužuje malu pauzu.
05:21
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
05:23
Because my father himself,
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Zato što su moj otac
05:25
and my three uncles, in World War II,
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i trojica stričeva, u Drugom svjetskom ratu,
05:27
were all conscientious objectors, all pussycats.
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bili protiv rata, mamine mazice.
05:30
But every once in a while, like Lizzie Borden, like three times a century,
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Ali svako malo, npr. tri puta u stoljeću, nađe se slučaj kao s Lizzie Borden,
05:32
and we're kind of due.
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i onda smo mi „kvit.“
05:34
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
05:37
So the moral of the story is:
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Pouka ove priče je:
05:39
people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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ljudi u staklenim kućama ne bi trebali bacati kamenje.
05:41
But more likely is this.
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Ali, više je onih koji to rade.
05:44
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
05:48
And we had to take action. Now our kids found out about it.
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I mi moramo djelovati, jer sada su naša djeca saznala za to,
05:51
And they all seemed to be OK.
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i svi se čine kao da im je to u redu.
05:53
But our grandkids are going to be kind of concerned here.
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Ali naši unuci će biti zabrinuti.
05:56
So what we've done is I've started to do PET scans
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Stoga sam napravio PET sken
05:59
of everybody in the family.
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cijele obitelji.
06:01
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
06:02
We started to do PET scans, EEGs and genetic analysis
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Počeli smo sa PET skenovima, EEG-om i genetičkim analizama
06:05
to see where the bad news is.
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da utvrdimo gdje je centar loših vijesti.
06:07
Now the only person -- it turns out
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Ispitivao sam
06:09
one son and one daughter, siblings,
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sina i kćerku, braću,
06:12
didn't get along and their patterns are exactly the same.
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nisu se slagali, iako su im uzorci isti.
06:14
They have the same brain, and the same EEG.
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Imaju isti mozak, isti EEG.
06:17
And now they are close as can be.
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Sada su najbliži što mogu biti.
06:20
But there's gonna be bad news somewhere.
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Negdje će biti loših vijesti,
06:22
And we don't know where it's going to pop up.
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a mi ne znamo gdje one mogu buknuti.
06:24
So that's my talk.
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To bi bio moj govor.
06:26
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jim Fallon - NeurobiologistSloan Scholar, Fulbright Fellow, Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience, Jim Fallon looks at the way nature and nurture intermingle to wire up the human brain.
Why you should listen
Jim Fallon has taught neuroscience and psychiatry grand rounds at the University of California Irvine for thirty-five years. Through research he explores the way genetic and perinatal environmental factors affect the way the brain gets built -- and then how an individual's experience further shapes his or her development. He lectures and writes on creativity, consciousness and culture, and has made key contributions to our understanding of adult stems and stroke, schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.
Only lately has Fallon turned his research toward the subject of psychopaths -- particularly those who kill. With PET scans and EEGs, he's beginning to uncover the deep, underlying traits that make people violent and murderous. In his talk at TEDDIY at TED@PalmSprings, he shared a surprise discovery about his own family that prompted him to bring his work home.
Watch his followup talk from The Moth at the 2011 World Science Festival >>
Jim Fallon | Speaker | TED.com