TED Salon: Border Stories
Will Hurd: A wall won't solve America's border problems
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"Building a 30-foot-high concrete structure from sea to shining sea is the most expensive and least effective way to do border security," says Congressman Will Hurd, a Republican from Texas whose district encompasses two times zones and shares an 820-mile border with Mexico. Speaking from Washington, DC in a video interview with former state attorney general Anne Milgram, Hurd discusses the US government's border policy and its controversial detention and child separation practices -- and lays out steps toward a better future at the border. (Recorded at the TED World Theater in New York on September 10, 2019)
Will Hurd - Politician
Congressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso. Full bioAnne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime. Full bio
Congressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso. Full bioAnne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Anne Milgram: Congressman,
I was about to introduce you
I was about to introduce you
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and say a little more --
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Will Hurd: Hey, Anne. How are you?
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AM: Hi, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
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We're so lucky to have you here with us.
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I've already explained
that you're actually in Washington
that you're actually in Washington
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because you're working.
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And I was about to tell folks
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that you represent
the 23rd district of Texas.
the 23rd district of Texas.
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But maybe you could tell us
a little bit about your district
a little bit about your district
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and describe it for us.
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WH: Sure, my district in Southwest Texas
is 29 counties, two time zones,
is 29 counties, two time zones,
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820 miles of border
from Eagle Pass, Texas
from Eagle Pass, Texas
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all the way to El Paso.
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It takes 10 and a half hours to drive
across my district at 80 miles an hour,
across my district at 80 miles an hour,
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which is the speed limit
in most of the district.
in most of the district.
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And I found out a couple of weekends ago,
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it's not the speed limit
in all the district.
in all the district.
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01:02
(Laughter)
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It's a 71-percent Latino district,
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and it's the district that
I've been representing
I've been representing
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for now my third term in Congress.
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01:13
And when you think
about the issue of the border,
about the issue of the border,
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I have more border
than any other member of Congress.
than any other member of Congress.
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I spent nine and a half years
as an undercover officer in the CIA,
as an undercover officer in the CIA,
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chasing bad people all across the country.
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So when it comes to securing our border,
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it's something I know a little bit about.
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AM: One of the things I learned recently
which I hadn't known before
which I hadn't known before
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is that your district
is actually the size, I think,
is actually the size, I think,
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of the state of Georgia?
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WH: That's right.
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It's larger than 26 states,
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.
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So it's pretty big.
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AM: So as an expert in national security
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and as a member of Congress,
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you've been called upon
to think about issues
to think about issues
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related to immigration,
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and in recent years,
particularly about the border wall.
particularly about the border wall.
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What is your reaction
to President Trump's statement
to President Trump's statement
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that we need a big, beautiful wall
that would stretch across our border,
that would stretch across our border,
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and at 18 to 30 feet high?
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02:11
WH: I've been saying this since I first
ran for Congress back in 2009,
ran for Congress back in 2009,
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this is not a new topic,
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that building a 30-foot-high
concrete structure
concrete structure
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from sea to shining sea
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is the most expensive
and least effective way
and least effective way
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to do border security.
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There are parts of the border
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where Border Patrol's
response time to a threat
response time to a threat
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is measured in hours to days.
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If your response time
is measured in hours to days,
is measured in hours to days,
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then a wall is not a physical barrier.
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We should be having technology
along the border,
along the border,
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we should have operation
control of our border,
control of our border,
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which means we know everything
that's going back and forth across it.
that's going back and forth across it.
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We can do a lot of that with technology.
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We also need more folks
within our border patrol.
within our border patrol.
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But in addition to doing all this,
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one of the things we should be able to do
is streamline legal immigration.
is streamline legal immigration.
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If you're going to be
a productive member of our society,
a productive member of our society,
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let's get you here as quickly as possible,
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but let's do it legally.
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And if we're able to streamline that,
then you're going to see
then you're going to see
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some of the pressures
relieved along our border
relieved along our border
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and allow men and women in Border Patrol
to focus on human trafficking
to focus on human trafficking
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and drug-trafficking
organizations as well.
organizations as well.
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AM: Congressman,
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there's also been a conversation
nationally about using emergency funds
nationally about using emergency funds
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to build the border wall
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and taking those funds
from the United States military.
from the United States military.
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What has your position been on that issue?
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WH: I'm one of the few Republicans up here
that has opposed that effort.
that has opposed that effort.
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We are just now rebuilding our military,
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and taking funds away from making sure
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that our brothers and sisters,
our wives and our husbands
our wives and our husbands
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have the training and equipment they need
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in order to take care of us
in far-flung places --
in far-flung places --
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taking money away from them
is not an efficient use of our resources,
is not an efficient use of our resources,
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especially if it's going to build a ...
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you know, I always say
it's a fourth-century solution
it's a fourth-century solution
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to a 21st-century problem.
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And the reality is,
what we should be focusing on
what we should be focusing on
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is some of the other root causes
of this problem,
of this problem,
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and many of your speakers today
have talked about that.
have talked about that.
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Some of those key root problems
are violence, lack of economic opportunity
are violence, lack of economic opportunity
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and extreme poverty,
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specifically, in the Northern Triangle:
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.
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We should be working --
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AM: I was going to ask
what you would recommend
what you would recommend
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United States government does
to address the underlying,
to address the underlying,
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what we call push factors, or root causes
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in those three countries
in Central America?
in Central America?
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WH: One of the things I learned
as an undercover officer in the CIA
as an undercover officer in the CIA
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is be nice with nice guys
and tough with tough guys.
and tough with tough guys.
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And one of the principles
of being nice with nice guys
of being nice with nice guys
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is to strengthen our alliances.
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We have a number of programs
currently in these three countries
currently in these three countries
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that USAID and the State Department
is doing to address this violence issue.
is doing to address this violence issue.
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And we know, in El Salvador,
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one of the problems was
that the police were corrupt.
that the police were corrupt.
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And so we've worked with the Salvadorians
to purge the police,
to purge the police,
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rehire new folks,
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use community policing tactics.
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These are tactics the men and women
in the United States of America
in the United States of America
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and police forces
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use every single day.
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And when we did this
in certain communities,
in certain communities,
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guess what happened?
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We saw a decrease in the violence
that was happening in those communities.
that was happening in those communities.
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And then we also saw
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a decrease in the number of people
that were leaving those areas
that were leaving those areas
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to try to come
to the United States illegally.
to the United States illegally.
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So it's a fraction of the cost
to solve a problem there,
to solve a problem there,
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before it ultimately reaches our border.
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And one of the reasons
that you have violence and crime
that you have violence and crime
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is political corruption
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and the lack of central governments
to protect its citizens.
to protect its citizens.
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And so this is something
we should be continuing to work on.
we should be continuing to work on.
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We shouldn't be decreasing
the amount of money that we have
the amount of money that we have
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that we're sending to these countries.
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I actually think
we should be increasing it.
we should be increasing it.
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I believe the first thing --
we should have done this months ago --
we should have done this months ago --
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is select a special representative
for the Northern Triangle.
for the Northern Triangle.
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That's a senior diplomat
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that's going to work to make sure
we're using all of our levers of power
we're using all of our levers of power
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to help these three countries,
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and then that we're doing it
in a coordinated effort.
in a coordinated effort.
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This is not just a problem
for the United States and Mexico,
for the United States and Mexico,
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this is a problem for the entire
western hemisphere.
western hemisphere.
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So, where is the Organization
of American States?
of American States?
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Where is the International
Development Bank?
Development Bank?
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We should be having a collective plan
to address these root causes.
to address these root causes.
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And when you talk about violence,
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a lot of times, we talk
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.
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But it's also violence like
women being beaten by their husbands.
women being beaten by their husbands.
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And they have nobody else to go to,
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and they are unable to deal
with this current problem.
with this current problem.
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So these are the types of issues
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that we should be increasing
our diplomacy,
our diplomacy,
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increasing our economic development aid.
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AM: Please, I want to take you now
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from thinking about the root causes
in Central America
in Central America
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to thinking about the separation
of children and families
of children and families
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in the United States.
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Starting in April 2018,
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the Trump administration began
a no-tolerance policy
a no-tolerance policy
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for immigrants, people seeking
refugee status, asylum
refugee status, asylum
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in the United States.
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And that led to the separation
of 2,700 children
of 2,700 children
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in the first year
that that program was run.
that that program was run.
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Now, I want to address this with you,
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and I want to separate it up front
into two different conversations.
into two different conversations.
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One of the things
that the administration did
that the administration did
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was file legal court papers,
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saying that one of the primary
purposes of the separations
purposes of the separations
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was to act as a deterrent
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against people coming
to the United States.
to the United States.
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And I want to talk for a moment
about that from a moral perspective
about that from a moral perspective
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and to get your views.
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WH: We shouldn't be doing it,
period. It's real simple.
period. It's real simple.
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And guess what, it wasn't a deterrent.
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You only saw an increase
in the amount of illegal immigration.
in the amount of illegal immigration.
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And when you're sitting,
debating a strategy,
debating a strategy,
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if somebody comes up with the idea
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of snatching a child
out of their mother's arms,
out of their mother's arms,
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you need to go back to the drawing board.
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This is not what the United States
of America stands for,
of America stands for,
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this is not a Republican
or a Democrat or independent thing.
or a Democrat or independent thing.
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This is a human decency thing.
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And so, using that strategy,
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it didn't achieve the ultimate purpose.
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And ultimately, the amount
of research that is done
of research that is done
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and the impact that
the detention of children has --
the detention of children has --
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especially if it's over 21 days --
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has on their development and their future
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is disastrous.
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So we shouldn't be trying to detain
children for any more than 21 days,
children for any more than 21 days,
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and we should be getting children,
if they're in our custody,
if they're in our custody,
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we should be taking care of them humanely,
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and making sure they're with people
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that can provide them a safe
and loving environment.
and loving environment.
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09:20
AM: I would challenge you
even on the 21-day number,
even on the 21-day number,
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but for the purposes of this conversation,
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I want to follow up
on something you just said,
on something you just said,
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which is both that it's wrong
to detain children,
to detain children,
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and that it's not effective.
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So the question, then, is why
does the administration continue to do it,
does the administration continue to do it,
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when we've seen 900 additional children
separated from their parents
separated from their parents
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since the summer of 2018?
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Why is this happening?
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WH: Well, that's something
that you'd have to ultimately
that you'd have to ultimately
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ask the administration.
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These are questions that I've been asking.
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The Tornillo facility is in my district.
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These are buildings that are not
designed to hold anybody
designed to hold anybody
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for multiple days,
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let alone children.
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We should be making sure
that if they are in our custody --
that if they are in our custody --
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a lot of times for
the uncompanied children,
the uncompanied children,
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we don't have a ...
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we don't know of a patron or a family
member in the United States,
member in the United States,
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and we should make sure
that they're in facilities
that they're in facilities
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where they're able to go to school
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and have proper food and health care.
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And if we're able to find
a sponsor or family member,
a sponsor or family member,
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let's get them into that custody,
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while they're waiting
for their immigration court case.
for their immigration court case.
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That's the other issue here.
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When you have a backlog of cases --
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I think it's now 900,000 cases
that are backlogged --
that are backlogged --
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we should be able to do
an immigration hearing
an immigration hearing
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within nine months.
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I think most of the legal community
thinks that is enough time
thinks that is enough time
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to do something like this,
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so that we can facilitate
whether someone, an individual,
whether someone, an individual,
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is able to stay in the United States
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or they're going to have to be returned
back to their home country,
back to their home country,
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rather than being in this limbo
for five years.
for five years.
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AM: If we think about
the asylum system today,
the asylum system today,
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where people are coming and saying
that they have a credible threat,
that they have a credible threat,
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that they will be persecuted back home,
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and we think about the fact
that on average,
that on average,
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it's about two years for someone
to get an asylum hearing,
to get an asylum hearing,
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that many people are not represented
as they go through that process,
as they go through that process,
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it makes me think about something
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that they say in the health care
space all the time,
space all the time,
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which is that every system
is perfectly designed
is perfectly designed
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to get the results it gets.
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And so as you think about this
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and think about how we would
redesign this system
redesign this system
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to not do what we're doing,
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which is years and years
of detention and separations and hardship
of detention and separations and hardship
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for people seeking --
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and again, asylum being a lawful
United States government process --
United States government process --
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for people seeking
to enter our country lawfully.
to enter our country lawfully.
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What should we do?
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WH: I tried to increase
by four billion dollars
by four billion dollars
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the amount of resources that HHS has
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in order to specifically deal,
ultimately, with children.
ultimately, with children.
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I think we need more immigration judges
in order to process these cases,
in order to process these cases,
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and I think we need to ensure
that folks can get representation.
that folks can get representation.
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I've been able to work with a number
of lawyers up and down the border
of lawyers up and down the border
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to make sure they are being able
to get access to the folks
to get access to the folks
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that are having these problems.
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And so this is something
that we should be able to design.
that we should be able to design.
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And ultimately, when it comes to children,
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we should be doing everything we can
when they're in our custody,
when they're in our custody,
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in order to take care of them.
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AM: So I have two more questions for you
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before I'm going to let you
go back to work.
go back to work.
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The first is about our focus
in the United States
in the United States
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on the questions of immigration.
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Because if you look
at some of the statistics,
at some of the statistics,
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you see that of people
who are undocumented
who are undocumented
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in the United States,
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the majority of people
have overstayed on visas,
have overstayed on visas,
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they haven't come through the border.
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If you look at the people
who try to enter the country
who try to enter the country
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who are on the terrorist watch list,
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they enter overwhelmingly
through the airports
through the airports
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and not through the border.
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If we look at drugs
coming into the United States,
coming into the United States,
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which has been a huge part
of this conversation,
of this conversation,
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the vast majority of those drugs
come through our ports
come through our ports
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and through other points of entry,
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not through backpacks
on people crossing the border.
on people crossing the border.
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So the thing I always ask
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and I always worry about with government,
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is that we focus so much on one thing,
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and my question for you
is whether we are focused
is whether we are focused
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in this conversation nationally
about the border,
about the border,
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every day and every minute of every day,
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whether we're looking
completely in the wrong direction.
completely in the wrong direction.
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WH: I would agree with your premise.
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When you have --
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let's start with the economic benefits.
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When you have 3.6 percent unemployment,
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what does that mean?
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That means you need folks
in every industry,
in every industry,
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whether it's agriculture
or artificial intelligence.
or artificial intelligence.
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So why aren't we streamlining
legal immigration?
legal immigration?
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We should be able
to make this market based
to make this market based
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in order to have folks come in
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and be productive members of our society.
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When it comes to the drug issue
you're talking about,
you're talking about,
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yes, it's in our ports of entry,
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14:14
but it's also coming in to our shores.
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Coast Guard is only able to action
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25 percent of the known
intelligence they have
intelligence they have
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on drugs coming into our country.
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14:25
The metric that we should
be measuring [is]
be measuring [is]
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are we seeing a decrease of deaths
from overdose from drugs overseas,
from overdose from drugs overseas,
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14:33
are we seeing a decrease
in illegal immigration?
in illegal immigration?
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14:37
It's not how many miles of fencing
that we have ultimately built.
that we have ultimately built.
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14:42
And so we have benefited
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14:44
from the brain drain
of every other country
of every other country
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14:46
for the last couple of decades.
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14:48
I want to see that continue,
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14:49
and I want to see that continue
with the hardworking drain.
with the hardworking drain.
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14:52
And I can sell you this:
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at last Congress, Pete Aguilar,
a Democrat from California, and I
a Democrat from California, and I
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14:58
had a piece of legislation
called the USA Act:
called the USA Act:
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15:01
strong border security,
streamline legal immigration,
streamline legal immigration,
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15:04
fix DACA -- 1.2 million kids who have
only known the United States of America
only known the United States of America
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15:09
as their home --
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15:10
these kids, or I should say
young men and women,
young men and women,
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15:12
they are already Americans,
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15:14
let's not have them go through
any more uncertainty
any more uncertainty
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15:18
and make that ultimately happen.
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15:20
We had 245 people that were willing
to sign this bill into law,
to sign this bill into law,
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15:24
it wasn't allowed to come forward
under a Republican speaker,
under a Republican speaker,
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15:28
and also the current Democratic speaker
hasn't brought this bill
hasn't brought this bill
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15:31
through in something
that we would be able to pass.
that we would be able to pass.
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15:34
AM: So I want to close,
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15:36
and you are, perhaps, most famous --
I don't know if that's fair --
I don't know if that's fair --
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but you took a road trip
with Beto O'Rourke
with Beto O'Rourke
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15:43
from your district to Washington, DC,
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15:46
and you've become known
for reaching across the aisle
for reaching across the aisle
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15:48
and engaging in these
bipartisan conversations.
bipartisan conversations.
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15:51
And one of the things
I've seen you say repeatedly
I've seen you say repeatedly
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15:54
is to talk about how we are all united.
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15:58
And I think, when we think
about the language of immigration
about the language of immigration
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16:01
and we start hearing words
about enemies and militarization,
about enemies and militarization,
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16:05
I think the real question is:
How do we convince all Americans
How do we convince all Americans
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16:10
to understand what you say
that more unites us than divides us?
that more unites us than divides us?
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16:16
WH: Crisscrossing a district like mine
that's truly 50-50 --
that's truly 50-50 --
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16:19
50 percent Democrat,
50 percent Republican,
50 percent Republican,
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16:21
it's been very clear to me
that way more unites us than divides us.
that way more unites us than divides us.
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16:25
And if we focus on those things
that we agree on,
that we agree on,
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16:27
we'll all be better off.
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16:28
And I'm not going to get
a perfect attendance award
a perfect attendance award
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16:31
for going to church,
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16:33
but I do remember when Jesus
was in the Second Temple
was in the Second Temple
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16:36
and the Pharisees asked him
what's the most important commandment,
what's the most important commandment,
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16:39
and he said to "Love thy Lord God
with all your heart, mind and soul."
with all your heart, mind and soul."
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16:42
But people forget he also said,
"Equally as important,
"Equally as important,
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16:45
is to love thy neighbor like thyself."
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16:47
And if we remember that
and realize what it would mean,
and realize what it would mean,
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16:52
and what you would
have to be going through
have to be going through
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16:54
to be living in a situation
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16:56
that you may send your child
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,
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17:01
because that's what you think
the only thing for their future,
the only thing for their future,
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17:05
the only thing that you can do
to make sure their future is bright,
to make sure their future is bright,
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17:08
if we all remember that situation,
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17:10
and think what we would do
in that situation,
in that situation,
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17:13
I think we'd also be better off.
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17:15
AM: Thank you, Congressman.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
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17:19
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Will Hurd - PoliticianCongressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso.
Why you should listen
A San Antonio native and Texas A&M Computer Science graduate, Congressman Will Hurd was an undercover officer in the CIA working on national and cybersecurity for nearly a decade. Since his election to Congress in 2014, he has focused on delivering bipartisan results for the 800,000 Texans he calls his "bosses" by working with anyone, regardless of politics and party. Texas Monthly and Politico Magazine have both dubbed him "the Future of the GOP."
Will Hurd | Speaker | TED.com
Anne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime.
Why you should listen
Anne Milgram is focused on reforming systems through smart data, analytics and technology. She is currently a Professor of Practice and Distinguished Scholar in Residence at New York University School of Law, where she is building a Criminal Justice Innovation Lab, dedicated to using data and technology to transform the American criminal justice system. She also teaches seminars on criminal justice policy and human trafficking. Milgram began her career as a criminal prosecutor, serving in state, local and federal prosecution offices. She then became the Attorney General of the State of New Jersey, where she served as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for the State and oversaw the Camden Police Department.
Though her work, Milgram seeks to bring the best of the modern world -- data, technology and analytics -- to bear in an effort to transform outdated systems and practices. Milgram is centered on creating a paradigm shift in how we think about innovation and reform in the criminal justice system and beyond.
Milgram graduated summa cum laude from Rutgers University and holds a Master of Philosophy in social and political theory from the University of Cambridge. She received her law degree from New York University School of Law.
Anne Milgram | Speaker | TED.com