ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Gretchen Carlson - TV journalist, women's empowerment advocate
Gretchen Carlson is a tireless advocate for workplace equality and women's empowerment.

Why you should listen

Named one of TIME's 100 Most Influential People in the World for 2017, Gretchen Carlson is one of the nation's most highly acclaimed journalists and a warrior for women. In 2016, Carlson became the face of sexual harassment in the workplace after her lawsuit against Fox News Chairman and CEO Roger Ailes paved the way for thousands of other women facing harassment to tell their stories. Carlson's advocacy put her on the cover of TIME, and her new book, Be Fierce: Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back, joined the New York Times best-seller list the week it was published. She became a columnist for TIME's online "Motto" newsletter in 2017, focusing on gender and empowerment issues.

Carlson's ongoing work on behalf of women includes advocating for arbitration reform on Capitol Hill; in 2018, she plans to testify before Congress about workplace inequality and forced arbitration clauses in employment contracts. Carlson also created the Gift of Courage Fund and the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative to support empowerment, advocacy and anti-harassment programs for girls and underserved women.

Carlson hosted "The Real Story" on Fox News for three years; co-hosted "Fox and Friends" for seven years; and in her first book, Getting Real, became a national best-seller. She co-hosted "The Saturday Early Show" for CBS in 2000 and served as a CBS News correspondent covering stories including Geneoa's G-8 Summit, Timothy McVeigh’s execution, 9/11 from the World Trade Center and the Bush-Gore election. She started her reporting career in Richmond, Virginia, then served as an anchor and reporter in Cincinnati, Cleveland and Dallas, where she produced and reported a 30-part series on domestic violence that won several national awards.

An honors graduate of Stanford University, Carlson was valedictorian of her high school class and studied at Oxford University in England. A child prodigy on the violin, she performed as a soloist with the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra at age 13, and in 1989, became the first classical violinist to win the Miss America crown.

Ever grateful for the opportunities provided to her and imbued with a "never give up" attitude, Carlson has mentored dozens of young women throughout her career. She serves as a national trustee for the March of Dimes, a member of the board of directors for the Catherine Violet Hubbard Animal Sanctuary in Newtown, Connecticut and a trustee of Greenwich Academy, an all-girls preparatory day school in Greenwich, Connecticut. Carlson is married to sports agent Casey Close and mom to their two children.

More profile about the speaker
Gretchen Carlson | Speaker | TED.com
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir - Gospel ensemble
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is an influential source of education and self-development for young people.

Why you should listen

Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is a celebrated group of performers elevated from the Mama Foundation for the Arts' Music School of Gospel, Jazz and R&B. The Foundation, founded by the writer/producer of Mama, I Want to Sing!, is a highly respected and influential source of education and self-development for young people. The award-winning, nationally recognized program offers performance choirs small, medium, and large and has been seen accompanying many of today's pop icons including Ariana Grande, Chance the Rapper, Pharrell Williams, Alessia Cara and Madonna.

In addition to various performances and collaborations throughout New York City, the choir enjoys weekly performances in Harlem. They can be seen every Sunday headlining Ginny Supper Club's Gospel Brunch at Marcus Samuelson's acclaimed restaurant, Red Rooster, which is ranked one of the top five gospel brunches in the nation. The choir will begin Saturday performances in The Harlem Gospel Concert Series beginning April 15th at The Dempsey Theater in Harlem.

More profile about the speaker
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir | Speaker | TED.com
David Brooks - Op-ed columnist
Writer and thinker David Brooks has covered business, crime and politics over a long career in journalism.

Why you should listen

David Brooks became an Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times in September 2003. He is currently a commentator on "The PBS Newshour," NPR’s "All Things Considered" and NBC's "Meet the Press."

He is the author of Bobos in Paradise and The Social Animal. In April 2015, he released with his fourth book, The Road to Character, which was a #1 New York Times bestseller.

Brooks also teaches at Yale University, and is a member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.

Born on August 11, 1961 in Toronto, Canada, Brooks graduated a bachelor of history from the University of Chicago in 1983. He became a police reporter for the City News Bureau, a wire service owned jointly by the Chicago Tribune and Sun-Times.

He worked at The Washington Times and then The Wall Street Journal for nine years. His last post at the Journal was as Op-ed Editor. Prior to that, he was posted in Brussels, covering Russia, the Middle East, South Africa and European affairs. His first post at the Journal was as editor of the book review section, and he filled in as the Journal's movie critic.

He also served as a senior editor at The Weekly Standard for 9 years, as well as contributing editor for The Atlantic and Newsweek.

More profile about the speaker
David Brooks | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.

Why you should listen

Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.

Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.

Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.

Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.

This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.

He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.

In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.

Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.

More profile about the speaker
Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com
TED Dialogues

Gretchen Carlson, David Brooks: Political common ground in a polarized United States

葛蕾琴·卡森, 大偉·布庫斯: 兩極分化美國的政治共識

Filmed:
1,044,128 views

面對左右兩派分歧,如何通過更睿智、更有效的政治對話來彌合鴻溝? 記者葛蕾琴·卡森和專欄作家大偉·布庫斯各自分享對當下美國政治核心緊張局勢的見解,以及如何著手找到共識。 節目最後獻上的是維恩·喜金絲率領的哈林福音合唱團演唱的《美哉,美國》。
- TV journalist, women's empowerment advocate
Gretchen Carlson is a tireless advocate for workplace equality and women's empowerment. Full bio - Gospel ensemble
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is an influential source of education and self-development for young people. Full bio - Op-ed columnist
Writer and thinker David Brooks has covered business, crime and politics over a long career in journalism. Full bio - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
Chris克裡斯 Anderson安德森: Welcome歡迎
to this next下一個 edition of TEDTED Dialogues對話.
0
968
4612
克里斯·安德森(CA):
歡迎來到新一期的 TED 對話。
00:17
We're trying to do
some bridging橋接 here today今天.
1
5604
3066
今天我們準備溝通天地,連接你我。
大家都知道,多年來美國夢激勵了
00:20
You know, the American美國 dream夢想
has inspired啟發 millions百萬 of people
2
8694
2920
遍佈世界各地數百萬人。
00:23
around the world世界 for many許多 years年份.
3
11638
2760
00:26
Today今天, I think, you can say
that America美國 is divided分為,
4
14937
5717
而如今,我覺得可以說美國是分裂的,
可能比以往更甚;
00:32
perhaps也許 more than ever,
5
20678
1661
00:34
and the divisions seem似乎
to be getting得到 worse更差.
6
22363
2055
而且分歧也越來越糟。
說真的,各個陣營的人
00:36
It's actually其實 really hard
for people on different不同 sides雙方
7
24442
3841
都很難進行一場對話。
00:40
to even have a conversation會話.
8
28307
1454
00:41
People almost幾乎 feel...
9
29785
2312
人們幾乎是......
討厭彼此,
00:44
disgusted厭惡的 with each other.
10
32121
1646
當下的有些家庭甚至互不講話。
00:46
Some families家庭 can't even speak說話
to each other right now.
11
34648
3224
00:51
Our purpose目的 in this dialogue對話 today今天
is to try to do something about that,
12
39681
4548
這個對話的目的就是為此做點什麼,
嘗試不同方式的交流,
00:56
to try to have a different不同 kind
of conversation會話,
13
44253
2660
00:58
to do some listening, some thinking思維,
some understanding理解.
14
46937
4241
有傾聽,有思考,還有理解。
01:03
And I have two people with us
to help us do that.
15
51202
3428
今天將有兩位嘉賓
來幫助我們一起做這件事。
01:06
They're not going to come at this
hammer錘子 and tong against反對 each other.
16
54654
3239
他們今天不會唇槍舌戰,
這裡也不像有線電視新聞節目。
01:09
This is not like cable電纜 news新聞.
17
57917
1764
01:11
This is two people who have both spent花費
a lot of their working加工 life
18
59705
5493
這二位在職業生涯中很多時間
持政治中立或者中立稍偏右態度。
01:17
in the political政治 center中央
or right of the center中央.
19
65222
2287
01:19
They've他們已經 immersed沉浸 themselves他們自己
in conservative保守 worldviews世界觀, if you like.
20
67533
3964
你也可以理解為,他們
沉浸在保守的世界觀中,
01:23
They know that space空間 very well.
21
71521
2123
他們對這個很在行。
01:25
And we're going to explore探索 together一起
22
73668
1709
接下來,我們將一起探討
如何看待時下所發生的事情,
01:27
how to think about
what is happening事件 right now,
23
75401
3021
01:30
and whether是否 we can find new ways方法 to bridge
24
78446
3145
能否搭橋找到新的契機,
01:33
and just to have wiser聰明,
more connected連接的 conversations對話.
25
81615
3217
只為了建立更睿智、更有效的溝通。
01:36
With me, first of all, Gretchen格雷琴 Carlson卡爾森,
26
84856
3103
首先有請葛蕾琴·卡森,
她在福克斯新聞工作了十年,
01:39
who has spent花費 a decade
working加工 at Fox狐狸 News新聞,
27
87983
5290
01:45
hosting託管 "Fox狐狸 and Friends"
and then "The Real真實 Story故事,"
28
93297
4478
在她勇敢地指控
羅傑斯·艾爾斯性騷擾前,
01:49
before taking服用 a courageous勇敢 stance姿態
in filing備案 sexual有性 harassment騷擾 claims索賠
29
97799
5773
她先是主持《福克斯和朋友們》,
然後主持《實話實説》新聞節目,
01:55
against反對 Roger羅傑 Ailes羅傑·艾爾斯,
30
103596
1216
她的指控最終導致
羅傑斯·艾爾斯離開福克斯新聞。
01:56
which哪一個 eventually終於 led
to his departure離開 from Fox狐狸 News新聞.
31
104836
3365
另一位是大偉·布庫斯,
02:00
David大衛 Brooks布魯克斯, who has earned the wrath憤怒
32
108662
2803
因其保守觀點,引發眾多
02:03
of many許多 of [The New York紐約 Times's時代]
left-leaning左傾 readers讀者
33
111489
2914
《紐約時報》左傾讀者的憤怒;
02:06
because of his conservative保守 views意見,
34
114427
2888
02:09
and more recently最近, perhaps也許,
some of the right-leaning偏右翼 readers讀者
35
117339
2934
就在最近,可能因其
對川普某些方面的批評,
有些右傾讀者
也加入聲討他的行列中。
02:12
because of his criticism批評
of some aspects方面 of Trump王牌.
36
120297
3267
但是,他的專欄
02:16
Yet然而, his columns are usually平時
37
124348
2376
02:18
the top最佳 one, two or three
most-read最閱讀 content內容 of the day
38
126748
4396
通常是每日閱讀量的前三,
原因就在於內容精彩,
02:23
because they're brilliant輝煌,
39
131168
1240
因為他從心理學和社會科學角度,
02:24
because they bring帶來 psychology心理學
and social社會 science科學
40
132432
2299
02:26
to providing提供 understanding理解
for what's going on.
41
134755
3453
讓人們明白當下發生的事情。
話不多說,熱烈歡迎葛蕾琴和大偉。
02:30
So without further進一步 ado忙亂, a huge巨大 welcome歡迎
to Gretchen格雷琴 and David大衛.
42
138232
3273
02:33
Come and join加入 me.
43
141529
1158
請坐。
02:34
(Applause掌聲)
44
142711
3713
(掌聲)
02:38
So, Gretchen格雷琴.
45
146448
2366
葛蕾琴,
6300 萬的美國人選出了唐納•川普,
02:41
Sixty-three六十三 million百萬 Americans美國人
voted for Donald唐納德 Trump王牌.
46
149474
4055
02:46
Why did they do this?
47
154505
1714
他們為什麼這麼做?
葛蕾琴:在我看來,
有很多因素導致為什麼會這樣。
02:48
Gretchen格雷琴 Carlson卡爾森: There are a lot
of reasons原因, in my mind心神, why it happened發生.
48
156243
3520
我是想說這是一種運動,
但早些年就開始了,
02:51
I mean, I think it was a movement運動
of sorts排序, but it started開始 long ago.
49
159787
3275
02:55
It didn't just happen發生 overnight過夜.
50
163086
1808
這不是一夜之間發生的。
02:56
"Anger憤怒" would be the first word
that I would think of --
51
164918
2911
「憤怒」是我想到的第一個詞,
對政府的不作為感到憤怒,
02:59
anger憤怒 with nothing
being存在 doneDONE in Washington華盛頓,
52
167853
4263
對自己的聲音沒人理會感到憤怒。
03:04
anger憤怒 about not being存在 heard聽說.
53
172140
3064
03:07
I think there was a huge巨大 swath大片
of the population人口
54
175976
2395
我覺得有一大群怒火中燒的人,
03:10
that feels感覺 like Washington華盛頓
never listens監聽 to them,
55
178395
2749
感覺政府從來不聽他們的心聲;
03:13
you know, a good part部分 of the middle中間
of America美國, not just the coasts海岸,
56
181168
4234
有很大一部分是美國中部的,
不只是在沿海地區,
03:17
and he was somebody they felt
was listening to their concerns關注.
57
185426
4209
川普讓這些人覺得
他在傾聽他們的訴求。
所以我認為這兩個是主要原因。
03:22
So I think those two issues問題
would be the main主要 reason原因.
58
190156
4226
當然還要考慮他是名人,
03:26
I have to throw in there also celebrity名人.
59
194406
2050
03:29
I think that had a huge巨大 impact碰撞
on Donald唐納德 Trump王牌 becoming變得 president主席.
60
197392
5666
我認為這對唐納•川普
成為總統有很大的影響。
03:35
CACA: Was the anger憤怒 justified有理?
61
203082
2630
CA:「憤怒」有道理嗎?
03:38
David大衛 Brooks布魯克斯: Yeah, I think so.
62
206051
1573
大偉(CB):是的,我認為有道理。
03:39
In 2015 and early 2016,
I wrote about 30 columns
63
207648
4074
在 2015 年和 2016 年初,
我大概寫了 30 篇專欄文章,
03:43
with the following以下 theme主題:
64
211746
1351
有關以下主題:
03:45
don't worry擔心, Donald唐納德 Trump王牌 will never
be the Republican共和黨人 nominee被提名人.
65
213121
2987
別擔心,唐納•川普
不會被共和黨提名。
(笑聲)
03:48
(Laughter笑聲)
66
216132
1160
03:49
And having doneDONE that
and gotten得到 that so wrong錯誤,
67
217316
2198
這樣做的結局很糟糕,
我決定接下來一年專注於川普世界,
03:51
I decided決定 to spend the ensuing隨後 year
just out in Trumpworld特朗普世界,
68
219538
3184
03:54
and I found發現 a lot of economic經濟 dislocation錯位.
69
222746
2870
還發現很多經濟失調的問題。
03:57
I ran into a woman女人 in West西 Virginia弗吉尼亞州
who was going to a funeral葬禮 for her mom媽媽.
70
225640
3570
我在維吉尼亞州遇到一位女士,
她要去參加母親的葬禮。
她說:「身為天主教徒的好處
是我們不必說話,
04:01
She said, "The nice不錯 thing about
being存在 Catholic天主教徒 is we don't have to speak說話,
71
229234
3468
這很好,因為我們不是
善於舞文弄墨的人。」
04:04
and that's good,
because we're not word people."
72
232726
2272
04:07
That phrase短語 rung梯級 in my head: word people.
73
235022
1982
那句話一直在我腦海裡迴響:
舞文弄墨的人。
04:09
A lot of us in the TEDTED community社區
are word people,
74
237028
2776
我們 TED 論壇很多人
都是和文字打交道的,
04:11
but if you're not, the economy經濟
has not been angled斜角 toward you,
75
239828
3127
如果不是,經濟不會站在你這邊;
04:14
and so 11 million百萬 men男人, for example,
are out of the labor勞動 force
76
242979
3637
比方説,1100 萬人失業了,
04:18
because those jobs工作 are doneDONE away.
77
246640
1609
因為這些工作已經沒有了,
這對社會傷害很大。
04:20
A lot of social社會 injury.
78
248273
1540
04:21
You used to be able能夠 to say,
"I'm not the richest首富 person in the world世界,
79
249837
3297
你以前會說:
「我不是世界上最有錢的,
也不是最有名的,
04:25
I'm not the most famous著名,
80
253158
1218
但鄰居們可以仰賴我,
我也以此為傲。」
04:26
but my neighbors鄰居 can count計數 on me
and I get some dignity尊嚴 out of that."
81
254400
3305
要不是遇上烏鴉
變鳳凰這些個有的沒的,
04:29
And because of celebritificationcelebritification
or whatever隨你, if you're not rich豐富 or famous著名,
82
257729
3554
倘若沒錢無名,你覺得
自己被當成空氣了。
04:33
you feel invisible無形.
83
261307
1158
04:34
And a lot of moral道德 injury,
sense of feeling感覺 betrayed背叛,
84
262489
3312
還有道德上的傷害,感覺被背叛了,
04:37
and frankly坦率地說, in this country國家,
we almost幾乎 have one success成功 story故事,
85
265825
3855
坦率地說,在這個國家,
我們幾乎有個成功的故事:
那就是你上完大學,
找份白領的工作,你就是成功的;
04:41
which哪一個 is you go to college學院, get
a white-collar白領 job工作, and you're a success成功,
86
269704
3570
04:45
and if you don't fit適合 in that formula,
87
273298
2088
但如果你不符合那個流程,
04:47
you feel like you're not respected尊敬.
88
275410
1757
你會覺得被看不起。
所以,當經過歲月的蹉跎,
04:49
And so that accumulation積累 of things --
89
277191
1818
我問起川普的選民,
現在也還在問,
04:51
and when I talked to Trump王牌
voters選民 and still do,
90
279033
2192
我發現大多數人
對他的失敗都超現實,
04:53
I found發現 most of them completely全然
realistic實際 about his failings缺點,
91
281249
3685
04:56
but they said, this is my shot射擊.
92
284958
1638
不過他們說,這是我的機會。
GC:但是我知道他會被提名,
04:59
GCGC: And yet然而 I predicted預料到的
that he would be the nominee被提名人,
93
287334
3246
05:02
because I've known已知 him for 27 years年份.
94
290604
2184
因為我認識他都27年了。
他是一個行銷大師。
05:04
He's a master marketer營銷,
95
292812
1790
有件事他做得非常好,
05:06
and one of the things
he did extremely非常 well
96
294626
2003
奧巴馬總統也做得不錯,
05:08
that President主席 Obama奧巴馬 also did
extremely非常 well,
97
296653
2194
就是簡化了資訊消息,
05:10
was simplifying簡化 the message信息,
98
298871
2038
簡單到口號
05:12
simplifying簡化 down to phrases短語
99
300933
2788
和親民的短消息。
05:15
and to a populist民粹主義 message信息.
100
303745
2049
05:17
Even if he can't achieve實現 it,
it sounded滿面 good.
101
305818
2725
就算他難以兌現承諾,但聽起來不錯。
於是很多人再次理解這種簡約,
05:21
And many許多 people latched鎖存 on
to that simplicity簡單 again.
102
309575
3230
05:24
It's something they could grasp把握 onto:
103
312829
1945
這是他們可以理解的:
05:26
"I get that. I want that.
That sounds聲音 fantastic奇妙."
104
314798
3397
「我懂,要的就是這個,
聽起來太棒了。」
05:30
And I remember記得 when he used to come
on my show顯示 originally本來,
105
318951
2924
我還記得他早年來上我的節目,
那時《誰是接班人》節目
遠不像現在眾所周知,
05:33
before "The Apprentice學徒"
was even "The Apprentice學徒,"
106
321899
2401
他會說這是排名第一的電視節目。
05:36
and he'd他會 say it was the number
one show顯示 on TV電視.
107
324324
2179
我回他說:「不,根本不是。」
05:38
I'd say back to him, "No, it's not."
108
326527
1757
他會說:「是第一,葛蕾琴。」
05:40
And he would say, "Yes it is, Gretchen格雷琴."
109
328308
1910
我會說:「就不是的。」
05:42
And I would say, "No it's not."
110
330242
1884
05:44
But people at home would see that,
and they'd他們會 be like,
111
332150
2535
但人們在家會看這個節目而且會說:
「哇,我應該看看這個
第一名的電視節目。」
05:46
"Wow, I should be watching觀看
the number one show顯示 on TV電視."
112
334709
2576
05:49
And -- lo and behold不料 -- it became成為
the number one show顯示 on TV電視.
113
337309
2953
你瞧,《誰是接班人》還真成了
第一熱門的電視節目。
05:52
So he had this, I've seen看到
this ability能力 in him
114
340286
3302
所以他很有一套,
我在他身上看到了
成為營銷大師的能力。
05:55
to be the master marketer營銷.
115
343612
2198
CA:對許多左派來說,
令人困惑的是:
05:57
CACA: It's puzzling令人費解
to a lot of people on the left
116
345834
2584
儘管他說了一些侮辱女性言論,
06:00
that so many許多 women婦女 voted for him,
117
348442
3259
很多女性還是投了贊成票。
06:03
despite儘管 some of his comments註釋.
118
351725
1537
06:05
GCGC: I wrote a column
about this for Time Motto座右銘,
119
353286
2715
GC:我就此給《時代週刊》的
〈Motto 〉欄目寫過專欄,
06:08
saying that I really believe
that lot of people put on blinders一葉障目,
120
356025
4292
在文章中寫到,我真的相信
很多人對此選擇視而不見,
06:13
and maybe for the first time,
121
361324
2859
也許是有生的第一次,
06:16
some people decided決定
that policies政策 they believed相信 in
122
364207
2772
有人認為他們所相信的政策
能被聽到而不是視而不見
06:19
and being存在 heard聽說
and not being存在 invisible無形 anymore
123
367003
2548
06:21
was more important重要 to them
124
369575
1951
對他們來說更重要,
06:23
than the way in which哪一個 he had acted行動
or acts行為 as a human人的.
125
371550
3576
這些比起川普作為一個
普通人的行為不妥更重要,
06:27
And so human人的 dignity尊嚴 --
126
375911
2048
至於人格——
無論是關於殘障記者的口水戰,
06:29
whether是否 it would be the dust-up佈滿灰塵
about the disabled reporter記者,
127
377983
3468
06:33
or what happened發生
in that audiotape錄音帶 with Billy比利 Bush襯套
128
381475
2540
還是對比利·布希的錄音帶事件,
06:36
and the way in which哪一個 he spoke
about women婦女 --
129
384039
2205
當然還有他調侃女人的方式;
06:39
they put that aside在旁邊
130
387301
1947
他們就把它擱到一邊,
裝聾作啞或視而不見。
06:41
and pretended假裝的 as if
they hadn't有沒有 seen看到 that or heard聽說 that,
131
389272
2621
06:43
because to them,
policies政策 were more important重要.
132
391917
4036
對他們來說,政策才更重要。
06:47
CACA: Right, so just because
someone有人 voted for Trump王牌,
133
395977
2811
CA:是的,這些人投票支持川普,
06:50
it's not blind adherence附著 to everything
that he's said or stood站在 for.
134
398812
3727
也並非盲目地堅持他所說的一切。
GC:不是的,我聽到很多人對我說,
06:54
GCGC: No. I heard聽說 a lot of people
that would say to me,
135
402563
2822
「天呐,我就希望選舉前他能閉嘴,
06:57
"Wow, I just wish希望 he would shut關閉 up
before the election選舉.
136
405409
3063
07:00
If he would just stay quiet安靜,
he'd他會 get elected當選."
137
408496
2702
只要他閉嘴別亂說,會當選的。」
CA:所以對左派來說,
認為裡面有貓膩,
07:04
CACA: And so, maybe for people on the left
there's a trap陷阱 there,
138
412083
2937
有點鄙視她們支持川普
或者說被搞糊塗了,
07:07
to sort分類 of despise討厭
or just be baffled困惑 by the support支持,
139
415044
5578
07:12
assuming假設 that it's for some
of the unattractive沒有吸引力 features特徵.
140
420646
3084
以為是因為一些沒有新意的觀點,
實際上就算有這些,
他們也還是會支持他,
07:15
Actually其實, maybe they're supporting支持
him despite儘管 those,
141
423754
2545
因為他們看到了令人振奮的東西,
07:18
because they see something exciting扣人心弦.
142
426323
1786
人們看到了實幹家。
07:20
They see a man of action行動.
143
428133
1342
07:21
They see the choking窒息的 hold保持 of government政府
being存在 thrown拋出 off in some way
144
429499
5058
他們看到政府桎梏就這麽被甩掉,
人們對此感到興奮。
07:26
and they're excited興奮 by that.
145
434581
1339
GC:但別忘了我們在左派人士
伯尼·桑德斯身上也看到了這些。
07:27
GCGC: But don't forget忘記 we saw that
on the left as well -- Bernie伯尼 Sanders桑德斯.
146
435944
3376
這就是我覺得今天
可以拿來談論的共通處之一,
07:31
So this is one of the commonalities共性
that I think we can talk about today今天,
147
439344
3954
《局外人的一年》,大偉,對嗎?
07:35
"The Year of the Outsider局外人,"
David大衛 -- right?
148
443322
3043
儘管伯尼·桑德斯
在國會有些時間了,
07:39
And even though雖然 Bernie伯尼 Sanders桑德斯
has been in Congress國會 for a long time,
149
447003
3265
但這次他被當做局外人。
07:42
he was deemed認為 an outsider局外人 this time.
150
450292
2213
07:44
And so there was anger憤怒
on the left as well,
151
452529
2342
所以左派也很憤怒,
07:46
and so many許多 people were in favor偏愛
of Bernie伯尼 Sanders桑德斯.
152
454895
3451
有那麽多人支持伯尼·桑德斯。
我認為它有共通性。
07:50
So I see it as a commonality共性.
153
458854
3888
07:54
People who like Trump王牌,
people who like Bernie伯尼 Sanders桑德斯,
154
462766
2579
喜歡川普的人,
喜歡伯尼·桑德斯的人,
他們喜歡不同的政策,
但深層次的卻是憤怒。
07:57
they were liking喜歡 different不同 policies政策,
but the underpinning托底 was anger憤怒.
155
465369
3803
08:01
CACA: David大衛, there's often經常
this narrative敘述, then,
156
469196
4570
CA:大偉,總是有這麽個説法,
08:05
that the sole唯一 explanation說明
for Trump's特朗普的 victory勝利 and his rise上升
157
473790
5191
對川普勝利及崛起的唯一正解
08:11
is his tapping竊聽 into anger憤怒
in a very visceral內臟 way.
158
479005
4952
就是他對憤怒者直達心扉。
08:15
But you've written書面 a bit about
that it's actually其實 more than that,
159
483981
4658
但你也寫到實際上不止這些,
還有個現行的世界觀。
08:20
that there's a worldview世界觀
that's being存在 worked工作 on here.
160
488663
3198
08:23
Could you talk about that?
161
491885
1273
你要不來講講?
DB:坦白說,我會說
川普明白我不懂的東西,
08:25
DBD B: I would say he understood了解 what,
frankly坦率地說, I didn't,
162
493182
2555
這正是我們在辯論的內容。
08:27
which哪一個 is what debate辯論 we were having.
163
495761
1856
08:29
And so I'd grown長大的 up starting開始 with Reagan裡根,
164
497641
2433
我成長於雷根時代,
08:32
and it was the big government政府
versus small government政府 debate辯論.
165
500098
2904
是大小政府間的辯論。
08:35
It was Barry巴里 Goldwater高華德
versus George喬治 McGovern麥戈文,
166
503026
2189
貝利·高華德對喬治·麥戈文,
08:37
and that was the debate辯論
we had been having for a generation.
167
505239
4105
是我們那代人的討論。
08:41
It was: Democrats民主黨 wanted to use
government政府 to enhance提高 equality平等,
168
509368
4165
那就是:民主黨人想讓政府加強平等;
共和黨人想限制政府來提高自由,
08:45
Republicans共和黨人 wanted to limit限制 government政府
to enhance提高 freedom自由.
169
513557
2748
這就是那時的辯論。
08:48
That was the debate辯論.
170
516329
1183
他曉得而我覺得兩大黨派卻沒搞懂,
08:49
He understood了解 what I think
the two major重大的 parties派對 did not,
171
517536
2810
08:52
which哪一個 was that's not the debate辯論 anymore.
172
520370
1944
那就是再也不必辯論了。
08:54
The debate辯論 is now open打開 versus closed關閉.
173
522338
2329
現在的爭議是開放對封閉。
08:56
On one side are those who have
the tailwinds順風 of globalization全球化
174
524691
3266
一方是全球化風生水起
及背後強大的精英團隊;
08:59
and the meritocracy任人唯賢 blowing at their back,
175
527981
2233
09:02
and they tend趨向 to favor偏愛 open打開 trade貿易,
176
530238
2399
他們傾向於自由貿易、
開放的邊界、開放的公序良俗,
09:04
open打開 borders國界, open打開 social社會 mores習俗,
177
532661
1985
因為這樣做有很多機會。
09:06
because there are so many許多 opportunities機會.
178
534670
1962
09:08
On the other side are those
who feel the headwinds逆風 of globalization全球化
179
536656
3456
另一方是那些逆全球化
09:12
and the meritocracy任人唯賢
just blasting爆破 in their faces面孔,
180
540136
2392
衝著精英主義者正面打臉,
09:14
and they favor偏愛 closed關閉 trade貿易,
closed關閉 borders國界, closed關閉 social社會 mores習俗,
181
542552
3931
他們喜歡封閉的貿易、
封閉邊界、封閉的社會道德,
09:18
because they just want some security安全.
182
546507
2091
因為他們只想要安全。
所以他在這個根本問題上是對的,
09:20
And so he was right
on that fundamental基本的 issue問題,
183
548622
2144
09:22
and people were willing願意
to overlook俯瞰 a lot to get there.
184
550790
2652
人們為了這個安全願意忽視些東西。
09:25
And so he felt that sense of security安全.
185
553466
2107
他有種給人安全的感覺。
09:27
We're speaking請講 the morning早上 after
Trump's特朗普的 joint聯合 session會議 speech言語.
186
555597
4329
在川普聯合會議發言後的
第二天早上,我們說過:
09:31
There are three traditional傳統
groups in the Republican共和黨人 Party派對.
187
559950
2826
共和黨有三個傳統團體,
09:34
There are the foreign國外 policies政策 hawks鷹派
188
562800
1778
有外交鷹派,
相信美國是全球警衛,
09:36
who believe in America美國
as global全球 policeman警察.
189
564602
2055
川普完全否認這觀點。
09:38
Trump王牌 totally完全 repudiated否定 that view視圖.
190
566681
1853
09:40
Second第二, there was the social社會 conservatives保守派
191
568558
2046
其次,有社會保守派,
09:42
who believed相信 in religious宗教 liberty自由,
192
570628
1707
相信宗教自由、
09:44
pro-life親生活,
193
572359
1913
反墮胎、
允許校內禱告。
09:46
prayer禱告 in schools學校.
194
574296
2469
09:49
He totally完全 ignored忽視 that.
195
577710
1645
他完全忽視這點,
09:51
There was not a single mention提到
of a single social社會 conservative保守 issue問題.
196
579379
3435
對於任何社會保守問題都隻字未提。
剩下就是財富鷹派,
09:54
And then there were the fiscal hawks鷹派,
197
582838
1819
09:56
the people who wanted to cut down
on the national國民 debt債務, Tea Party派對,
198
584681
3118
那些想減少國債的人,
茶黨要求削減政府規模;
09:59
cut the size尺寸 of government政府.
199
587823
1306
而川普在擴大政府規模!
10:01
He's expanding擴大 the size尺寸 of government政府!
200
589153
1855
就這麽個人,他隻手
革了美國主要政黨的命,
10:03
Here's這裡的 a man who has single-handedly一手
revolutionized革命性 a major重大的 American美國 party派對
201
591032
3682
因為他比其他人更早知道
10:06
because he understood了解
where the debate辯論 was headed當家
202
594738
2973
10:09
before other people.
203
597735
1347
辯論的方向。
10:11
And then guys like Steve史蒂夫 Bannon班農 come in
204
599106
2015
像史蒂芬·班農這樣的人參與進來,
10:13
and give him substance物質 to his impulses衝動.
205
601145
2027
給川普的口號提供實質行動支持。
10:16
CACA: And so take that a bit further進一步,
206
604207
1769
CA:再往深處談一下,
10:18
and maybe expand擴大 a bit more
on your insights見解
207
606000
3755
也許可以拓展下你們的看法,
10:21
into Steve史蒂夫 Bannon's班農的 worldview世界觀.
208
609779
2263
有關史蒂芬·班農的世界觀。
10:24
Because he's sometimes有時 tarred柏油
in very simple簡單 terms條款
209
612066
2732
有時,他被極簡的方式標注為:
這個危險、種族主義者,
排外、怒火中燒的傢伙。
10:26
as this dangerous危險, racist種族主義者,
xenophobic排外, anger-sparking憤怒的火花 person.
210
614822
6611
10:33
There's more to the story故事;
that is perhaps也許 an unfair不公平 simplification簡單化.
211
621457
4516
但故事沒那麽簡單;
這種簡化相當不公平。
DB:我覺得這部分是對的,
10:37
DBD B: I think that part部分 is true真正,
212
625997
1436
10:39
but there's another另一個 part部分
that's probably大概 true真正, too.
213
627457
2470
但另外部分也沒錯。
他是全球化運動的一部分,
10:41
He's part部分 of a global全球 movement運動.
214
629951
2160
10:44
It's like being存在 around Marxists馬克思 主義 者 in 1917.
215
632135
2685
就像 1917 年的馬克思主義運動一樣。
他所處的時代有英國獨立黨,
還有法國國民陣線,
10:46
There's him here, there's the UKIP烏基普 party派對,
there's the National國民 Front面前 in France法國,
216
634844
4196
有普京,有土耳其、菲律賓的版本。
10:51
there's Putin普京, there's a Turkish土耳其 version,
a Philippine菲律賓 version.
217
639064
3045
所以我們得認識到
這是全球的知性運動。
10:54
So we have to recognize認識 that this
is a global全球 intellectual知識分子 movement運動.
218
642133
3471
10:57
And it believes相信
219
645628
1215
人們認為,
10:58
that wisdom智慧 and virtue美德 is not held保持
in individual個人 conversation會話 and civility禮貌
220
646867
5257
有些人的言談舉止毫無德智可言,
11:04
the way a lot of us
in the enlightenment啟示 side of the world世界 do.
221
652148
3402
與我們很多人所遵循的
世界啟蒙信條不同。
這些美德就在人民中,
德語中「Volk」是人民,
11:07
It's held保持 in -- the German德語 word
is the "volk沃爾克" -- in the people,
222
655574
3578
就藏在樸實平常的普通百姓
與生俱來的智慧裡,
11:11
in the common共同, instinctive直覺的 wisdom智慧
of the plain people.
223
659176
2860
而人們的重要美德
總受到外界的威脅。
11:14
And the essential必要 virtue美德 of that people
is always being存在 threatened受威脅 by outsiders外人.
224
662730
4948
而他知道如何達到目的,
11:19
And he's got a strategy戰略
for how to get there.
225
667702
2683
11:22
He's got a series系列 of policies政策
to bring帶來 the people up
226
670409
4028
他有一套政策引導人們,
而不去理會外界,
11:26
and repudiate否認 the outsiders外人,
227
674461
2326
11:28
whether是否 those outsiders外人
are Islam伊斯蘭教, Mexicans墨西哥人, the media媒體,
228
676811
4769
不管外界是伊斯蘭、墨西哥人、媒體,
還是東西海岸的精英們...
11:33
the coastal沿海 elites精英...
229
681604
1870
11:35
And there's a whole整個 worldview世界觀 there;
it's a very coherent相干 worldview世界觀.
230
683498
3313
這裡有完整的世界觀;
一氣呵成的世界觀。
11:38
I sort分類 of have more respect尊重 for him.
231
686835
1899
我多少有點尊敬他。
11:40
I loathe厭惡 what he stands站立 for
and I think he's wrong錯誤 on the substance物質,
232
688758
3251
我厭惡他的主張,
認為他本質上不對,
不過看到川普這樣有想法的人
11:44
but it's interesting有趣 to see someone有人
with a set of ideas思路
233
692033
2707
找到實現的途徑也很有意思,
11:46
find a vehicle車輛, Donald唐納德 Trump王牌,
234
694764
1973
11:48
and then try to take control控制
of the White白色 House
235
696761
3118
他試圖控制白宮
11:51
in order訂購 to advance提前 his viewpoint觀點.
236
699903
2102
以宣揚他的觀點。
11:54
CACA: So it's almost幾乎 become成為, like,
that the core核心 question of our time now is:
237
702029
4826
CA:所以成為當下的核心問題是:
11:58
Can you be patriotic愛國
but also have a global全球 mindset心態?
238
706879
5021
你能夠同時擁有全球化
和愛國的心嗎?
這兩件事水火不容嗎?
12:03
Are these two things
implacablyimplacably opposed反對 to each other?
239
711924
4271
12:08
I mean, a lot of conservatives保守派
240
716219
3461
我是說,很多保守派,
在某種程度上屬於不同範疇,
12:11
and, to the extent程度
that it's a different不同 category類別,
241
719704
2447
12:14
a lot of Trump王牌 supporters支持者,
242
722175
1281
還有很多川普的支持者,
12:15
are infuriated激怒 by the coastal沿海 elites精英
and the globalists全球主義者
243
723480
3926
被東西岸精英
和全球主義者給氣炸了。
12:19
because they see them
as, sort分類 of, not cheering歡呼 for America美國,
244
727430
3986
因為認為他們不站在美國這一邊,
12:23
not embracing擁抱 fully充分 American美國 values.
245
731440
2662
這些人完全不信奉美國價值觀。
12:26
I mean, have you seen看到 that
in your conversations對話 with people,
246
734126
3552
你在與人交流時,是否遇到過,
能體會他們的心態?
12:29
in your understanding理解 of their mindset心態?
247
737702
1904
12:31
GCGC: I do think that there's
a huge巨大 difference區別 between之間 --
248
739630
3201
GC:我覺得是有很大的區別。
12:34
I hate討厭 to put people in categories類別, but,
249
742855
1982
我討厭把人分類,
12:36
Middle中間 America美國 versus
people who live生活 on the coasts海岸.
250
744861
3961
美國中部對照沿海人士。
12:40
It's an entirely完全 different不同 existence存在.
251
748846
2066
這是一個完全不同的現狀。
12:42
And I grew成長 up in Minnesota明尼蘇達, so I have
an understanding理解 of Middle中間 America美國,
252
750936
3666
而且我是在明尼蘇達長大,
所以我對中部很瞭解,
我也從來沒忘記過。
12:46
and I've never forgotten忘記了 it.
253
754626
1356
也許這也就是為什麼
我能體會到出了什麽問題。
12:48
And maybe that's why I have
an understanding理解 of what happened發生 here,
254
756006
3507
因為這些人老覺得
沒人傾聽他們的聲音,
12:51
because those people often經常 feel
like nobody's沒有人是 listening to them,
255
759537
4824
12:56
and that we're only concentrating集中
on California加州 and New York紐約.
256
764385
4488
政府只專注於加州和紐約。
13:00
And so I think that was a huge巨大 reason原因
why Trump王牌 was elected當選.
257
768897
4524
我想這也是川普能當選的很大原因。
13:05
I mean, these people felt like
they were being存在 heard聽說.
258
773445
4088
我的意思是,這些人覺得
終於有人聽到他們的心聲。
13:09
Whether是否 or not patriotism愛國主義 falls下降 into that,
259
777557
4150
愛國主義是否牽涉其中,
我不太清楚。
13:13
I'm not sure about that.
260
781731
1169
但我知道一點:
13:14
I do know one thing:
261
782924
1171
川普昨晚講了很多
不是保守黨的事情。
13:16
a lot of things Trump王牌 talked about
last night are not conservative保守 things.
262
784119
4055
13:20
Had Hillary希拉里 Clinton克林頓 gotten得到 up
and given特定 that speech言語,
263
788198
2477
要是讓希拉蕊•克林頓來做這個演講,
不會有共和黨人起身鼓掌的。
13:22
not one Republican共和黨人 would have
stood站在 up to applaud鼓掌.
264
790699
2357
他提到在基礎設施上要花上萬億,
13:25
I mean, he's talking about spending開支
a trillion dollars美元 on infrastructure基礎設施.
265
793080
3627
那不是保守的觀點。
13:28
That is not a conservative保守 viewpoint觀點.
266
796731
1838
他談到法定產假,
13:30
He talked about government-mandated政府規定
maternity母道 leave離開.
267
798593
2979
超多女人會愛上這點;
這也不是保守觀點。
13:34
A lot of women婦女 may可能 love that;
it's not a conservative保守 viewpoint觀點.
268
802312
3018
這很是讓有些人遐想,
13:37
So it's fascinating迷人
269
805354
1151
13:38
that people who loved喜愛 what his message信息
was during the campaign運動,
270
806529
3700
那些競選期就喜歡他言論的人,
我不確定 ——你覺得
他們現在會如何反應?
13:42
I'm not sure -- how do you
think they'll他們會 react應對 to that?
271
810253
2602
13:44
DBD B: I should say I grew成長 up
in Lower降低 Manhattan曼哈頓,
272
812879
2186
DB:我應該聲明
我在曼哈頓下城區長大,
在 ABC 地毯公司、Strand 書店,
13:47
in the triangle三角形 between之間 ABCABC Carpets地毯,
the Strand Bookstore書店
273
815089
2731
和 Odeon 餐廳間的三角地帶。
13:49
and The Odeon奧迪恩 restaurant餐廳.
274
817844
1314
(笑聲)
13:51
(Laughter笑聲)
275
819182
1631
13:52
GCGC: Come to Minnesota明尼蘇達 sometime某時!
276
820837
1854
GC:有空來明尼蘇達州吧!
13:54
(Laughter笑聲)
277
822715
1233
(笑聲)
CA:夥計,你可是
沿海精英的正牌成員。
13:55
CACA: You are a card-carrying正牌 member會員
of the coastal沿海 elite原種, my man.
278
823972
5650
對他昨晚的演講,你如何評論呢?
14:01
But what did you make
of the speech言語 last night?
279
829646
2252
從面上看起來
14:03
It seemed似乎 to be a move移動
to a more moderate中等 position位置,
280
831922
3447
似乎是朝更溫和前進。
14:07
on the face面對 of it.
281
835393
1151
DB:是的,我覺得
這是川普最好的演講,
14:08
DBD B: Yeah, I thought it
was his best最好 speech言語,
282
836568
2027
打消了他怪伽的形象。
14:10
and it took away the freakishness時還相親相愛 of him.
283
838619
2038
我認為他是個道德怪胎,
14:12
I do think he's a moral道德 freak怪物,
284
840681
1856
14:14
and I think he'll地獄 be undone未完成 by that fact事實,
285
842561
2802
他也將會被以下事實所抵消:
14:17
the fact事實 that he just doesn't know
anything about anything
286
845387
2779
其實他不是什麽都懂,
只是不關心而已。
14:20
and is uncuriousuncurious about it.
287
848190
1253
(笑聲)
14:21
(Laughter笑聲)
288
849467
1093
但如果你拿掉這些小瑕疵,
14:22
But if you take away these minor次要 flaws破綻,
289
850584
2165
我想我們會看到他最棒的一面,
14:24
I think we got to see him at his best最好,
290
852773
2072
14:26
and it was revealing揭示 for me
to see him at his best最好,
291
854869
3118
這就讓我看到他是最好的,
14:30
because to me, it exposed裸露 a central中央
contradiction矛盾 that he's got to confront面對,
292
858011
4517
因為對我來說,這暴露了
他必需面對重要矛盾,
他做的很多事情
就是提供安全保障。
14:34
that a lot of what he's doing
is offering security安全.
293
862552
3004
14:37
So, "I'm ordering排序 closed關閉 borders國界,
294
865580
1798
於是說:「我命令封閉邊界,
我要保護你們,我的人民。」
14:39
I'm going to secure安全 the world世界
for you, for my people."
295
867402
2863
14:42
But then if you actually其實 look
at a lot of his economic經濟 policies政策,
296
870289
3048
但其實,當你看到
他的很多經濟政策,
例如個人醫保帳戶的健保改革,
14:45
like health健康 care關心 reform改革, which哪一個 is about
private私人的 health健康 care關心 accounts賬戶,
297
873361
3781
14:49
that's not security安全, that's risk風險.
298
877166
2865
那不是安全,是個風險。
14:52
Educational教育性 vouchers: that's risk風險.
Deregulation放鬆 管制: that's risk風險.
299
880055
3696
教育憑證:是風險。
去除管制:是風險。
14:55
There's really a contradiction矛盾
between之間 the security安全 of the mindset心態
300
883775
3977
真是互相矛盾:心裡想著安全,
14:59
and a lot of the policies政策,
which哪一個 are very risk-oriented風險導向.
301
887776
2784
可還有那麽多高風險的政策。
15:02
And what I would say, especially特別
having spent花費 this year,
302
890584
3501
而且就在今年,我會說,
15:06
the people in rural鄉村 Minnesota明尼蘇達,
in New Mexico墨西哥 --
303
894109
3865
明尼蘇達州、新墨西哥州的鄉親,
15:09
they've他們已經 got enough足夠 risk風險 in their lives生活.
304
897998
2065
他們的生活壓力很大。
15:12
And so they're going to say,
"No thank you."
305
900087
3315
然後他們會說:「不用了,謝謝你。」
15:15
And I think his health健康 care關心 repeal廢除
will fail失敗 for that reason原因.
306
903426
3768
我認為他的健保廢除議案
會因此而失敗。
CA:儘管你剛才對他的批評,
15:19
CACA: But despite儘管 the criticisms批評
you just made製作 of him,
307
907218
2945
15:22
it does at least最小 seem似乎 that he's listening
308
910187
4212
但看起來他至少有在
廣納雅言;
15:26
to a surprisingly出奇 wide range範圍 of voices聲音;
309
914423
2174
好像是來自各方的雅言。
15:28
it's not like everyone大家
is coming未來 from the same相同 place地點.
310
916621
2771
15:31
And maybe that leads引線 to a certain某些
amount of chaos混沌 and confusion混亂, but --
311
919416
5260
也許這會導致一定的混亂,但是——
GC:其實我並不覺得他有多在聆聽。
15:36
GCGC: I actually其實 don't think he's listening
to a wide range範圍 of voices聲音.
312
924700
3222
我覺得他只聽少數幾個人的,
15:39
I think he's listening to very few少數 people.
313
927946
2030
這是我的感覺。
15:42
That's just my impression印象 of it.
314
930000
1803
我相信他昨晚說的一部分,
15:43
I believe that some of the things
he said last night
315
931827
2455
15:46
had Ivanka伊萬卡 all over them.
316
934306
2023
伊凡卡有全程參與。
所以我相信
他在演講前有聽她的話。
15:48
So I believe he was listening
to her before that speech言語.
317
936353
3914
和隨隨便便發推文的他相比,
昨天晚上川普很義正言辭。
15:52
And he was Teleprompter提示器 Trump王牌
last night, as opposed反對 to Twitter推特 Trump王牌.
318
940291
4223
這就是在我們來此之前,
為什麼我會說:
15:56
And that's why, before we came來了 out here,
319
944538
2125
15:58
I said, "We better check Twitter推特
to see if anything's什麼的 changed."
320
946687
4211
「我們最好檢查推特一下,
看看有沒有變化。」
而且我想大家也得牢記,
16:02
And also I think you have to keep in mind心神
321
950922
2189
他是這麽個有個性的人,
16:05
that because he's such這樣 a unique獨特 character字符,
322
953135
3183
昨晚我們的期待有多高?
16:08
what was the bar酒吧 that we
were expecting期待 last night?
323
956342
2845
是這麼高?還是再高一點,
抑或低一點?
16:11
Was it here or here or here?
324
959211
2856
所以他來給個像模像樣的政治演講,
16:14
And so he comes out
and gives a looking political政治 speech言語,
325
962091
3762
16:17
and everyone大家 goes, "Wow! He can do it."
326
965877
3388
大家都說,「哇!他做得到。」
這取決於他想怎麼做。
16:21
It just depends依靠
on which哪一個 direction方向 he goes.
327
969289
2022
16:23
DBD B: Yeah, and we're trying
to build建立 bridges橋樑 here,
328
971335
2365
DB:是的,我們在此試圖溝通彼此,
特別是對那些
看不起川普的觀眾來說,
16:25
and especially特別 for an audience聽眾
that may可能 have contempt鄙視 for Trump王牌,
329
973724
3037
說清楚這一點很重要。
16:28
it's important重要 to say,
no, this is a real真實 thing.
330
976785
2249
雖然在這一個小時裡
我盡量去尊重他,
16:31
But as I try my best最好 to go an hour小時
showing展示 respect尊重 for him,
331
979058
3854
16:34
my thyroid甲狀腺 is surging滔滔,
332
982936
1991
可我的喉嚨在發緊,
16:36
because I think the oddities古怪
of his character字符
333
984951
3372
因為我認為他怪異的
性格應該受到譴責,
16:40
really are condemnatory非難的
and are going to doom厄運 him.
334
988347
2481
這個會搞死他。
CA:你一直是保守人士。
16:42
CACA: Your reputation聲譽 is as a conservative保守.
335
990852
5458
人們認為你中間偏右,
16:48
People would you describe描述 you
as right of center中央,
336
996334
2374
而此刻的你是打內心裡
16:50
and yet然而 here you are
with this visceral內臟 reaction反應 against反對 him
337
998732
4233
反對他和他所持的某些立場。
16:54
and some of what he stands站立 for.
338
1002989
1626
我想說那你如何交流?
16:56
I mean, I'm -- how do you have
a conversation會話?
339
1004639
3627
現有的徵兆表明,
17:00
The people who support支持 him,
on evidence證據 so far,
340
1008290
2929
支持他的人可能很興奮。
17:03
are probably大概 pretty漂亮 excited興奮.
341
1011243
2192
川普他實實在在地參與到
17:05
He's certainly當然 shown顯示 real真實 engagement訂婚
342
1013459
5158
很多他之前的允諾中,
17:10
in a lot of what he promised許諾 to do,
343
1018641
2116
並且帶有極強烈的願望來徹底變革。
17:12
and there is a strong強大 desire慾望
to change更改 the system系統 radically根本.
344
1020781
4101
人們討厭現有政府,
還有對他們的置之不理。
17:16
People hate討厭 what government政府 has become成為
and how it's left them out.
345
1024906
4130
GC:我完全同意這一點,
17:21
GCGC: I totally完全 agree同意 with that,
346
1029060
1782
但我認為昨晚他提出的
龐大政府計劃極具諷刺性,
17:22
but I think that when he was proposing建議
a huge巨大 government政府 program程序 last night
347
1030866
3667
我們以前常「刺激」來貶稱它,
17:26
that we used to call the bad s-word,
"stimulus刺激物," I find it completely全然 ironic具有諷刺意味.
348
1034557
4068
花一萬億美元的事情,
17:30
To spend a trillion dollars美元
on something --
349
1038649
2008
可不是保守派的觀點。
17:32
that is not a conservative保守 viewpoint觀點.
350
1040681
1775
再者,我真覺得他不是共和黨人。
17:34
Then again, I don't really believe
he's a Republican共和黨人.
351
1042480
2486
DB:作為大家眼中的保守派:
17:36
DBD B: And I would say, as someone有人
who identifies識別 as conservative保守:
352
1044990
3021
我要說的是,首先,
17:40
first of all,
353
1048035
1163
保守派相信政治有局限性。
17:41
to be conservative保守 is to believe
in the limitations限制 of politics政治.
354
1049222
3038
塞缪尔·詹森說:「凡人心所載,
17:44
Samuel塞繆爾 Johnson約翰遜 said, "Of all the things
that human人的 hearts心中 endure忍受,
355
1052284
3118
17:47
how few少數 are those that kings國王
can cause原因 and cure治愈."
356
1055426
2447
君王定奪有幾何。」
17:49
Politics政治 is a limited有限 realm領域;
357
1057897
1645
政治是有限的國度;
最重要的是社會的道德本質。
17:51
what matters事項 most
is the moral道德 nature性質 of the society社會.
358
1059566
3037
17:54
And so I have to think
character字符 comes first,
359
1062627
2169
所以我必須先考慮人性,
一個人格底線不及格的人
17:56
and a man who doesn't pass通過
the character字符 threshold
360
1064820
2373
不會是個好的總統。
17:59
cannot不能 be a good president主席.
361
1067217
1340
第二,我是那種保守的人,
18:00
Second第二, I'm the kind
of conservative保守 who --
362
1068581
2665
讓我回想起亞歷山大·漢密爾頓,
18:03
I harken哈肯 back to Alexander亞歷山大 Hamilton漢密爾頓,
363
1071270
2687
同名音樂劇中,由《高地人生》創作者
一位拉丁裔嘻哈明星扮演了他——
18:05
who was a Latino拉丁美洲人 hip-hop嘻哈 star
from the heights高度 --
364
1073981
2330
18:08
(Laughter笑聲)
365
1076335
4075
(笑聲)
但他對美國的定義
是非常面向未來的。
18:12
but his definition定義 of America美國
was very future-oriented面向未來.
366
1080434
5371
他一個小島來的窮小子,
18:17
He was a poor較差的 boy男孩 from the islands島嶼
367
1085829
2356
如此快速而驚人地變身成功人士,
18:20
who had this rapid快速 and amazing驚人
rise上升 to success成功,
368
1088209
4313
18:24
and he wanted government政府 to give
poor較差的 boys男孩 and girls女孩 like him
369
1092546
2953
他希望政府能給像他
一樣貧窮的男孩和女孩
成功的機會,
18:27
a chance機會 to succeed成功,
370
1095523
1154
18:28
using運用 limited有限 but energetic有活力 government政府
to create創建 social社會 mobility流動性.
371
1096701
3221
透過捉襟見肘但幹勁十足的
政府創造社會流動性。
對他、對林肯和泰迪•羅斯福來說,
18:31
For him and for Lincoln林肯
and for Teddy泰迪熊 Roosevelt羅斯福,
372
1099946
3584
理想中的美國關乎未來。
18:35
the idea理念 of America美國
was the idea理念 of the future未來.
373
1103554
2335
18:37
We may可能 have division and racism種族主義
and slavery奴隸制度 in our past過去,
374
1105913
2891
也許過去我們有分裂、
種族主義和奴隸制,
18:40
but we have a common共同 future未來.
375
1108828
1892
但我們有共同的未來。
史蒂芬·班農主張的
美國定義是倒退的,
18:42
The definition定義 of America美國 that Steve史蒂夫
Bannon班農 stands站立 for is backwards-looking向後尋找.
376
1110744
4198
是懷舊的;是過去式的。
18:46
It's nostalgic懷舊的; it's for the past過去.
377
1114966
1947
18:48
And that is not traditionally傳統
the American美國 identity身分.
378
1116937
2480
而這並不是傳統上的美國身份。
傳統意義上,坦白講,
這是俄羅斯的身份。
18:51
That's traditionally傳統, frankly坦率地說,
the Russian俄語 identity身分.
379
1119441
2460
這就是他們如何界定美德。
18:53
That's how they define確定 virtue美德.
380
1121925
1482
所以我認為這是一個
對保守主義立場
18:55
And so I think it is a fundamental基本的
and foundational基礎 betrayal辜負
381
1123431
2853
徹頭徹尾的背叛。
18:58
of what conservatism保守主義 used to stand for.
382
1126308
1929
CA:嗯,我真的很高興聽你的發言,
19:00
CACA: Well, I'd like actually其實
like to hear from you,
383
1128261
2348
如果我們讓觀眾當中
有人發表些見解,那我們——
19:02
and if we see some comments註釋 coming未來 in
from some of you, we'll --
384
1130633
3022
剛剛好有一個。
19:05
oh, well here's這裡的 one right now.
385
1133679
1472
傑弗里·艾倫·卡內基(聽眾):
我試圖說服開明的朋友,
19:07
Jeffrey杰弗裡 Alan艾倫 Carnegie卡內基: I've tried試著
to convince說服 progressive進步 friends朋友
386
1135175
3140
他們需要瞭解川普
支持者的動機是什麼,
19:10
that they need to understand理解
what motivates能夠激勵 Trump王牌 supporters支持者,
387
1138339
2892
但面對他們認為的謊言、
自私和仇恨,
19:13
yet然而 many許多 of them have given特定 up
trying to understand理解
388
1141255
2417
他們中很多人已經
放棄嘗試去理解。
19:15
in the face面對 of what they perceive感知
as lies, selfishness自私 and hatred.
389
1143696
3144
你怎麽跟左派茶黨這些人打交道,
19:18
How would you reach達到 out to such這樣 people,
the Tea Party派對 of the left,
390
1146864
3185
去試圖彌合鴻溝?
19:22
to try to bridge this divide劃分?
391
1150073
1813
GC:我其實覺得有憤怒的共性。
19:25
GCGC: I actually其實 think
there are commonalities共性 in anger憤怒,
392
1153078
3078
正如我早前講過的。
19:28
as I expressed表達 earlier.
393
1156180
1438
所以我覺得把大家都很在乎的
事情都攤到檯面上來,
19:29
So I think you can come to the table,
both being存在 passionate多情 about something.
394
1157642
4430
19:34
So at least最小 you care關心.
395
1162096
1530
説明至少你在乎。
19:36
And I would like to believe --
the c-wordC-字 has also become成為
396
1164435
3707
我願意相信「妥協」,
C 代表很糟糕的詞 「妥協」,對吧?
19:40
a horrible可怕 word -- "compromise妥協," right?
397
1168166
2576
所以我們有最左的和最右的,
19:42
So you have the far left
and the far right,
398
1170766
2071
妥協 ——免談。
19:44
and compromise妥協 -- forget忘記 it.
399
1172861
1383
19:46
Those groups don't want
to even think about it.
400
1174268
2281
那些團體想都不會去想的。
19:48
But you have a huge巨大 swath大片
of voters選民, myself included包括,
401
1176573
3090
但一大堆選民,包括我在內,
作為登記在冊的獨立人士,
19:51
who are registered註冊 independents獨立,
402
1179687
1728
19:53
like 40 percent百分 of us, right?
403
1181439
1968
可能有40%,對吧?
所以在美國有很大
一部分人希望看到變革,
19:55
So there is a huge巨大 faction of America美國
that wants to see change更改
404
1183431
4301
希望看到人們團結在一起。
19:59
and wants to see people come together一起.
405
1187756
2634
20:02
It's just that we have to figure數字 out
406
1190414
1766
這就是我們得弄清楚
如何做到這點。
20:04
how to do that.
407
1192204
1411
CA:所以讓我們再多談一下,
20:05
CACA: So let's talk about that for a minute分鐘,
408
1193639
2118
因為我們在做的 TED 對話
就是想試圖溝通你我。
20:07
because we're having these TEDTED Dialogues對話,
we're trying to bridge.
409
1195781
3220
現在有很多人,特別是左派的,
20:11
There's a lot of people out there,
right now, perhaps也許 especially特別 on the left,
410
1199025
3676
20:14
who think this is a terrible可怕 idea理念,
411
1202725
1791
他們認為這是個糟糕的想法,
20:16
that actually其實, the only moral道德 response響應
to the great tyranny暴政
412
1204540
5939
但事實上,對大獨裁
唯一道義上的反應
在美國會即將發生:
20:22
that may可能 be about to emerge出現 in America美國
413
1210503
4011
就是每個階段都抵制,
拼了命地反抗,
20:26
is to resist it at every一切 stage階段,
is to fight鬥爭 it tooth and nail,
414
1214538
3632
試圖溝通彼此是個錯誤。
20:30
it's a mistake錯誤 to try and do this.
415
1218194
1881
20:32
Just fight鬥爭!
416
1220099
1182
就應該鬥爭!
有必要這樣嗎?
20:34
Is there a case案件 for that?
417
1222001
2345
DB:這要看「鬥爭」的意思。
如果僅字面上來説,那沒有。
20:36
DBD B: It depends依靠 what "fight鬥爭" means手段.
If it means手段 literal文字 fighting戰鬥, then no.
418
1224370
3580
那如果意味著遊行,
那也許會提高點意識,
20:39
If it means手段 marching行軍, well maybe
marching行軍 to raise提高 consciousness意識,
419
1227974
3124
也還不錯。
20:43
that seems似乎 fine.
420
1231122
1265
但如果想改變這個國家,
是透過政黨和政治來實現的。
20:44
But if you want change更改 in this country國家,
we do it through通過 parties派對 and politics政治.
421
1232411
4131
20:48
We organize組織 parties派對, and those parties派對
are big, diverse多種, messy coalitions聯盟,
422
1236566
4777
我們成立政黨,這些龐大、
多元而凌亂的同盟,
我們參與政治,
20:53
and we engage從事 in politics政治,
423
1241367
1618
20:55
and politics政治 is always
morally道德 unsatisfying不滿意
424
1243009
2328
政治道德上從來就不令人滿意,
因為它總是一堆妥協。
20:57
because it's always
a bunch of compromises妥協.
425
1245361
2477
但政治本質上是部分真理間的競爭。
20:59
But politics政治 is essentially實質上
a competition競爭 between之間 partial局部 truths真理.
426
1247862
3782
支持川普的人對美國現狀的理解
有一部分是真實的,
21:03
The Trump王牌 people have a piece
of the truth真相 in America美國.
427
1251668
2635
我覺得川普本人
是正確問題的錯誤答案,
21:06
I think Trump王牌 himself他自己 is the wrong錯誤 answer回答
to the right question,
428
1254327
3113
但他們有些道理,
21:09
but they have some truth真相,
429
1257464
2011
21:11
and it's truth真相 found發現 in the epidemic疫情
of opiates鴉片 around the country國家,
430
1259499
4149
在全國上下集體麻痹中得到真相,
21:15
it's truth真相 found發現 in
the spread傳播 of loneliness孤單,
431
1263672
2992
在孤單寂寞的迷霧中發現真相,
在生活打敗的人身上發現真相。
21:18
it's the truth真相 found發現 in people
whose誰的 lives生活 are inverted.
432
1266688
2959
21:21
They peaked見頂 professionally專業 at age年齡 30,
433
1269671
2422
30 歲時,他們在專業上達到頂峰,
然後就一直走下坡路。
21:24
and it's all been downhill下坡 since以來.
434
1272117
2025
21:26
And so, understanding理解 that
doesn't take fighting戰鬥,
435
1274166
2514
所以,理解這一點根本不需要鬥爭,
需要對話,然後問問自己:
21:28
it takes conversation會話 and then asking,
436
1276704
1951
「我們拿什麽來替換川普?」
21:30
"What are we going to replace更換 Trump王牌 with?"
437
1278679
2010
GC:但就在昨晚的
演講中也看到了抵抗,
21:32
GCGC: But you saw fighting戰鬥 last night,
even at the speech言語,
438
1280713
2667
有看到民主黨女性身著白衫,
21:35
because you saw the Democratic民主的 women婦女
who came來了 and wore穿著 white白色
439
1283404
2868
以紀念婦女參政運動。
21:38
to honor榮譽 the suffragette婦女參政權論者 movement運動.
440
1286296
1708
21:40
I remember記得 back during the campaign運動
441
1288028
2027
我記得競選那會兒,
一些川普的支持者想真正廢除
21:42
where some Trump王牌 supporters支持者 wanted
to actually其實 get rid擺脫 of the amendment修訂
442
1290079
3489
允許女性投票的修正案。
21:45
that allowed允許 us to vote投票 as women婦女.
443
1293592
1714
21:47
It was like, what?
444
1295330
2168
這算什麼?
21:49
So I don't know if
that's the right way to fight鬥爭.
445
1297522
2326
所以我不覺得這是正確的對抗。
這很有趣,當時我正在觀眾席,
21:51
It was interesting有趣,
because I was looking in the audience聽眾,
446
1299872
2808
想看看有沒有
沒穿白衫的民主黨女士。
21:54
trying to see Democratic民主的 women婦女
who didn't wear穿 white白色.
447
1302704
2555
所以很多事情在發生,
21:57
So there's a lot going on there,
448
1305283
1550
21:58
and there's a lot of ways方法 to fight鬥爭
that are not necessarily一定 doing that.
449
1306857
6635
而且還有很多對抗的方式,
但不一定非得這樣。
22:05
CACA: I mean, one of the key
questions問題, to me, is:
450
1313516
2474
CA:一個對我來說的關鍵問題是:
投票選川普的人
更多位於政治光譜的中段,
22:08
The people who voted for Trump王牌
but, if you like, are more in the center中央,
451
1316014
5649
好像他們更容易被說服——
22:13
like they're possibly或者
amenable適合 to persuasion勸說 --
452
1321687
3582
看到群情奮起的人高喊:
22:17
are they more likely容易 to be persuaded說服了
by seeing眼看 a passionate多情 uprising起義
453
1325293
5791
22:23
of people saying, "No, no, no, you can't!"
454
1331108
3513
「不要,不要,就不要,你不行!」
他們更易被說服,
22:26
or will that actually其實 piss小便 them off
and push them away?
455
1334645
3914
或者真的會惹毛他們或置之不理?
DB:要怎麽說服我們呢?
22:30
DBD B: How are any of us persuaded說服了?
456
1338583
1648
22:32
Am I going to persuade說服 you by saying,
"Well, you're kind of a bigot獨斷論者,
457
1340255
3327
要說服你,我會說:「你個老頑固,
你支持偏執,你支持性別歧視,
22:35
you're supporting支持 bigotry偏執,
you're supporting支持 sexism性別歧視.
458
1343606
2941
你個蒙昧落後的、
舊專制黨派崛起的法西斯」?
22:38
You're a primitive原始, fascistic法西斯 rise上升
from some authoritarian獨裁的 past過去"?
459
1346571
4628
22:43
That's probably大概 not going to be
too persuasive說服力 to you.
460
1351223
2685
但這可能對你不太有說服力。
22:45
And so the way any of us
are persuaded說服了 is by:
461
1353932
2641
於是大家是這樣被說服的:
22:48
a) some basic基本 show顯示 of respect尊重
for the point of view視圖, and saying,
462
1356597
4342
先對觀點以示必要的尊重,並說:
「我認為這傢伙
不會讓你達成願望的。」
22:52
"I think this guy is not going
to get you where you need to go."
463
1360963
3319
22:56
And there are two phrases短語
you've heard聽說 over and over again,
464
1364306
3380
還有耳朵聽到起繭的兩個詞,
22:59
wherever哪裡 you go in the country國家.
465
1367710
1493
在美國處處聽得到,
一,架空的國家。
23:01
One, the phrase短語 "flyover天橋 country國家."
466
1369227
1891
這個講了很多年了,
23:03
And that's been heard聽說 for years年份,
467
1371142
1848
但我會說:今年我每小時都聽得到,
23:05
but I would say this year,
I heard聽說 it almost幾乎 on an hourly每小時 basis基礎,
468
1373014
3696
23:08
a sense of feeling感覺 invisible無形.
469
1376734
1511
無孔不入的感覺。
23:10
And then the sense a sense of the phrase短語
"political政治 correctness正確性."
470
1378269
3758
二,「政治正確」這詞的體會。
就那種逆反的心理:
「都不讓我們說我們想說的。」
23:14
Just that rebellion暴動: "They're not even
letting出租 us say what we think."
471
1382051
4079
23:18
And I teach at Yale耶魯.
472
1386154
1325
我在耶魯大學教書,
23:19
The narrowing變窄 of debate辯論 is real真實.
473
1387503
4269
爭論點的縮窄是真實的。
CA:所以你會說自由主義者
自己掉進了坑裡,
23:24
CACA: So you would say this is a trap陷阱
that liberals自由主義者 have fallen墮落 into
474
1392449
3204
23:27
by celebrating慶祝 causes原因
they really believe in,
475
1395677
3096
透過表彰他們真正的信念,
老是以「政治正確」來說事。
23:30
often經常 expressed表達 through通過 the language語言
of "political政治 correctness正確性."
476
1398797
3962
他們已經搞砸了,把人推開了。
23:34
They have doneDONE damage損傷.
They have pushed people away.
477
1402783
4335
DB:雖然說很多爭論,
23:39
DBD B: I would say
a lot of the argument論據, though雖然,
478
1407142
2148
比如「骨子裡的法西斯主義」、
「集權主義」,
23:41
with "descent降落 to fascism法西斯主義,"
"authoritarianism獨裁主義" --
479
1409314
2361
對人們來說有點太過了,
23:43
that just feels感覺 over-the-top越過高峰 to people.
480
1411699
2189
聽我說,我的專欄
寫過八百萬篇的反川普文章,
23:45
And listen, I've written書面
eight million百萬 anti-Trump防翻車 columns,
481
1413912
2783
23:48
but it is a problem問題, especially特別
for the coastal沿海 media媒體,
482
1416719
2670
但這也是個問題,
特別是對於沿海媒體來說,
23:51
that every一切 time he does something
slightly wrong錯誤, we go to 11,
483
1419413
4173
每當他只是犯點小錯誤,
我們都要小題大做,
23:55
and we're at 11 every一切 day.
484
1423610
2186
我們每天都在無限上綱。
而且某種程度上是可信度的問題。
23:57
And it just strains
credibility可信性 at some point.
485
1425820
2840
CA:喊狼來了有點講過頭,
也喊得太早了。
24:00
CACA: Crying哭泣 wolf a little too loud
and a little too early.
486
1428684
2726
可能我們還真有狼來了的時候。
24:03
But there may可能 be a time
when we really do have to cry wolf.
487
1431434
2867
24:06
GCGC: But see -- one of the most
important重要 things to me
488
1434325
2572
GC:但還是有看到,
對我來說有件重要的事情:
是傳統媒體如何應對川普。
24:08
is how the conservative保守 media媒體
handles手柄 Trump王牌.
489
1436921
2621
24:12
Will they call him out
when things are not true真正,
490
1440439
4573
一旦事情不對,他們就點川普的名?
24:17
or will they just go along沿 with it?
491
1445036
2183
還是由他去吧?
24:19
To me, that is what is essential必要
in this entire整個 discussion討論,
492
1447243
4029
對我來說這是
整個討論的重中之重,
24:23
because when you have
followers追隨者 of somebody
493
1451296
4584
因為當有跟屁蟲,
24:27
who don't really care關心
if he tells告訴 the truth真相 or not,
494
1455904
3632
都不關心主子是否說實話,
24:31
that can be very dangerous危險.
495
1459560
2285
這可相當危險。
所以對我來說就是:
保守媒體怎麼回應?
24:33
So to me, it's: How is the conservative保守
media媒體 going to respond響應 to it?
496
1461869
4286
我的意思是你一個勁地點他的名。
24:38
I mean, you've been calling調用 them out.
497
1466179
2494
但是,其他保守媒體怎麼辦呢?
24:40
But how will other forms形式
of conservative保守 media媒體 deal合同 with that
498
1468697
4385
當我們都向前看了。
24:45
as we move移動 forward前鋒?
499
1473106
1158
DB:一切都變了。
24:46
DBD B: It's all shifted, though雖然.
500
1474288
1396
之前保守媒體要麽是福斯,
要麽是查爾斯·柯翰默或喬治·威爾,
24:47
The conservative保守 media媒體 used to be Fox狐狸
or Charles查爾斯 Krauthammer克勞瑟默 or George喬治 Will.
501
1475708
3638
現在他們不再是保守媒體了。
24:51
They're no longer the conservative保守 media媒體.
502
1479370
2004
現在還有一大波更右傾的機構,
24:53
Now there's another另一個 whole整個 set
of institutions機構 further進一步 right,
503
1481398
2831
比如説 Breitbart、Infowars、
Alex Jones、Laura Ingraham,
24:56
which哪一個 is BreitbartBreitbart and InfowarsInfowars,
Alex亞歷克斯 Jones瓊斯, Laura勞拉 Ingraham英格拉哈姆,
504
1484253
5597
25:01
and so they're the ones那些 who are now
his base基礎, not even so much Fox狐狸.
505
1489874
3801
他們現在是他的媒體大本營,
而沒有福斯多少事了。
CA:現在我最後的問題是
真相的問題。
25:05
CACA: My last question for the time being存在
is just on this question of the truth真相.
506
1493699
4087
25:09
I mean, it's one of the scariest最可怕的
things to people right now,
507
1497810
2879
我是想說這是當下人們
面臨最可怕的事情之一,
全國範圍內對真相
是什麼尚未達成共識。
25:12
that there is no agreement協議,
nationally國內, on what is true真正.
508
1500713
3683
從來沒有看見過像這樣的現象,
25:16
I've never seen看到 anything like it,
509
1504420
1790
25:18
where facts事實 are so massively大規模 disputed爭議.
510
1506234
3337
事實表明爭議如此巨大。
25:21
Your whole整個 newspaper報紙, sir先生,
is delivering交付 fake news新聞 every一切 day.
511
1509595
3551
先生,你整個報紙
每天都在提供假消息。
DB:還有失敗。
25:25
DBD B: And failing失敗.
512
1513170
1508
25:26
(Laughter笑聲)
513
1514702
1088
(笑聲)
CA:失敗,深表同情。
25:27
CACA: And failing失敗. My commiserationscommiserations.
514
1515814
1956
25:29
But is there any path路徑
515
1517794
6290
那有沒有通道
25:36
whereby因此 we can start開始 to get
some kind of consensus共識,
516
1524108
3810
可以著手得到某種共識,
25:39
to believe the same相同 things?
517
1527942
2860
好相信同樣的事情?
線上論壇可以發揮點作用嗎?
25:42
Can online線上 communities社區 play a role角色 here?
518
1530826
3568
我們如何解決這個問題?
25:46
How do we fix固定 this?
519
1534418
1169
GC:我明白怎麼回事。
25:47
GCGC: See, I understand理解 how that happened發生.
520
1535611
2038
另一種群情激昂,
25:49
That's another另一個 groundswell風潮 kind of emotion情感
521
1537673
2199
25:51
that was going on in the middle中間 of America美國
522
1539896
2015
正在美國中部地區上演,
25:53
and not being存在 heard聽說,
523
1541935
1233
無人理會。
他們認為主流媒體有偏見;
25:55
in thinking思維 that the mainstream主流
media媒體 was biased.
524
1543192
3031
25:58
There's a difference區別, though雖然,
between之間 being存在 biased and being存在 fake.
525
1546247
4066
當然偏見和虛假之間是有區別的。
26:02
To me, that is a very important重要
distinction分別 in this conversation會話.
526
1550337
3573
對我來說,這是此次對話中
非常重要的區別。
26:05
So let's just say that there was some bias偏壓
in the mainstream主流 media媒體.
527
1553934
4498
我們姑且認為主流媒體是有偏見的。
所以還是有辦法去修補的。
26:10
OK. So there are ways方法
to try and mend修補 that.
528
1558456
2933
26:13
But what Trump's特朗普的 doing
is nuclearizingnuclearizing that and saying,
529
1561413
4075
但川普所作所為讓事態更加惡化,
說道:「我們認為媒體上都是假消息。」
26:17
"Look, we're just going to call
all of that fake."
530
1565512
2538
26:20
That's where it gets得到 dangerous危險.
531
1568074
1546
這才是要命的事。
26:21
CACA: Do you think enough足夠 of his supporters支持者
532
1569644
2861
CA:你認為他的支持者們
26:24
have a greater更大 loyalty忠誠
to the truth真相 than to any ...
533
1572529
4245
對真相忠貞不二,還是......
比如原則上不去支持那些
26:28
Like, the principle原理
of not supporting支持 something
534
1576798
4639
顯然錯得離譜的東西更為重要,
26:33
that is demonstrablydemonstrably not true真正
535
1581461
1998
26:35
actually其實 matters事項, so there will be
a correction更正 at some point?
536
1583483
2961
因此,到頭來是會修正的?
DB:我想真相終會來臨的。
26:38
DBD B: I think the truth真相
eventually終於 comes out.
537
1586468
2290
26:40
So for example, Donald唐納德 Trump王牌
has based基於 a lot of his economic經濟 policy政策
538
1588782
3156
比方説,唐納•川普的
很多經濟政策基於
假設美國人失去製造業的工作
26:43
on this supposition假想 that Americans美國人
have lost丟失 manufacturing製造業 jobs工作
539
1591962
3004
是因為被中國人偷走了;
26:46
because they've他們已經 been stolen被盜
by the Chinese中文.
540
1594990
2042
26:49
That is maybe 13 percent百分
of the jobs工作 that left.
541
1597056
2926
也許 13% 的工作是如此。
26:52
The truth真相 is that 87 percent百分 of the jobs工作
were replaced更換 by technology技術.
542
1600006
3582
事實上 87% 的工作
是被技術所取代的,
26:55
That is just the truth真相.
543
1603612
1778
這才是真相。
26:57
And so as a result結果, when he says,
544
1605414
2662
結果當他說:
27:00
"I'm going to close TPPTPP
and all the jobs工作 will come roaring咆哮 back,"
545
1608100
3967
「我要關掉 TPP,
讓工作都呼啦啦地回來」,
工作是不太可能呼啦啦地就回來的。
27:04
they will not come roaring咆哮 back.
546
1612091
1561
所以,這是我認為的真正事實。
27:05
So that is an actual實際 fact事實, in my belief信仰.
547
1613676
3084
還有——
27:08
And --
548
1616784
1158
(笑聲)
27:09
(Laughter笑聲)
549
1617966
1299
GC:但我想說的是,
他的支持者卻認為是真的,
27:11
GCGC: But I'm saying what
his supporters支持者 think is the truth真相,
550
1619289
2716
27:14
no matter how many許多 times
you might威力 say that,
551
1622029
2135
不管你講多少次,
他們仍然相信他。
27:16
they still believe him.
552
1624188
1206
DB:但最終工作
會不會回歸是個問題,
27:17
DBD B: But eventually終於 either jobs工作
will come back or they will not come back,
553
1625418
3759
27:21
and at that point, either something
will work or it doesn't work,
554
1629201
3095
到時候,要麽有效,要麽不起作用,
不會因為大力行銷而行或不行;
27:24
and it doesn't work or not work
because of great marketing營銷,
555
1632320
2795
27:27
it works作品 because it actually其實
addresses地址 a real真實 problem問題
556
1635139
2545
得要真正對症下藥才行,
所以我認為真相總會大白的。
27:29
and so I happen發生 to think
the truth真相 will out.
557
1637708
2486
27:32
CACA: If you've got a question,
please raise提高 your hand here.
558
1640218
3943
CA:有什麽問題想問的,請舉手!
27:36
Yael耶爾 Eisenstat艾森施塔特: I'll speak說話 into the box.
559
1644185
2620
伊爾·艾森斯塔特:
我對著 TED 錄音盒說話。
27:38
My name's名字的 Yael耶爾 Eisenstat艾森施塔特.
560
1646829
2994
我叫伊爾·艾森斯塔特。
我聽到很多這樣的談話,
27:41
I hear a lot of this talk
561
1649847
1611
27:43
about how we all need to start開始
talking to each other more
562
1651482
2679
關於我們都如何更加參與對話,
27:46
and understanding理解 each other more,
563
1654185
1676
彼此瞭解,
我寫過甚至還發表過
這個問題的文章,
27:47
and I've even written書面 about this,
published發表 on this subject學科 as well,
564
1655885
3540
但現今,我還是
聽到自由主義者說——
27:51
but now today今天 I keep hearing聽力 liberals自由主義者 --
yes, I live生活 in New York紐約,
565
1659449
5110
我住在紐約,算是自由主義者——
27:56
I can be considered考慮 a liberal自由主義的 --
566
1664583
1723
27:58
we sit here and self-analyze自我分析:
567
1666330
1699
我們坐在這裡自省:
28:00
What did we do to not understand理解
the Rust Belt?
568
1668053
2309
我們想瞭解銹帶(美國中部
及五大湖區),卻什麼都不做?
28:02
Or: What can we do to understand理解
Middle中間 America美國 better?
569
1670386
2850
或者:我們能做些什麼
來更好地瞭解美國中部?
28:05
And what I'd like to know:
570
1673260
1448
我想知道的是:
你有看到美國中部的
任何嘗試來對話,
28:06
Have you seen看到 any attempts嘗試
or conversations對話 from Middle中間 America美國
571
1674732
3926
要試圖瞭解所謂的沿海精英,
又要做些什麽?
28:10
of what can I do to understand理解
the so-called所謂 coastal沿海 elites精英 better?
572
1678682
3217
28:13
Because I'm just offended生氣
as being存在 put in a box as a coastal沿海 elite原種
573
1681923
4003
我對自己被歸類到
沿海精英的小圈子裡,很不爽;
28:17
as someone有人 in Middle中間 America美國 is
as being存在 considered考慮 a flyover天橋 state
574
1685950
3224
可身為美國中部的人覺得被架空,
又沒人理會。
28:21
and not listened聽了 to.
575
1689198
1477
28:22
CACA: There you go, I can hear FacebookFacebook的
cheering歡呼 as you --
576
1690699
2743
CA:你說到點子上了,
Facebook 在為你叫好。
(笑聲)
28:25
(Laughter笑聲)
577
1693466
1100
DB:我會說——
28:26
DBD B: I would say -- and this is someone有人
who has been conservative保守
578
1694590
3550
作為一名保守的成年人——
28:30
all my adult成人 life --
579
1698164
1166
當你中規中矩地長大成人,
28:31
when you grow增長 up conservative保守,
580
1699354
1767
28:33
you learn學習 to speak說話 both languages語言.
581
1701145
1955
你學會說兩種話。
假定我想聽音樂,
28:35
Because if I'm going to listen to music音樂,
582
1703806
2404
我不會去聽泰德·紐根特
(主打搖滾、金屬樂)。
28:38
I'm not going to listen to Ted攤曬 Nugent紐金特.
583
1706234
2118
28:40
So a lot of my favorite喜愛 rock bands
are all on the left.
584
1708376
4681
而我最愛的搖滾樂隊都是左派。
那如果要上學,
28:45
If I'm going to go to a school學校,
585
1713081
1538
28:46
I'm going probably大概 to school學校
where the culture文化 is liberal自由主義的.
586
1714643
2753
我可能會去學風自由左傾的學校。
如果我觀看情景劇,
28:49
If I'm going to watch a sitcom情景喜劇
587
1717420
1607
28:51
or a late-night深夜 comedy喜劇 show顯示,
it's going to be liberal自由主義的.
588
1719051
2563
或是午夜夜場秀,
會選自由輕鬆的。
28:53
If I'm going to read a good newspaper報紙,
it'll它會 be the New York紐約 Times.
589
1721638
3183
我要是讀一份靠譜的報紙,
那將是《紐約時報》。
因此,你(左右)兩種話都會。
28:56
As a result結果, you learn學習
to speak說話 both languages語言.
590
1724845
2266
28:59
And that actually其實, at least最小
for a number of years年份,
591
1727135
2884
實際上,起碼持續了有些年,
當我和小威廉·F·巴克利
開播《國家評論》時,
29:02
when I started開始 at National國民 Review評論
with William威廉 F. Buckley巴克利,
592
1730043
2818
那使得我們言語更鋒利,
29:04
it made製作 us sharper更清晰,
593
1732885
1480
因為我們習慣於天天與人爭論。
29:06
because we were used to arguing爭論
against反對 people every一切 day.
594
1734389
3627
29:10
The problem問題 now that's happened發生
is you have ghettoization貧民窟 on the right
595
1738040
3309
現在的問題是,
如果你自我設限為右派,
你可以完全活在右派世界裡,
29:13
and you can live生活 entirely完全 in rightworldrightworld,
596
1741373
2361
29:15
so as a result結果, the quality質量 of argument論據
on the right has diminished減少,
597
1743758
3471
於是,右派觀點爭論價值就會下降,
因為你一直以來
29:19
because you're not in the other side
598
1747253
2543
沒在對方的陣營裡。
29:21
all the time.
599
1749820
1253
但我確實覺得,如果你住在
明尼蘇達、愛荷華或亞利桑那,
29:23
But I do think if you're living活的
in Minnesota明尼蘇達 or Iowa愛荷華州 or Arizona亞利桑那,
600
1751097
4952
29:28
the coastal沿海 elites精英
make themselves他們自己 aware知道的 to you,
601
1756073
2335
沿海精英會讓你意識到他們的存在,
所以你也懂這種語言,
29:30
so you know that language語言 as well,
602
1758432
1686
但反過來並非如此。
29:32
but it's not the reverse相反.
603
1760142
1428
CA:那麼,美國中部的人
沒能從沿海精英獲得什麽?
29:33
CACA: But what does Middle中間 America美國
not get about coastal沿海 elites精英?
604
1761594
4231
29:37
So the critique批判 is,
605
1765849
3040
批評會說,
29:40
you are not dealing交易
with the real真實 problems問題.
606
1768913
2762
你沒有抓住真正問題。
29:43
There's a feeling感覺 of a snobbishness勢利,
an elitism精英 that is very off-putting倒胃口.
607
1771699
6461
讓人感覺很勢利,
精英主義讓人不爽。
他們漏掉了什麼?
29:50
What are they missing失踪?
608
1778184
1168
如果能種下一條真理,
29:51
If you could plant one piece of truth真相
609
1779376
3503
29:54
from the mindset心態 of someone有人
in this room房間, for example,
610
1782903
5190
比方説種在現場觀眾的心田上,
那你會對他們說什麼呢?
30:00
what would you say to them?
611
1788117
2728
DB:我們都太棒了。
30:02
DBD B: Just how insanely瘋狂地 wonderful精彩 we are.
612
1790869
1915
30:04
(Laughter笑聲)
613
1792808
1603
(笑聲)
不對,我拒絕分類。
30:06
No, I reject拒絕 the category類別.
614
1794435
2350
30:08
The problem問題 with populism民粹主義
is the same相同 problem問題 with elitism精英.
615
1796809
3484
民粹主義和精英主義
是同樣的問題。
這就是個偏見,
30:12
It's just a prejudice偏見 on the basis基礎
616
1800317
2298
對過分廣義的社會階級,
30:14
of probably大概 an over-generalized過度泛化
social社會 class distinction分別
617
1802639
2950
簡單粗俗,脫離現實。
30:17
which哪一個 is too simplistic簡單化
to apply應用 in reality現實.
618
1805613
3055
我們紐約人都知道紐約的有些人
30:20
Those of us in New York紐約 know
there are some people in New York紐約
619
1808692
2942
是非常了不起的;
可也有人是可悲的,
30:23
who are completely全然 awesome真棒,
and some people who are pathetic可憐,
620
1811658
2927
30:26
and if you live生活 in Iowa愛荷華州, some people
are awesome真棒 and some people are pathetic可憐.
621
1814609
3734
同樣你若住在愛荷華,
有些人很棒,有些人很糟。
這不是你有什麽學歷的問題,
30:30
It's not a question
of what degree you have
622
1818367
2068
或者你住在哪裡,
30:32
or where you happen發生 to live生活
in the country國家.
623
1820459
2048
區別在於為政治權力
而簡單粗暴地簡化。
30:34
The distinction分別 is just a crude原油
simplification簡單化 to arouse引起 political政治 power功率.
624
1822531
3474
GC:但我會鼓勵人們
去看電視新聞談話節目,
30:38
GCGC: But I would encourage鼓勵 people
to watch a television電視 news新聞 show顯示
625
1826029
4585
30:42
or read a column
that they normally一般 wouldn't不會.
626
1830638
2669
或去讀下他們通常不會看的專欄。
所以如果是川普的支持者,
某天去看看其他陣營的,
30:46
So if you are a Trump王牌 supporter支持者,
watch the other side for a day,
627
1834221
5026
如果要想和對方對話,
30:51
because you need to come out of the bubble泡沫
628
1839271
2021
30:53
if you're ever going
to have a conversation會話.
629
1841316
2102
你得走出你的小圈圈。
30:55
And both sides雙方 -- so if you're a liberal自由主義的,
630
1843442
2614
另一方亦如此——
如果你是個自由主義者,
30:58
then watch something
that's very conservative保守.
631
1846080
2831
那麼看些非常保守的東西,
31:00
Read a column that is not something
you would normally一般 read,
632
1848935
3648
讀些通常不碰的專欄,
31:04
because then you gain獲得 perspective透視
of what the other side is thinking思維,
633
1852607
3290
這樣就可以搞明白保守派
想的事情是怎麽一回事,
31:07
and to me, that's a start開始
of coming未來 together一起.
634
1855921
2460
對我而言,這只是走到一起的開始。
我們都擔心同樣的事情,小圈子。
31:10
I worry擔心 about the same相同 thing
you worry擔心 about, these bubbles泡泡.
635
1858405
2841
我想如果只看個別事例,
31:13
I think if you only watch
certain某些 entities實體,
636
1861270
2020
你根本不知道世界上
其他地方在說什麼。
31:15
you have no idea理念 what the rest休息
of the world世界 is talking about.
637
1863314
2931
DB:我想不僅僅是觀察,
31:18
DBD B: I think not only watching觀看,
638
1866269
2509
31:20
being存在 part部分 of an organization組織
that meets符合 at least最小 once一旦 a month
639
1868802
3014
作為社團成員至少
每月去碰個頭,見個面,
31:23
that puts看跌期權 you in direct直接 contact聯繫
with people completely全然 unlike不像 yourself你自己
640
1871840
3330
讓你有機會直面
與你完全不同的人,
我們都有責任這麽做。
31:27
is something we all have
a responsibility責任 for.
641
1875194
2151
這麽說可能會不一定對,
31:29
I may可能 get this a little wrong錯誤,
642
1877369
1467
但這讓我想到美國最暢銷的車型,
31:30
but I think of the top-selling最暢銷
automotive汽車 models楷模 in this country國家,
643
1878860
3245
31:34
I think the top最佳 three or four
are all pickup撿起 trucks卡車.
644
1882129
3322
前三、四名都是小貨卡。
所以捫心自問:
我認識的人中誰有輛小貨卡?
31:37
So ask yourself你自己: How many許多 people
do I know who own擁有 a pickup撿起 truck卡車?
645
1885475
3812
對很多人來說,
可能少的可憐或沒有。
31:41
And it could be very few少數 or zero
for a lot of people.
646
1889311
3429
這就是問題的一種警示。
31:44
And that's sort分類 of a warning警告 sign標誌
kind of a problem問題.
647
1892764
2954
31:47
Where can I join加入 a club俱樂部
648
1895742
1749
何處我可以加入一個俱樂部,
31:49
where I'll have a lot in common共同
with a person who drives驅動器 a pickup撿起 truck卡車
649
1897515
3414
在那裡我會跟某位開小貨卡的人
有很多共同之處,
因為我們有某些同好之類的。
31:52
because we have a common共同
interest利益 in whatever隨你?
650
1900953
2175
31:55
CACA: And so the internet互聯網 is definitely無疑
contributing貢獻 to this.
651
1903152
2812
CA:當然互聯網絕對
可以解決這個問題。
下面是克里斯·阿傑米揚的問題:
31:57
A question here from Chris克裡斯 Ajemian阿傑米安:
652
1905988
2153
「你如何看待溝通的架構,
32:00
"How do you feel structure結構體
of communications通訊,
653
1908165
2125
32:02
especially特別 the prevalence流行 of social社會
media媒體 and individualized個性化 content內容,
654
1910314
3730
特別是社交媒體
和個性化內容的普及,
除了讓大家到社區填表格登記外,
32:06
can be used to bring帶來 together一起
a political政治 divide劃分,
655
1914068
2470
32:08
instead代替 of just filing備案 communities社區
into echo迴聲 chambers?"
656
1916562
3235
能否用來連接政治鴻溝?」
我的意思是,
32:11
I mean, it looks容貌 like FacebookFacebook的
and Google谷歌, since以來 the election選舉,
657
1919821
4449
自從選舉以來,Facebook
和 Google 都在努力解決這個問題。
32:16
are working加工 hard on this question.
658
1924294
1679
32:17
They're trying to change更改 the algorithms算法
659
1925997
3818
他們試圖修改演算法,
32:21
so that they don't amplify放大 fake news新聞
660
1929839
3639
以防假消息被放大;
32:25
to the extent程度 that it happened發生
last time round回合.
661
1933502
2406
不像上一輪大選發生的那樣。
你有看到任何其他光明的跡象嗎?
32:27
Do you see any other
promising有希望 signs跡象 of ...?
662
1935932
2224
32:30
GCGC: ... or amplify放大 one side
of the equation方程.
663
1938180
2103
GC:或者放大等式的某一邊。
CA:太對了。
32:32
CACA: Exactly究竟.
664
1940307
1151
GC:這就是右派吵個不停的爭論,
32:33
GCGC: I think that was the constant不變
argument論據 from the right,
665
1941482
4365
大體上講,社交媒體和互聯網
32:37
that social社會 media媒體
and the internet互聯網 in general一般
666
1945871
2570
把不是他們世界觀的文章置頂。
32:40
was putting articles用品 towards the top最佳
that were not their worldview世界觀.
667
1948465
3822
32:44
I think, again, that fed美聯儲 into the anger憤怒.
668
1952311
2942
我想,這就是火上澆油。
結果導致很生氣:
32:47
It fed美聯儲 into the anger憤怒 of:
669
1955277
1535
32:48
"You're pushing推動 something
that's not what I believe."
670
1956836
2780
「你在宣揚那些
我都不相信的東西。」
32:51
But social社會 media媒體 has obviously明顯
changed everything,
671
1959640
2420
社交媒體顯然已經改變了這一切,
32:54
and I think Trump王牌 is the example
of Twitter推特 changing改變 absolutely絕對 everything.
672
1962084
4377
川普的推特就是個
改變局勢很好的例子。
而從他的角度來看,
32:58
And from his point of view視圖,
673
1966485
2003
33:00
he's reaching到達 the American美國 people
without a filter過濾,
674
1968512
4297
他未經修飾直面美國民眾,
而他認為媒體是篩選過的。
33:04
which哪一個 he believes相信 the media媒體 is.
675
1972833
2715
33:09
CACA: Question from the audience聽眾.
676
1977365
2419
CA:觀眾提問,
33:12
Destiny命運: Hi你好. I'm Destiny命運.
677
1980498
1825
戴斯特尼:嗨!我是戴斯特尼。
33:14
I have a question regarding關於 political政治
correctness正確性, and I'm curious好奇:
678
1982347
4330
我有個政治正確的問題,我很好奇:
政治正確何時成了沈默的代名詞,
33:18
When did political政治 correctness正確性
become成為 synonymous代名詞 with silencing沉默,
679
1986701
4670
33:23
versus a way that we speak說話
about other people
680
1991395
5115
而不是當我們論及別人時,
33:28
to show顯示 them respect尊重
and preserve保留 their dignity尊嚴?
681
1996534
3139
很客氣也很尊重對方?
33:31
GCGC: Well, I think the conservative保守 media媒體
really pounded搗爛 this issue問題
682
1999697
3388
GC:我認為保守媒體
有點講爛了這個問題,
在過去十年裡。
33:35
for the last 10 years年份.
683
2003109
1864
33:36
I think that they really, really
spent花費 a lot of time
684
2004997
3361
他們的確花很多時間
33:40
talking about political政治 correctness正確性,
685
2008382
1806
在談論政治正確性,
還有人們應該如何
去表達自己的想法。
33:42
and how people should have
the ability能力 to say what they think.
686
2010212
3403
川普另一個變得如此受歡迎的原因:
33:45
Another另一個 reason原因 why Trump王牌
became成為 so popular流行:
687
2013639
2170
33:47
because he says what he thinks.
688
2015833
1878
是因為他想啥就說啥。
33:49
It also makes品牌 me think about the fact事實
689
2017735
4632
這也讓我想起了些事,
33:55
that I do believe there are a lot
of people in America美國
690
2023756
3035
我相信有很多美國人
33:58
who agree同意 with Steve史蒂夫 Bannon班農,
691
2026815
3892
認同史蒂芬·班農,
但他們從來不會公開說,
34:02
but they would never say it publicly公然,
692
2030731
1939
所以投票選川普給了他們一次機會
34:04
and so voting表決 for Trump王牌
gave them the opportunity機會
693
2032694
3084
34:07
to agree同意 with it silently默默.
694
2035802
1604
來無聲地支持。
DB:關於移民問題,
這個正當的觀點是
34:10
DBD B: On the issue問題 of immigration移民,
it's a legitimate合法 point of view視圖
695
2038816
4964
我們國家有太多移民,
34:15
that we have too many許多 immigrants移民
in the country國家,
696
2043804
2427
34:18
that it's economically經濟 costly昂貴.
697
2046255
1466
那可是相當燒錢。
CA:我們有太多...
34:19
CACA: That we have too many許多 --
698
2047745
1356
34:21
DBD B: Immigrants移民 in the country國家,
especially特別 from Britain英國.
699
2049125
2609
DB:國內的移民,
尤其是來自英格蘭。
(笑聲)
34:23
(Laughter笑聲)
700
2051758
1174
34:24
GCGC: I kind of like the British英國的 accent口音, OK?
701
2052956
2750
GC:我還有點喜歡
英國口音呢,好不好?
CA:我很抱歉。對不起,美國。
34:27
CACA: I apologize道歉. America美國, I am sorry.
702
2055730
2347
34:30
(Laughter笑聲)
703
2058101
1655
(笑聲)
我立馬就走。
34:31
I'll go now.
704
2059780
1717
34:33
DBD B: But it became成為
sort分類 of impermissible不允許 to say that,
705
2061521
5924
DB:但是,這成了個談話的禁忌,
34:39
because it was a sign標誌 that somehow不知何故
you must必須 be a bigot獨斷論者 of some sort分類.
706
2067469
3445
因為某種程度上
説明你有點頑固不化。
34:42
So the political政治 correctness正確性
was not only cracking開裂 down on speech言語
707
2070938
3951
所以政治正確不只打擊言論,
我們都覺得那樣太無禮,
34:46
that we would all find
completely全然 offensive進攻,
708
2074913
2223
34:49
it was cracking開裂 down on some speech言語
that was legitimate合法,
709
2077160
2782
它在打擊一些合法的言論,
34:51
and then it was turning車削 speech言語
and thought into action行動
710
2079966
4548
然後,它把言論和想法變成行動,
視其為犯罪,
34:56
and treating治療 it as a crime犯罪,
711
2084538
2060
34:58
and people getting得到 fired解僱
and people thrown拋出 out of schools學校,
712
2086622
2920
人們被解僱、被攆出學校,
這裡有書面的言論守則。
35:01
and there were speech言語 codes代碼 written書面.
713
2089566
1742
現在這些五花八門的團隊,
35:03
Now there are these diversity多樣 teams球隊,
714
2091332
1794
說什麽總會有人覺得被冒犯,
35:05
where if you say something
that somebody finds認定 offensive進攻,
715
2093150
2680
35:07
like, "Smoking抽煙 is really dangerous危險,"
you can say "You're insulting侮辱 my group,"
716
2095854
3696
就像「吸煙真的很危險」,
你可以說「你在詆毀我們組」,
宿管員會敲開你的房門,
35:11
and the team球隊 from the administration行政
will come down into your dorm宿舍 room房間
717
2099574
3538
35:15
and put thought police警察 upon you.
718
2103136
2541
充當國安給你做思想工作。
35:17
And so there has been a genuine真正 narrowing變窄
of what is permissible可允許的 to say.
719
2105701
5189
所以能說得話真是少到可憐。
35:22
And some of it is legitimate合法.
720
2110914
1868
有些還是合法的呢。
35:24
There are certain某些 words that there
should be some social社會 sanction制裁 against反對,
721
2112806
5363
有些話本應該受到社會制裁,
結果有些話反被政治圖謀所鞏固。
35:30
but some of it was used
to enforce執行 a political政治 agenda議程.
722
2118193
2974
35:33
CACA: So is that a project項目
723
2121191
1213
CA:是否有那麼個項目,
35:34
you would urge敦促 on liberals自由主義者,
if you like -- progressives進步 --
724
2122428
2980
你會敦促自由派或進步派,
35:37
to rethink反思 the ground地面 rules規則
around political政治 correctness正確性
725
2125432
4917
就政治正確的基本規則去重新思考,
在特定環境下,
35:42
and accept接受 a little more
uncomfortable不舒服 language語言
726
2130373
5695
去接受那麽些有點不太舒服的話嗎?
35:48
in certain某些 circumstances情況?
727
2136092
2834
你看到這有用嗎,
35:50
Can you see that being存在 solved解決了
728
2138950
1734
35:52
to an extent程度 that others其他
won't慣於 be so offended生氣?
729
2140708
4203
某種程度上別人不會那麽生氣?
35:56
DBD B: I mean, most American美國 universities高校,
especially特別 elite原種 universities高校,
730
2144935
3324
DB:我想說大多數美國大學,
特別是精英大學,
絕大部分是左派,
36:00
are overwhelmingly壓倒性 on the left,
731
2148283
1533
36:01
and there's just an ease緩解 of temptation誘惑
732
2149840
1862
就那麽潛移默化地,
36:03
to use your overwhelming壓倒 cultural文化 power功率
to try to enforce執行 some sort分類 of thought
733
2151726
4193
試圖用壓倒性的文化鞏固一些思想,
那些你認為正確的思想。
36:07
that you think is right
and correct正確 thought.
734
2155943
2289
最好能來點自我懷疑,
我們是在這麽做嗎?
36:10
So, be a little more self-suspicious自我懷疑
of, are we doing that?
735
2158256
3203
再者,我的母校芝加哥大學
36:13
And second第二, my university大學,
the University大學 of Chicago芝加哥,
736
2161483
3476
發佈了一封信說,
我們將無安全之處,
36:16
sent發送 out this letter saying,
we will have no safe安全 spaces空間.
737
2164983
2730
36:19
There will be no critique批判
of micro-aggression微侵略.
738
2167737
2410
將不會有對微侵犯的批評。
36:22
If you get your feelings情懷 hurt傷害,
well, welcome歡迎 to the world世界 of education教育.
739
2170171
3461
如果你覺得很受傷,
那很歡迎來到教育界。
36:25
I do think that policy政策 --
740
2173656
1414
我確實認為政策是
對時下發生事情的糾正——
36:27
which哪一個 is being存在 embraced擁抱 by a lot
of people on the left, by the way --
741
2175094
3334
順帶提一下,
有很多左派人士同意這一點。
36:30
is just a corrective糾正的 to what's happened發生.
742
2178452
2166
36:32
CACA: So here's這裡的 a question
from Karen卡倫 Holloway霍洛威:
743
2180642
2109
CA:下面是凱倫·霍洛威的提問:
36:34
How do we foster培育 an American美國 culture文化
744
2182775
2330
我們該如何培育美國文化?
36:37
that's forward-looking前瞻, like Hamilton漢密爾頓,
745
2185129
2524
像漢密爾頓一樣前瞻、
36:39
that expects預計 and deals交易 with change更改,
746
2187677
2528
滿懷期待並擁抱變革,
36:42
rather than wanting希望 to have everything
go back to some fictional虛構 past過去?
747
2190229
3684
而不是幻想讓一切
都倒退到虛構的舊社會?
這問題不難,是吧?
36:47
That's an easy簡單 question, right?
748
2195104
1578
GC:嗯,我依然相信美國夢,
36:48
GCGC: Well, I'm still a believer信徒
in the American美國 dream夢想,
749
2196706
2591
36:51
and I think what we can teach
our children孩子 is the basics基本,
750
2199321
3434
我想我們能教孩子們
根本的東西,
36:54
which哪一個 is that hard work
751
2202779
3397
就是辛勤工作,
36:58
and believing相信 in yourself你自己
752
2206200
2510
充滿自信,
37:01
in America美國, you can achieve實現
whatever隨你 you want.
753
2209597
2220
在美國,只要你肯做,
就能實現夢想。
我就是這麽被教導長大的。
37:03
I was told that every一切 single day.
754
2211841
1661
37:05
When I got in the real真實 world世界, I was like,
wow, that's maybe not always so true真正.
755
2213526
4031
當我步入社會,我心說:
喔,原來也不完全是真的。
37:09
But I still believe in that.
756
2217581
1671
但我還仍然相信,
37:11
Maybe I'm being存在 too optimistic樂觀.
757
2219276
1573
可能我太樂觀了。
37:12
So I still look towards the future未來
for that to continue繼續.
758
2220873
3711
我仍然期待未來
大家依然相信美國夢。
DB:我覺得你太樂觀了。
37:17
DBD B: I think you're being存在 too optimistic樂觀.
759
2225108
2162
GC:你真這麽想?
37:19
GCGC: You do?
760
2227294
1158
DB:目前美國年輕人的薪水
超過其父母的比例——
37:20
DBD B: The odds可能性 of an American美國 young年輕 person
exceeding超額 their parents'父母' salary薪水 --
761
2228476
4032
37:24
a generation ago, like 86 percent百分 did it.
762
2232532
2537
30 年前大約有 86%,
37:27
Now 51 percent百分 do it.
763
2235093
1759
現在是 51%。
37:28
There's just been a problem問題
in social社會 mobility流動性 in the country國家.
764
2236876
3268
這只是國內社會流動性的問題。
37:32
CACA: You've written書面 that this entire整個
century世紀 has basically基本上 been a disaster災害,
765
2240168
4829
CA:你寫過整個世紀
基本上是場災難,
37:37
that the age年齡 of sunny晴朗 growth發展 is over
and we're in deep trouble麻煩.
766
2245021
5633
見風就長的年代已成過去,
現在我們深陷困境。
37:42
DBD B: Yeah, I mean, we averaged平均,
in real真實 terms條款, population-adjusted群體調整,
767
2250678
4459
DB:是的,實際上
我們調整後的平均人口,
37:47
two or three percent百分 growth發展 for 50 years年份,
768
2255161
2120
50 年來有 2-3% 增長,
現在增長不到 1%,
37:49
and now we've我們已經 had less
than one percent百分 growth發展.
769
2257305
2544
這說明一些問題。
37:51
And so there's something seeping滲出 out.
770
2259873
2499
37:54
And so if I'm going to tell people
that they should take risks風險,
771
2262396
4573
所以,如果我告訴大家
他們該冒點風險,
我們面臨的問題之一
就是流動性急劇下降,
37:58
one of the things we're seeing眼看
is a rapid快速 decline下降 in mobility流動性,
772
2266993
3047
跨州界的人數在下降,
38:02
the number of people who are moving移動
across橫過 state lines,
773
2270064
3369
38:05
and that's especially特別 true真正
among其中 millennials千禧.
774
2273457
3015
在千禧一代上尤為如此,
年輕人動的越來愈少。
38:08
It's young年輕 people that are moving移動 less.
775
2276496
1890
那如何給人們提供安全保障,
以便他們能承擔風險呢?
38:10
So how do we give people the security安全
from which哪一個 they can take risk風險?
776
2278410
3901
38:14
And I'm a big believer信徒 in attachment附件
theory理論 of raising提高 children孩子,
777
2282335
3582
而且,我是天道人倫的忠實粉絲,
38:17
and attachment附件 theory理論
is based基於 on the motto座右銘
778
2285941
2584
天道人倫來自格言:
即生活的本質是
基於安全的大膽冒險。
38:20
that all of life is a series系列
of daring大膽 adventures冒險 from a secure安全 base基礎.
779
2288549
4422
38:25
Have you parents父母 given特定 you a secure安全 base基礎?
780
2293579
2373
父母有給你安定的後盾嗎?
38:27
And as a society社會,
we do not have a secure安全 base基礎,
781
2295976
2373
作為社會,我們沒有安定的基礎,
我們不會幹勁十足地
去冒「漢密爾頓式」的險,
38:30
and we won't慣於 get to that "Hamilton漢密爾頓,"
risk-taking冒險, energetic有活力 ethos社會思潮
782
2298373
4388
38:34
until直到 we can supply供應 a secure安全 base基礎.
783
2302785
2457
直到我們能夠提供安全的基礎。
CA:所以我不知道是否有根據
38:37
CACA: So I wonder奇蹟 whether是否
there's ground地面 here
784
2305266
3399
38:40
to create創建 almost幾乎 like a shared共享 agenda議程,
a bridging橋接 conversation會話,
785
2308689
4757
創建出像共同的議程、
溝通的對話機制,
38:45
on the one hand recognizing認識
that there is this really deep problem問題
786
2313470
5346
一方面,要認識到
這個深層次的問題,
38:50
that the system系統,
the economic經濟 system系統 that we built內置,
787
2318840
2505
我們現有的經濟體制
當下似乎失敗了。
38:53
seems似乎 to be misfiring啞火 right now.
788
2321369
2920
38:57
Second第二, that maybe, if you're right
that it's not all about immigrants移民,
789
2325244
5370
再者,你有可能是對的,
這不全關乎移民,
可能更多的是技術,
39:02
it's probably大概 more about technology技術,
790
2330638
1958
39:04
if you could win贏得 that argument論據,
791
2332620
2024
如果能講通這觀點,
依我看,川普支持者和其他人之間
最最爭議的領域將不再顯著,
39:06
that de-emphasizes去強調 what seems似乎 to me
the single most divisive分裂 territory領土
792
2334668
5169
39:11
between之間 Trump王牌 supporters支持者 and others其他,
which哪一個 is around the role角色 of the other.
793
2339861
4054
這一切都是圍繞對方的。
39:15
It's very offensive進攻 to people on the left
to have the other demonized妖魔化
794
2343939
4050
左派的人很反感被對方妖化,
妖化程度說明對方已妖魔化。
39:20
to the extent程度 that the other
seems似乎 to be demonized妖魔化.
795
2348013
2705
39:22
That feels感覺 deeply immoral不道德,
796
2350742
2578
這感覺很不道德,
39:25
and maybe people on the left
could agree同意, as you said,
797
2353344
2870
如你所說,左派的可能會同意
39:28
that immigration移民
may可能 have happened發生 too fast快速,
798
2356238
2861
移民可能來得太快了,
超越人類社會掙扎的限度,
39:31
and there is a limit限制 beyond which哪一個
human人的 societies社會 struggle鬥爭,
799
2359123
4577
然而,假定自動化是關鍵問題,
39:35
but nonetheless儘管如此, this whole整個 problem問題
becomes de-emphasized去加重
800
2363724
4089
移民問題變得不那麽重要了,
39:39
if automation自動化 is the key issue問題,
801
2367837
2135
然後我們通力合作達成共識,
39:41
and then we try to work together一起
on recognizing認識 that it's real真實,
802
2369996
2954
39:44
recognizing認識 that the problem問題
probably大概 wasn't properly正確 addressed解決
803
2372974
3129
意識到問題可能沒有妥善處理好,
或沒有被發現或聽到,
39:48
or seen看到 or heard聽說,
804
2376127
1346
39:49
and try to figure數字 out
how to rebuild重建 communities社區
805
2377497
3309
然後試圖為重建社區找出路,
39:52
using運用, well, using運用 what?
806
2380830
2008
那要用什麼呢?
39:54
That seems似乎 to me to become成為
the fertile conversation會話 of the future未來:
807
2382862
4036
對我來説,這似乎
成為很多未來的話題:
隨著技術的推進,
39:58
How do we rebuild重建 communities社區
in this modern現代 age年齡,
808
2386922
3120
現代社會我們如何重建社區,
40:02
with technology技術 doing what it's doing,
809
2390066
2332
重塑這遠大前程?
40:04
and reimagine重新構想 this bright future未來?
810
2392422
2195
GC:這就是我回歸樂觀的原因。
40:06
GCGC: That's why I go back to optimism樂觀.
811
2394641
2103
40:08
I'm not being存在 ... it's not like
I'm not looking at the facts事實,
812
2396768
3875
我不是...這不是說我沒看事實,
我們從何處來,又要到哪裡去。
40:12
where we've我們已經 come or where we've我們已經 come from.
813
2400667
2438
40:15
But for gosh天哪 sakes緣故, if we don't look
at it from an optimistic樂觀 point of view視圖 --
814
2403129
3987
可是天哪,如果我們不樂觀的話,
我現在就不打算這樣做。
40:19
I'm refusing拒不 to do that just yet然而.
815
2407140
1704
我不會告訴我 12 歲和 13 歲的
孩子:「看,世界很悲觀。」
40:20
I'm not raising提高 my 12- and 13-year-old-歲
to say, "Look, the world世界 is dim暗淡."
816
2408868
4214
40:25
CACA; We're going to have
one more question from the room房間 here.
817
2413106
2996
CA:現場我們再來一個問題。
提問者:嗨,你好!不好意思,
40:28
Questioner發問 者: Hi你好. Hello你好. Sorry.
818
2416126
3666
你倆都提到了
基礎設施計劃和俄羅斯,
40:31
You both mentioned提到
the infrastructure基礎設施 plan計劃 and Russia俄國
819
2419816
3504
還有些不是老牌共和黨
優先考慮的事情。
40:35
and some other things that wouldn't不會 be
traditional傳統 Republican共和黨人 priorities優先.
820
2423344
5365
你們認為:共和黨人會如何
或何時會積極行動
40:40
What do you think, or when,
will Republicans共和黨人 be motivated動機
821
2428733
6569
40:47
to take a stand against反對 Trumpism特朗普主義?
822
2435326
3985
去表明反川普主義立場?
40:51
GCGC: After last night, not for a while.
823
2439739
2923
GC:昨晚之後,不會很快。
我想他昨晚變了很多。
40:54
He changed a lot last night, I believe.
824
2442686
2350
40:57
DBD B: His popularity聲望 among其中 Republicans共和黨人 --
he's got 85 percent百分 approval贊同,
825
2445060
3651
DB:他在共和黨人中的
受歡迎度有 85%,
41:00
which哪一個 is higher更高 than Reagan裡根
had at this time,
826
2448735
2220
這比雷根當年還高,
這是因為社會已經變得更加兩極化。
41:02
and that's because society社會
has just gotten得到 more polarized偏振.
827
2450979
2916
41:05
So people follow跟隨 the party派對
much more than they used to.
828
2453919
2649
人們比以往更加跟隨黨派。
41:08
So if you're waiting等候 for Paul保羅 Ryan瑞安
and the Republicans共和黨人 in Congress國會
829
2456592
3156
所以,如果你在等保羅·萊恩
和國會的共和黨人離開,
41:11
to flake薄片 away,
830
2459772
1159
41:12
it's going to take a little while.
831
2460955
1649
這是得花點時間。
GC:但也因為他們都關注連任,
41:14
GCGC: But also because they're all
concerned關心 about reelection蟬聯,
832
2462628
3482
不論是對支持者還是反對者,
41:18
and Trump王牌 has so much power功率
with getting得到 people either for you
833
2466134
3695
川普有很大的權力,
41:21
or against反對 you,
834
2469853
1441
41:23
and so, they're vacillating優柔寡斷
every一切 day, probably大概:
835
2471318
2338
所以他們可能每天都在糾結:
41:25
"Well, should I go against反對
or should I not?"
836
2473680
2116
「我是要反對還是不呢?」
但昨晚,他聼起來很有總統範,
41:27
But last night, where he finally最後
sounded滿面 presidential總統,
837
2475820
3499
我想大多數共和黨人
今天都鬆了口氣。
41:31
I think most Republicans共和黨人 are breathing呼吸
a sigh of relief浮雕 today今天.
838
2479343
3732
DB:主意改得好快。
41:35
DBD B: The half-life半衰期 of that is short.
839
2483099
2290
GC:是的——我本打算說,
等發佈推特後再評論吧。
41:37
GCGC: Right -- I was just going to say,
until直到 Twitter推特 happens發生 again.
840
2485413
3255
CA:好的,我打算
給你倆每人一次機會,
41:40
CACA: OK, I want to give
each of you the chance機會
841
2488692
3068
想像下你正在
41:43
to imagine想像 you're speaking請講
to -- I don't know --
842
2491784
3827
跟網上收看節目的人對話,
41:47
the people online線上 who are watching觀看 this,
843
2495635
1951
他們可能是川普的支持者,
41:49
who may可能 be Trump王牌 supporters支持者,
844
2497610
1546
41:51
who may可能 be on the left,
somewhere某處 in the middle中間.
845
2499180
3052
也可能是來自個左派,
或者左右派中間的某個位置,
41:54
How would you advise勸告 them to bridge
or to relate涉及 to other people?
846
2502829
6795
你會如何建議他們與其他人
彌補鴻溝或建立聯係?
42:01
Can you share分享 any final最後 wisdom智慧 on this?
847
2509648
4149
能分享一下相關的終極智慧嗎?
42:05
Or if you think that they shouldn't不能,
tell them that as well.
848
2513821
3774
或者你認為他們不應該這麽做,
也不妨說說看。
42:09
GCGC: I would just start開始 by saying
849
2517619
1636
GC:我會這麽說,
42:11
that I really think any change更改
and coming未來 together一起 starts啟動 from the top最佳,
850
2519279
4311
我真地認為任何改變和融合
從一開就始於頂層,
42:15
just like any other organization組織.
851
2523614
1938
就像任何組織一樣。
42:18
And I would love if, somehow不知何故,
852
2526714
2878
某種程度上,我會很高興看到
42:21
Trump王牌 supporters支持者 or people on the left
could encourage鼓勵 their leaders領導者
853
2529616
4563
不管是川普的支持者或者左派
都可以鼓勵他們的領導人
從高層展現出同情心,
42:26
to show顯示 that compassion同情 from the top最佳,
854
2534203
2552
42:28
because imagine想像 the change更改
that we could have
855
2536779
3674
想像下我們可能擁有的改變,
42:32
if Donald唐納德 Trump王牌 tweeted啾啾 out today今天,
856
2540477
2128
要是今天唐納•川普
向他的支持者發推文,
42:34
to all of his supporters支持者,
857
2542629
1661
42:36
"Let's not be vile惡劣 anymore to each other.
858
2544314
2660
「讓我們不再互相使壞,
42:38
Let's have more understanding理解.
859
2546998
1674
讓我們瞭解彼此。
作為一個領導者,
42:40
As a leader領導, I'm going
to be more inclusive包括的
860
2548696
2830
我將對所有美國人民更包容。」
42:43
to all of the people of America美國."
861
2551550
1935
42:46
To me, it starts啟動 at the top最佳.
862
2554392
2093
對我來說,它就是從高層開始。
他真要去做嗎?我不知道。
42:48
Is he going to do that? I have no idea理念.
863
2556509
3377
但我認為一切都從上層開始,
42:51
But I think that everything
starts啟動 from the top最佳,
864
2559910
2700
從他擁有的權利開始,
42:54
and the power功率 that he has
865
2562634
1729
42:56
in encouraging鼓舞人心的 his supporters支持者
866
2564387
2989
鼓勵他的支持者去瞭解
42:59
to have an understanding理解 of where
people are coming未來 from on the other side.
867
2567400
3813
來自另一陣營的人民。
CA:戴維。 DB:是的,我想我會說
43:04
CACA: David大衛. DBD B: Yeah, I guess猜測 I would say
868
2572497
2499
我認為我們不能教對方有禮貌,
43:07
I don't think we can teach
each other to be civil國內,
869
2575020
2742
43:09
and give us sermons布道 on civility禮貌.
870
2577786
1743
並對我們很客氣。
不是這回事。
43:11
That's not going to do it.
871
2579553
1244
這是本質,還有我們如何應對,
43:12
It's substance物質 and how we act法案,
872
2580821
1684
唐納•川普好的一面
是他粉碎了界限。
43:14
and the nice不錯 thing about Donald唐納德 Trump王牌
is he smashed被砸 our categories類別.
873
2582529
3619
43:18
All the categories類別 that we thought
we were thinking思維 in, they're obsolete過時的.
874
2586172
4122
我們以為我們所想的
全部分類,都已經過時了。
43:22
They were great for the 20th century世紀.
They're not good for today今天.
875
2590318
3082
在二十世紀這些是很了不起;
但今天不好使了。
他有個關閉邊界和貿易的議案。
43:25
He's got an agenda議程 which哪一個 is about
closing關閉 borders國界 and closing關閉 trade貿易.
876
2593424
3231
我想這些不會有效。
43:28
I just don't think it's going to work.
877
2596679
1825
我想如果我們打算
重建社區,再造就業,
43:30
I think if we want to rebuild重建
communities社區, recreate重建 jobs工作,
878
2598528
2821
我們需要另外的議案,
43:33
we need a different不同 set of agenda議程
879
2601373
1654
摧毀我們現有部門和當下的分類。
43:35
that smashes摔破 through通過 all our current當前
divisions and our current當前 categories類別.
880
2603051
3571
43:38
For me, that agenda議程 is Reaganism雷根主義
on macroeconomic宏觀經濟 policy政策,
881
2606646
3516
對我來說,這個議題是
宏觀經濟的雷根主義政策,
43:42
Sweden瑞典 on welfare福利 policy政策
882
2610186
2170
瑞典的福利政策,
43:44
and cuts削減 across橫過 right and left.
883
2612380
2202
以及跨越左右兩派。
我想我們要有個
生機勃勃的經濟去創造增長。
43:46
I think we have to have a dynamic動態
economy經濟 that creates創建 growth發展.
884
2614606
2937
那就是雷根的經濟政策。
43:49
That's the Reagan裡根 on economic經濟 policy政策.
885
2617567
1833
但人們得有安定的基礎:
43:51
But people have to have that secure安全 base基礎.
886
2619424
1965
43:53
There have to be
nurse-family護士系列 partnerships夥伴關係;
887
2621413
2051
得有看護家庭夥伴;
得普及學前教育;
43:55
there has to be universal普遍 preschool幼兒;
888
2623488
1778
得有實驗學校;
43:57
there have to be charter憲章 schools學校;
889
2625290
1995
還得有面向父母和社區的
43:59
there have to be college學院 programs程式
with wraparound概括的 programs程式
890
2627309
2968
包羅萬象的大學課程。
44:02
for parents父母 and communities社區.
891
2630301
1481
44:03
We need to help heal癒合 the crisis危機
of social社會 solidarity團結 in this country國家
892
2631806
4996
我們需要協助國家
從社會危機中恢復團結,
幫助撫慰家庭,
44:08
and help heal癒合 families家庭,
893
2636826
1496
44:10
and government政府 just has to get
a lot more involved參與
894
2638346
2334
政府必須積極參與,
就像自由主義者
喜歡的那樣去重建社區。
44:12
in the way liberals自由主義者 like
to rebuild重建 communities社區.
895
2640704
3663
44:16
At the other hand, we have to have
an economy經濟 that's free自由 and open打開
896
2644391
3222
另一方面,我們得有
自由和開放的經濟,
就像保守派過去喜歡的那種方式。
44:19
the way conservatives保守派 used to like.
897
2647637
1926
所以返璞歸正是如何打破
44:21
And so getting得到 the substance物質 right
is how you smash粉碎 through通過
898
2649587
3058
派別的身份認同,
44:24
the partisan黨派 identities身份,
899
2652669
1392
因為這是最終導致
我們兩極分化的本質。
44:26
because the substance物質 is what
ultimately最終 shapes形狀 our polarization極化.
900
2654085
3303
CA:非常感謝大偉和葛蕾琴,
44:30
CACA: David大衛 and Gretchen格雷琴, thank you so much
901
2658752
1969
非常精彩的對話。
44:32
for an absolutely絕對
fascinating迷人 conversation會話.
902
2660745
2135
謝謝。真地很有意思。
44:34
Thank you. That was really,
really interesting有趣.
903
2662904
3137
44:38
(Applause掌聲)
904
2666065
3323
(掌聲)
對話繼續。
44:41
Hey, let's keep the conversation會話 going.
905
2669412
4268
我們也將不斷嘗試並弄清楚
44:45
We're continuing繼續 to try and figure數字 out
906
2673704
2117
44:47
whether是否 we can add something here,
907
2675845
1636
看能不能加點內容,
讓話題轉到 Facebook上。
44:49
so keep the conversation會話
going on FacebookFacebook的.
908
2677505
2041
不管你來自政治光譜哪個位置,
歡迎向我們提供你的想法,
44:51
Give us your thoughts思念 from whatever隨你 part部分
of the political政治 spectrum光譜 you're on,
909
2679570
3690
或者不論你身處何處。
44:55
and actually其實, wherever哪裡
in the world世界 you are.
910
2683284
2061
這不只關乎美國,這還關乎全世界。
44:57
This is not just about America美國.
It's about the world世界, too.
911
2685369
2758
45:01
But we're not going
to end結束 today今天 without music音樂,
912
2689476
2334
今天不來點音樂,怎麽能結束呢。
45:03
because if we put music音樂
in every一切 political政治 conversation會話,
913
2691834
4792
如果我們在每個
政治對話中都放點音樂,
45:08
the world世界 would be
completely全然 different不同, frankly坦率地說.
914
2696650
2438
坦白說,世界會完全不一樣。
45:11
It just would.
915
2699112
1778
一定會的。
(掌聲)
45:12
(Applause掌聲)
916
2700914
2607
45:15
Up in Harlem哈林, this extraordinary非凡 woman女人,
917
2703545
2090
在哈林區,有這樣
一位了不起的女士,
45:17
Vy Higginsen希金森, who's誰是 actually其實 right here --
918
2705659
2425
瓦艾·黑格森,她就在現場——
請給個特寫。
45:20
let's get a shot射擊 of her.
919
2708108
1241
45:21
(Applause掌聲)
920
2709373
3369
(掌聲)
她創建了個聚合青少年的方案,
45:24
She created創建 this program程序
that brings帶來 teens青少年 together一起,
921
2712766
4283
45:29
teaches them the joy喜悅
and the impact碰撞 of gospel福音 music音樂,
922
2717073
3444
教他們福音音樂的快樂和感染,
45:32
and hundreds數以百計 of teens青少年 have gone走了
through通過 this program程序.
923
2720541
3979
數百位青少年參加過這個方案。
45:36
It's transformative變革 for them.
924
2724544
1519
對他們來說是變革。
45:38
The music音樂 they made製作, as you already已經 heard聽說,
925
2726087
2188
他們創作的音樂非常棒,
45:40
is extraordinary非凡,
926
2728299
1306
你已聽過的,
45:41
and I can't think of a better way
of ending結尾 this TEDTED Dialogue對話
927
2729629
4374
我再找不到更好的方式
來結束今天的 TED 對話。
45:46
than welcoming歡迎 Vy Higginsen's希金森的
Gospel福音 Choir唱詩班 from Harlem哈林.
928
2734027
3807
下面歡迎來自哈林區的
瓦艾·黑格森福音合唱團。
謝謝。
45:49
Thank you.
929
2737858
1177
45:51
(Applause掌聲)
930
2739059
3158
(掌聲)
(掌聲結束)
(歌聲)合唱團:哦,廣袤的天多美,
46:10
(Singing唱歌) Choir唱詩班: O beautiful美麗
for spacious寬敞 skies天空
931
2758888
4634
46:15
For amber琥珀色 waves波浪 of grain糧食
932
2763546
4932
飽碩的麥浪金黃,
46:20
For purple紫色 mountain majesties陛下
933
2768502
4724
莊嚴的山巒巍峨,
在這豐收的平原上。
46:25
Above以上 the fruited結實 plain
934
2773250
4706
美國!
46:29
America美國!
935
2777980
2171
46:34
America美國!
936
2782649
2624
美國!
美國!
46:39
America美國!
937
2787182
2206
46:42
America美國!
938
2790546
3260
美國!
46:48
God shed his grace恩典 on thee
939
2796318
4652
上帝保佑你,
46:52
And crown王冠 thy你的 good with brotherhood手足情誼
940
2800994
4415
兄弟般的情誼為你,
在亮閃閃的海面上,
46:57
From sea to shining閃亮的 sea
941
2805433
6987
在亮閃閃的海面上,
47:11
From sea to shining閃亮的 sea
942
2819648
6997
(掌聲)
47:25
(Applause掌聲)
943
2833417
6830
Reviewed by Carol Wang

▲Back to top

ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Gretchen Carlson - TV journalist, women's empowerment advocate
Gretchen Carlson is a tireless advocate for workplace equality and women's empowerment.

Why you should listen

Named one of TIME's 100 Most Influential People in the World for 2017, Gretchen Carlson is one of the nation's most highly acclaimed journalists and a warrior for women. In 2016, Carlson became the face of sexual harassment in the workplace after her lawsuit against Fox News Chairman and CEO Roger Ailes paved the way for thousands of other women facing harassment to tell their stories. Carlson's advocacy put her on the cover of TIME, and her new book, Be Fierce: Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back, joined the New York Times best-seller list the week it was published. She became a columnist for TIME's online "Motto" newsletter in 2017, focusing on gender and empowerment issues.

Carlson's ongoing work on behalf of women includes advocating for arbitration reform on Capitol Hill; in 2018, she plans to testify before Congress about workplace inequality and forced arbitration clauses in employment contracts. Carlson also created the Gift of Courage Fund and the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative to support empowerment, advocacy and anti-harassment programs for girls and underserved women.

Carlson hosted "The Real Story" on Fox News for three years; co-hosted "Fox and Friends" for seven years; and in her first book, Getting Real, became a national best-seller. She co-hosted "The Saturday Early Show" for CBS in 2000 and served as a CBS News correspondent covering stories including Geneoa's G-8 Summit, Timothy McVeigh’s execution, 9/11 from the World Trade Center and the Bush-Gore election. She started her reporting career in Richmond, Virginia, then served as an anchor and reporter in Cincinnati, Cleveland and Dallas, where she produced and reported a 30-part series on domestic violence that won several national awards.

An honors graduate of Stanford University, Carlson was valedictorian of her high school class and studied at Oxford University in England. A child prodigy on the violin, she performed as a soloist with the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra at age 13, and in 1989, became the first classical violinist to win the Miss America crown.

Ever grateful for the opportunities provided to her and imbued with a "never give up" attitude, Carlson has mentored dozens of young women throughout her career. She serves as a national trustee for the March of Dimes, a member of the board of directors for the Catherine Violet Hubbard Animal Sanctuary in Newtown, Connecticut and a trustee of Greenwich Academy, an all-girls preparatory day school in Greenwich, Connecticut. Carlson is married to sports agent Casey Close and mom to their two children.

More profile about the speaker
Gretchen Carlson | Speaker | TED.com
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir - Gospel ensemble
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is an influential source of education and self-development for young people.

Why you should listen

Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is a celebrated group of performers elevated from the Mama Foundation for the Arts' Music School of Gospel, Jazz and R&B. The Foundation, founded by the writer/producer of Mama, I Want to Sing!, is a highly respected and influential source of education and self-development for young people. The award-winning, nationally recognized program offers performance choirs small, medium, and large and has been seen accompanying many of today's pop icons including Ariana Grande, Chance the Rapper, Pharrell Williams, Alessia Cara and Madonna.

In addition to various performances and collaborations throughout New York City, the choir enjoys weekly performances in Harlem. They can be seen every Sunday headlining Ginny Supper Club's Gospel Brunch at Marcus Samuelson's acclaimed restaurant, Red Rooster, which is ranked one of the top five gospel brunches in the nation. The choir will begin Saturday performances in The Harlem Gospel Concert Series beginning April 15th at The Dempsey Theater in Harlem.

More profile about the speaker
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir | Speaker | TED.com
David Brooks - Op-ed columnist
Writer and thinker David Brooks has covered business, crime and politics over a long career in journalism.

Why you should listen

David Brooks became an Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times in September 2003. He is currently a commentator on "The PBS Newshour," NPR’s "All Things Considered" and NBC's "Meet the Press."

He is the author of Bobos in Paradise and The Social Animal. In April 2015, he released with his fourth book, The Road to Character, which was a #1 New York Times bestseller.

Brooks also teaches at Yale University, and is a member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.

Born on August 11, 1961 in Toronto, Canada, Brooks graduated a bachelor of history from the University of Chicago in 1983. He became a police reporter for the City News Bureau, a wire service owned jointly by the Chicago Tribune and Sun-Times.

He worked at The Washington Times and then The Wall Street Journal for nine years. His last post at the Journal was as Op-ed Editor. Prior to that, he was posted in Brussels, covering Russia, the Middle East, South Africa and European affairs. His first post at the Journal was as editor of the book review section, and he filled in as the Journal's movie critic.

He also served as a senior editor at The Weekly Standard for 9 years, as well as contributing editor for The Atlantic and Newsweek.

More profile about the speaker
David Brooks | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.

Why you should listen

Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.

Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.

Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.

Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.

This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.

He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.

In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.

Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.

More profile about the speaker
Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com