ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Gretchen Carlson - TV journalist, women's empowerment advocate
Gretchen Carlson is a tireless advocate for workplace equality and women's empowerment.

Why you should listen

Named one of TIME's 100 Most Influential People in the World for 2017, Gretchen Carlson is one of the nation's most highly acclaimed journalists and a warrior for women. In 2016, Carlson became the face of sexual harassment in the workplace after her lawsuit against Fox News Chairman and CEO Roger Ailes paved the way for thousands of other women facing harassment to tell their stories. Carlson's advocacy put her on the cover of TIME, and her new book, Be Fierce: Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back, joined the New York Times best-seller list the week it was published. She became a columnist for TIME's online "Motto" newsletter in 2017, focusing on gender and empowerment issues.

Carlson's ongoing work on behalf of women includes advocating for arbitration reform on Capitol Hill; in 2018, she plans to testify before Congress about workplace inequality and forced arbitration clauses in employment contracts. Carlson also created the Gift of Courage Fund and the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative to support empowerment, advocacy and anti-harassment programs for girls and underserved women.

Carlson hosted "The Real Story" on Fox News for three years; co-hosted "Fox and Friends" for seven years; and in her first book, Getting Real, became a national best-seller. She co-hosted "The Saturday Early Show" for CBS in 2000 and served as a CBS News correspondent covering stories including Geneoa's G-8 Summit, Timothy McVeigh’s execution, 9/11 from the World Trade Center and the Bush-Gore election. She started her reporting career in Richmond, Virginia, then served as an anchor and reporter in Cincinnati, Cleveland and Dallas, where she produced and reported a 30-part series on domestic violence that won several national awards.

An honors graduate of Stanford University, Carlson was valedictorian of her high school class and studied at Oxford University in England. A child prodigy on the violin, she performed as a soloist with the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra at age 13, and in 1989, became the first classical violinist to win the Miss America crown.

Ever grateful for the opportunities provided to her and imbued with a "never give up" attitude, Carlson has mentored dozens of young women throughout her career. She serves as a national trustee for the March of Dimes, a member of the board of directors for the Catherine Violet Hubbard Animal Sanctuary in Newtown, Connecticut and a trustee of Greenwich Academy, an all-girls preparatory day school in Greenwich, Connecticut. Carlson is married to sports agent Casey Close and mom to their two children.

More profile about the speaker
Gretchen Carlson | Speaker | TED.com
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir - Gospel ensemble
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is an influential source of education and self-development for young people.

Why you should listen

Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is a celebrated group of performers elevated from the Mama Foundation for the Arts' Music School of Gospel, Jazz and R&B. The Foundation, founded by the writer/producer of Mama, I Want to Sing!, is a highly respected and influential source of education and self-development for young people. The award-winning, nationally recognized program offers performance choirs small, medium, and large and has been seen accompanying many of today's pop icons including Ariana Grande, Chance the Rapper, Pharrell Williams, Alessia Cara and Madonna.

In addition to various performances and collaborations throughout New York City, the choir enjoys weekly performances in Harlem. They can be seen every Sunday headlining Ginny Supper Club's Gospel Brunch at Marcus Samuelson's acclaimed restaurant, Red Rooster, which is ranked one of the top five gospel brunches in the nation. The choir will begin Saturday performances in The Harlem Gospel Concert Series beginning April 15th at The Dempsey Theater in Harlem.

More profile about the speaker
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir | Speaker | TED.com
David Brooks - Op-ed columnist
Writer and thinker David Brooks has covered business, crime and politics over a long career in journalism.

Why you should listen

David Brooks became an Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times in September 2003. He is currently a commentator on "The PBS Newshour," NPR’s "All Things Considered" and NBC's "Meet the Press."

He is the author of Bobos in Paradise and The Social Animal. In April 2015, he released with his fourth book, The Road to Character, which was a #1 New York Times bestseller.

Brooks also teaches at Yale University, and is a member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.

Born on August 11, 1961 in Toronto, Canada, Brooks graduated a bachelor of history from the University of Chicago in 1983. He became a police reporter for the City News Bureau, a wire service owned jointly by the Chicago Tribune and Sun-Times.

He worked at The Washington Times and then The Wall Street Journal for nine years. His last post at the Journal was as Op-ed Editor. Prior to that, he was posted in Brussels, covering Russia, the Middle East, South Africa and European affairs. His first post at the Journal was as editor of the book review section, and he filled in as the Journal's movie critic.

He also served as a senior editor at The Weekly Standard for 9 years, as well as contributing editor for The Atlantic and Newsweek.

More profile about the speaker
David Brooks | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.

Why you should listen

Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.

Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.

Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.

Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.

This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.

He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.

In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.

Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.

More profile about the speaker
Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com
TED Dialogues

Gretchen Carlson, David Brooks: Political common ground in a polarized United States

Gretchen Carlso, David Brooks: Um terreno político comum nos Estados Unidos polarizado.

Filmed:
1,044,128 views

Como podemos tapar o buraco que existe entre a esquerda e a direita para podermos ter uma discussão mais sábia e unida? A jornalista Gretchen Carlson e o colunista de oposição David Brooks compartilham seus conhecimentos sobre as tensões que existem no coração da política norte-americana de hoje -- e como podemos chegar a um meio termo. Seguida de uma performance estimulante de "America the Beautiful" pelo Coro Gospel de Harlem, de Vy Higginsen.
- TV journalist, women's empowerment advocate
Gretchen Carlson is a tireless advocate for workplace equality and women's empowerment. Full bio - Gospel ensemble
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is an influential source of education and self-development for young people. Full bio - Op-ed columnist
Writer and thinker David Brooks has covered business, crime and politics over a long career in journalism. Full bio - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

Chris Anderson: Bem-vindos
a esta edição dos Diálogos TED.
00:12
Chris Anderson: Welcome
to this next edition of TED Dialogues.
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00:17
We're trying to do
some bridging here today.
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Tentaremos criar uma ponte hoje.
00:20
You know, the American dream
has inspired millions of people
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O sonho americano
tem inspirado milhões de pessoas
00:23
around the world for many years.
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ao redor do mundo por muitos anos.
00:26
Today, I think, you can say
that America is divided,
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Acho que, hoje, podemos dizer
que os Estados Unidos estão divididos,
talvez mais do que nunca,
e essas divisões parecem estar piorando.
00:32
perhaps more than ever,
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00:34
and the divisions seem
to be getting worse.
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É muito difícil que pessoas com visões
diferentes sequer conversem.
00:36
It's actually really hard
for people on different sides
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00:40
to even have a conversation.
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00:41
People almost feel...
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As pessoas quase sentem
nojo umas das outras.
00:44
disgusted with each other.
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00:46
Some families can't even speak
to each other right now.
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Algumas famílias não conseguem
nem conversar entre si.
00:51
Our purpose in this dialogue today
is to try to do something about that,
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Nosso propósito nesta conversa de hoje
é tentar fazer algo em relação a isso,
00:56
to try to have a different kind
of conversation,
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tentar ter um tipo diferente de conversa,
00:58
to do some listening, some thinking,
some understanding.
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e que escutemos, pensemos e entendamos.
01:03
And I have two people with us
to help us do that.
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Duas pessoas irão nos ajudar nisso.
01:06
They're not going to come at this
hammer and tong against each other.
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Elas não virão aqui
para martelar suas ideias e brigar.
01:09
This is not like cable news.
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Não é igual ao noticiário.
01:11
This is two people who have both spent
a lot of their working life
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São duas pessoas que passaram
muito tempo de suas carreiras
01:17
in the political center
or right of the center.
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no centro ou na direita política.
01:19
They've immersed themselves
in conservative worldviews, if you like.
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Elas estavam imersas em opiniões
conservadoras, se você preferir.
01:23
They know that space very well.
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Elas conhecem essa área muito bem.
01:25
And we're going to explore together
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E nós vamos explorar juntos
01:27
how to think about
what is happening right now,
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como pensar sobre o que está
acontecendo no momento
01:30
and whether we can find new ways to bridge
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e se é possível ou não acharmos
novas formas de nos unirmos
01:33
and just to have wiser,
more connected conversations.
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para termos conversas
mais conectadas e sensatas.
01:36
With me, first of all, Gretchen Carlson,
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Primeiramente, Gretchen Carlson,
01:39
who has spent a decade
working at Fox News,
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que trabalhou na Fox News por dez anos
apresentando o programa "Fox and Friends"
e depois o "The Real Story",
01:45
hosting "Fox and Friends"
and then "The Real Story,"
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01:49
before taking a courageous stance
in filing sexual harassment claims
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antes de ter o ato corajoso de fazer
uma denúncia de assédio sexual
01:55
against Roger Ailes,
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contra Roger Alies,
01:56
which eventually led
to his departure from Fox News.
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o que acabou levando
à saída dele da Fox News.
02:00
David Brooks, who has earned the wrath
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David Brooks, que conquistou a raiva
02:03
of many of [The New York Times's]
left-leaning readers
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de muitos leitores de esquerda
do "The New York Times"
02:06
because of his conservative views,
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por causa de suas opiniões conservadoras
e agora, também, a raiva
de alguns leitores da direita política,
02:09
and more recently, perhaps,
some of the right-leaning readers
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02:12
because of his criticism
of some aspects of Trump.
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devido a suas críticas
a alguns aspectos do Trump.
02:16
Yet, his columns are usually
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Mesmo assim, suas colunas estão sempre
entre os conteúdos mais lidos do dia,
02:18
the top one, two or three
most-read content of the day
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02:23
because they're brilliant,
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pois são brilhantes e trazem
a psicologia e as ciências sociais
02:24
because they bring psychology
and social science
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02:26
to providing understanding
for what's going on.
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que provêm um entendimento
do que está acontecendo.
02:30
So without further ado, a huge welcome
to Gretchen and David.
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Sem mais demora, deem boas-vindas
à Gretchen e ao David.
02:33
Come and join me.
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Juntem-se à mim.
02:34
(Applause)
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(Aplausos)
02:38
So, Gretchen.
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Então, Gretchen,
02:41
Sixty-three million Americans
voted for Donald Trump.
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63 milhões de norte-americanos
votaram em Donald Trump.
02:46
Why did they do this?
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Por que eles fizeram isso?
02:48
Gretchen Carlson: There are a lot
of reasons, in my mind, why it happened.
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Gretchen Carlson: Creio que há muitas
razões para que isso tenha ocorrido.
02:51
I mean, I think it was a movement
of sorts, but it started long ago.
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Creio que tenha sido um tipo
de movimento que começou há tempos.
02:55
It didn't just happen overnight.
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Não foi da noite para o dia.
02:56
"Anger" would be the first word
that I would think of --
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"Raiva" seria a primeira palavra
que me vem à cabeça...
02:59
anger with nothing
being done in Washington,
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raiva de nada acontecer em Washington,
03:04
anger about not being heard.
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raiva de não ser escutado.
03:07
I think there was a huge swath
of the population
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Acho que há uma grande parte da população
03:10
that feels like Washington
never listens to them,
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que sente que Washington nunca os escuta,
03:13
you know, a good part of the middle
of America, not just the coasts,
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uma grande parte do centro
dos EUA, não só o litoral,
03:17
and he was somebody they felt
was listening to their concerns.
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e ele foi uma pessoa que eles acharam
que ouvia suas preocupações.
Acho que foi devido a essas duas questões.
03:22
So I think those two issues
would be the main reason.
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03:26
I have to throw in there also celebrity.
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Também tenho que considerar a fama.
Creio que isso teve um grande impacto
na eleição de Trump.
03:29
I think that had a huge impact
on Donald Trump becoming president.
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03:35
CA: Was the anger justified?
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CA: Seria essa raiva justificada?
03:38
David Brooks: Yeah, I think so.
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David Brooks: Acho que sim.
Em 2015 e no início de de 2016,
escrevi cerca de 30 colunas
03:39
In 2015 and early 2016,
I wrote about 30 columns
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03:43
with the following theme:
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com o seguinte tema:
acalmem-se, Donald Trump nunca
será o candidato do partido republicano.
03:45
don't worry, Donald Trump will never
be the Republican nominee.
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03:48
(Laughter)
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(Risos)
Após ter feito isso e errado feio,
03:49
And having done that
and gotten that so wrong,
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03:51
I decided to spend the ensuing year
just out in Trumpworld,
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decidi passar o ano seguinte
no mundo Trump,
03:54
and I found a lot of economic dislocation.
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e vi muita deslocalização econômica.
03:57
I ran into a woman in West Virginia
who was going to a funeral for her mom.
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Falei com uma mulher na Virgínia Ocidental
a caminho do funeral de sua mãe.
04:01
She said, "The nice thing about
being Catholic is we don't have to speak,
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Ela disse: "O bom de ser católica
é que não temos que falar,
isso é bom, pois não somos
de muitas palavras".
04:04
and that's good,
because we're not word people."
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Isso me marcou: "pessoas de palavras".
04:07
That phrase rung in my head: word people.
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04:09
A lot of us in the TED community
are word people,
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Muitos de nós na comunidade TED
somos pessoas de palavras,
04:11
but if you're not, the economy
has not been angled toward you,
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mas, se não for,
a economia funciona contra você,
04:14
and so 11 million men, for example,
are out of the labor force
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assim, 11 milhões de homens, por exemplo,
estão fora do mercado de trabalho
pois aqueles trabalhos acabaram.
04:18
because those jobs are done away.
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04:20
A lot of social injury.
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Muito dano social.
04:21
You used to be able to say,
"I'm not the richest person in the world,
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Costumávamos dizer:
"Não sou a pessoa mais rica do mundo,
não sou a mais famosa,
04:25
I'm not the most famous,
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mas meus vizinhos podem contar comigo,
e eu vejo dignidade nisso".
04:26
but my neighbors can count on me
and I get some dignity out of that."
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04:29
And because of celebritification
or whatever, if you're not rich or famous,
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Com essa coisa de celebridade,
se não for rico ou famoso,
você se sente invisível.
04:33
you feel invisible.
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04:34
And a lot of moral injury,
sense of feeling betrayed,
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Há muito dano social
e uma sensação de traição,
04:37
and frankly, in this country,
we almost have one success story,
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e, francamente, neste país,
temos um caminho para o sucesso,
04:41
which is you go to college, get
a white-collar job, and you're a success,
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que é ingressar na faculdade,
virar um executivo, daí vem o sucesso,
04:45
and if you don't fit in that formula,
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e, se você não se encaixa nessa fórmula,
você sente que não angariou respeito.
04:47
you feel like you're not respected.
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04:49
And so that accumulation of things --
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Esta acumulação de coisas,
04:51
and when I talked to Trump
voters and still do,
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e quando falei com o eleitorado do Trump,
04:53
I found most of them completely
realistic about his failings,
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achei que muitos deles
são realistas sobre as falhas dele,
04:56
but they said, this is my shot.
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mas eles diziam: "Esta é minha chance".
04:59
GC: And yet I predicted
that he would be the nominee,
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GC: Ainda assim, eu previ
que ele seria o candidato,
05:02
because I've known him for 27 years.
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pois o conheço há 27 anos.
05:04
He's a master marketer,
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Ele é um mestre de marketing,
05:06
and one of the things
he did extremely well
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e uma das coisas que ele fez muito bem,
05:08
that President Obama also did
extremely well,
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e que o Presidente Obama também fez bem,
05:10
was simplifying the message,
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foi simplificar a mensagem,
05:12
simplifying down to phrases
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resumi-la a frases
05:15
and to a populist message.
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e a uma mensagem populista.
05:17
Even if he can't achieve it,
it sounded good.
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Mesmo que ele não fosse
fazer aquilo, soava muito bem.
05:21
And many people latched on
to that simplicity again.
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E muitas pessoas se prenderam
a essa simplicidade novamente.
05:24
It's something they could grasp onto:
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Era algo que eles poderiam palpar:
05:26
"I get that. I want that.
That sounds fantastic."
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"Entendo. Quero isso. Isso soa incrível".
05:30
And I remember when he used to come
on my show originally,
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E me lembro de quando
ele vinha ao meu programa,
05:33
before "The Apprentice"
was even "The Apprentice,"
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antes do "The Apprentice" ser famoso
e ele falava que era
o programa mais famoso da TV.
05:36
and he'd say it was the number
one show on TV.
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Eu o contrariava: "Não, não é".
05:38
I'd say back to him, "No, it's not."
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05:40
And he would say, "Yes it is, Gretchen."
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Ele respondia: "É, sim, Gretchen".
05:42
And I would say, "No it's not."
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Novamente eu dizia: "Não, não é".
05:44
But people at home would see that,
and they'd be like,
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Mas as pessoas em casa
assistiam aquilo, pensando:
"Nossa, tenho de assistir
ao programa mais famoso da TV".
05:46
"Wow, I should be watching
the number one show on TV."
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05:49
And -- lo and behold -- it became
the number one show on TV.
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Eis que se tornou o programa
número um da TV.
05:52
So he had this, I've seen
this ability in him
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Logo, vi que ele tinha essa habilidade
05:55
to be the master marketer.
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de ser o mestre em marketing.
05:57
CA: It's puzzling
to a lot of people on the left
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CA: É surpreendente
para muitos na esquerda
06:00
that so many women voted for him,
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que tantas mulheres votaram nele,
06:03
despite some of his comments.
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apesar de seus comentários.
06:05
GC: I wrote a column
about this for Time Motto,
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GC: Escrevi uma coluna
sobre isso na "Time Motto",
06:08
saying that I really believe
that lot of people put on blinders,
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dizendo que muitas pessoas
vendam os olhos...
06:13
and maybe for the first time,
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...e talvez pela primeira vez,
06:16
some people decided
that policies they believed in
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algumas delas decidiram
que as políticas em que acreditavam
06:19
and being heard
and not being invisible anymore
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2548
e ser escutado, e não ser mais invisível,
06:21
was more important to them
124
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1951
eram mais importantes para elas
06:23
than the way in which he had acted
or acts as a human.
125
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3576
do que a maneira como ele age
como um ser humano.
06:27
And so human dignity --
126
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2048
Assim, dignidade humana,
06:29
whether it would be the dust-up
about the disabled reporter,
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3468
seja a polêmica
sobre o repórter deficiente
06:33
or what happened
in that audiotape with Billy Bush
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2540
ou o que aconteceu
no vídeo com o Billy Bush,
06:36
and the way in which he spoke
about women --
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2205
ou do jeito como ele falou das mulheres,
06:39
they put that aside
130
387301
1947
as pessoas deixaram isso de lado
06:41
and pretended as if
they hadn't seen that or heard that,
131
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2621
e fingiram que não viram
ou escutaram aquilo,
06:43
because to them,
policies were more important.
132
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4036
pois, para elas, o mais importante
era a plataforma política dele.
06:47
CA: Right, so just because
someone voted for Trump,
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CA: Certo. Então só porque
alguém votou no Trump
06:50
it's not blind adherence to everything
that he's said or stood for.
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3727
não quer dizer que eles apoiam
tudo o que ele fala e acredita.
06:54
GC: No. I heard a lot of people
that would say to me,
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2822
GC: Não. Ouvi muitas pessoas que diziam:
06:57
"Wow, I just wish he would shut up
before the election.
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3063
"Puxa, queria muito só que ele
se calasse antes da eleição.
07:00
If he would just stay quiet,
he'd get elected."
137
408496
2702
Se ele conseguir ficar quieto,
vai ser eleito".
07:04
CA: And so, maybe for people on the left
there's a trap there,
138
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2937
CA: Talvez seja uma armadilha
para as pessoas da esquerda
07:07
to sort of despise
or just be baffled by the support,
139
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5578
apenas desprezar
ou se estarrecer com o apoio,
07:12
assuming that it's for some
of the unattractive features.
140
420646
3084
presumindo que o apoio
seja para aqueles comentários ruins.
Mas talvez o apoio venha
apesar desses comentários,
07:15
Actually, maybe they're supporting
him despite those,
141
423754
2545
07:18
because they see something exciting.
142
426323
1786
pois as pessoas veem algo promissor,
um homem de ação.
07:20
They see a man of action.
143
428133
1342
07:21
They see the choking hold of government
being thrown off in some way
144
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5058
Veem o poder asfixiante do governo
ser desestabilizado de alguma maneira,
07:26
and they're excited by that.
145
434581
1339
e elas se animaram com isso.
07:27
GC: But don't forget we saw that
on the left as well -- Bernie Sanders.
146
435944
3376
GC: Mas isso também aconteceu
na esquerda, com o Bernie Sanders.
Creio que esse é um dos pontos comuns
que podemos discutir hoje.
07:31
So this is one of the commonalities
that I think we can talk about today,
147
439344
3954
07:35
"The Year of the Outsider,"
David -- right?
148
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3043
"O Ano do Estrangeiro", não é, David?
07:39
And even though Bernie Sanders
has been in Congress for a long time,
149
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3265
E, apesar de Bernie Sanders
estar no congresso há tempos,
07:42
he was deemed an outsider this time.
150
450292
2213
ele foi considerado um estrangeiro.
07:44
And so there was anger
on the left as well,
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452529
2342
Logo, também houve raiva na esquerda,
07:46
and so many people were in favor
of Bernie Sanders.
152
454895
3451
e muitas pessoas apoiaram Bernie Sanders.
07:50
So I see it as a commonality.
153
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3888
Vejo aí um ponto comum.
07:54
People who like Trump,
people who like Bernie Sanders,
154
462766
2579
Os que gostam de Trump
e os que gostam de Bernie Sanders,
07:57
they were liking different policies,
but the underpinning was anger.
155
465369
3803
eles apoiavam políticas distintas,
mas a base era a raiva.
08:01
CA: David, there's often
this narrative, then,
156
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4570
CA: David, muitas vezes há uma narrativa,
08:05
that the sole explanation
for Trump's victory and his rise
157
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5191
em que a única explicação
da vitória e ascensão de Trump
08:11
is his tapping into anger
in a very visceral way.
158
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4952
foi sua forma visceral de usar a raiva.
08:15
But you've written a bit about
that it's actually more than that,
159
483981
4658
Mas você escreveu que é mais do que isso,
08:20
that there's a worldview
that's being worked on here.
160
488663
3198
que há uma visão de mundo sendo criada.
08:23
Could you talk about that?
161
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1273
Você poderia falar disso?
08:25
DB: I would say he understood what,
frankly, I didn't,
162
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2555
DB: Diria que ele entendeu
o que eu não entendi:
08:27
which is what debate we were having.
163
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1856
que debate estávamos tendo.
08:29
And so I'd grown up starting with Reagan,
164
497641
2433
Eu cresci com o Reagan,
08:32
and it was the big government
versus small government debate.
165
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2904
e o debate era: o governo
grande contra o pequeno.
08:35
It was Barry Goldwater
versus George McGovern,
166
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2189
Era o Barry Goldwater
contra o George McGovern,
08:37
and that was the debate
we had been having for a generation.
167
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4105
e esse era o debate que temos tido
por toda uma geração.
08:41
It was: Democrats wanted to use
government to enhance equality,
168
509368
4165
Democratas queriam usar
o governo para aumentar a igualdade,
republicanos queriam limitar
o governo para aumentar a liberdade.
08:45
Republicans wanted to limit government
to enhance freedom.
169
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2748
Esse que era o debate.
08:48
That was the debate.
170
516329
1183
08:49
He understood what I think
the two major parties did not,
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2810
Creio que ele entendeu
o que esses partidos não entenderam,
08:52
which was that's not the debate anymore.
172
520370
1944
que esse não é mais o debate.
08:54
The debate is now open versus closed.
173
522338
2329
O debate agora é: aberto contra o fechado.
08:56
On one side are those who have
the tailwinds of globalization
174
524691
3266
De um lado há aqueles
que têm os ventos da globalização
08:59
and the meritocracy blowing at their back,
175
527981
2233
e da meritocracia os impulsionando,
09:02
and they tend to favor open trade,
176
530238
2399
eles tendem a favorecer o mercado,
fronteiras e costumes sociais abertos,
09:04
open borders, open social mores,
177
532661
1985
09:06
because there are so many opportunities.
178
534670
1962
pois existem muitas oportunidades.
09:08
On the other side are those
who feel the headwinds of globalization
179
536656
3456
Do outro lado há aqueles
que sentem os ventos da globalização
09:12
and the meritocracy
just blasting in their faces,
180
540136
2392
e da meritocracia atacá-los bem na cara,
09:14
and they favor closed trade,
closed borders, closed social mores,
181
542552
3931
eles são a favor de mercados,
fronteiras e costumes sociais fechados,
09:18
because they just want some security.
182
546507
2091
pois o que eles querem é segurança.
09:20
And so he was right
on that fundamental issue,
183
548622
2144
Ele estava correto
nessa questão fundamental,
e as pessoas ignoraram muita coisa
para conseguirem isso.
09:22
and people were willing
to overlook a lot to get there.
184
550790
2652
09:25
And so he felt that sense of security.
185
553466
2107
Daí, ele se sentiu seguro.
09:27
We're speaking the morning after
Trump's joint session speech.
186
555597
4329
Estamos falando da manhã seguinte
ao discurso do Trump na sessão conjunta.
09:31
There are three traditional
groups in the Republican Party.
187
559950
2826
Há três grupos tradicionais
no Partido Republicano.
Há os falcões da política externa,
que veem os EUA como a polícia do mundo.
09:34
There are the foreign policies hawks
188
562800
1778
09:36
who believe in America
as global policeman.
189
564602
2055
Trump repudiou completamente essa visão.
09:38
Trump totally repudiated that view.
190
566681
1853
09:40
Second, there was the social conservatives
191
568558
2046
Segundo, há os conservadores sociais,
que acreditam na liberdade religiosa,
09:42
who believed in religious liberty,
192
570628
1707
09:44
pro-life,
193
572359
1913
pró-vida,
09:46
prayer in schools.
194
574296
2469
rezas nas escolas.
Ele ignorou completamente isso.
09:49
He totally ignored that.
195
577710
1645
09:51
There was not a single mention
of a single social conservative issue.
196
579379
3435
Não houve nenhuma menção sobre
as questões dos conservadores sociais.
Depois, há os falcões fiscais,
09:54
And then there were the fiscal hawks,
197
582838
1819
09:56
the people who wanted to cut down
on the national debt, Tea Party,
198
584681
3118
as pessoas que queriam cortar
a dívida nacional, o Tea Party,
cortar o tamanho do governo,
e Trump está expandindo o governo!
09:59
cut the size of government.
199
587823
1306
10:01
He's expanding the size of government!
200
589153
1855
Ele é um homem que conseguiu, sozinho,
revolucionar um partido grande,
10:03
Here's a man who has single-handedly
revolutionized a major American party
201
591032
3682
pois ele entendeu qual era a direção
do debate antes dos outros.
10:06
because he understood
where the debate was headed
202
594738
2973
10:09
before other people.
203
597735
1347
10:11
And then guys like Steve Bannon come in
204
599106
2015
Então, pessoas como Steve Bannon vêm
e dão substância aos impulsos de Trump.
10:13
and give him substance to his impulses.
205
601145
2027
10:16
CA: And so take that a bit further,
206
604207
1769
CA: Vamos levar isso mais além,
10:18
and maybe expand a bit more
on your insights
207
606000
3755
e talvez expandir um pouco
mais suas ideias
10:21
into Steve Bannon's worldview.
208
609779
2263
sobre o ponto de vista de Steve Bannon.
Pois, às vezes, em termos simples,
ele é taxado como perigoso,
10:24
Because he's sometimes tarred
in very simple terms
209
612066
2732
10:26
as this dangerous, racist,
xenophobic, anger-sparking person.
210
614822
6611
racista, xenofóbico e provocador de raiva.
Tem mais coisa na história;
talvez seja uma simplificação injusta.
10:33
There's more to the story;
that is perhaps an unfair simplification.
211
621457
4516
DB: Acho que essa parte é verdade,
10:37
DB: I think that part is true,
212
625997
1436
10:39
but there's another part
that's probably true, too.
213
627457
2470
mas há uma outra parte
que também é verdade.
Ele faz parte de um movimento global.
10:41
He's part of a global movement.
214
629951
2160
10:44
It's like being around Marxists in 1917.
215
632135
2685
É como conviver com marxistas em 1917.
10:46
There's him here, there's the UKIP party,
there's the National Front in France,
216
634844
4196
Aqui, temos ele; no Reino Unido, o partido
da UKIP; na França, a Frente Nacional.
10:51
there's Putin, there's a Turkish version,
a Philippine version.
217
639064
3045
Temos o Putin, a versão turca
e a versão filipina.
10:54
So we have to recognize that this
is a global intellectual movement.
218
642133
3471
Temos que reconhecer que esse
é um movimento intelectual global.
E ele acredita
10:57
And it believes
219
645628
1215
10:58
that wisdom and virtue is not held
in individual conversation and civility
220
646867
5257
que a sabedoria e a virtude não estão
nas conversas individuais e civilizadas,
11:04
the way a lot of us
in the enlightenment side of the world do.
221
652148
3402
como muitos de nós
no mundo iluminista acreditamos.
11:07
It's held in -- the German word
is the "volk" -- in the people,
222
655574
3578
Elas estão nas pessoas,
a palavra alemã é "volk",
11:11
in the common, instinctive wisdom
of the plain people.
223
659176
2860
nas pessoas comuns, na sabedoria
instintiva das pessoas simples.
11:14
And the essential virtue of that people
is always being threatened by outsiders.
224
662730
4948
E a virtude essencial dessas pessoas
é sempre ameaçada por estrangeiros.
11:19
And he's got a strategy
for how to get there.
225
667702
2683
E ele tem uma estratégia
para atingir isso.
11:22
He's got a series of policies
to bring the people up
226
670409
4028
Ele tem uma série de políticas
que irão juntar as pessoas
11:26
and repudiate the outsiders,
227
674461
2326
e repudiar os estrangeiros,
11:28
whether those outsiders
are Islam, Mexicans, the media,
228
676811
4769
sejam eles islâmicos, mexicanos, a mídia,
11:33
the coastal elites...
229
681604
1870
as elites liberais...
11:35
And there's a whole worldview there;
it's a very coherent worldview.
230
683498
3313
É uma uma visão de mundo bem coerente.
11:38
I sort of have more respect for him.
231
686835
1899
Eu tenho mais respeito por ele.
11:40
I loathe what he stands for
and I think he's wrong on the substance,
232
688758
3251
Odeio suas crenças e acho que ele está
errado na parte essencial,
11:44
but it's interesting to see someone
with a set of ideas
233
692033
2707
mas é interessante ver alguém
com um leque de ideias
11:46
find a vehicle, Donald Trump,
234
694764
1973
achar um veículo, o Donald Trump,
11:48
and then try to take control
of the White House
235
696761
3118
e depois tentar tomar
o controle da Casa Branca
11:51
in order to advance his viewpoint.
236
699903
2102
para promover seu ponto de vista.
11:54
CA: So it's almost become, like,
that the core question of our time now is:
237
702029
4826
CA: Parece que a pergunta
essencial da nossa era é:
11:58
Can you be patriotic
but also have a global mindset?
238
706879
5021
podemos ser patriotas, mas também
ter uma mentalidade global?
12:03
Are these two things
implacably opposed to each other?
239
711924
4271
Essas duas coisas são
intrinsecamente opostas?
12:08
I mean, a lot of conservatives
240
716219
3461
Muitos conservadores
12:11
and, to the extent
that it's a different category,
241
719704
2447
e, numa outra categoria,
muitos apoiadores do Trump,
12:14
a lot of Trump supporters,
242
722175
1281
12:15
are infuriated by the coastal elites
and the globalists
243
723480
3926
estão com muita raiva das elites liberais
da costa e os globalistas,
12:19
because they see them
as, sort of, not cheering for America,
244
727430
3986
pois é como se eles não
estivessem apoiando os EUA,
12:23
not embracing fully American values.
245
731440
2662
não estivessem abraçando
os valores norte-americanos.
12:26
I mean, have you seen that
in your conversations with people,
246
734126
3552
Dá para perceber isso nas suas
conversas com as pessoas,
na sua compreensão desta mentalidade?
12:29
in your understanding of their mindset?
247
737702
1904
12:31
GC: I do think that there's
a huge difference between --
248
739630
3201
GC: Realmente acho
que há uma grande diferença entre,
12:34
I hate to put people in categories, but,
249
742855
1982
e detesto categorizar as pessoas,
12:36
Middle America versus
people who live on the coasts.
250
744861
3961
o centro dos EUA e as pessoas
que vivem na costa.
12:40
It's an entirely different existence.
251
748846
2066
É uma existência completamente diferente.
12:42
And I grew up in Minnesota, so I have
an understanding of Middle America,
252
750936
3666
Eu cresci em Minnesota, então tenho
um entendimento do centro dos EUA,
12:46
and I've never forgotten it.
253
754626
1356
e nunca o esqueci.
12:48
And maybe that's why I have
an understanding of what happened here,
254
756006
3507
Talvez seja por isso que eu compreenda
o que aconteceu aqui,
12:51
because those people often feel
like nobody's listening to them,
255
759537
4824
pois aquelas pessoas sentem
que, muitas vezes, ninguém as escuta,
12:56
and that we're only concentrating
on California and New York.
256
764385
4488
e que o foco está apenas
na Califórnia e em Nova York.
13:00
And so I think that was a huge reason
why Trump was elected.
257
768897
4524
Acho que essa seja uma grande razão
do Trump ter sido eleito.
13:05
I mean, these people felt like
they were being heard.
258
773445
4088
Essas pessoas se sentiram ouvidas.
13:09
Whether or not patriotism falls into that,
259
777557
4150
Se o patriotismo se encaixa nisso ou não,
13:13
I'm not sure about that.
260
781731
1169
não tenho tanta certeza.
13:14
I do know one thing:
261
782924
1171
Sei de uma coisa:
13:16
a lot of things Trump talked about
last night are not conservative things.
262
784119
4055
muitas das coisas que o Trump falou
ontem à noite não são conservadoras.
Se a Hillary Clinton tivesse
lido aquele discurso,
13:20
Had Hillary Clinton gotten up
and given that speech,
263
788198
2477
nenhum republicano teria aplaudido.
13:22
not one Republican would have
stood up to applaud.
264
790699
2357
13:25
I mean, he's talking about spending
a trillion dollars on infrastructure.
265
793080
3627
Ele falou de gastar
US$ 1 trilhão em infraestrutura.
Essa não é uma visão conservadora.
13:28
That is not a conservative viewpoint.
266
796731
1838
13:30
He talked about government-mandated
maternity leave.
267
798593
2979
Ele falou sobre licença-maternidade
concedida pelo governo.
Muitas mulheres podem ter amado;
mas não é uma visão conservadora.
13:34
A lot of women may love that;
it's not a conservative viewpoint.
268
802312
3018
13:37
So it's fascinating
269
805354
1151
É fascinante ver as pessoas que amavam
sua mensagem durante a campanha...
13:38
that people who loved what his message
was during the campaign,
270
806529
3700
13:42
I'm not sure -- how do you
think they'll react to that?
271
810253
2602
como você acha que elas reagirão a isso?
DB: Tenho de falar que cresci
em Lower Manhattan,
13:44
DB: I should say I grew up
in Lower Manhattan,
272
812879
2186
13:47
in the triangle between ABC Carpets,
the Strand Bookstore
273
815089
2731
no meio do triângulo, entre a ABC Carpets,
a Strand Bookstore e o restaurante Odeon.
13:49
and The Odeon restaurant.
274
817844
1314
13:51
(Laughter)
275
819182
1631
(Risos)
13:52
GC: Come to Minnesota sometime!
276
820837
1854
GC: Venha a Minnesota um dia!
13:54
(Laughter)
277
822715
1233
(Risos)
13:55
CA: You are a card-carrying member
of the coastal elite, my man.
278
823972
5650
CA: Você realmente é um membro
da elite liberal da costa, cara.
Mas o que você achou do discurso de ontem?
14:01
But what did you make
of the speech last night?
279
829646
2252
Pareceu que, em geral, ele tomou
uma posição mais moderada.
14:03
It seemed to be a move
to a more moderate position,
280
831922
3447
14:07
on the face of it.
281
835393
1151
DB: Achei que foi seu melhor discurso,
e amenizou a bizarrice do Trump,
14:08
DB: Yeah, I thought it
was his best speech,
282
836568
2027
14:10
and it took away the freakishness of him.
283
838619
2038
14:12
I do think he's a moral freak,
284
840681
1856
Acho que ele seja uma aberração moral,
e que isso o arruinará,
14:14
and I think he'll be undone by that fact,
285
842561
2802
14:17
the fact that he just doesn't know
anything about anything
286
845387
2779
o fato de ele não saber nada
sobre nada e nem ter curiosidade.
14:20
and is uncurious about it.
287
848190
1253
14:21
(Laughter)
288
849467
1093
(Risos)
14:22
But if you take away these minor flaws,
289
850584
2165
Mas, se tirarmos esses pequenos defeitos,
14:24
I think we got to see him at his best,
290
852773
2072
acho que conseguimos ver o melhor dele,
14:26
and it was revealing for me
to see him at his best,
291
854869
3118
e foi revelador vê-lo dessa maneira,
14:30
because to me, it exposed a central
contradiction that he's got to confront,
292
858011
4517
pois isso revelou uma contradição
central que ele tem que enfrentar.
14:34
that a lot of what he's doing
is offering security.
293
862552
3004
Muito do que ele faz é oferecer segurança:
14:37
So, "I'm ordering closed borders,
294
865580
1798
"Vou mandar fechar as fronteiras.
14:39
I'm going to secure the world
for you, for my people."
295
867402
2863
Vou manter o mundo seguro
para vocês, para meu povo".
14:42
But then if you actually look
at a lot of his economic policies,
296
870289
3048
Mas, ao olharmos para muitas
de suas políticas econômicas,
como a reforma da saúde,
que é sobre planos de saúde privados,
14:45
like health care reform, which is about
private health care accounts,
297
873361
3781
14:49
that's not security, that's risk.
298
877166
2865
isso não é segurança, é risco.
14:52
Educational vouchers: that's risk.
Deregulation: that's risk.
299
880055
3696
Vales-educação: é risco.
Desregulamentação: é risco.
14:55
There's really a contradiction
between the security of the mindset
300
883775
3977
Há uma grande contradição
entre a mentalidade da segurança
e muitas das políticas,
que têm o risco como base.
14:59
and a lot of the policies,
which are very risk-oriented.
301
887776
2784
15:02
And what I would say, especially
having spent this year,
302
890584
3501
Eu diria que, especialmente
depois deste ano,
15:06
the people in rural Minnesota,
in New Mexico --
303
894109
3865
as pessoas na Minnesota rural,
do Novo México,
15:09
they've got enough risk in their lives.
304
897998
2065
elas já têm riscos suficientes na vida.
15:12
And so they're going to say,
"No thank you."
305
900087
3315
Eles dirão: "Muito obrigado, mas não".
Acho que a revogação da lei do sistema
de saúde fracassará por isso.
15:15
And I think his health care repeal
will fail for that reason.
306
903426
3768
15:19
CA: But despite the criticisms
you just made of him,
307
907218
2945
CA: Mas, apesar das críticas que você fez,
15:22
it does at least seem that he's listening
308
910187
4212
ao menos, parece que ele está ouvindo
15:26
to a surprisingly wide range of voices;
309
914423
2174
a uma surpreendente variedade de vozes;
15:28
it's not like everyone
is coming from the same place.
310
916621
2771
não é como se todas as vozes
viessem do mesmo lugar.
15:31
And maybe that leads to a certain
amount of chaos and confusion, but --
311
919416
5260
Talvez isso gere uma certa quantidade
de caos e confusão, mas...
15:36
GC: I actually don't think he's listening
to a wide range of voices.
312
924700
3222
GC: Eu não acho que ele está
ouvindo a uma variedade de vozes.
15:39
I think he's listening to very few people.
313
927946
2030
Acho que ele ouve poucas pessoas.
15:42
That's just my impression of it.
314
930000
1803
Essa é minha impressão.
15:43
I believe that some of the things
he said last night
315
931827
2455
Acho que muitas coisas que ele falou ontem
15:46
had Ivanka all over them.
316
934306
2023
tiveram grande influência da Ivanka.
15:48
So I believe he was listening
to her before that speech.
317
936353
3914
Creio que ele a escutou antes do discurso.
15:52
And he was Teleprompter Trump
last night, as opposed to Twitter Trump.
318
940291
4223
Ele foi um Trump de teleprompter ontem,
ao contrário do Trump do Twitter.
15:56
And that's why, before we came out here,
319
944538
2125
É por isso que, antes de virmos pra cá,
15:58
I said, "We better check Twitter
to see if anything's changed."
320
946687
4211
eu disse: "É melhor olharmos o Twitter
para ver se algo já mudou".
16:02
And also I think you have to keep in mind
321
950922
2189
Acho que é importante manter em mente
16:05
that because he's such a unique character,
322
953135
3183
que, por conta de sua personalidade única,
16:08
what was the bar that we
were expecting last night?
323
956342
2845
onde estavam nossas expectativas ontem?
16:11
Was it here or here or here?
324
959211
2856
Estava aqui embaixo ou aqui em cima?
16:14
And so he comes out
and gives a looking political speech,
325
962091
3762
Daí ele vem e faz um discurso
aparentemente político,
16:17
and everyone goes, "Wow! He can do it."
326
965877
3388
e todos pensam: "Nossa!
Ele consegue mesmo".
16:21
It just depends
on which direction he goes.
327
969289
2022
Depende muito da direção
que ele irá tomar.
16:23
DB: Yeah, and we're trying
to build bridges here,
328
971335
2365
DB: Sim, e estamos tentando nos unir.
Especialmente diante de um público
que despreza o Trump,
16:25
and especially for an audience
that may have contempt for Trump,
329
973724
3037
é importante dizer: "Isso é algo real".
16:28
it's important to say,
no, this is a real thing.
330
976785
2249
16:31
But as I try my best to go an hour
showing respect for him,
331
979058
3854
Mas, ao tentar, durante uma hora,
ter algum respeito por ele,
16:34
my thyroid is surging,
332
982936
1991
minha tiroide estava explodindo,
16:36
because I think the oddities
of his character
333
984951
3372
pois acho que as esquisitices dele
16:40
really are condemnatory
and are going to doom him.
334
988347
2481
realmente são odiáveis e irão condená-lo.
16:42
CA: Your reputation is as a conservative.
335
990852
5458
CA: Você tem reputação de conservador.
16:48
People would you describe you
as right of center,
336
996334
2374
As pessoas te descreveriam
como de centro-direita
16:50
and yet here you are
with this visceral reaction against him
337
998732
4233
e, mesmo assim,
você reage visceralmente a ele
16:54
and some of what he stands for.
338
1002989
1626
e o que ele defende.
16:56
I mean, I'm -- how do you have
a conversation?
339
1004639
3627
Como podemos ter uma conversa?
17:00
The people who support him,
on evidence so far,
340
1008290
2929
As pessoas que o apoiam,
até agora, pelas evidências,
17:03
are probably pretty excited.
341
1011243
2192
estão bem animadas.
17:05
He's certainly shown real engagement
342
1013459
5158
Ele realmente mostrou um empenho
em muito do que ele prometeu,
17:10
in a lot of what he promised to do,
343
1018641
2116
17:12
and there is a strong desire
to change the system radically.
344
1020781
4101
e há um forte desejo
de mudar radicalmente o sistema.
17:16
People hate what government has become
and how it's left them out.
345
1024906
4130
As pessoas detestam o que o governo
se tornou e como elas foram excluídas.
17:21
GC: I totally agree with that,
346
1029060
1782
GC: Concordo muito com isso,
17:22
but I think that when he was proposing
a huge government program last night
347
1030866
3667
mas creio que, ao vê-lo propor um grande
programa de governo ontem,
17:26
that we used to call the bad s-word,
"stimulus," I find it completely ironic.
348
1034557
4068
falando de um estímulo que xingávamos,
acho tudo muito irônico.
17:30
To spend a trillion dollars
on something --
349
1038649
2008
Gastar trilhões de dólares em alguma coisa
não é uma visão conservadora.
17:32
that is not a conservative viewpoint.
350
1040681
1775
Mas, não acho que ele
seja mesmo um republicano.
17:34
Then again, I don't really believe
he's a Republican.
351
1042480
2486
17:36
DB: And I would say, as someone
who identifies as conservative:
352
1044990
3021
DB: E eu diria, como alguém que acredita
ser conservador, primeiro de tudo:
17:40
first of all,
353
1048035
1163
ser um conservador é acreditar
nas limitações da política.
17:41
to be conservative is to believe
in the limitations of politics.
354
1049222
3038
Samuel Johnson disse: "De todas as coisas
que o coração humano tolera,
17:44
Samuel Johnson said, "Of all the things
that human hearts endure,
355
1052284
3118
como são poucas as coisas
que reis podem causar e curar".
17:47
how few are those that kings
can cause and cure."
356
1055426
2447
17:49
Politics is a limited realm;
357
1057897
1645
A política é um reino limitado;
17:51
what matters most
is the moral nature of the society.
358
1059566
3037
o que mais importa
é a natureza moral da sociedade.
17:54
And so I have to think
character comes first,
359
1062627
2169
Acho que o caráter vem primeiro,
17:56
and a man who doesn't pass
the character threshold
360
1064820
2373
e uma pessoa que não passa
desse limiar do caráter
17:59
cannot be a good president.
361
1067217
1340
não será um bom presidente.
18:00
Second, I'm the kind
of conservative who --
362
1068581
2665
Segundo: sou do tipo de conservador,
18:03
I harken back to Alexander Hamilton,
363
1071270
2687
recorro aqui a Alexander Hamilton,
um artista latino urbano de hip hop...
18:05
who was a Latino hip-hop star
from the heights --
364
1073981
2330
18:08
(Laughter)
365
1076335
4075
(Risos) (Aplausos)
18:12
but his definition of America
was very future-oriented.
366
1080434
5371
cuja definição de América
tem muita base no futuro.
18:17
He was a poor boy from the islands
367
1085829
2356
Ele era um menino pobre das Caraíbas,
18:20
who had this rapid and amazing
rise to success,
368
1088209
4313
que teve uma rápida e incrível
ascensão ao sucesso,
e queria que o governo desse aos meninos
e meninas pobres como ele
18:24
and he wanted government to give
poor boys and girls like him
369
1092546
2953
uma chance de ter sucesso,
18:27
a chance to succeed,
370
1095523
1154
usando um governo limitado, mas
energético, que criasse mobilidade social.
18:28
using limited but energetic government
to create social mobility.
371
1096701
3221
18:31
For him and for Lincoln
and for Teddy Roosevelt,
372
1099946
3584
Para ele, para Lincoln
e para Teddy Roosevelt,
18:35
the idea of America
was the idea of the future.
373
1103554
2335
a ideia da América do Norte
era a ideia do futuro.
18:37
We may have division and racism
and slavery in our past,
374
1105913
2891
Podemos ter divisão, racismo
e escravidão no nosso passado,
18:40
but we have a common future.
375
1108828
1892
mas temos um futuro em comum.
18:42
The definition of America that Steve
Bannon stands for is backwards-looking.
376
1110744
4198
A definição de América
do Steve Bannon é um retrocesso.
18:46
It's nostalgic; it's for the past.
377
1114966
1947
É nostálgico; é sobre o passado.
18:48
And that is not traditionally
the American identity.
378
1116937
2480
E essa não é tradicionalmente
a identidade americana.
18:51
That's traditionally, frankly,
the Russian identity.
379
1119441
2460
É a identidade tradicional russa,
como eles definem virtude.
18:53
That's how they define virtue.
380
1121925
1482
Acho que é uma traição
fundamental e fundacional
18:55
And so I think it is a fundamental
and foundational betrayal
381
1123431
2853
18:58
of what conservatism used to stand for.
382
1126308
1929
do que o conservadorismo era.
19:00
CA: Well, I'd like actually
like to hear from you,
383
1128261
2348
CA: Agora queria escutar vocês,
19:02
and if we see some comments coming in
from some of you, we'll --
384
1130633
3022
queremos alguns comentários
de vocês, nós vamos...
19:05
oh, well here's one right now.
385
1133679
1472
ah, aqui está um.
Jeffrey Alan Carnegie: Tentei convencer
amigos progressistas
19:07
Jeffrey Alan Carnegie: I've tried
to convince progressive friends
386
1135175
3140
que eles precisam entender
o que motiva os apoiadores de Trump,
19:10
that they need to understand
what motivates Trump supporters,
387
1138339
2892
19:13
yet many of them have given up
trying to understand
388
1141255
2417
mas muitos deles desistiram
de tentar entender,
em face do que creem ser
mentiras, egoísmo e ódio.
19:15
in the face of what they perceive
as lies, selfishness and hatred.
389
1143696
3144
Como nos comunicar com pessoas
do Tea Party e da esquerda,
19:18
How would you reach out to such people,
the Tea Party of the left,
390
1146864
3185
para tentar superar as diferenças?
19:22
to try to bridge this divide?
391
1150073
1813
19:25
GC: I actually think
there are commonalities in anger,
392
1153078
3078
GC: Creio que há pontos comuns
no ódio, como falei antes.
19:28
as I expressed earlier.
393
1156180
1438
Creio que se pode conversar,
ambos sendo passionais sobre algo.
19:29
So I think you can come to the table,
both being passionate about something.
394
1157642
4430
19:34
So at least you care.
395
1162096
1530
Ao menos, ambos se importam.
19:36
And I would like to believe --
the c-word has also become
396
1164435
3707
Outra palavra que se tornou
horrível é "consenso", certo?
19:40
a horrible word -- "compromise," right?
397
1168166
2576
A extrema esquerda, a extrema direita,
e consenso... esquece.
19:42
So you have the far left
and the far right,
398
1170766
2071
19:44
and compromise -- forget it.
399
1172861
1383
19:46
Those groups don't want
to even think about it.
400
1174268
2281
Esses grupos não querem nem pensar nisso.
19:48
But you have a huge swath
of voters, myself included,
401
1176573
3090
Há eleitores, incluindo eu,
que são registrados como independentes,
19:51
who are registered independents,
402
1179687
1728
19:53
like 40 percent of us, right?
403
1181439
1968
cerca de 40% de nós, não é?
19:55
So there is a huge faction of America
that wants to see change
404
1183431
4301
Há uma grande porção dos EUA
que quer ver mudanças
19:59
and wants to see people come together.
405
1187756
2634
e as pessoas se unindo.
20:02
It's just that we have to figure out
406
1190414
1766
Só temos que arranjar um jeito de fazê-lo.
20:04
how to do that.
407
1192204
1411
CA: Vamos falar um pouco sobre isso,
20:05
CA: So let's talk about that for a minute,
408
1193639
2118
20:07
because we're having these TED Dialogues,
we're trying to bridge.
409
1195781
3220
pois estamos num Diálogos TED
e tentando nos unir.
20:11
There's a lot of people out there,
right now, perhaps especially on the left,
410
1199025
3676
Talvez hoje tenha muita gente,
especialmente na esquerda,
20:14
who think this is a terrible idea,
411
1202725
1791
que acha essa ideia ruim,
20:16
that actually, the only moral response
to the great tyranny
412
1204540
5939
e que a única reação moral
à grande tirania
20:22
that may be about to emerge in America
413
1210503
4011
que talvez esteja
a ponto de surgir nos EUA
20:26
is to resist it at every stage,
is to fight it tooth and nail,
414
1214538
3632
seja resistir em todos os níveis,
é lutar com unhas e dentes,
20:30
it's a mistake to try and do this.
415
1218194
1881
e que é um erro tentar dialogar.
20:32
Just fight!
416
1220099
1182
Mas lutar!
20:34
Is there a case for that?
417
1222001
2345
Isso é verdade?
20:36
DB: It depends what "fight" means.
If it means literal fighting, then no.
418
1224370
3580
DB: Depende do que seja "lutar".
Se quer dizer lutar literalmente, não.
Talvez, fazer manifestações
de conscientização... isso é bom.
20:39
If it means marching, well maybe
marching to raise consciousness,
419
1227974
3124
20:43
that seems fine.
420
1231122
1265
Mas, se quisermos mudanças neste país,
será através de partidos e políticas.
20:44
But if you want change in this country,
we do it through parties and politics.
421
1232411
4131
20:48
We organize parties, and those parties
are big, diverse, messy coalitions,
422
1236566
4777
Organizamos partidos, que formam
alianças grandes, diversas e confusas
20:53
and we engage in politics,
423
1241367
1618
e nós nos engajamos na política,
20:55
and politics is always
morally unsatisfying
424
1243009
2328
e a política é sempre
moralmente insatisfatória
20:57
because it's always
a bunch of compromises.
425
1245361
2477
pelo tanto de acordos.
20:59
But politics is essentially
a competition between partial truths.
426
1247862
3782
Mas política é essencialmente
uma competição entre verdades parciais.
21:03
The Trump people have a piece
of the truth in America.
427
1251668
2635
O pessoal do Trump tem
um pedaço da verdade do país.
21:06
I think Trump himself is the wrong answer
to the right question,
428
1254327
3113
Acho que o Trump é a resposta errada
para a pergunta certa,
21:09
but they have some truth,
429
1257464
2011
mas há alguma verdade,
21:11
and it's truth found in the epidemic
of opiates around the country,
430
1259499
4149
a verdade encontrada na epidemia
de opioides no país,
21:15
it's truth found in
the spread of loneliness,
431
1263672
2992
no alastramento da solidão,
nas pessoas cujas vidas foram invertidas.
21:18
it's the truth found in people
whose lives are inverted.
432
1266688
2959
21:21
They peaked professionally at age 30,
433
1269671
2422
Tiveram seu auge profissional
aos 30 anos, e então declinaram.
21:24
and it's all been downhill since.
434
1272117
2025
Ao entender que lutar não é necessário,
21:26
And so, understanding that
doesn't take fighting,
435
1274166
2514
21:28
it takes conversation and then asking,
436
1276704
1951
mas sim dialogar e depois questionar:
"Pelo que vamos substituir o Trump?"
21:30
"What are we going to replace Trump with?"
437
1278679
2010
GC: Mas vimos lutas ontem,
até durante o discurso,
21:32
GC: But you saw fighting last night,
even at the speech,
438
1280713
2667
pois mulheres democratas
vieram usando branco
21:35
because you saw the Democratic women
who came and wore white
439
1283404
2868
para homenagear o movimento sufragista.
21:38
to honor the suffragette movement.
440
1286296
1708
21:40
I remember back during the campaign
441
1288028
2027
Lembro-me durante a campanha
21:42
where some Trump supporters wanted
to actually get rid of the amendment
442
1290079
3489
quando alguns apoiadores de Trump
queriam se livrar da emenda
que permitia que as mulheres votassem.
21:45
that allowed us to vote as women.
443
1293592
1714
21:47
It was like, what?
444
1295330
2168
Como assim?
21:49
So I don't know if
that's the right way to fight.
445
1297522
2326
Não sei se este é o melhor jeito de lutar.
21:51
It was interesting,
because I was looking in the audience,
446
1299872
2808
Foi interessante, eu procurei na audiência
mulheres democratas que não usavam branco.
21:54
trying to see Democratic women
who didn't wear white.
447
1302704
2555
21:57
So there's a lot going on there,
448
1305283
1550
Muito acontece ali,
21:58
and there's a lot of ways to fight
that are not necessarily doing that.
449
1306857
6635
e há muitas formas de lutar
que não exijam necessariamente isso.
22:05
CA: I mean, one of the key
questions, to me, is:
450
1313516
2474
CA: Uma das perguntas-chave é:
22:08
The people who voted for Trump
but, if you like, are more in the center,
451
1316014
5649
as pessoas que votaram no Trump,
mas que pertencem mais ao centro,
22:13
like they're possibly
amenable to persuasion --
452
1321687
3582
possivelmente suscetíveis a persuasão,
22:17
are they more likely to be persuaded
by seeing a passionate uprising
453
1325293
5791
têm mais chance de serem persuadidas
por uma revolta impetuosa
22:23
of people saying, "No, no, no, you can't!"
454
1331108
3513
de pessoas que afirmam:
"Não, não, não pode!"
22:26
or will that actually piss them off
and push them away?
455
1334645
3914
ou isso só irá irritá-las
e fazê-las se distanciarem?
22:30
DB: How are any of us persuaded?
456
1338583
1648
DB: Como que alguém é persuadido?
22:32
Am I going to persuade you by saying,
"Well, you're kind of a bigot,
457
1340255
3327
Vou te persuadir ao afirmar:
"Bem, você é meio que intolerante,
22:35
you're supporting bigotry,
you're supporting sexism.
458
1343606
2941
você apoia intolerância,
você apoia o sexismo.
22:38
You're a primitive, fascistic rise
from some authoritarian past"?
459
1346571
4628
Você é um fascista primitivo em ascensão
de algum passado autoritário"?
22:43
That's probably not going to be
too persuasive to you.
460
1351223
2685
Isso, provavelmente,
não será muito persuasivo.
22:45
And so the way any of us
are persuaded is by:
461
1353932
2641
O jeito que muitos de nós
somos persuadidos
22:48
a) some basic show of respect
for the point of view, and saying,
462
1356597
4342
é simplesmente mostrando respeito
por um ponto de vista e dizer:
22:52
"I think this guy is not going
to get you where you need to go."
463
1360963
3319
"Acho que esse cara não irá
te levar para onde você precisa ir".
22:56
And there are two phrases
you've heard over and over again,
464
1364306
3380
São duas frases que vocês
já escutaram várias vezes,
22:59
wherever you go in the country.
465
1367710
1493
seja lá aonde você for no país.
Primeiro, "estados subestimados".
23:01
One, the phrase "flyover country."
466
1369227
1891
23:03
And that's been heard for years,
467
1371142
1848
Já escutamos isso há anos,
23:05
but I would say this year,
I heard it almost on an hourly basis,
468
1373014
3696
mas diria que, esse ano,
eu a ouvi a cada hora,
23:08
a sense of feeling invisible.
469
1376734
1511
uma sensação de ser invisível.
23:10
And then the sense a sense of the phrase
"political correctness."
470
1378269
3758
E também o sentido
da frase "politicamente correto".
23:14
Just that rebellion: "They're not even
letting us say what we think."
471
1382051
4079
A rebeldia: "Eles nem nos deixam
falar o que pensamos".
23:18
And I teach at Yale.
472
1386154
1325
Eu dou aula em Yale
e o estreitamento do debate é real.
23:19
The narrowing of debate is real.
473
1387503
4269
23:24
CA: So you would say this is a trap
that liberals have fallen into
474
1392449
3204
CA: Você diria que esta é uma armadilha
em que os liberais caíram
23:27
by celebrating causes
they really believe in,
475
1395677
3096
ao celebrar as causas
em que eles realmente acreditam,
23:30
often expressed through the language
of "political correctness."
476
1398797
3962
muitas vezes expressadas através
da linguagem do "politicamente correto"?
23:34
They have done damage.
They have pushed people away.
477
1402783
4335
Eles causaram danos,
eles afastaram as pessoas?
23:39
DB: I would say
a lot of the argument, though,
478
1407142
2148
DB: Diria que muito do argumento
23:41
with "descent to fascism,"
"authoritarianism" --
479
1409314
2361
da "inclinação ao fascismo",
do "autoritarismo"
23:43
that just feels over-the-top to people.
480
1411699
2189
parece muito exagerado para as pessoas.
Mas, vejam, eu já escrevi oito milhões
de colunas antiTrump,
23:45
And listen, I've written
eight million anti-Trump columns,
481
1413912
2783
23:48
but it is a problem, especially
for the coastal media,
482
1416719
2670
mas é um problema,
especialmente para a mídia liberal,
23:51
that every time he does something
slightly wrong, we go to 11,
483
1419413
4173
quando todas as vezes que ele faz algo
levemente errado, passamos da conta,
23:55
and we're at 11 every day.
484
1423610
2186
e fazemos isso todo dia.
23:57
And it just strains
credibility at some point.
485
1425820
2840
Isso acaba desgastando a credibilidade.
24:00
CA: Crying wolf a little too loud
and a little too early.
486
1428684
2726
CA: É um alarme falso precoce e exagerado.
24:03
But there may be a time
when we really do have to cry wolf.
487
1431434
2867
Mas uma hora vamos
ter de nos alarmar de verdade.
24:06
GC: But see -- one of the most
important things to me
488
1434325
2572
GC: Mas uma das coisas
mais importantes para mim
24:08
is how the conservative media
handles Trump.
489
1436921
2621
é como a mídia conservadora
lida com o Trump.
24:12
Will they call him out
when things are not true,
490
1440439
4573
Eles vão questioná-lo
quando ele fala mentiras,
24:17
or will they just go along with it?
491
1445036
2183
ou eles vão simplesmente deixar passar?
24:19
To me, that is what is essential
in this entire discussion,
492
1447243
4029
Para mim, essa é a essência
de toda esta discussão,
24:23
because when you have
followers of somebody
493
1451296
4584
pois, quando o apoiador de alguém
24:27
who don't really care
if he tells the truth or not,
494
1455904
3632
realmente não se importa
se ele diz a verdade,
24:31
that can be very dangerous.
495
1459560
2285
isso pode ser muito perigoso.
24:33
So to me, it's: How is the conservative
media going to respond to it?
496
1461869
4286
Como a mídia conservadora
irá reagir a isso?
24:38
I mean, you've been calling them out.
497
1466179
2494
Você a está questionando.
24:40
But how will other forms
of conservative media deal with that
498
1468697
4385
Mas como irão as outras formas
de mídia conservadora lidar com isso
24:45
as we move forward?
499
1473106
1158
daqui para a frente?
24:46
DB: It's all shifted, though.
500
1474288
1396
DB: Mas está tudo trocado.
24:47
The conservative media used to be Fox
or Charles Krauthammer or George Will.
501
1475708
3638
A mídia conservadora era a Fox
ou o Charles Krauthammer e o George Will.
24:51
They're no longer the conservative media.
502
1479370
2004
Eles não são mais a mídia conservadora.
Hoje há todo um novo conjunto
de instituições da extrema direita,
24:53
Now there's another whole set
of institutions further right,
503
1481398
2831
24:56
which is Breitbart and Infowars,
Alex Jones, Laura Ingraham,
504
1484253
5597
que é a Breitbart, a Infrowars,
Alex Jones, Laura Ingraham,
25:01
and so they're the ones who are now
his base, not even so much Fox.
505
1489874
3801
eles são a base dele agora,
não tanto mais a Fox.
25:05
CA: My last question for the time being
is just on this question of the truth.
506
1493699
4087
CA: Minha última pergunta por enquanto
é sobre esse questionamento da verdade.
25:09
I mean, it's one of the scariest
things to people right now,
507
1497810
2879
Essa é uma das coisas mais assustadoras
para as pessoas hoje,
25:12
that there is no agreement,
nationally, on what is true.
508
1500713
3683
não há mais uma concordância
sobre o que é a verdade.
25:16
I've never seen anything like it,
509
1504420
1790
Nunca vi algo assim,
25:18
where facts are so massively disputed.
510
1506234
3337
em que os fatos são tão
intensamente contestados.
25:21
Your whole newspaper, sir,
is delivering fake news every day.
511
1509595
3551
Todo o seu jornal, meu senhor, escreve
notícias falsas todos os dias.
25:25
DB: And failing.
512
1513170
1508
DB: E falhando.
25:26
(Laughter)
513
1514702
1088
(Risos)
25:27
CA: And failing. My commiserations.
514
1515814
1956
CA: E falhando. Meus sentimentos.
25:29
But is there any path
515
1517794
6290
Mas será que há um caminho
25:36
whereby we can start to get
some kind of consensus,
516
1524108
3810
onde podemos ter algum tipo de consenso,
25:39
to believe the same things?
517
1527942
2860
e acreditar nas mesmas coisas?
25:42
Can online communities play a role here?
518
1530826
3568
Será que as comunidades
on-line têm um papel aqui?
Como consertar isso?
25:46
How do we fix this?
519
1534418
1169
GC: Eu entendo como isso ocorreu.
25:47
GC: See, I understand how that happened.
520
1535611
2038
25:49
That's another groundswell kind of emotion
521
1537673
2199
Havia um outro tipo de emoção generalizada
25:51
that was going on in the middle of America
522
1539896
2015
que ocorria no meio da América do Norte,
25:53
and not being heard,
523
1541935
1233
que não era escutada, e de achar
que a mídia dominante é parcial.
25:55
in thinking that the mainstream
media was biased.
524
1543192
3031
25:58
There's a difference, though,
between being biased and being fake.
525
1546247
4066
Mas há uma diferença
entre ser parcial e ser falso.
26:02
To me, that is a very important
distinction in this conversation.
526
1550337
3573
Para mim, essa é uma distinção
importante nesta discussão.
26:05
So let's just say that there was some bias
in the mainstream media.
527
1553934
4498
Vamos dizer que haja mesmo
parcialidade na mídia dominante.
26:10
OK. So there are ways
to try and mend that.
528
1558456
2933
Tudo bem. Há maneiras de consertar isso.
26:13
But what Trump's doing
is nuclearizing that and saying,
529
1561413
4075
O que o Trump está fazendo
é bombardear isso e afirmar:
26:17
"Look, we're just going to call
all of that fake."
530
1565512
2538
"Vamos simplesmente chamar
isso de notícias falsas".
26:20
That's where it gets dangerous.
531
1568074
1546
É aí que fica perigoso.
26:21
CA: Do you think enough of his supporters
532
1569644
2861
CA: Você acha que muitos
de seus apoiadores
26:24
have a greater loyalty
to the truth than to any ...
533
1572529
4245
têm uma lealdade maior com a verdade
do que com qualquer...
26:28
Like, the principle
of not supporting something
534
1576798
4639
por exemplo, o princípio
de não apoiar nada
26:33
that is demonstrably not true
535
1581461
1998
que não se possa provar ser verdade
26:35
actually matters, so there will be
a correction at some point?
536
1583483
2961
é importante, então haverá
uma correção em algum momento?
26:38
DB: I think the truth
eventually comes out.
537
1586468
2290
DB: Acho que a verdade acaba saindo.
26:40
So for example, Donald Trump
has based a lot of his economic policy
538
1588782
3156
Por exemplo, Donald Trump baseou
muito de sua política econômica
26:43
on this supposition that Americans
have lost manufacturing jobs
539
1591962
3004
na suposição de que americanos
perderam os empregos nas fábricas
26:46
because they've been stolen
by the Chinese.
540
1594990
2042
pois eles foram roubados pelos chineses.
26:49
That is maybe 13 percent
of the jobs that left.
541
1597056
2926
Que tenham restado
talvez 13% dos empregos.
26:52
The truth is that 87 percent of the jobs
were replaced by technology.
542
1600006
3582
A verdade é que 87% dos empregos
foram tomados pela tecnologia.
26:55
That is just the truth.
543
1603612
1778
Isso é simplesmente a verdade.
26:57
And so as a result, when he says,
544
1605414
2662
Como consequência, quando ele diz:
27:00
"I'm going to close TPP
and all the jobs will come roaring back,"
545
1608100
3967
"Eu vou acabar com o acordo TPP,
e os empregos vão voltar voando",
27:04
they will not come roaring back.
546
1612091
1561
eles não irão voltar voando.
27:05
So that is an actual fact, in my belief.
547
1613676
3084
Esse é um fato real, na minha crença.
27:08
And --
548
1616784
1158
E...
27:09
(Laughter)
549
1617966
1299
(Risos)
27:11
GC: But I'm saying what
his supporters think is the truth,
550
1619289
2716
GC: Seus apoiadores acham que é verdade,
27:14
no matter how many times
you might say that,
551
1622029
2135
não importa quantas vezes você diga isso,
eles ainda acreditam nele.
27:16
they still believe him.
552
1624188
1206
27:17
DB: But eventually either jobs
will come back or they will not come back,
553
1625418
3759
DB: Mas, eventualmente,
os empregos retornarão ou não
27:21
and at that point, either something
will work or it doesn't work,
554
1629201
3095
e, nessa altura, uma coisa
funcionará ou não,
27:24
and it doesn't work or not work
because of great marketing,
555
1632320
2795
e não devido a um marketing bom,
27:27
it works because it actually
addresses a real problem
556
1635139
2545
mas funcionará por ser tratado
como um problema real,
27:29
and so I happen to think
the truth will out.
557
1637708
2486
e, assim, acho que a verdade vai aparecer.
27:32
CA: If you've got a question,
please raise your hand here.
558
1640218
3943
CA: Se alguém quiser perguntar,
por favor, levante a mão.
27:36
Yael Eisenstat: I'll speak into the box.
559
1644185
2620
Yael Eisenstat: Vou falar na caixa.
27:38
My name's Yael Eisenstat.
560
1646829
2994
Meu nome é Yael Eisenstat.
Escuto muito que todos precisamos começar
a conversar mais uns com os outros
27:41
I hear a lot of this talk
561
1649847
1611
27:43
about how we all need to start
talking to each other more
562
1651482
2679
27:46
and understanding each other more,
563
1654185
1676
e entendermos mais o próximo,
27:47
and I've even written about this,
published on this subject as well,
564
1655885
3540
e até já publiquei e escrevi sobre isso,
27:51
but now today I keep hearing liberals --
yes, I live in New York,
565
1659449
5110
mas hoje costumo ouvir os liberais
e, sim, eu moro em Nova Iorque,
27:56
I can be considered a liberal --
566
1664583
1723
posso ser considerada uma liberal,
27:58
we sit here and self-analyze:
567
1666330
1699
estamos sentados aqui analisando:
28:00
What did we do to not understand
the Rust Belt?
568
1668053
2309
por que não entendemos
o Cinturão da Ferrugem?
Ou o que podemos fazer para entender
melhor o interior dos EUA?
28:02
Or: What can we do to understand
Middle America better?
569
1670386
2850
28:05
And what I'd like to know:
570
1673260
1448
O que gostaria de saber é:
28:06
Have you seen any attempts
or conversations from Middle America
571
1674732
3926
vocês já viram alguma tentativa
de diálogo vindo do centro dos EUA
do que se pode fazer para entender
melhor a chamada "elite liberal"?
28:10
of what can I do to understand
the so-called coastal elites better?
572
1678682
3217
28:13
Because I'm just offended
as being put in a box as a coastal elite
573
1681923
4003
Pois fico ofendida ao ser categorizada
como uma "elite liberal",
assim como alguém do centro fica ao ser
visto como estado subestimado e ignorado.
28:17
as someone in Middle America is
as being considered a flyover state
574
1685950
3224
28:21
and not listened to.
575
1689198
1477
28:22
CA: There you go, I can hear Facebook
cheering as you --
576
1690699
2743
CA: Aí está, dá até pra escutar
o Facebook comemorando...
28:25
(Laughter)
577
1693466
1100
(Risos)
28:26
DB: I would say -- and this is someone
who has been conservative
578
1694590
3550
DB: Eu diria que, e isso de alguém
que é conservador por toda a vida adulta,
28:30
all my adult life --
579
1698164
1166
28:31
when you grow up conservative,
580
1699354
1767
quando você cresce conservador,
28:33
you learn to speak both languages.
581
1701145
1955
você aprende a falar as duas línguas.
28:35
Because if I'm going to listen to music,
582
1703806
2404
Pois, se eu vou escutar música,
28:38
I'm not going to listen to Ted Nugent.
583
1706234
2118
não vou escutar o Ted Nugent.
28:40
So a lot of my favorite rock bands
are all on the left.
584
1708376
4681
Muitas de minhas bandas preferidas
estão na esquerda.
28:45
If I'm going to go to a school,
585
1713081
1538
Se eu vou entrar pra faculdade,
28:46
I'm going probably to school
where the culture is liberal.
586
1714643
2753
provavelmente vou
para uma de cultura liberal.
28:49
If I'm going to watch a sitcom
587
1717420
1607
Se vou assistir a uma "sitcom"
ou a um programa de comédia
de entrevista, serão liberais.
28:51
or a late-night comedy show,
it's going to be liberal.
588
1719051
2563
28:53
If I'm going to read a good newspaper,
it'll be the New York Times.
589
1721638
3183
Se vou ler um bom jornal,
ele será o "New York Times".
Ou seja, você aprende
a falar ambas as línguas.
28:56
As a result, you learn
to speak both languages.
590
1724845
2266
28:59
And that actually, at least
for a number of years,
591
1727135
2884
Isso nos fez, pelo menos por vários anos,
29:02
when I started at National Review
with William F. Buckley,
592
1730043
2818
quando comecei na "National Review"
com o William F. Buckley,
29:04
it made us sharper,
593
1732885
1480
mais perspicazes,
29:06
because we were used to arguing
against people every day.
594
1734389
3627
pois estávamos acostumados a discutir
com pessoas todos os dias.
29:10
The problem now that's happened
is you have ghettoization on the right
595
1738040
3309
O problema agora é que colocamos
a direita num gueto,
29:13
and you can live entirely in rightworld,
596
1741373
2361
e pode-se viver completamente
no mundo da direita,
29:15
so as a result, the quality of argument
on the right has diminished,
597
1743758
3471
a partir daí, a qualidade
dos argumentos reduziu,
29:19
because you're not in the other side
598
1747253
2543
pois você não está
no outro lado o tempo todo.
29:21
all the time.
599
1749820
1253
29:23
But I do think if you're living
in Minnesota or Iowa or Arizona,
600
1751097
4952
Mas realmente acho que, se você vive
em Minnesota, Iowa, ou Arizona,
29:28
the coastal elites
make themselves aware to you,
601
1756073
2335
as elites liberais chamam sua atenção,
por isso conhecemos sua linguagem,
29:30
so you know that language as well,
602
1758432
1686
mas não funciona ao contrário.
29:32
but it's not the reverse.
603
1760142
1428
29:33
CA: But what does Middle America
not get about coastal elites?
604
1761594
4231
CA: Mas o que é que o centro dos EUA
não entende sobre essas elites?
29:37
So the critique is,
605
1765849
3040
A crítica é...
29:40
you are not dealing
with the real problems.
606
1768913
2762
que eles não lidam
com os verdadeiros problemas.
29:43
There's a feeling of a snobbishness,
an elitism that is very off-putting.
607
1771699
6461
Existe um sentimento de esnobismo
e elitismo que é desgastante.
O que eles estão ignorando?
29:50
What are they missing?
608
1778184
1168
29:51
If you could plant one piece of truth
609
1779376
3503
Se você pudesse plantar uma verdade
29:54
from the mindset of someone
in this room, for example,
610
1782903
5190
da mentalidade de alguém
desta sala, por exemplo,
30:00
what would you say to them?
611
1788117
2728
o que você diria a eles?
30:02
DB: Just how insanely wonderful we are.
612
1790869
1915
DB: Só diria que somos todos incríveis.
30:04
(Laughter)
613
1792808
1603
(Risos)
30:06
No, I reject the category.
614
1794435
2350
Não, eu rejeito esta categoria.
30:08
The problem with populism
is the same problem with elitism.
615
1796809
3484
O problema com o populismo
é o mesmo que com o elitismo.
30:12
It's just a prejudice on the basis
616
1800317
2298
É apenas um preconceito baseado
30:14
of probably an over-generalized
social class distinction
617
1802639
2950
em, provavelmente, uma distinção
generalizada de classe social,
30:17
which is too simplistic
to apply in reality.
618
1805613
3055
que é muito simplista para ser
aplicada à realidade.
30:20
Those of us in New York know
there are some people in New York
619
1808692
2942
Aqueles que vivem em Nova Iorque
sabem que lá há pessoas
30:23
who are completely awesome,
and some people who are pathetic,
620
1811658
2927
que são incríveis
e outras que são patéticas.
30:26
and if you live in Iowa, some people
are awesome and some people are pathetic.
621
1814609
3734
Se você vive em Iowa, há pessoas que são
incríveis e outras que são patéticas.
30:30
It's not a question
of what degree you have
622
1818367
2068
Não é uma questão de escolaridade
30:32
or where you happen to live
in the country.
623
1820459
2048
ou de onde você vive no país.
30:34
The distinction is just a crude
simplification to arouse political power.
624
1822531
3474
A distinção é só uma simplificação rude
para estimular o poder político.
GC: Eu encorajaria as pessoas a assistirem
a um noticiário na televisão
30:38
GC: But I would encourage people
to watch a television news show
625
1826029
4585
30:42
or read a column
that they normally wouldn't.
626
1830638
2669
ou lerem uma coluna de um jornal
que normalmente não leriam.
30:46
So if you are a Trump supporter,
watch the other side for a day,
627
1834221
5026
Se você apoia o Trump, vá assistir
ao outro lado algum dia,
30:51
because you need to come out of the bubble
628
1839271
2021
pois você precisa sair da bolha
30:53
if you're ever going
to have a conversation.
629
1841316
2102
se você quiser conversar.
30:55
And both sides -- so if you're a liberal,
630
1843442
2614
Isso serve para ambos os lados:
se você for um liberal
30:58
then watch something
that's very conservative.
631
1846080
2831
vá assistir a algo conservador.
31:00
Read a column that is not something
you would normally read,
632
1848935
3648
Vá ler uma coluna
que normalmente você não leria,
31:04
because then you gain perspective
of what the other side is thinking,
633
1852607
3290
pois, assim, você terá uma ideia
do que o outro lado está pensando,
31:07
and to me, that's a start
of coming together.
634
1855921
2460
e, para mim, esse é um começo
para nos unirmos.
31:10
I worry about the same thing
you worry about, these bubbles.
635
1858405
2841
Me preocupo com essas bolhas,
assim como você.
31:13
I think if you only watch
certain entities,
636
1861270
2020
Acho que se você
só assiste a uma entidade,
31:15
you have no idea what the rest
of the world is talking about.
637
1863314
2931
você não tem ideia do que o resto
do mundo está dizendo.
31:18
DB: I think not only watching,
638
1866269
2509
DB: Acho que não só assistir,
31:20
being part of an organization
that meets at least once a month
639
1868802
3014
fazer parte de uma organização
que se encontra todo mês
e que coloca você em contato direto
com pessoas muito diferentes
31:23
that puts you in direct contact
with people completely unlike yourself
640
1871840
3330
31:27
is something we all have
a responsibility for.
641
1875194
2151
é algo que todos nós deveríamos fazer.
31:29
I may get this a little wrong,
642
1877369
1467
Posso estar errado,
31:30
but I think of the top-selling
automotive models in this country,
643
1878860
3245
mas acho que o modelo automotivo
mais vendido neste país,
31:34
I think the top three or four
are all pickup trucks.
644
1882129
3322
os três ou quatro mais vendidos,
são caminhonetes.
31:37
So ask yourself: How many people
do I know who own a pickup truck?
645
1885475
3812
Então, pense: quantas pessoas
eu conheço que tem uma caminhonete?
31:41
And it could be very few or zero
for a lot of people.
646
1889311
3429
Pode ser uma quantidade pequena
ou até zero para alguns.
31:44
And that's sort of a warning sign
kind of a problem.
647
1892764
2954
E isso é um sinal de alerta
para um problema.
31:47
Where can I join a club
648
1895742
1749
Onde me associar a um clube
31:49
where I'll have a lot in common
with a person who drives a pickup truck
649
1897515
3414
em que eu terei muito em comum
com alguém que tenha uma caminhonete,
pois temos algum interesse em comum?
31:52
because we have a common
interest in whatever?
650
1900953
2175
31:55
CA: And so the internet is definitely
contributing to this.
651
1903152
2812
CA: A internet contribui muito nisso.
31:57
A question here from Chris Ajemian:
652
1905988
2153
Uma pergunta do Chris Ajemian:
"Como você acha
que as estruturas de comunicação,
32:00
"How do you feel structure
of communications,
653
1908165
2125
32:02
especially the prevalence of social
media and individualized content,
654
1910314
3730
principalmente o predomínio de redes
sociais e conteúdo individualizados,
32:06
can be used to bring together
a political divide,
655
1914068
2470
podem ser usados para unir
uma divisão política,
32:08
instead of just filing communities
into echo chambers?"
656
1916562
3235
em vez de agir como câmaras de eco
para as comunidades?"
32:11
I mean, it looks like Facebook
and Google, since the election,
657
1919821
4449
Parece que o Facebook
e o Google, desde a eleição,
32:16
are working hard on this question.
658
1924294
1679
estão pensando muito sobre isso.
32:17
They're trying to change the algorithms
659
1925997
3818
Estão tentando modificar os algoritmos,
32:21
so that they don't amplify fake news
660
1929839
3639
para que eles não amplifiquem
as notícias falsas
32:25
to the extent that it happened
last time round.
661
1933502
2406
e que não aconteça
o que aconteceu da última vez.
32:27
Do you see any other
promising signs of ...?
662
1935932
2224
Vocês veem alguns sinais
promissores de...
32:30
GC: ... or amplify one side
of the equation.
663
1938180
2103
GC: ... ou de amplificar
apenas um dos lados.
CA: Exatamente.
32:32
CA: Exactly.
664
1940307
1151
GC: Acho que esse foi o argumento
recorrente da direita,
32:33
GC: I think that was the constant
argument from the right,
665
1941482
4365
de que as redes sociais
e a internet em geral
32:37
that social media
and the internet in general
666
1945871
2570
32:40
was putting articles towards the top
that were not their worldview.
667
1948465
3822
estavam colocando artigos no topo
que não partilhavam de suas visões.
32:44
I think, again, that fed into the anger.
668
1952311
2942
Acho que, novamente,
isso alimentou a raiva.
32:47
It fed into the anger of:
669
1955277
1535
Alimentou a raiva de:
32:48
"You're pushing something
that's not what I believe."
670
1956836
2780
"Estão me empurrando coisas
nas quais não acredito".
32:51
But social media has obviously
changed everything,
671
1959640
2420
Mas as redes sociais, obviamente,
mudaram tudo,
32:54
and I think Trump is the example
of Twitter changing absolutely everything.
672
1962084
4377
e acho que o Trump é o exemplo
do Twitter mudando tudo.
32:58
And from his point of view,
673
1966485
2003
E, do ponto de vista dele,
33:00
he's reaching the American people
without a filter,
674
1968512
4297
é uma forma de ele falar com o povo
norte-americano sem filtros,
33:04
which he believes the media is.
675
1972833
2715
o que ele acredita que a mídia faça.
33:09
CA: Question from the audience.
676
1977365
2419
CA: Perguntas do público.
33:12
Destiny: Hi. I'm Destiny.
677
1980498
1825
Destiny: Olá. Sou a Destiny.
33:14
I have a question regarding political
correctness, and I'm curious:
678
1982347
4330
Tenho uma pergunta sobre o politicamente
correto e estou curiosa:
33:18
When did political correctness
become synonymous with silencing,
679
1986701
4670
quando o politicamente correto
virou um sinônimo de silenciar,
33:23
versus a way that we speak
about other people
680
1991395
5115
em vez de ser uma maneira
de falarmos sobre outras pessoas
33:28
to show them respect
and preserve their dignity?
681
1996534
3139
e lhes mostrar respeito
e preservar sua dignidade?
33:31
GC: Well, I think the conservative media
really pounded this issue
682
1999697
3388
GC: Creio que a mídia conservadora
tocou muito nesse assunto
33:35
for the last 10 years.
683
2003109
1864
nos últimos dez anos.
33:36
I think that they really, really
spent a lot of time
684
2004997
3361
Acho que eles passaram muito tempo
falando sobre o politicamente correto
33:40
talking about political correctness,
685
2008382
1806
33:42
and how people should have
the ability to say what they think.
686
2010212
3403
e que as pessoas deveriam
ser capazes de dizer o que pensam.
33:45
Another reason why Trump
became so popular:
687
2013639
2170
Uma das razões da popularidade do Trump
é que ele fala o que pensa.
33:47
because he says what he thinks.
688
2015833
1878
33:49
It also makes me think about the fact
689
2017735
4632
Isso me faz pensar sobre o fato
33:55
that I do believe there are a lot
of people in America
690
2023756
3035
de que há muitas pessoas nos EUA
33:58
who agree with Steve Bannon,
691
2026815
3892
que concordam com o Steve Bannon,
34:02
but they would never say it publicly,
692
2030731
1939
mas nunca diriam isso abertamente,
34:04
and so voting for Trump
gave them the opportunity
693
2032694
3084
então, votar no Trump
lhes deu a oportunidade
34:07
to agree with it silently.
694
2035802
1604
de concordarem silenciosamente.
34:10
DB: On the issue of immigration,
it's a legitimate point of view
695
2038816
4964
DB: O problema da imigração
é um ponto de vista legitimo.
34:15
that we have too many immigrants
in the country,
696
2043804
2427
Temos imigrantes demais no país,
e isso custa muito economicamente.
34:18
that it's economically costly.
697
2046255
1466
CA: De que temos muitos...
34:19
CA: That we have too many --
698
2047745
1356
34:21
DB: Immigrants in the country,
especially from Britain.
699
2049125
2609
DB: Imigrantes no pais,
principalmente da Grã-Bretanha.
34:23
(Laughter)
700
2051758
1174
(Risos)
34:24
GC: I kind of like the British accent, OK?
701
2052956
2750
GC: Eu até gosto do sotaque britânico.
34:27
CA: I apologize. America, I am sorry.
702
2055730
2347
CA: Me desculpem. América, eu sinto muito.
34:30
(Laughter)
703
2058101
1655
(Risos)
34:31
I'll go now.
704
2059780
1717
Vou embora.
34:33
DB: But it became
sort of impermissible to say that,
705
2061521
5924
DB: Tornou-se inadmissível afirmar isso,
pois é um sinal de que, de alguma maneira,
você é um intolerante.
34:39
because it was a sign that somehow
you must be a bigot of some sort.
706
2067469
3445
34:42
So the political correctness
was not only cracking down on speech
707
2070938
3951
Então, o politicamente correto
não estava só restringindo a fala
34:46
that we would all find
completely offensive,
708
2074913
2223
que todos nós acharíamos ofensiva,
34:49
it was cracking down on some speech
that was legitimate,
709
2077160
2782
como também restringia
algumas falas que eram legitimas,
34:51
and then it was turning speech
and thought into action
710
2079966
4548
e estava transformando a fala
e o pensamento em ações
34:56
and treating it as a crime,
711
2084538
2060
e tratando-os como um crime.
34:58
and people getting fired
and people thrown out of schools,
712
2086622
2920
E pessoas estavam sendo demitidas
e expulsas de escolas,
35:01
and there were speech codes written.
713
2089566
1742
e havia códigos de fala escritos.
35:03
Now there are these diversity teams,
714
2091332
1794
Hoje existem grupos de diversidade
35:05
where if you say something
that somebody finds offensive,
715
2093150
2680
em que, se você disser algo
que alguém ache ofensivo,
35:07
like, "Smoking is really dangerous,"
you can say "You're insulting my group,"
716
2095854
3696
como "Fumar é muito perigoso",
você pode dizer: "Isso ofende meu grupo",
35:11
and the team from the administration
will come down into your dorm room
717
2099574
3538
e uma equipe da administração
virá até seu dormitório
35:15
and put thought police upon you.
718
2103136
2541
com a polícia do pensamento.
35:17
And so there has been a genuine narrowing
of what is permissible to say.
719
2105701
5189
Realmente há uma genuína redução
sobre o que é permitido falar.
35:22
And some of it is legitimate.
720
2110914
1868
E algumas dessas coisas são legítimas.
35:24
There are certain words that there
should be some social sanction against,
721
2112806
5363
Há certas palavras que deveriam ter
uma sanção social contra elas,
mas algumas delas foram utilizadas
para reforçar uma ideologia política.
35:30
but some of it was used
to enforce a political agenda.
722
2118193
2974
35:33
CA: So is that a project
723
2121191
1213
CA: Isso seria um projeto
35:34
you would urge on liberals,
if you like -- progressives --
724
2122428
2980
que você incitaria nos liberais
ou, digamos, progressistas,
35:37
to rethink the ground rules
around political correctness
725
2125432
4917
para que eles repensem as regras básicas
do politicamente correto
35:42
and accept a little more
uncomfortable language
726
2130373
5695
e aceitem um pouco mais
a linguagem desconfortante
35:48
in certain circumstances?
727
2136092
2834
em certas circunstâncias?
35:50
Can you see that being solved
728
2138950
1734
Você consegue ver isso se resolvendo
35:52
to an extent that others
won't be so offended?
729
2140708
4203
para que os outros
não fiquem tão ofendidos?
35:56
DB: I mean, most American universities,
especially elite universities,
730
2144935
3324
DB: A maioria das universidades dos EUA,
especialmente as de elite,
36:00
are overwhelmingly on the left,
731
2148283
1533
são esmagadoramente de esquerda,
36:01
and there's just an ease of temptation
732
2149840
1862
e há uma tentação tranquilizadora
36:03
to use your overwhelming cultural power
to try to enforce some sort of thought
733
2151726
4193
em usar seu esmagador poder cultural
para tentar reforçar algum pensamento
36:07
that you think is right
and correct thought.
734
2155943
2289
que você ache que seja correto.
36:10
So, be a little more self-suspicious
of, are we doing that?
735
2158256
3203
Então, desconfie mais
das coisas que você faz.
36:13
And second, my university,
the University of Chicago,
736
2161483
3476
Além disso, minha universidade,
a Universidade de Chicago,
escreveu uma carta afirmando
que ela não terá espaços seguros.
36:16
sent out this letter saying,
we will have no safe spaces.
737
2164983
2730
36:19
There will be no critique
of micro-aggression.
738
2167737
2410
Não haverá críticas sobre microagressões.
36:22
If you get your feelings hurt,
well, welcome to the world of education.
739
2170171
3461
Se você ficar magoado, seja bem-vindo
ao mundo da educação.
36:25
I do think that policy --
740
2173656
1414
Eu acho que essa política,
36:27
which is being embraced by a lot
of people on the left, by the way --
741
2175094
3334
que, aliás, está sendo adotada
por muitas pessoas da esquerda,
é apenas uma correção do que aconteceu.
36:30
is just a corrective to what's happened.
742
2178452
2166
36:32
CA: So here's a question
from Karen Holloway:
743
2180642
2109
CA: Uma pergunta de Karen Holloway:
36:34
How do we foster an American culture
744
2182775
2330
"Como fomentar uma cultura norte-americana
36:37
that's forward-looking, like Hamilton,
745
2185129
2524
que pensa no futuro, como o Hamilton,
36:39
that expects and deals with change,
746
2187677
2528
que espera e sabe lidar com mudanças,
36:42
rather than wanting to have everything
go back to some fictional past?
747
2190229
3684
em vez de querer que tudo volte
para um passado de ficção?"
36:47
That's an easy question, right?
748
2195104
1578
Essa é uma pergunta fácil, né?
36:48
GC: Well, I'm still a believer
in the American dream,
749
2196706
2591
GC: Eu ainda acredito no sonho americano,
36:51
and I think what we can teach
our children is the basics,
750
2199321
3434
e creio que o que podemos ensinar
a nossas crianças é o básico,
36:54
which is that hard work
751
2202779
3397
que, ao trabalhar duro
36:58
and believing in yourself
752
2206200
2510
e acreditar em si mesmo,
37:01
in America, you can achieve
whatever you want.
753
2209597
2220
nos EUA, você pode alcançar tudo.
37:03
I was told that every single day.
754
2211841
1661
Falavam isso para mim todo o dia.
37:05
When I got in the real world, I was like,
wow, that's maybe not always so true.
755
2213526
4031
Quando fui ao mundo real, percebi
que talvez isso não fosse sempre verdade.
37:09
But I still believe in that.
756
2217581
1671
Mas ainda acredito nisso.
37:11
Maybe I'm being too optimistic.
757
2219276
1573
Talvez eu seja otimista demais.
37:12
So I still look towards the future
for that to continue.
758
2220873
3711
Ainda quero que, no futuro, isso continue.
37:17
DB: I think you're being too optimistic.
759
2225108
2162
DB: Acho que você é muito otimista.
37:19
GC: You do?
760
2227294
1158
GC: Mesmo?
37:20
DB: The odds of an American young person
exceeding their parents' salary --
761
2228476
4032
DB: As chances de um jovem norte-americano
ultrapassar o salário dos pais,
na geração passada, era de 86%,
37:24
a generation ago, like 86 percent did it.
762
2232532
2537
37:27
Now 51 percent do it.
763
2235093
1759
já hoje é só de 51%.
37:28
There's just been a problem
in social mobility in the country.
764
2236876
3268
Simplesmente há um problema
de mobilidade social neste país.
37:32
CA: You've written that this entire
century has basically been a disaster,
765
2240168
4829
CA: Você escreveu que este século todo
está sendo um desastre,
37:37
that the age of sunny growth is over
and we're in deep trouble.
766
2245021
5633
e que a era de ouro do crescimento
acabou e estamos com grandes problemas.
37:42
DB: Yeah, I mean, we averaged,
in real terms, population-adjusted,
767
2250678
4459
DB: Sim, nossa média, em termos reais,
com ajustes populacionais,
37:47
two or three percent growth for 50 years,
768
2255161
2120
é de 2% ou 3% de crescimento em 50 anos,
37:49
and now we've had less
than one percent growth.
769
2257305
2544
e, hoje, temos menos de 1% de crescimento.
37:51
And so there's something seeping out.
770
2259873
2499
Ou seja, tem algo escapando.
37:54
And so if I'm going to tell people
that they should take risks,
771
2262396
4573
Se vou continuar dizendo às pessoas
que elas assumam riscos,
37:58
one of the things we're seeing
is a rapid decline in mobility,
772
2266993
3047
uma das coisas que vemos
é uma redução drástica em mobilidade,
38:02
the number of people who are moving
across state lines,
773
2270064
3369
o número de pessoas que estão
se mudando para outros estados,
38:05
and that's especially true
among millennials.
774
2273457
3015
e isso é verdade principalmente
para os "millennials".
38:08
It's young people that are moving less.
775
2276496
1890
São os jovens que se mudam menos.
38:10
So how do we give people the security
from which they can take risk?
776
2278410
3901
Como podemos dar às pessoas a segurança
para que elas possam assumir riscos?
38:14
And I'm a big believer in attachment
theory of raising children,
777
2282335
3582
Acredito muito na teoria do apego
na criação de crianças,
38:17
and attachment theory
is based on the motto
778
2285941
2584
e o lema da teoria do apego é
38:20
that all of life is a series
of daring adventures from a secure base.
779
2288549
4422
que toda a vida é uma série de aventuras
ousadas que vêm de uma base segura.
38:25
Have you parents given you a secure base?
780
2293579
2373
Seus pais te deram uma base segura?
38:27
And as a society,
we do not have a secure base,
781
2295976
2373
Como sociedade, não temos uma base segura,
38:30
and we won't get to that "Hamilton,"
risk-taking, energetic ethos
782
2298373
4388
e não chegaremos a esse "ethos"
"Hamilton", cheio de energia e arriscado,
38:34
until we can supply a secure base.
783
2302785
2457
até que possamos prover uma base segura.
38:37
CA: So I wonder whether
there's ground here
784
2305266
3399
CA: Me pergunto se há motivos
38:40
to create almost like a shared agenda,
a bridging conversation,
785
2308689
4757
para criar uma conversa conectada,
uma ideologia quase compartilhada,
38:45
on the one hand recognizing
that there is this really deep problem
786
2313470
5346
por um lado reconhecendo
que há mesmo um grande problema,
38:50
that the system,
the economic system that we built,
787
2318840
2505
que o sistema econômico que criamos
38:53
seems to be misfiring right now.
788
2321369
2920
agora parece estar falhando.
38:57
Second, that maybe, if you're right
that it's not all about immigrants,
789
2325244
5370
Por outro lado, se você estiver certo
que não é só sobre imigração,
39:02
it's probably more about technology,
790
2330638
1958
é provavelmente mais sobre tecnologia,
39:04
if you could win that argument,
791
2332620
2024
se você tiver o ponto de vista certo,
39:06
that de-emphasizes what seems to me
the single most divisive territory
792
2334668
5169
isso apaga o que parece ser
o território mais discordante
39:11
between Trump supporters and others,
which is around the role of the other.
793
2339861
4054
entre os apoiadores de Trump e os outros:
que é sobre o papel do "outro".
39:15
It's very offensive to people on the left
to have the other demonized
794
2343939
4050
É muito ofensivo para a esquerda
que o "outro" seja demonizado
39:20
to the extent that the other
seems to be demonized.
795
2348013
2705
até o ponto em que o "outro"
pareça estar demonizado.
39:22
That feels deeply immoral,
796
2350742
2578
Isso parece ser muito imoral,
e talvez as pessoas da esquerda
concordariam, como você disse,
39:25
and maybe people on the left
could agree, as you said,
797
2353344
2870
39:28
that immigration
may have happened too fast,
798
2356238
2861
que a imigração tenha
acontecido rápido demais,
39:31
and there is a limit beyond which
human societies struggle,
799
2359123
4577
e que há um limite além do qual
sociedades humanas sofrem,
39:35
but nonetheless this whole problem
becomes de-emphasized
800
2363724
4089
mas, não obstante, todo
esse problema é ocultado
se a automação é o problema-chave,
39:39
if automation is the key issue,
801
2367837
2135
e depois tentaremos trabalhar juntos
para reconhecer o que é real,
39:41
and then we try to work together
on recognizing that it's real,
802
2369996
2954
39:44
recognizing that the problem
probably wasn't properly addressed
803
2372974
3129
reconhecer que o problema
não foi propriamente discutido,
39:48
or seen or heard,
804
2376127
1346
ou visto, ou escutado,
39:49
and try to figure out
how to rebuild communities
805
2377497
3309
e tentar arranjar um jeito
de reconstruir comunidades
39:52
using, well, using what?
806
2380830
2008
usando... bem, usando o quê?
39:54
That seems to me to become
the fertile conversation of the future:
807
2382862
4036
Essa parece estar se tornando
a discussão fértil do futuro:
39:58
How do we rebuild communities
in this modern age,
808
2386922
3120
como podemos reconstruir comunidades
nesta era moderna,
40:02
with technology doing what it's doing,
809
2390066
2332
com os feitos da tecnologia,
40:04
and reimagine this bright future?
810
2392422
2195
e reimaginar um futuro brilhante?
40:06
GC: That's why I go back to optimism.
811
2394641
2103
GC: É por isso que retorno ao otimismo.
40:08
I'm not being ... it's not like
I'm not looking at the facts,
812
2396768
3875
Não é como se eu
estivesse ignorando os fatos,
40:12
where we've come or where we've come from.
813
2400667
2438
onde chegamos e de onde viemos.
40:15
But for gosh sakes, if we don't look
at it from an optimistic point of view --
814
2403129
3987
Mas, pelo amor de Deus, se não tivermos
um ponto de vista otimista,
40:19
I'm refusing to do that just yet.
815
2407140
1704
ainda me recuso a fazer isso.
40:20
I'm not raising my 12- and 13-year-old
to say, "Look, the world is dim."
816
2408868
4214
Não vou criar meus filhos de 12 e 13 anos
dizendo: "O mundo é um lugar sombrio".
40:25
CA; We're going to have
one more question from the room here.
817
2413106
2996
CA: Teremos uma última
pergunta das pessoas aqui.
40:28
Questioner: Hi. Hello. Sorry.
818
2416126
3666
Público: Olá. Desculpem.
40:31
You both mentioned
the infrastructure plan and Russia
819
2419816
3504
Vocês dois mencionaram o plano
de infraestrutura e a Rússia
40:35
and some other things that wouldn't be
traditional Republican priorities.
820
2423344
5365
e outras coisas que não seriam
prioridades republicanas tradicionais.
O que vocês acham, ou quando
os republicanos vão se sentir motivados
40:40
What do you think, or when,
will Republicans be motivated
821
2428733
6569
40:47
to take a stand against Trumpism?
822
2435326
3985
a se posicionar contra o trumpismo?
40:51
GC: After last night, not for a while.
823
2439739
2923
GC: Depois de ontem, vai demorar.
40:54
He changed a lot last night, I believe.
824
2442686
2350
Creio que ele mudou muita coisa ontem.
40:57
DB: His popularity among Republicans --
he's got 85 percent approval,
825
2445060
3651
DB: Sua popularidade com os republicanos
já está em 85% de aprovação,
41:00
which is higher than Reagan
had at this time,
826
2448735
2220
que é maior do que a do Reagan.
41:02
and that's because society
has just gotten more polarized.
827
2450979
2916
Isso acontece porque a sociedade
está mais polarizada.
41:05
So people follow the party
much more than they used to.
828
2453919
2649
Assim, as pessoas seguem mais
seu partido do que antes.
41:08
So if you're waiting for Paul Ryan
and the Republicans in Congress
829
2456592
3156
Se estiver esperando que Paul Ryan
e os republicanos no congresso cedam,
41:11
to flake away,
830
2459772
1159
isso ainda vai demorar um pouco.
41:12
it's going to take a little while.
831
2460955
1649
41:14
GC: But also because they're all
concerned about reelection,
832
2462628
3482
GC: E também porque todos eles
se preocupam com a reeleição,
41:18
and Trump has so much power
with getting people either for you
833
2466134
3695
e o Trump tem muito poder
de colocar o povo a seu favor
41:21
or against you,
834
2469853
1441
ou contra você,
41:23
and so, they're vacillating
every day, probably:
835
2471318
2338
assim, estão hesitantes todos os dias:
41:25
"Well, should I go against
or should I not?"
836
2473680
2116
"Eu deveria contrariá-lo ou não?"
41:27
But last night, where he finally
sounded presidential,
837
2475820
3499
Mas, ontem, quando ele finalmente
pareceu presidencial,
41:31
I think most Republicans are breathing
a sigh of relief today.
838
2479343
3732
acho que muitos republicanos estão
respirando aliviados hoje.
41:35
DB: The half-life of that is short.
839
2483099
2290
DB: A meia-vida disso é curta.
41:37
GC: Right -- I was just going to say,
until Twitter happens again.
840
2485413
3255
CG: Sim... eu já ia dizer.
Isso até que ele tuíte de novo.
41:40
CA: OK, I want to give
each of you the chance
841
2488692
3068
CA: Ok, quero dar a chance a vocês
41:43
to imagine you're speaking
to -- I don't know --
842
2491784
3827
de imaginarem que estão
falando com, não sei...
com as pessoas on-line
que estão assistindo,
41:47
the people online who are watching this,
843
2495635
1951
que talvez sejam apoiadores do Trump,
41:49
who may be Trump supporters,
844
2497610
1546
41:51
who may be on the left,
somewhere in the middle.
845
2499180
3052
que talvez sejam de esquerda,
ou de algum lugar no meio.
41:54
How would you advise them to bridge
or to relate to other people?
846
2502829
6795
Qual o conselho que dariam
de como eles poderiam se unir?
42:01
Can you share any final wisdom on this?
847
2509648
4149
Podem compartilhar suas ideias finais?
42:05
Or if you think that they shouldn't,
tell them that as well.
848
2513821
3774
Ou, se vocês acham que eles não
deveriam se unir, digam isso a eles.
42:09
GC: I would just start by saying
849
2517619
1636
GC: Gostaria de começar dizendo
42:11
that I really think any change
and coming together starts from the top,
850
2519279
4311
que creio que qualquer mudança
para nos unirmos vem do topo,
42:15
just like any other organization.
851
2523614
1938
assim como qualquer outra organização.
42:18
And I would love if, somehow,
852
2526714
2878
Eu amaria se, de alguma maneira,
42:21
Trump supporters or people on the left
could encourage their leaders
853
2529616
4563
os apoiadores de Trump e aqueles
de esquerda encorajassem seus líderes
42:26
to show that compassion from the top,
854
2534203
2552
a mostrarem compaixão lá do topo,
42:28
because imagine the change
that we could have
855
2536779
3674
pois imaginem toda a mudança que teríamos
se o Donald Trump tuitasse hoje,
42:32
if Donald Trump tweeted out today,
856
2540477
2128
42:34
to all of his supporters,
857
2542629
1661
para todos seus apoiadores:
42:36
"Let's not be vile anymore to each other.
858
2544314
2660
"Não vamos mais ofender uns aos outros.
42:38
Let's have more understanding.
859
2546998
1674
Sejamos mais compreensíveis.
42:40
As a leader, I'm going
to be more inclusive
860
2548696
2830
Como um líder, serei mais inclusivo
42:43
to all of the people of America."
861
2551550
1935
com todas as pessoas dos EUA".
42:46
To me, it starts at the top.
862
2554392
2093
Para mim, começa do topo.
42:48
Is he going to do that? I have no idea.
863
2556509
3377
Ele faria isso? Eu não tenho ideia.
42:51
But I think that everything
starts from the top,
864
2559910
2700
Mas creio que tudo vem do topo,
42:54
and the power that he has
865
2562634
1729
e do poder que ele tem
42:56
in encouraging his supporters
866
2564387
2989
em encorajar seus apoiadores
42:59
to have an understanding of where
people are coming from on the other side.
867
2567400
3813
a compreenderem qual é a mentalidade
das pessoas no outro lado.
43:04
CA: David. DB: Yeah, I guess I would say
868
2572497
2499
CA: David.
DB: É, acho que diria
43:07
I don't think we can teach
each other to be civil,
869
2575020
2742
que não acho que possamos
nos ensinar como ser civis,
43:09
and give us sermons on civility.
870
2577786
1743
e nos dar sermões sobre civilidade.
43:11
That's not going to do it.
871
2579553
1244
Isso não adiantará.
43:12
It's substance and how we act,
872
2580821
1684
Vem da firmeza e de como agimos,
43:14
and the nice thing about Donald Trump
is he smashed our categories.
873
2582529
3619
e uma coisa boa sobre o Donald Trump
foi que ele destruiu nossas categorias.
43:18
All the categories that we thought
we were thinking in, they're obsolete.
874
2586172
4122
Todas as categorias em que nos
enquadrávamos estão obsoletas.
43:22
They were great for the 20th century.
They're not good for today.
875
2590318
3082
Elas eram ótimas no século 20,
mas não funcionam mais hoje.
Ele tem uma agenda de fechar
fronteiras e acordos comerciais.
43:25
He's got an agenda which is about
closing borders and closing trade.
876
2593424
3231
Não acho que irá funcionar.
43:28
I just don't think it's going to work.
877
2596679
1825
Creio que, se quisermos reconstruir
comunidades, gerar empregos,
43:30
I think if we want to rebuild
communities, recreate jobs,
878
2598528
2821
43:33
we need a different set of agenda
879
2601373
1654
precisaremos de um novo tipo de agenda
43:35
that smashes through all our current
divisions and our current categories.
880
2603051
3571
que destrua nossas divisões
e as categorias atuais.
43:38
For me, that agenda is Reaganism
on macroeconomic policy,
881
2606646
3516
Para mim, essa agenda é a do "reaganismo"
na política macroeconômica,
43:42
Sweden on welfare policy
882
2610186
2170
a política do bem-estar social da Suécia,
e perpassa a direita e a esquerda.
43:44
and cuts across right and left.
883
2612380
2202
Precisamos de uma economia
dinâmica que crie crescimento.
43:46
I think we have to have a dynamic
economy that creates growth.
884
2614606
2937
43:49
That's the Reagan on economic policy.
885
2617567
1833
Era a política econômica do Reagan.
43:51
But people have to have that secure base.
886
2619424
1965
Mas as pessoas precisam
daquela base segura.
43:53
There have to be
nurse-family partnerships;
887
2621413
2051
Temos que ter parcerias na saúde
da família, pré-escola para todos;
43:55
there has to be universal preschool;
888
2623488
1778
43:57
there have to be charter schools;
889
2625290
1995
escolas autônomas são necessárias;
43:59
there have to be college programs
with wraparound programs
890
2627309
2968
programas universitários que envolvam
os pais e a comunidade.
44:02
for parents and communities.
891
2630301
1481
44:03
We need to help heal the crisis
of social solidarity in this country
892
2631806
4996
Precisamos ajudar a curar a crise
da solidariedade social deste país
44:08
and help heal families,
893
2636826
1496
e ajudar a curar famílias,
44:10
and government just has to get
a lot more involved
894
2638346
2334
e o governo tem que se envolver mais
44:12
in the way liberals like
to rebuild communities.
895
2640704
3663
da maneira que os liberais fazem
para reconstruir comunidades.
44:16
At the other hand, we have to have
an economy that's free and open
896
2644391
3222
Por outro lado, uma economia
aberta e livre é necessária
44:19
the way conservatives used to like.
897
2647637
1926
da maneira como os conservadores faziam.
44:21
And so getting the substance right
is how you smash through
898
2649587
3058
Logo, é acertando no essencial que se pode
destruir as identidades partidárias
44:24
the partisan identities,
899
2652669
1392
44:26
because the substance is what
ultimately shapes our polarization.
900
2654085
3303
pois, é a essência que, no fim das contas,
dá forma a nossa polarização.
44:30
CA: David and Gretchen, thank you so much
901
2658752
1969
CA: David e Gretchen, muito obrigado
por uma conversa absolutamente fascinante.
44:32
for an absolutely
fascinating conversation.
902
2660745
2135
44:34
Thank you. That was really,
really interesting.
903
2662904
3137
Obrigado. Foi muito, muito interessante.
44:38
(Applause)
904
2666065
3323
(Aplausos)
44:41
Hey, let's keep the conversation going.
905
2669412
4268
Vamos tentar continuar a conversa.
44:45
We're continuing to try and figure out
906
2673704
2117
Vamos continuar tentando entender
44:47
whether we can add something here,
907
2675845
1636
se podemos adicionar algo aqui,
44:49
so keep the conversation
going on Facebook.
908
2677505
2041
então, continuem a conversa no Facebook.
44:51
Give us your thoughts from whatever part
of the political spectrum you're on,
909
2679570
3690
Digam-nos o que pensam, seja lá de qual
parte do espectro político vocês sejam
44:55
and actually, wherever
in the world you are.
910
2683284
2061
e de que parte do mundo vocês sejam.
44:57
This is not just about America.
It's about the world, too.
911
2685369
2758
Não é só sobre os Estados Unidos.
É sobre o mundo também.
45:01
But we're not going
to end today without music,
912
2689476
2334
Mas não vamos terminar hoje sem música,
45:03
because if we put music
in every political conversation,
913
2691834
4792
pois, se tocássemos música
em toda conversa política,
45:08
the world would be
completely different, frankly.
914
2696650
2438
francamente, o mundo seria
completamente diferente.
45:11
It just would.
915
2699112
1778
Simplesmente seria.
45:12
(Applause)
916
2700914
2607
(Aplausos)
45:15
Up in Harlem, this extraordinary woman,
917
2703545
2090
Lá no Harlem, há uma mulher incrível,
Vy Higginsen, que está bem aqui...
45:17
Vy Higginsen, who's actually right here --
918
2705659
2425
vamos mostrá-la...
45:20
let's get a shot of her.
919
2708108
1241
45:21
(Applause)
920
2709373
3369
(Aplausos)
45:24
She created this program
that brings teens together,
921
2712766
4283
Ela criou um programa que junta jovens
45:29
teaches them the joy
and the impact of gospel music,
922
2717073
3444
e os ensina o prazer
e o impacto da música gospel,
45:32
and hundreds of teens have gone
through this program.
923
2720541
3979
e centenas de adolescentes
já fizeram parte do programa.
45:36
It's transformative for them.
924
2724544
1519
É transformador para eles.
45:38
The music they made, as you already heard,
925
2726087
2188
A música que eles fazem,
vocês já escutaram, é extraordinária
45:40
is extraordinary,
926
2728299
1306
45:41
and I can't think of a better way
of ending this TED Dialogue
927
2729629
4374
e não consigo pensar numa maneira melhor
de terminar este Diálogos TED
45:46
than welcoming Vy Higginsen's
Gospel Choir from Harlem.
928
2734027
3807
do que dando boas vindas ao Coro
Gospel de Harlem, da Vy Higginsen.
45:49
Thank you.
929
2737858
1177
Obrigado.
45:51
(Applause)
930
2739059
3158
(Aplausos)
46:10
(Singing) Choir: O beautiful
for spacious skies
931
2758888
4634
♪ Coro: Ó, linda,
pelos céus espaçosos
46:15
For amber waves of grain
932
2763546
4932
Pelas ondas ambarinas granuladas
46:20
For purple mountain majesties
933
2768502
4724
Pelas majestosas montanhas roxas
46:25
Above the fruited plain
934
2773250
4706
Acima da planície frutada
46:29
America!
935
2777980
2171
América!
46:34
America!
936
2782649
2624
América!
46:39
America!
937
2787182
2206
América!
46:42
America!
938
2790546
3260
América!
46:48
God shed his grace on thee
939
2796318
4652
Deus derramou Sua graça sobre ti
46:52
And crown thy good with brotherhood
940
2800994
4415
E coroou teu bem com fraternidade
46:57
From sea to shining sea
941
2805433
6987
De mar a mar cintilante
47:11
From sea to shining sea
942
2819648
6997
De mar a mar cintilante ♪.
47:25
(Applause)
943
2833417
6830
(Aplausos)
Translated by Joao Vital Parente Correia
Reviewed by Raissa Mendes

▲Back to top

ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Gretchen Carlson - TV journalist, women's empowerment advocate
Gretchen Carlson is a tireless advocate for workplace equality and women's empowerment.

Why you should listen

Named one of TIME's 100 Most Influential People in the World for 2017, Gretchen Carlson is one of the nation's most highly acclaimed journalists and a warrior for women. In 2016, Carlson became the face of sexual harassment in the workplace after her lawsuit against Fox News Chairman and CEO Roger Ailes paved the way for thousands of other women facing harassment to tell their stories. Carlson's advocacy put her on the cover of TIME, and her new book, Be Fierce: Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back, joined the New York Times best-seller list the week it was published. She became a columnist for TIME's online "Motto" newsletter in 2017, focusing on gender and empowerment issues.

Carlson's ongoing work on behalf of women includes advocating for arbitration reform on Capitol Hill; in 2018, she plans to testify before Congress about workplace inequality and forced arbitration clauses in employment contracts. Carlson also created the Gift of Courage Fund and the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative to support empowerment, advocacy and anti-harassment programs for girls and underserved women.

Carlson hosted "The Real Story" on Fox News for three years; co-hosted "Fox and Friends" for seven years; and in her first book, Getting Real, became a national best-seller. She co-hosted "The Saturday Early Show" for CBS in 2000 and served as a CBS News correspondent covering stories including Geneoa's G-8 Summit, Timothy McVeigh’s execution, 9/11 from the World Trade Center and the Bush-Gore election. She started her reporting career in Richmond, Virginia, then served as an anchor and reporter in Cincinnati, Cleveland and Dallas, where she produced and reported a 30-part series on domestic violence that won several national awards.

An honors graduate of Stanford University, Carlson was valedictorian of her high school class and studied at Oxford University in England. A child prodigy on the violin, she performed as a soloist with the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra at age 13, and in 1989, became the first classical violinist to win the Miss America crown.

Ever grateful for the opportunities provided to her and imbued with a "never give up" attitude, Carlson has mentored dozens of young women throughout her career. She serves as a national trustee for the March of Dimes, a member of the board of directors for the Catherine Violet Hubbard Animal Sanctuary in Newtown, Connecticut and a trustee of Greenwich Academy, an all-girls preparatory day school in Greenwich, Connecticut. Carlson is married to sports agent Casey Close and mom to their two children.

More profile about the speaker
Gretchen Carlson | Speaker | TED.com
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir - Gospel ensemble
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is an influential source of education and self-development for young people.

Why you should listen

Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir of Harlem is a celebrated group of performers elevated from the Mama Foundation for the Arts' Music School of Gospel, Jazz and R&B. The Foundation, founded by the writer/producer of Mama, I Want to Sing!, is a highly respected and influential source of education and self-development for young people. The award-winning, nationally recognized program offers performance choirs small, medium, and large and has been seen accompanying many of today's pop icons including Ariana Grande, Chance the Rapper, Pharrell Williams, Alessia Cara and Madonna.

In addition to various performances and collaborations throughout New York City, the choir enjoys weekly performances in Harlem. They can be seen every Sunday headlining Ginny Supper Club's Gospel Brunch at Marcus Samuelson's acclaimed restaurant, Red Rooster, which is ranked one of the top five gospel brunches in the nation. The choir will begin Saturday performances in The Harlem Gospel Concert Series beginning April 15th at The Dempsey Theater in Harlem.

More profile about the speaker
Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir | Speaker | TED.com
David Brooks - Op-ed columnist
Writer and thinker David Brooks has covered business, crime and politics over a long career in journalism.

Why you should listen

David Brooks became an Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times in September 2003. He is currently a commentator on "The PBS Newshour," NPR’s "All Things Considered" and NBC's "Meet the Press."

He is the author of Bobos in Paradise and The Social Animal. In April 2015, he released with his fourth book, The Road to Character, which was a #1 New York Times bestseller.

Brooks also teaches at Yale University, and is a member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.

Born on August 11, 1961 in Toronto, Canada, Brooks graduated a bachelor of history from the University of Chicago in 1983. He became a police reporter for the City News Bureau, a wire service owned jointly by the Chicago Tribune and Sun-Times.

He worked at The Washington Times and then The Wall Street Journal for nine years. His last post at the Journal was as Op-ed Editor. Prior to that, he was posted in Brussels, covering Russia, the Middle East, South Africa and European affairs. His first post at the Journal was as editor of the book review section, and he filled in as the Journal's movie critic.

He also served as a senior editor at The Weekly Standard for 9 years, as well as contributing editor for The Atlantic and Newsweek.

More profile about the speaker
David Brooks | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.

Why you should listen

Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.

Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.

Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.

Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.

This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.

He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.

In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.

Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.

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Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com