TED2014
Edward Snowden: Here's how we take back the Internet
爱德华‧斯诺登: 取回属于我们的互联网
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爱德华‧斯诺登以移动机器人登上 TED2014 的讲台，探讨有关监视和网络自由的话题。他认为，保护数据隐私的权利不只是一个政党政治的议题，我们需要从根本上重新思考互联网在我们生活中的角色，和保护它的法律。"你的权利至关重要，"他说，"因为你不会知道你什么时候会需要用到它。"克里斯‧安德森和他进行互动访谈，同时也邀请了特别来宾蒂姆‧博纳斯-李参与对话。
Edward Snowden - Whistleblower
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet. Full bio
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Chris Anderson: The rights of citizens,
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克里斯‧安德森：公民的权利，
00:15
the future of the Internet.
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互联网的未来。
00:17
So I would like to welcome to the TED stage
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让我们欢迎，
将这一切公诸于世的人
将这一切公诸于世的人
00:20
the man behind those revelations,
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来到 TED 的讲台，
00:23
Ed Snowden.
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爱德华‧斯诺登
00:25
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
00:29
Ed is in a remote location somewhere in Russia
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爱德华位于遥远的俄罗斯某处
00:33
controlling this bot from his laptop,
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他通过笔记本电脑
操控这个网络机器人，
操控这个网络机器人，
00:36
so he can see what the bot can see.
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他能看到这个网络机器人
能看到的一切。
能看到的一切。
00:40
Ed, welcome to the TED stage.
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爱德华，欢迎来到TED。
00:42
What can you see, as a matter of fact?
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事实上，你都能看到些什么？
00:46
Edward Snowden: Ha, I can see everyone.
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爱德华‧斯诺登：
哈，我能看到每一个人。
哈，我能看到每一个人。
00:47
This is amazing.
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这太酷了。
00:50
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:53
CA: Ed, some questions for you.
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克里斯‧安德森：爱德华，
我想问你一些问题。
我想问你一些问题。
00:56
You've been called many things
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在过去的几个月里
00:57
in the last few months.
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人们给予你多种称谓。
00:59
You've been called a whistleblower, a traitor,
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你被称作是告密者、卖国贼、
01:04
a hero.
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英雄。
01:06
What words would you describe yourself with?
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你会用怎样的字眼来形容自己？
01:09
ES: You know, everybody who is involved
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爱德华‧斯诺登：那些卷入
01:12
with this debate
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这场争论的人
01:14
has been struggling over me and my personality
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都纠结于我是谁，
我有怎样的性格
我有怎样的性格
01:16
and how to describe me.
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以及要如何描述我。
01:19
But when I think about it,
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但当我想说，
01:21
this isn't the question that
we should be struggling with.
we should be struggling with.
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我们不该纠结于这些问题。
01:25
Who I am really doesn't matter at all.
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我是谁，这真的不重要。
01:28
If I'm the worst person in the world,
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如果我是世界上最坏的人，
01:30
you can hate me and move on.
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你可以恨我，
然后继续你的生活。
然后继续你的生活。
01:32
What really matters here are the issues.
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真正重要的是这些问题。
01:35
What really matters here is the
kind of government we want,
kind of government we want,
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真正重要的是，
我们想要怎样的政府，
我们想要怎样的政府，
01:38
the kind of Internet we want,
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我们想要怎样的互联网，
01:39
the kind of relationship between people
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我们想要怎样的
01:42
and societies.
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人与社会关系。
01:43
And that's what I'm hoping
the debate will move towards,
the debate will move towards,
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这些才是我所希望的讨论方向，
01:46
and we've seen that increasing over time.
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我们也看到，
有更多讨论正在进行中。
有更多讨论正在进行中。
01:49
If I had to describe myself,
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如果我要形容我自己，
01:51
I wouldn't use words like "hero."
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我并不会用“英雄”这样的字眼。
01:52
I wouldn't use "patriot," and I wouldn't use "traitor."
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我不是“爱国者”，
亦不是“叛国贼”。
亦不是“叛国贼”。
01:55
I'd say I'm an American and I'm a citizen,
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我是一个美国人，
是一个公民，
是一个公民，
01:57
just like everyone else.
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就和大家一样。
01:59
CA: So just to give some context
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克里斯‧安德森：现在为那些
02:01
for those who don't know the whole story --
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不了解完整事件的人介绍一下——
02:03
(Applause) —
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（鼓掌）——
02:07
this time a year ago, you were stationed in Hawaii
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一年前，你驻扎在夏威夷
02:12
working as a consultant to the NSA.
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作为美国国家安全局的顾问。
02:14
As a sysadmin, you had access
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作为系统管理员，你可以
02:16
to their systems,
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进入他们的系统，
02:19
and you began revealing
certain classified documents
certain classified documents
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然后你开始将所获取的机密文件
02:23
to some handpicked journalists
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发给你精心挑选的记者们，
02:26
leading the way to June's revelations.
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随之而然，发生了
六月份的揭秘事件。
六月份的揭秘事件。
02:28
Now, what propelled you to do this?
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是什么使你有做这件事的动力呢？
02:33
ES: You know,
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爱德华‧斯诺登：你知道吗，
02:36
when I was sitting in Hawaii,
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当我在夏威夷的时候，
02:38
and the years before, when I was
working in the intelligence community,
working in the intelligence community,
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和之前的一年，
那时我在情报系统工作，
那时我在情报系统工作，
02:41
I saw a lot of things that had disturbed me.
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我看到很多令我不安的事。
02:44
We do a lot of good things
in the intelligence community,
in the intelligence community,
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在情报系统，
我们做很多有益的事，
我们做很多有益的事，
02:48
things that need to be done,
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那些需要被完成的事，
02:49
and things that help everyone.
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那些可以帮助人们的事。
02:51
But there are also things that go too far.
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但是，有些事做得过头了。
02:53
There are things that shouldn't be done,
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不应该做那些事，
02:55
and decisions that were being made in secret
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那些秘密做出的决定，
02:58
without the public's awareness,
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是在公众无意识到的情况下，
02:59
without the public's consent,
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在公众未允许的情况下，
03:02
and without even our representatives in government
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在甚至于政府内的代表
03:04
having knowledge of these programs.
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都不知道的情况下。
03:08
When I really came to struggle with these issues,
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当我和这些事物斗争的时候，
03:13
I thought to myself,
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我想，
03:14
how can I do this in the most responsible way,
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要如何以最可靠地方式完成，
03:17
that maximizes the public benefit
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最大化公众利益
03:20
while minimizing the risks?
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同时将风险最小化？
03:23
And out of all the solutions that I could come up with,
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在我所能想到的所有解决方案
03:26
out of going to Congress,
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除了去国会，
03:28
when there were no laws,
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当没有法律
03:30
there were no legal protections
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也没有针对私人雇员的
03:31
for a private employee,
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合法保护的情况下，
03:33
a contractor in intelligence like myself,
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像我这样在情报系统工作的合约人员，
03:36
there was a risk that I would be
buried along with the information
buried along with the information
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存在着我会和情报一起消失
03:40
and the public would never find out.
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而公众永远都会被蒙在鼓里的风险。
03:42
But the First Amendment of
the United States Constitution
the United States Constitution
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但是美国宪法的第一条修正案
03:45
guarantees us a free press for a reason,
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保证了我们的新闻自由，
03:49
and that's to enable an adversarial press,
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这确保了有站在对立面的媒体，
03:52
to challenge the government,
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来挑战政府，
03:54
but also to work together with the government,
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但同时和政府合作，
03:56
to have a dialogue and debate about how we can
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进行对话，讨论我们要如何
03:59
inform the public about matters of vital importance
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将重要信息传达给公众
04:04
without putting our national security at risk.
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而不会将我们的国家安全置于危险中。
04:07
And by working with journalists,
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通过和记者合作，
04:09
by giving all of my information
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通过将所有我搜集到的信息
04:11
back to the American people,
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还给美国人民，
04:13
rather than trusting myself to make
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而不是相信我自己来
04:15
the decisions about publication,
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做出有关于出版的决定，
04:18
we've had a robust debate
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我们有过一场热烈辩论
04:20
with a deep investment by the government
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有关政府的一项深入投资,
04:23
that I think has resulted in a benefit for everyone.
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我想这是对每个人都是有益的。
04:28
And the risks that have been threatened,
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而政府恐吓的所谓风险，
04:32
the risks that have been played up
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政府宣扬的
04:34
by the government
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所谓风险
04:36
have never materialized.
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从未成为现实。
04:37
We've never seen any evidence
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我们没见到任何一个
04:39
of even a single instance of specific harm,
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具体伤害案例的证据
04:43
and because of that,
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正因为这样
04:44
I'm comfortable with the decisions that I made.
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我对自己做出的决定感到合理。
04:46
CA: So let me show the audience
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克里斯‧安德森： 让我展示给观众
04:49
a couple of examples of what you revealed.
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你揭示的一些文件作为例子。
04:51
If we could have a slide up, and Ed,
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我们向前翻一页，爱德华，
04:53
I don't know whether you can see,
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我不知道你能不能看到
04:55
the slides are here.
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这里展示的幻灯片。
04:56
This is a slide of the PRISM program,
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这个幻灯片展示的
是棱镜门项目，
是棱镜门项目，
04:59
and maybe you could tell the audience
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也许你可以告诉观众
05:01
what that was that was revealed.
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你揭示的是什么。
05:04
ES: The best way to understand PRISM,
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爱德华‧斯诺登：
了解棱镜门最好的方式，
了解棱镜门最好的方式，
05:06
because there's been a little bit of controversy,
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因为存在些许论战，
05:07
is to first talk about what PRISM isn't.
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就是来谈论棱镜门不是什么。
05:11
Much of the debate in the U.S.
has been about metadata.
has been about metadata.
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美国的很多争辩有关元数据。
05:14
They've said it's just metadata, it's just metadata,
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他们说这只是
有关元数据，仅此而已，
有关元数据，仅此而已，
05:17
and they're talking about a specific legal authority
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他们谈论一个特殊的法定权利，
05:19
called Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
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即爱国者法案的第215章节。
05:22
That allows sort of a warrantless wiretapping,
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这个章节允许未经授权的窃听行为，
05:25
mass surveillance of the entire country's
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大面积监察整个国家的
05:28
phone records, things like that --
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电话记录，还有如下的事——
05:30
who you're talking to,
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你在和谁说话，
05:31
when you're talking to them,
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你什么时候和他们说话，
05:33
where you traveled.
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你去了哪里旅游。
05:34
These are all metadata events.
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这都是元数据事件。
05:37
PRISM is about content.
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棱镜门与内容息息相关。
05:40
It's a program through which the government could
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通过这个项目政府能够
05:42
compel corporate America,
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强迫美国的企业
05:44
it could deputize corporate America
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能够代理美国企业
05:48
to do its dirty work for the NSA.
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来为美国国家安全局做卑鄙的工作。
05:52
And even though some of
these companies did resist,
these companies did resist,
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即使很多这些公司做出了抵抗，
05:55
even though some of them --
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即使这其中很多公司——
05:56
I believe Yahoo was one of them —
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我相信雅虎是其中一个——
05:57
challenged them in court, they all lost,
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在法庭上做出了挑战，
但他们都失败了，
但他们都失败了，
06:00
because it was never tried by an open court.
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因为这一切辩论从不是
在公开法庭进行的。
在公开法庭进行的。
06:03
They were only tried by a secret court.
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而是只在秘密法庭中进行。
06:06
And something that we've seen,
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那些我们看到的事情，
06:07
something about the PRISM program
that's very concerning to me is,
that's very concerning to me is,
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那些棱镜门项目中
对我来说感到非常担忧的是，
对我来说感到非常担忧的是，
06:10
there's been a talking point in the U.S. government
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美国政府的其中一条论据是
06:12
where they've said 15 federal judges
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他们说15名联邦法院法官
06:16
have reviewed these programs
and found them to be lawful,
and found them to be lawful,
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审查过这些项目
并且认为这是合法的，
并且认为这是合法的，
06:19
but what they don't tell you
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但他们没有告诉你的是
06:21
is those are secret judges
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那些是秘密法官
06:24
in a secret court
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在秘密法庭
06:26
based on secret interpretations of law
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基于对于法律的秘密解读，
06:29
that's considered 34,000 warrant requests
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在33年内共收到
06:33
over 33 years,
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34000件认证请求，
06:36
and in 33 years only rejected
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并且在33年内，仅拒绝了
06:38
11 government requests.
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11项政府请求。
06:41
These aren't the people that we want deciding
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我们不希望也不需要这些人来
06:43
what the role of corporate America
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决定美国在一个
自由开放的网路社会
自由开放的网路社会
06:46
in a free and open Internet should be.
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所要扮演怎样的角色。
06:48
CA: Now, this slide that we're showing here
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克里斯‧安德森：
现在，这张幻灯片
现在，这张幻灯片
06:50
shows the dates in which
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展示了
各个科技公司，互联网企业，
06:52
different technology companies, Internet companies,
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06:55
are alleged to have joined the program,
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被指加入此项目的日期，
06:57
and where data collection began from them.
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也就是从这些日期起，
这些公司经手的数据被搜集起来。
这些公司经手的数据被搜集起来。
07:00
Now, they have denied collaborating with the NSA.
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此时，它们否认了
与美国国家安全局有合作关系。
与美国国家安全局有合作关系。
07:05
How was that data collected by the NSA?
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这些数据是如何
被美国国家安全局收集的呢？
被美国国家安全局收集的呢？
07:10
ES: Right. So the NSA's own slides
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爱德华‧斯诺登:
有关美国国家安全局的这些页面
有关美国国家安全局的这些页面
07:13
refer to it as direct access.
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指的是其对信息的直接涉入。
07:16
What that means to an actual NSA analyst,
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这对于一个真正的国安局分析师意味着，
07:19
someone like me who was working
as an intelligence analyst
as an intelligence analyst
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像我这样从事情报分析的工作人员，
07:22
targeting, Chinese cyber-hackers,
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追踪，中国的网络骇客，
07:24
things like that, in Hawaii,
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这类的工作，在夏威夷，
07:26
is the provenance of that data
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这些数据的出处
07:28
is directly from their servers.
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是直接来自他们的服务器的。
07:31
It doesn't mean
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这并不是说
07:33
that there's a group of company representatives
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有一批各个公司的代表
07:35
sitting in a smoky room with the NSA
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坐在烟雾缭绕的房间里，
07:38
palling around and making back-room deals
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在国安局打得火热，
从事密室交易
从事密室交易
07:40
about how they're going to give this stuff away.
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探讨他们如何出卖这些数据。
07:42
Now each company handles it different ways.
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每个公司都有不同的处理方式。
07:45
Some are responsible.
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有些公司很负责任。
07:46
Some are somewhat less responsible.
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有些就不那么负责了。
07:48
But the bottom line is, when we talk about
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但主要原則是，当我们讨论到
07:50
how this information is given,
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这些信息是如何提交给国安局，
07:53
it's coming from the companies themselves.
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是这些公司自己提供的。
07:56
It's not stolen from the lines.
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并不是遭到窃取。
07:58
But there's an important thing to remember here:
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但有一点值得注意的是：
08:00
even though companies pushed back,
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即使这些公司退回国安局的提案，
08:02
even though companies demanded,
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即使这些公司询问，
08:04
hey, let's do this through a warrant process,
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嘿，我们可以通过
正当的渠道做这些事，
正当的渠道做这些事，
08:06
let's do this
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我们这样处理
08:08
where we actually have some sort of legal review,
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我们确实有一些法律审查，
08:11
some sort of basis for handing over
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一些类似移交
08:13
these users' data,
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用户数据的基本条例，
08:15
we saw stories in the Washington Post last year
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我们看到华盛顿邮报去年的报道，
08:17
that weren't as well reported as the PRISM story
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尽管没有像棱镜门事件这样详细，
08:21
that said the NSA broke in
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其报道称，国家安全局闯入
08:23
to the data center communications
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谷歌的数据中心
08:25
between Google to itself
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将其连接入自己的数据库，
08:27
and Yahoo to itself.
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同时遭涉入的还有雅虎。
08:29
So even these companies that are cooperating
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即使这些公司
08:32
in at least a compelled but hopefully lawful manner
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至少是在被强迫，
但还是考量到法律因素的状况下
但还是考量到法律因素的状况下
08:34
with the NSA,
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与国安局进行合作，
08:36
the NSA isn't satisfied with that,
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国安局仍对此不甚满意，
08:40
and because of that, we need our companies
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因为这样，我们需要这些公司
08:42
to work very hard
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能够更加努力
08:44
to guarantee that they're going to represent
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来保证他们将会代表
08:47
the interests of the user, and also advocate
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用户的利益，并且
08:49
for the rights of the users.
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为用户的权益发声。
08:51
And I think over the last year,
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1274
我认为，在过去的一年，
08:53
we've seen the companies that are named
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我们看到这些在棱镜门中
08:54
on the PRISM slides
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被点名的公司
08:56
take great strides to do that,
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1809
做出巨大的努力，
08:57
and I encourage them to continue.
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我鼓励他们继续斗争。
09:00
CA: What more should they do?
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克里斯‧安德森：你认为他们
还需要做哪些进一步的工作呢？
还需要做哪些进一步的工作呢？
09:02
ES: The biggest thing that an Internet company
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530692
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爱德华‧斯诺登：
此时此刻，美国的网络公司
此时此刻，美国的网络公司
09:06
in America can do today, right now,
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可以做的是，
09:09
without consulting with lawyers,
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1442
无须与律师咨询，
09:11
to protect the rights of users worldwide,
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保障全球范围内用户的权利，
09:14
is to enable SSL web encryption
212
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在用户造访的每个网页
09:19
on every page you visit.
213
547799
2005
开启加密套接字协议层。
09:22
The reason this matters is today,
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其重要的原因在于，
09:24
if you go to look at a copy of "1984" on Amazon.com,
215
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5238
如果你在亚马逊网站上看1984
（译者注：英国作家乔治‧奥威尔的著作），
（译者注：英国作家乔治‧奥威尔的著作），
09:30
the NSA can see a record of that,
216
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2447
国安局可以看到这份浏览记录，
09:32
the Russian intelligence service
can see a record of that,
can see a record of that,
217
560431
2219
俄罗斯的情报机构
可以看到这份浏览记录，
可以看到这份浏览记录，
09:34
the Chinese service can see a record of that,
218
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2457
中国的情报机关也能看到这份浏览记录，
09:37
the French service, the German service,
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1898
法国的情报机构，德国的情报机构，
09:39
the services of Andorra.
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安道尔共和国的情报机构也能看到。
09:40
They can all see it because it's unencrypted.
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这些机构都能看到这份浏览记录，
因为它没有被加密保护起来。
因为它没有被加密保护起来。
09:43
The world's library is Amazon.com,
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3600
亚马逊网站是世界图书馆，
09:47
but not only do they not
support encryption by default,
support encryption by default,
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但亚马逊既没有默认支持加密保护，
09:50
you cannot choose to use encryption
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用户个人在浏览书籍的时候，
09:52
when browsing through books.
225
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也无法选择使用加密保护。
09:53
This is something that we need to change,
226
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1709
我们需要改变，
09:55
not just for Amazon, I don't mean to single them out,
227
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1875
不只是亚马逊，
我并不是想针对它，
我并不是想针对它，
09:57
but they're a great example.
228
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1492
但不得不说，它是个好例子。
09:59
All companies need to move
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1668
所有的公司需要
10:00
to an encrypted browsing habit by default
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默认加密保护
所有用户的浏览记录，
所有用户的浏览记录，
10:04
for all users who haven't taken any action
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2484
保护那些没有安装任何加密措施
10:06
or picked any special methods on their own.
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2261
或没有设置特殊选择的用户。
10:08
That'll increase the privacy and the rights
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596635
2311
这将会加强隐私保护和
10:11
that people enjoy worldwide.
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2765
全球人民所应当享有的权利。
10:13
CA: Ed, come with me to this part of the stage.
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克里斯‧安德森：爱德华，
跟我一起来到舞台的这边，
跟我一起来到舞台的这边，
10:16
I want to show you the next slide here. (Applause)
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我想展示下一张幻灯片。（鼓掌）
10:19
This is a program called Boundless Informant.
237
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2708
这个项目名叫“无限线人”。
10:22
What is that?
238
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1676
那是什么？
10:23
ES: So, I've got to give credit to the NSA
239
611526
2180
爱德华‧斯诺登：
我想要感谢国安局
我想要感谢国安局
10:25
for using appropriate names on this.
240
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2443
为它们自己的这个项目
起了合适的名字。
起了合适的名字。
10:28
This is one of my favorite NSA cryptonyms.
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3845
这是我最喜欢的国安局假名。
10:32
Boundless Informant
242
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“无限线人”
10:33
is a program that the NSA hid from Congress.
243
621464
2850
是国安局隐瞒国会的一个项目。
10:36
The NSA was previously asked by Congress,
244
624314
2409
之前，国会曾问过国家安全局，
10:38
was there any ability that they had
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626723
2213
有没有任何方法
10:41
to even give a rough ballpark estimate
246
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3758
能够给一个大概的估算，
10:44
of the amount of American communications
247
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2186
估算出美国的通讯
10:47
that were being intercepted.
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2134
有多少是被窃听的。
10:49
They said no. They said, we don't track those stats,
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3031
他们说没有。他们说，
我们不会追踪那些数据，
我们不会追踪那些数据，
10:52
and we can't track those stats.
250
640045
1549
并且我们也不能
追踪那些数据。
追踪那些数据。
10:53
We can't tell you how many communications
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3104
我们无法告诉你们，
10:56
we're intercepting around the world,
252
644698
1463
我们在全球范围内
正在窃听多少通讯资料，
正在窃听多少通讯资料，
10:58
because to tell you that would be
253
646161
1487
因为如果告知你们的这个行为
10:59
to invade your privacy.
254
647648
3307
是侵犯你们隐私的。
11:03
Now, I really appreciate that sentiment from them,
255
650955
2215
现在，我非常感谢他们的节操，
11:05
but the reality, when you look at this slide is,
256
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2135
但现实是，你看到的这张幻灯片，
11:07
not only do they have the capability,
257
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1653
不仅说明了他们有这样的能力，
11:09
the capability already exists.
258
656958
2616
这样的能力早已存在了。
11:11
It's already in place.
259
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1674
已经在实施了。
11:13
The NSA has its own internal data format
260
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3148
国安局有自己的内部数据格式，
11:16
that tracks both ends of a communication,
261
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4149
能够追踪通讯的两端，
11:20
and if it says,
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1282
如果显示，
11:22
this communication came from America,
263
669827
2026
通讯是源自美国本土的，
11:24
they can tell Congress how
many of those communications
many of those communications
264
671853
2356
他们可以告知国会，
有多少通讯信息
有多少通讯信息
11:26
they have today, right now.
265
674209
2516
此时此刻在他们掌握之中。
11:28
And what Boundless Informant tells us
266
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2971
“无限线人”这个项目告诉我们，
11:31
is more communications are being intercepted
267
679696
2726
被国安局窃听的通讯信息，
11:34
in America about Americans
268
682422
2973
多发生在美国本土，
就在美国人民之间。
就在美国人民之间。
11:37
than there are in Russia about Russians.
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685395
3420
比窃听到的在俄罗斯的
俄罗斯人的通讯情报要多。
俄罗斯人的通讯情报要多。
11:41
I'm not sure that's what an intelligence agency
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1865
我不认为情报机关
11:42
should be aiming for.
271
690680
2319
应该以窃听本土民众通讯为目标。
11:45
CA: Ed, there was a story broken
in the Washington Post,
in the Washington Post,
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2406
克里斯‧安德森：爱德华，
华盛顿邮报又爆出了新的故事，
华盛顿邮报又爆出了新的故事，
11:47
again from your data.
273
695405
1722
还是从你提供的数据。
11:49
The headline says,
274
697127
1679
其标题称，
11:51
"NSA broke privacy rules
275
698806
1497
“美国国家安全局每年
11:52
thousands of times per year."
276
700303
2030
违反隐私条例数千次。”
11:54
Tell us about that.
277
702333
1538
请谈一谈你的观点。
11:56
ES: We also heard in Congressional
testimony last year,
testimony last year,
278
703871
2593
爱德华‧斯诺登：
去年的国会证言也提到过，
去年的国会证言也提到过，
11:58
it was an amazing thing for someone like me
279
706464
1937
这太令人吃惊了，
12:00
who came from the NSA
280
708401
1704
像我这样为国安局工作的人，
12:02
and who's seen the actual internal documents,
281
710105
2572
看过这些真实内部资料的人，
12:04
knows what's in them,
282
712677
2591
知道事情内幕的人，
12:07
to see officials testifying under oath
283
715268
2540
看到官员们誓称
12:10
that there had been no abuses,
284
717808
1882
没有滥用权力，
12:11
that there had been no violations of the NSA's rules,
285
719690
3633
没有违反国安局的条例，
12:15
when we knew this story was coming.
286
723323
2941
那时已经知晓
这一切即将被公诸于世。
这一切即将被公诸于世。
12:18
But what's especially interesting about this,
287
726264
2088
但是，特别有趣的事实是，
12:20
about the fact that the NSA has violated
288
728352
2048
美国国家安全局违反了
12:22
their own rules, their own laws
289
730400
2368
他们自己的条例，自己的法律
12:24
thousands of times in a single year,
290
732768
2673
一年中高达数千次，
12:27
including one event by itself,
291
735441
2727
包括自身的一个事件，
12:30
one event out of those 2,776,
292
738168
4976
2776件中的一个，
12:35
that affected more than 3,000 people.
293
743144
2306
影响了超过3000个人。
12:37
In another event, they intercepted
294
745450
1839
在另一事件中，
12:39
all the calls in Washington, D.C., by accident.
295
747289
4212
他们无意中窃听了
华盛顿特区的所有电话。
华盛顿特区的所有电话。
12:43
What's amazing about this,
296
751501
2237
令人惊讶的是，
12:45
this report, that didn't get that much attention,
297
753738
2208
这份报告，并没有得到
很大程度的关注，
很大程度的关注，
12:48
is the fact that not only were there 2,776 abuses,
298
755946
4861
因为事实上，
远不止那2776起滥用职权，
远不止那2776起滥用职权，
12:53
the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,
299
760807
2141
参议院情报委员会主席，
12:55
Dianne Feinstein, had not seen this report
300
762948
3987
丹妮·费恩斯坦，
在华盛顿邮报联系她
在华盛顿邮报联系她
12:59
until the Washington Post contacted her
301
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3191
请她就此事做出评论前，
13:02
asking for comment on the report.
302
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2448
她还未看过这份报告。
13:04
And she then requested a copy from the NSA
303
772574
1893
随后她向国安局索取了这份材料，
13:06
and received it,
304
774467
1701
她收到了，
13:08
but had never seen this before that.
305
776168
2027
但她此前从未见过这份材料。
13:10
What does that say about the state of oversight
306
778195
2687
这意味着什么呢？
美国情报机关
美国情报机关
13:13
in American intelligence
307
780882
1737
得到了怎样的监管？
13:14
when the chairman of the
Senate Intelligence Committee
Senate Intelligence Committee
308
782619
1788
甚至连参议院情报委员会主席
13:16
has no idea that the rules are being broken
309
784407
2793
都不知道每年这些规则
13:19
thousands of times every year?
310
787200
2160
都被破坏了数千次？
13:21
CA: Ed, one response to this whole debate is this:
311
789360
3629
克里斯·安德森：爱德华，
对于这整场辩论的一个回应这样说道：
对于这整场辩论的一个回应这样说道：
13:25
Why should we care about
312
792989
2665
老实说，我们为什么
13:27
all this surveillance, honestly?
313
795654
1468
要在乎这样的监督？
13:29
I mean, look, if you've done nothing wrong,
314
797122
2152
我的意思是，如果你没做坏事，
13:31
you've got nothing to worry about.
315
799274
2784
你就不值得对此感到担忧。
13:34
What's wrong with that point of view?
316
802058
2292
这样的观点有怎样的错误？
13:36
ES: Well, so the first thing is,
317
804350
1648
爱德华·斯诺登：首先，
13:38
you're giving up your rights.
318
805998
1713
你放弃了自己的权利。
13:39
You're saying hey, you know,
319
807711
1358
你说，嘿，你知道，
13:41
I don't think I'm going to need them,
320
809069
2372
我不认为自己需要这样的权利，
13:43
so I'm just going to trust that, you know,
321
811441
1682
所以我决定信任他们，
13:45
let's get rid of them, it doesn't really matter,
322
813123
2978
无所谓，没关系，
13:48
these guys are going to do the right thing.
323
816101
1974
这些人（国安局）在做正确的事。
13:50
Your rights matter
324
818075
1859
你的权利是重要的，
13:52
because you never know when
you're going to need them.
you're going to need them.
325
819934
2842
因为你永远不知道，
在未来的某个时刻，
你很可能需要这样的权利。
在未来的某个时刻，
你很可能需要这样的权利。
13:54
Beyond that, it's a part of our cultural identity,
326
822776
2282
除此之外，这是我们
文化认同的一个组成部分，
文化认同的一个组成部分，
13:57
not just in America,
327
825058
2132
不只在美国，
13:59
but in Western societies
328
827190
1591
而是在整个西方社会
14:00
and in democratic societies around the world.
329
828781
2962
还有全球范围内的民主社会。
14:03
People should be able to pick up the phone
330
831743
2404
人们应该能够拿起电话
14:06
and to call their family,
331
834147
1454
打给他们的家人，
14:07
people should be able to send a text message
332
835601
1999
人们应该能够发短信
14:09
to their loved ones,
333
837600
1128
给他们的爱人，
14:10
people should be able to buy a book online,
334
838728
2454
人们应该能够在网上买书，
14:13
they should be able to travel by train,
335
841182
1790
人们应该能够乘坐火车去旅行，
14:15
they should be able to buy an airline ticket
336
842972
2217
人们应该能够去买机票，
14:17
without wondering about how these events
337
845189
1737
而不需要想着，这些行为
14:19
are going to look to an agent of the government,
338
846926
3685
将会被政府的机构监察，
14:22
possibly not even your government
339
850611
2590
说不定在未来
14:25
years in the future,
340
853201
1755
这些监察你的
甚至都不是你的政府，
甚至都不是你的政府，
14:27
how they're going to be misinterpreted
341
854956
1740
他们将会怎样曲解
14:28
and what they're going to think your intentions were.
342
856696
2784
他们会怎样揣测你的意图。
14:31
We have a right to privacy.
343
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2074
我们有隐私权。
14:33
We require warrants to be based on probable cause
344
861554
3618
我们需要正当的理由，合理的根据，
14:37
or some kind of individualized suspicion
345
865172
2464
或者比方说窃听某些个别的嫌疑人，
14:39
because we recognize that trusting anybody,
346
867636
4527
因为我们意识到，相信他人，
14:44
any government authority,
347
872163
1594
任何政府机构，
14:45
with the entirety of human communications
348
873757
3084
将通讯的全部内容交予他们，
14:49
in secret and without oversight
349
876841
2433
在秘密地，不被监管的情况下，
14:51
is simply too great a temptation to be ignored.
350
879274
4844
实在是无法忽略的诱惑。
14:56
CA: Some people are furious at what you've done.
351
884118
2559
克里斯‧安德森：有些人
对你所做的一切感到暴怒。
对你所做的一切感到暴怒。
14:58
I heard a quote recently from Dick Cheney
352
886677
2839
我最近听说，迪克‧切尼说道，
（美国副总统 2001-2009）
（美国副总统 2001-2009）
15:01
who said that Julian Assange was a flea bite,
353
889516
5892
朱利安‧阿桑奇所做的事
（维基解密）仅能称作跳蚤叮咬，
（维基解密）仅能称作跳蚤叮咬，
15:07
Edward Snowden is the lion
that bit the head off the dog.
that bit the head off the dog.
354
895408
3422
而爱德华‧斯诺登则是
把狗头咬掉的狮子。
把狗头咬掉的狮子。
15:11
He thinks you've committed
355
898830
1553
他认为，你所做的是
15:12
one of the worst acts of betrayal
356
900383
2292
美国历史上
15:14
in American history.
357
902675
2106
最恶劣的叛国罪。
15:16
What would you say to people who think that?
358
904781
4356
你要对持有这样观点的人
做出怎样的回应呢？
做出怎样的回应呢？
15:23
ES: Dick Cheney's really something else.
359
910975
2205
爱德华‧斯诺登：
迪克‧切尼可真了不起。
迪克‧切尼可真了不起。
15:25
(Laughter) (Applause)
360
913180
6797
（笑声）（掌声）
15:32
Thank you. (Laughter)
361
920476
4902
谢谢。（笑声）
15:37
I think it's amazing, because at the time
362
925378
2476
我认为这很惊人，因为当
15:40
Julian Assange was doing some of his greatest work,
363
927854
3775
朱利安‧阿桑奇做那些伟大工作的时候，
15:43
Dick Cheney was saying
364
931629
1436
迪克‧切尼曾说
15:45
he was going to end governments worldwide,
365
933065
2430
阿桑奇会让世界范围内的政府终结，
15:47
the skies were going to ignite
366
935495
2905
天空会被点燃
15:50
and the seas were going to boil off,
367
938400
2136
海洋会蒸发消失，
15:52
and now he's saying it's a flea bite.
368
940536
2218
现在他又说阿桑奇的行为
只是跳蚤叮咬。
只是跳蚤叮咬。
15:54
So we should be suspicious about the same sort of
369
942754
2513
所以我们应该对于这种
15:57
overblown claims of damage to national security
370
945267
4193
过分宣扬国家安全易受到破坏
16:01
from these kind of officials.
371
949460
1685
的政府官员保持怀疑。
16:03
But let's assume that these
people really believe this.
people really believe this.
372
951145
6849
但是，让我们假设，
这类人真的坚信这样的想法。
这类人真的坚信这样的想法。
16:10
I would argue that they have kind of
373
957994
2230
我想他们对于国家安全
16:12
a narrow conception of national security.
374
960224
4370
有一个非常狭隘的概念。
16:16
The prerogatives of people like Dick Cheney
375
964594
3216
像迪克‧切尼这样有特权的人，
16:20
do not keep the nation safe.
376
967841
2981
没有保障国家的安全。
16:23
The public interest is not always the same
377
970822
4033
公众利益并不永远和
16:27
as the national interest.
378
974855
2435
国家利益保持一致。
16:29
Going to war with people who are not our enemy
379
977290
3894
与那些不是我们敌人的人
进行战争，
进行战争，
16:33
in places that are not a threat
380
981184
2130
战争的地点也
不对我国形成任何威胁，
不对我国形成任何威胁，
16:35
doesn't make us safe,
381
983314
2167
这并没有让人民更加安全，
16:37
and that applies whether it's in Iraq
382
985481
2167
这个道理适用于伊拉克战争
16:39
or on the Internet.
383
987648
1767
和互联网上的监听行为。
16:41
The Internet is not the enemy.
384
989415
1523
互联网不是敌人。
16:43
Our economy is not the enemy.
385
990938
2025
我们的经济不是敌人。
16:45
American businesses, Chinese businesses,
386
992963
2286
美国的商业活动，
中国的商业活动，
中国的商业活动，
16:47
and any other company out there
387
995249
4571
那些商业公司
16:52
is a part of our society.
388
999820
2431
是我们社会的一个部分。
16:54
It's a part of our interconnected world.
389
1002251
2214
这是我们全球范围交流的
一个组成部分。
一个组成部分。
16:56
There are ties of fraternity that bond us together,
390
1004465
4445
这些连结就像互助会一样，
把我们联系在一起，
把我们联系在一起，
17:01
and if we destroy these bonds
391
1008910
2668
如果我们摧毁这些纽带
17:03
by undermining the standards, the security,
392
1011578
3155
以毁坏标准，安全，
17:06
the manner of behavior,
393
1014733
2857
行为方式，
17:09
that nations and citizens all around the world
394
1017590
2951
上述这些正是全世界
其它国家和公民
其它国家和公民
17:12
expect us to abide by.
395
1020541
2377
期待美国能够遵守的准则。
17:15
CA: But it's alleged that you've stolen
396
1022918
3702
克里斯‧安德森：
但是，据说你窃取了
但是，据说你窃取了
17:18
1.7 million documents.
397
1026620
1899
一百七十多万份资料。
17:20
It seems only a few hundred of them
398
1028519
1827
至今，看似只有其中数百份文件
17:22
have been shared with journalists so far.
399
1030346
2857
是分享给记者们的。
17:25
Are there more revelations to come?
400
1033203
3045
是不是未来还会有
更多的揭秘呢？
更多的揭秘呢？
17:28
ES: There are absolutely more revelations to come.
401
1036248
2442
爱德华‧斯诺登：未来
绝对会有更多的揭秘。
绝对会有更多的揭秘。
17:30
I don't think there's any question
402
1038690
2801
我认为一些最重要的
17:33
that some of the most important reporting
403
1041491
4247
必须要揭露的材料
17:37
to be done is yet to come.
404
1045738
4740
仍旧尚未公布。
17:42
CA: Come here, because I want to ask you
405
1050478
2062
克里斯‧安德森：
来这边，我想要问你
来这边，我想要问你
17:44
about this particular revelation.
406
1052540
1527
有关此特定的启示。
17:46
Come and take a look at this.
407
1054067
3022
过来看看这个。
17:49
I mean, this is a story which I think
for a lot of the techies in this room
for a lot of the techies in this room
408
1057089
3248
这是一个故事，我觉得
对很多在这个房间里面的技术员来说
对很多在这个房间里面的技术员来说
17:52
is the single most shocking thing
409
1060337
1739
是过去的几个月中听到
17:54
that they have heard in the last few months.
410
1062076
2360
最令人震惊的事情。
17:56
It's about a program called "Bullrun."
411
1064436
2625
这个项目叫做“布尔溪”。
17:59
Can you explain what that is?
412
1067061
3776
你能解释一下什么是吗？
18:03
ES: So Bullrun, and this is again
413
1070837
1708
爱德华‧斯诺登： 布尔溪，
（译注：美国南北战争始于布尔溪战役）
（译注：美国南北战争始于布尔溪战役）
18:04
where we've got to thank the NSA for their candor,
414
1072545
7097
这里我们再次感谢
国安局将此事开诚布公，
国安局将此事开诚布公，
18:11
this is a program named after a Civil War battle.
415
1079642
4590
这个程序以一次内战名字命名。
18:16
The British counterpart is called Edgehill,
416
1084232
1613
英国人称之为刀锋山，
（译注：第一次英国内战开始于刀锋山战役）
（译注：第一次英国内战开始于刀锋山战役）
18:18
which is a U.K. civil war battle.
417
1085845
1475
这是英国内战战场。
18:19
And the reason that I believe they're named this way
418
1087320
2207
因此，我认为他们的这种命名方式
18:21
is because they target our own infrastructure.
419
1089527
3489
是由于他们的目标是国内设施。
18:25
They're programs through which the NSA
420
1093016
2691
这些程序是国安局
18:27
intentionally misleads corporate partners.
421
1095707
4215
故意误导合作的企业伙伴的。
18:32
They tell corporate partners that these
422
1099922
1882
他们告诉合作企业伙伴
18:34
are safe standards.
423
1101804
1675
这是符合安全标准的。
18:35
They say hey, we need to work with you
424
1103479
2019
他们说，嗨，让我们一起工作
18:37
to secure your systems,
425
1105498
3653
以确保你的系统安全，
18:41
but in reality, they're giving bad advice
426
1109151
3193
但事实上，他们给予的建议
非常糟糕，
非常糟糕，
18:44
to these companies that makes them
427
1112344
1266
使得这些公司
18:45
degrade the security of their services.
428
1113610
2295
降低了其服务的安全性。
18:48
They're building in backdoors that not only
429
1115905
2329
他们搭建的程序后门
18:50
the NSA can exploit,
430
1118234
2358
不仅国安局可以进入，
18:52
but anyone else who has time and money
431
1120592
2521
任何其他有钱有闲的人
18:55
to research and find it
432
1123113
2120
都能研究并搜索到。
18:57
can then use to let themselves in
433
1125233
2134
使得他们自己
18:59
to the world's communications.
434
1127367
1870
能够进入全球通信平台。
19:01
And this is really dangerous,
435
1129237
1770
这是很危险的，
19:03
because if we lose a single standard,
436
1131007
4184
因为当我们失去一个
单一标准的时候，
单一标准的时候，
19:07
if we lose the trust of something like SSL,
437
1135191
3059
如果我们失去对
加密套接字协议层(SSL)的信任，
加密套接字协议层(SSL)的信任，
19:10
which was specifically targeted
438
1138250
1482
这正是
19:11
by the Bullrun program,
439
1139732
2123
布尔溪项目的主要目标，
19:14
we will live a less safe world overall.
440
1141855
2668
我们将生活在不那么安全的世界。
19:16
We won't be able to access our banks
441
1144523
2107
我们不能够访问我们的银行
19:18
and we won't be able to access commerce
442
1146630
5253
我们不能够从事商务活动
19:24
without worrying about people
monitoring those communications
monitoring those communications
443
1151883
2823
而无需担心有人监测这些通信
19:26
or subverting them for their own ends.
444
1154706
2178
或根据他们自己的目的而改变这些通信。
19:29
CA: And do those same decisions also potentially
445
1156884
4069
克里斯‧安德森：那么
这样的决定是否可能
这样的决定是否可能
19:33
open America up to cyberattacks
446
1160953
2986
会将美国网络置于危险境地，
19:36
from other sources?
447
1163939
3916
开放给来自其它源头的攻击吗？
19:40
ES: Absolutely.
448
1167855
1465
爱德华‧斯诺登： 绝对是这样。
19:41
One of the problems,
449
1169320
1732
其中一个问题，
19:43
one of the dangerous legacies
450
1171052
3450
最危险的结果之一
19:46
that we've seen in the post-9/11 era,
451
1174502
3492
我们已经看到在后911时代，
19:50
is that the NSA has traditionally worn two hats.
452
1177994
4237
国安局传统上来说有两个责任。
19:54
They've been in charge of offensive operations,
453
1182231
1926
他们一直负责进攻性行动，
19:56
that is hacking,
454
1184157
1121
也就是黑客入侵，
19:57
but they've also been in
charge of defensive operations,
charge of defensive operations,
455
1185278
2710
但它们也一直负责防御行动
20:00
and traditionally they've always prioritized
456
1187988
2363
传统上他们习惯于总是优先
20:02
defense over offense
457
1190351
1387
采用防御手段，
20:03
based on the principle
458
1191738
1390
其所基于的原则是，
20:05
that American secrets are simply worth more.
459
1193128
2816
美国机密有更高的价值。
20:08
If we hack a Chinese business
460
1195944
2110
如果我们侵入中国商业系统
20:10
and steal their secrets,
461
1198054
1684
偷盗他们的秘密，
20:11
if we hack a government office in Berlin
462
1199738
2083
如果我们侵入柏林某个政府办事处
20:14
and steal their secrets,
463
1201821
2098
偷盗了他们的秘密，
20:16
that has less value to the American people
464
1203919
3607
这对美国人来说价值不高，
20:19
than making sure that the Chinese
465
1207526
2100
更重要的是确保中国
20:21
can't get access to our secrets.
466
1209626
2506
无法发掘到我们的秘密。
20:24
So by reducing the security of our communications,
467
1212132
4131
这样降低了我们的通信安全系数，
20:28
they're not only putting the world at risk,
468
1216263
2028
他们不仅把全球网络置于风险中，
20:30
they're putting America at risk in a fundamental way,
469
1218291
2272
并且把美国置于风险中，
20:32
because intellectual property is the basis,
470
1220563
2671
因为知识产权是基本，
20:35
the foundation of our economy,
471
1223234
1927
是经济的基础，
20:37
and if we put that at risk through weak security,
472
1225161
2258
如果因为安全薄弱
而把知识产权置于危险境地，
而把知识产权置于危险境地，
20:39
we're going to be paying for it for years.
473
1227419
1629
我们会为此而付出多年的代价。
20:41
CA: But they've made a calculation
474
1229048
1547
克里斯‧安德森:
但是他们做了一个计算
但是他们做了一个计算
20:42
that it was worth doing this
475
1230595
2191
认为这是值得的
20:44
as part of America's defense against terrorism.
476
1232786
3539
作为美国反恐的一部分。
20:48
Surely that makes it a price worth paying.
477
1236325
3612
当然，使得这成为值得付出的代价。
20:52
ES: Well, when you look at the results
478
1239937
3887
爱德华‧斯诺登：嗯，当你看看
20:56
of these programs in stopping terrorism,
479
1243824
2307
这些程序在阻止恐怖主义活动中
所发挥的作用，
所发挥的作用，
20:58
you will see that that's unfounded,
480
1246131
3750
你会发现，这是毫无根据的，
21:02
and you don't have to take my word for it,
481
1249881
1919
你不必相信我的话，
21:04
because we've had the first open court,
482
1251800
3772
因为我们有过第一次公开法庭，
21:07
the first federal court that's reviewed this,
483
1255572
2369
第一联邦法院审查了这一点，
21:10
outside the secrecy arrangement,
484
1257941
2796
超出保密协议，
21:12
called these programs Orwellian
485
1260737
1987
这些程序被称为奥威尔，
21:14
and likely unconstitutional.
486
1262724
2234
并且这有可能违反了宪法。
21:17
Congress, who has access
487
1264958
2739
国会有权涉入
21:19
to be briefed on these things,
488
1267697
1311
要求国安局介绍解释这些事情，
21:21
and now has the desire to be,
489
1269008
2982
现在希望去
21:24
has produced bills to reform it,
490
1271990
2407
起草条例草案审议并进行改革，
21:26
and two independent White House panels
491
1274397
2885
并且有两个独立的白宫评审会议
21:29
who reviewed all of the classified evidence
492
1277282
2090
审查了所有机密证据，
21:31
said these programs have never stopped
493
1279372
2633
指出这些行动从来没有阻止过
21:34
a single terrorist attack
494
1282005
1761
任何一次即将在美国
21:35
that was imminent in the United States.
495
1283766
3503
发生的恐怖袭击。
21:39
So is it really terrorism that we're stopping?
496
1287269
3186
我们真的成功阻止了恐怖主义吗？
21:42
Do these programs have any value at all?
497
1290455
2331
这些程序具有任何价值吗？
21:44
I say no, and all three branches
498
1292786
2244
我认为没有，
21:47
of the American government say no as well.
499
1295030
2432
美国政府中的三个部门也说没有。
21:49
CA: I mean, do you think there's a deeper motivation
500
1297462
1813
克里斯‧安德森：
我的意思是，你认为有一个
我的意思是，你认为有一个
21:51
for them than the war against terrorism?
501
1299275
3285
比反恐战争更深层的动机吗？
21:54
ES: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, say again?
502
1302560
1550
爱德华‧斯诺登： 很抱歉，
我没听清，你能再说一遍吗？
我没听清，你能再说一遍吗？
21:56
CA: Sorry. Do you think there's a deeper motivation
503
1304110
3000
克里斯‧安德森： 抱歉。
你认为有一个更深层的动机，
你认为有一个更深层的动机，
21:59
for them other than the war against terrorism?
504
1307110
3879
除了反恐战争之外的原因吗？
22:03
ES: Yeah. The bottom line is that terrorism
505
1310989
2695
爱德华‧斯诺登：是的。原则上，恐怖主义
22:05
has always been what we in the intelligence world
506
1313684
2201
一直是我们在情报界
22:08
would call a cover for action.
507
1315885
3273
拿来当做采取行动的外壳。
22:11
Terrorism is something that provokes
508
1319158
1925
恐怖主义是具有挑衅性的词语，
22:13
an emotional response that allows people
509
1321083
2230
它使人们产生情绪反应，
22:15
to rationalize authorizing powers and programs
510
1323313
4357
从而合理化授权权力和程序，
22:19
that they wouldn't give otherwise.
511
1327670
2444
这是除恐怖主义外他们不会认同的。
22:22
The Bullrun and Edgehill-type programs,
512
1330114
2486
布尔溪和刀锋山这样的项目，
22:24
the NSA asked for these authorities
513
1332600
1717
国家安全局要求这样的授权
22:26
back in the 1990s.
514
1334317
1937
回到1990年代。
22:28
They asked the FBI to go to
Congress and make the case.
Congress and make the case.
515
1336254
2990
他们要求联邦调查局向国会备案，
22:31
The FBI went to Congress and did make the case.
516
1339244
2174
联邦调查局去到国会备案，
22:33
But Congress and the American people said no.
517
1341418
2565
但国会和美国人民说不要。
22:36
They said, it's not worth the risk to our economy.
518
1343983
2411
他们说，这不值得让
我们的经济去冒险。
我们的经济去冒险。
22:38
They said it's worth too much damage
519
1346394
1919
他们说为得到这些，会对我们的社会
22:40
to our society to justify the gains.
520
1348313
2687
造成过大的伤害。
22:43
But what we saw is, in the post-9/11 era,
521
1351000
4275
但我们看到的是，
在后911时代，
在后911时代，
22:47
they used secrecy and they
used the justification of terrorism
used the justification of terrorism
522
1355275
3251
他们使用保密和以对抗恐怖主义为理由
22:50
to start these programs in secret
523
1358526
1934
秘密启动这些程序，
22:52
without asking Congress,
524
1360460
1812
不过问国会，
22:54
without asking the American people,
525
1362272
2180
不过问美国人民，
22:56
and it's that kind of government behind closed doors
526
1364452
2738
就是那种躲在紧闭大门后的政府
22:59
that we need to guard ourselves against,
527
1367190
2559
人们需要保护自己去反对它，
23:01
because it makes us less safe,
528
1369749
1250
因为它使我们越发危险，
23:03
and it offers no value.
529
1370999
1892
并且没有提供任何价值。
23:05
CA: Okay, come with me here for a sec,
530
1372891
1866
克里斯‧安德森:
好的，请跟我来这儿，
好的，请跟我来这儿，
23:06
because I've got a more personal question for you.
531
1374757
2182
我想要问你一些个人问题。
23:09
Speaking of terror,
532
1376939
2924
说到恐惧，
23:12
most people would find the
situation you're in right now
situation you're in right now
533
1379863
3957
大多数人认为你现在
23:16
in Russia pretty terrifying.
534
1383820
3296
在俄罗斯的处境非常可怕。
23:19
You obviously heard what happened,
535
1387116
3587
你显然听说过曾经发生过的那些事，
23:22
what the treatment that Bradley Manning got,
536
1390703
2193
布拉德利‧曼宁得到了怎样的对待，
23:25
Chelsea Manning as now is,
537
1392896
2281
他现在改名为切尔西‧曼宁，
23:27
and there was a story in Buzzfeed saying that
538
1395177
2487
Buzzfeed 上有这样一个故事，
23:29
there are people in the intelligence community
539
1397664
1658
情报系统的一些人
23:31
who want you dead.
540
1399322
2279
希望你死。
23:33
How are you coping with this?
541
1401601
1940
你要怎样应付？
23:35
How are you coping with the fear?
542
1403541
1949
你怎样应对恐惧？
23:37
ES: It's no mystery
543
1405490
3004
爱德华‧斯诺登：这不奇怪
23:40
that there are governments out
there that want to see me dead.
there that want to see me dead.
544
1408494
5648
很多国家的政府想要我死。
23:46
I've made clear again and again and again
545
1414142
3410
我已经一次又一次地表明
23:49
that I go to sleep every morning
546
1417552
3366
每天早上我去睡觉
23:53
thinking about what I can
do for the American people.
do for the American people.
547
1420918
4560
都想着我可以为美国人民做些什么。
23:57
I don't want to harm my government.
548
1425478
3032
我不想伤害我的政府。
24:00
I want to help my government,
549
1428510
3263
我想要帮助我的政府，
24:03
but the fact that they are willing to
550
1431773
3808
但事实是，他们更愿意
24:07
completely ignore due process,
551
1435581
2320
选择忽视适当程序，
24:10
they're willing to declare guilt
552
1437901
2708
他们选择在没有一次审判的情况下
24:12
without ever seeing a trial,
553
1440609
3286
宣布我有罪，
24:16
these are things that we need to work against
554
1443895
2416
这些都是我们需要联合起来反对的
24:18
as a society, and say hey, this is not appropriate.
555
1446311
3578
告诉他们说，嘿，这是不合理的。
24:22
We shouldn't be threatening dissidents.
556
1449889
1827
我们不应该威胁持不同政见者。
24:23
We shouldn't be criminalizing journalism.
557
1451716
3014
我们现在不应该定为犯罪新闻。
24:26
And whatever part I can do to see that end,
558
1454730
3319
为了尽可能使它结束，
24:30
I'm happy to do despite the risks.
559
1458049
3153
我很高兴这么做，尽管存在风险。
24:33
CA: So I'd actually like to get some feedback
560
1461202
1524
克里斯‧安德森：所以我其实想听到
24:34
from the audience here,
561
1462726
1219
这里观众们的反馈，
24:36
because I know there's widely differing reactions
562
1463945
2104
因为我知道对于爱德华‧斯诺登
24:38
to Edward Snowden.
563
1466049
1941
有很多争议。
24:40
Suppose you had the following two choices, right?
564
1467990
2288
假设您有以下两个选择，好吗？
24:42
You could view what he did
565
1470278
2806
您可以认为他所做的事
24:45
as fundamentally a reckless act
566
1473084
1894
从根本上说是鲁莽的行为，
24:47
that has endangered America
567
1474978
3219
将美国置于危险境地，
24:50
or you could view it as fundamentally a heroic act
568
1478197
3563
或者你认为它是英勇的行为，
24:53
that will work towards America and the world's
569
1481760
3475
将对美国以及全世界
24:57
long-term good?
570
1485235
1387
带来长远的利好？
24:58
Those are the two choices I'll give you.
571
1486622
3318
这是我给你的两个选择。
25:02
I'm curious to see who's willing to vote with
572
1489940
2155
我很好奇，谁愿意投一票
25:04
the first of those,
573
1492095
1417
给第一种，
25:05
that this was a reckless act?
574
1493512
3409
认为这是一种鲁莽的行为?
25:09
There are some hands going up.
575
1496921
1655
我看到有手举起来了。
25:10
Some hands going up.
576
1498576
1384
又有一些人举起了手。
25:12
It's hard to put your hand up
577
1499960
1276
当这个人站在这里的时候
25:13
when the man is standing right here,
578
1501236
2111
很难举手，
25:15
but I see them.
579
1503347
1565
但我看到他们。
25:17
ES: I can see you. (Laughter)
580
1504912
2531
爱德华‧斯诺登：
我能看到你哦。（笑声）
我能看到你哦。（笑声）
25:19
CA: And who goes with the second choice,
581
1507443
2261
克里斯‧安德森：谁选择第二项，
25:21
the fundamentally heroic act?
582
1509704
1883
从根本上说英雄行为？
25:23
(Applause) (Cheers)
583
1511587
2647
（掌声）(欢呼)
25:26
And I think it's true to say that
there are a lot of people
there are a lot of people
584
1514234
2574
事实上，有很多人
25:29
who didn't show a hand and I think
585
1516808
2225
并没有举手，我认为
25:31
are still thinking this through,
586
1519033
1710
他们都还在思考这件事，
25:32
because it seems to me that the debate around you
587
1520743
3458
在我看来，围绕你的辩论
25:36
doesn't split along traditional political lines.
588
1524201
3109
不会跟随传统政治逻辑。
25:39
It's not left or right, it's not really about
589
1527310
2254
它不左亦不右，它不是关于
25:41
pro-government, libertarian, or not just that.
590
1529564
4122
亲政府、自由主义论者，或其他的什么。
25:45
Part of it is almost a generational issue.
591
1533686
2713
它几乎可以算是一代人的问题。
25:48
You're part of a generation that grew up
592
1536399
1808
你是和互联网共同成长的
25:50
with the Internet, and it seems as if
593
1538207
2926
那代人之一，似乎
25:53
you become offended at almost a visceral level
594
1541133
3208
你感到被强烈地冒犯到了
25:56
when you see something done
595
1544341
1296
当你看到某些事
25:57
that you think will harm the Internet.
596
1545637
2062
会损害互联网的时候。
25:59
Is there some truth to that?
597
1547699
3573
是这样的吗？
26:03
ES: It is. I think it's very true.
598
1551272
5048
爱德华‧斯诺登： 是。非常正确。
26:08
This is not a left or right issue.
599
1556320
3098
这不是左或右的问题。
26:11
Our basic freedoms, and when I say our,
600
1559418
2577
我们的基本自由，当我说“我们”，
我指的不仅仅是美国人，
26:14
I don't just mean Americans,
601
1561995
1547
26:15
I mean people around the world,
602
1563542
2013
我是指世界各地的人们，
26:17
it's not a partisan issue.
603
1565555
2346
它不是一个党派问题。
26:20
These are things that all people believe,
604
1567901
2039
这些是人们的共同信仰的信念，
26:22
and it's up to all of us to protect them,
605
1569940
2525
并且应该由我们来保护它，
26:24
and to people who have seen and enjoyed
606
1572465
2832
对那些享受
一个自由开放的网络的人们，
26:27
a free and open Internet,
607
1575297
1661
26:29
it's up to us to preserve that liberty
608
1576958
3226
应该由我们来保护这样的自由
26:32
for the next generation to enjoy,
609
1580184
1905
让我们下一代继续享有，
26:34
and if we don't change things,
610
1582089
1865
如果我们不做出改变，
26:36
if we don't stand up to make the changes
611
1583954
3133
如果我们不有所行动做出改变
26:39
we need to do to keep the Internet safe,
612
1587087
3207
我们要努力保持互联网的安全，
26:42
not just for us but for everyone,
613
1590294
2768
不只为自己，而是为每一个人，
否则我们会失去这样的安全和自由，
26:45
we're going to lose that,
614
1593062
1465
26:46
and that would be a tremendous loss,
615
1594527
1253
那就会是一个巨大的损失，
26:47
not just for us, but for the world.
616
1595780
2347
对我们和全世界而言。
26:50
CA: Well, I have heard similar language recently
617
1598127
2073
克里斯‧安德森： 嗯，我最近
从万维网的创始人那里
从万维网的创始人那里
26:52
from the founder of the world wide web,
618
1600200
1848
听到类似的言论，
26:54
who I actually think is with us, Sir Tim Berners-Lee.
619
1602048
4517
他就在会议现场，
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李爵士。
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李爵士。
26:58
Tim, actually, would you like to come up and say,
620
1606565
2704
蒂姆，你愿意过来参与讨论吗？
27:01
do we have a microphone for Tim?
621
1609269
1871
请为蒂姆拿麦克风。
27:03
(Applause)
622
1611140
2367
（掌声）
27:05
Tim, good to see you. Come up there.
623
1613507
7075
蒂姆，很高兴见到你。请来这里。
27:12
Which camp are you in, by the way,
624
1620582
2437
顺便问一句，你站在哪边，
27:15
traitor, hero? I have a theory on this, but --
625
1623019
3500
叛徒、英雄？我有一个理论，但是
27:18
Tim Berners-Lee: I've given much longer
626
1626519
2694
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：我已经给出了
27:21
answers to that question, but hero,
627
1629213
3055
这个问题的答案，英雄，
27:24
if I have to make the choice between the two.
628
1632268
3402
如果我要在这两个之间
作出选择的话。
作出选择的话。
27:27
CA: And Ed, I think you've read
629
1635670
3333
克里斯‧安德森：
爱德华，我想你看过
爱德华，我想你看过
27:31
the proposal that Sir Tim has talked about
630
1639003
2084
蒂姆爵士说到的提案，
27:33
about a new Magna Carta to take back the Internet.
631
1641087
2968
用大宪章夺回互联网。
27:36
Is that something that makes sense?
632
1644055
2102
这样的东西有意义吗？
27:38
ES: Absolutely. I mean, my generation, I grew up
633
1646157
3641
爱德华‧斯诺登： 绝对有。
我的意思是，我这一代
我的意思是，我这一代
27:41
not just thinking about the Internet,
634
1649798
2059
不只是随着互联网一起成长，
27:44
but I grew up in the Internet,
635
1651857
2364
而是成长于互联网，
27:46
and although I never expected to have the chance
636
1654221
4660
虽然我从未想过有机会
27:51
to defend it in such a direct and practical manner
637
1658881
5547
用如此直接又实际的方式
来保卫它，
来保卫它，
27:56
and to embody it in this unusual,
638
1664428
3796
并且以这种不寻常的，
28:00
almost avatar manner,
639
1668224
2129
几乎阿凡达的方式，
28:02
I think there's something poetic about the fact that
640
1670353
2706
我想有些诗意的事是，
28:05
one of the sons of the Internet
641
1673059
1982
互联网的孩子之一
28:07
has actually become close to the Internet
642
1675041
3052
由于他们的政治表达，
28:10
as a result of their political expression.
643
1678093
2486
已实际上和互联网非常亲近了。
28:12
And I believe that a Magna Carta for the Internet
644
1680579
3711
我相信，关于互联网的大宪章
28:16
is exactly what we need.
645
1684290
1962
正是我们所需要的。
28:18
We need to encode our values
646
1686252
3508
我们需要加入我们的价值观，
28:21
not just in writing but in the structure of the Internet,
647
1689760
3347
不只是以书面形式，
也是在互联网的结构方面，
也是在互联网的结构方面，
28:25
and it's something that I hope,
648
1693107
2240
这是我所希望看到的，
28:27
I invite everyone in the audience,
649
1695347
2523
我邀请每位观众，
28:30
not just here in Vancouver but around the world,
650
1697870
3250
不只是在温哥华这里的，
也包括世界各地的人
也包括世界各地的人
28:33
to join and participate in.
651
1701120
2356
加入和参与进来。
28:35
CA: Do you have a question for Ed?
652
1703476
2314
克里斯‧安德森：你还有
什么问题想问爱德华吗？
什么问题想问爱德华吗？
28:37
TBL: Well, two questions,
653
1705790
2030
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李:
嗯，两个问题，
嗯，两个问题，
28:40
a general question —
654
1707820
1124
一个一般的问题——
28:41
CA: Ed, can you still hear us?
655
1708944
1795
克里斯‧安德森：爱德华，
你还能听到我们吗？
你还能听到我们吗？
28:42
ES: Yes, I can hear you.
CA: Oh, he's back.
CA: Oh, he's back.
656
1710739
3516
爱德华‧斯诺登：是，我可以听到。
克里斯‧安德森： 哦，他回来了。
克里斯‧安德森： 哦，他回来了。
28:46
TBL: The wiretap on your line
657
1714255
1595
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：你线上的窃听器
28:48
got a little interfered with for a moment.
658
1715850
1906
这会儿有点儿被干扰了。
28:49
(Laughter)
659
1717756
1653
（笑声）
28:51
ES: It's a little bit of an NSA problem.
660
1719409
2202
爱德华‧斯诺登：
是有点儿国安局的问题。
是有点儿国安局的问题。
28:53
TBL: So, from the 25 years,
661
1721611
3807
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：
那么，从 25 年，
那么，从 25 年，
28:57
stepping back and thinking,
662
1725418
2937
回过头来思考，
29:00
what would you think would be
663
1728355
1746
你认为
29:02
the best that we could achieve
664
1730101
2607
基于现在的讨论，
29:04
from all the discussions that we have
665
1732708
1860
关于想要怎样的网络环境，
29:06
about the web we want?
666
1734568
2893
我们能做到的最好状态是什么？
29:09
ES: When we think about
667
1737461
3372
爱德华‧斯诺登：当我们想到
29:13
in terms of how far we can go,
668
1740833
3113
我们能走多远，
29:16
I think that's a question that's really only limited
669
1743946
2153
我认为这个问题仅仅是关于
29:18
by what we're willing to put into it.
670
1746099
2537
我们愿意投入些什么。
29:20
I think the Internet that we've enjoyed in the past
671
1748636
2957
我想我们过去所享受的互联网
29:23
has been exactly what we as not just a nation
672
1751593
5558
也正是我们作为一个国家的人民
29:29
but as a people around the world need,
673
1757151
3339
和世界各地的人们所需要的，
29:32
and by cooperating, by engaging not just
674
1760490
4226
开展合作，不只是让
29:36
the technical parts of society,
675
1764716
1404
技术部分参与进来，
29:38
but as you said, the users,
676
1766120
2842
而是正如你所说的，用户们，
29:41
the people around the world who contribute
677
1768962
2064
全世界那些使用互联网，
29:43
through the Internet, through social media,
678
1771026
2442
通过互联网，通过社会媒体，
29:45
who just check the weather,
679
1773468
1727
哪怕只是看看天气的人，
29:47
who rely on it every day as a part of their life,
680
1775195
2553
那些将互联网视作生活一部分
依靠互联网度过每一天的人，
依靠互联网度过每一天的人，
29:49
to champion that.
681
1777748
2940
来达到目标。
29:52
We'll get not just the Internet we've had,
682
1780688
2537
我们将得到的不只是
我们已拥有的互联网，
我们已拥有的互联网，
29:55
but a better Internet, a better now,
683
1783225
2949
而是一个更好的互联网，
更好的当下，
更好的当下，
29:58
something that we can use to build a future
684
1786174
4043
我们可以用来建立未来的东西
30:02
that'll be better not just than what we hoped for
685
1790217
2968
比我们所期待的好，
30:05
but anything that we could have imagined.
686
1793185
2385
比我们所能想象的好。
30:07
CA: It's 30 years ago that TED was founded, 1984.
687
1795570
5462
克里斯‧安德森：
TED 创建于 30 年前，1984 年，
TED 创建于 30 年前，1984 年，
30:13
A lot of the conversation since then has been
688
1801032
2005
自那时以来，许多的对话
30:15
along the lines that
689
1803037
2054
是关于
30:17
actually George Orwell got it wrong.
690
1805091
1903
其实，乔治‧奥威尔错了。
30:19
It's not Big Brother watching us.
691
1806994
1719
不是老大哥在看着我们。
30:20
We, through the power of the web,
692
1808713
1614
我们，通过网络的力量，
30:22
and transparency, are now watching Big Brother.
693
1810327
2364
和透明度，正在看着老大哥。
30:24
Your revelations kind of drove a stake
694
1812691
2261
你的揭示正如一个木桩
30:27
through the heart of that rather optimistic view,
695
1814952
3747
穿过乐观看法的心脏，
30:30
but you still believe there's a way of doing something
696
1818699
3420
但你仍然相信有办法
30:34
about that.
697
1822119
1869
对此做出反应。
30:36
And you do too.
698
1823988
1740
你也这样做了。
30:37
ES: Right, so there is an argument to be made
699
1825728
6168
爱德华‧斯诺登：对的，
有这样的说法，
有这样的说法，
30:44
that the powers of Big Brother
have increased enormously.
have increased enormously.
700
1831896
3597
老大哥的权力
得到了大幅度增长。
得到了大幅度增长。
30:47
There was a recent legal article at Yale
701
1835493
4329
耶鲁大学有最近有篇法律文章
30:52
that established something called
the Bankston-Soltani Principle,
the Bankston-Soltani Principle,
702
1839822
3731
建立了 Bankston-Soltani 原则，
30:55
which is that our expectation of privacy is violated
703
1843553
5229
意思是，我们对私隐的期望
在当政府监控能力的
31:00
when the capabilities of government surveillance
704
1848782
1869
31:02
have become cheaper by an order of magnitude,
705
1850651
3195
成本变得越发低廉的时候
被违反了，
被违反了，
31:06
and each time that occurs, we need to revisit
706
1853846
2722
每次发生这类状况时，
我们需要重新审视
我们需要重新审视
31:08
and rebalance our privacy rights.
707
1856568
3053
和重新平衡我们的隐私权利。
31:11
Now, that hasn't happened since
708
1859621
1990
现在，政府的监控权力
31:13
the government's surveillance powers
709
1861611
2098
增加了数个级别，
31:15
have increased by several orders of magnitude,
710
1863709
2780
然而我们什么都没做。
31:18
and that's why we're in the
problem that we're in today,
problem that we're in today,
711
1866489
2974
这就是我们今天
所遇到的问题，
所遇到的问题，
31:21
but there is still hope,
712
1869463
3812
但，仍然是有希望的，
31:25
because the power of individuals
713
1873275
2136
因为个人的力量
31:27
have also been increased by technology.
714
1875411
2607
也因科技得到了增强。
31:30
I am living proof
715
1878018
2001
我就是活生生的例子
31:32
that an individual can go head to head
716
1880019
2162
个人可以去和
31:34
against the most powerful adversaries
717
1882181
2318
全世界范围内
最强大的对手
最强大的对手
31:36
and the most powerful intelligence agencies
718
1884499
2321
最强大的情报机构
31:39
around the world and win,
719
1886820
3760
正面交锋并且赢得胜利，
31:42
and I think that's something
720
1890580
1660
我认为这就是
31:44
that we need to take hope from,
721
1892240
2423
我们希望的来源，
31:46
and we need to build on
722
1894663
1177
我们要继续建立
31:48
to make it accessible not just to technical experts
723
1895840
2437
让从技术专家
31:50
but to ordinary citizens around the world.
724
1898277
2517
世界各地的普通公民
都能访问。
都能访问。
31:52
Journalism is not a crime,
725
1900794
1667
新闻不是一种犯罪，
31:54
communication is not a crime,
726
1902461
1790
沟通不是一种犯罪，
31:56
and we should not be monitored
in our everyday activities.
in our everyday activities.
727
1904251
2944
我们的日常生活不应当被监视。
31:59
CA: I'm not quite sure how
you shake the hand of a bot,
you shake the hand of a bot,
728
1907195
2729
克里斯‧安德森：我不太清楚
如何和你的移动机器人握手，
如何和你的移动机器人握手，
32:02
but I imagine it's, this is the hand right here.
TBL: That'll come very soon.
TBL: That'll come very soon.
729
1909924
5890
但我想象手放在这里。
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：很快就会实现。
蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：很快就会实现。
32:08
ES: Nice to meet you,
730
1915814
1123
爱德华‧斯诺登： 很高兴见到你，
32:09
and I hope my beam looks as nice
731
1916937
2047
我希望我看起来很好，
32:11
as my view of you guys does.
732
1918984
2344
正如我看到你们的样子。
32:13
CA: Thank you, Tim.
733
1921328
2720
克里斯‧安德森： 谢谢你，蒂姆。
32:16
(Applause)
734
1924048
5732
（掌声）
32:21
I mean, The New York Times
recently called for an amnesty for you.
recently called for an amnesty for you.
735
1929780
4052
纽约时报最近呼吁对你大赦。
32:26
Would you welcome the chance
to come back to America?
to come back to America?
736
1933832
4226
你会接受回到美国的机会吗？
32:30
ES: Absolutely. There's really no question,
737
1938058
3885
爱德华‧斯诺登：
绝对。真的没有问题，
绝对。真的没有问题，
32:34
the principles that have been the foundation
738
1941943
2582
这一项目所基于的
32:36
of this project
739
1944525
2393
原则
32:39
have been the public interest
740
1946918
4080
是公众利益
32:43
and the principles that underly
741
1950998
2943
以及那建基于美国以及世界各地
32:46
the journalistic establishment in the United States
742
1953941
3276
新闻业基石
的原则，
32:49
and around the world,
743
1957217
2446
32:51
and I think if the press is now saying,
744
1959663
4845
我觉得如果现在媒体说，
32:56
we support this,
745
1964508
2082
我们支持这些，
32:58
this is something that needed to happen,
746
1966590
2088
这是会发生，
也是需要发生的，
也是需要发生的，
33:00
that's a powerful argument,
but it's not the final argument,
but it's not the final argument,
747
1968678
2644
这是一个有力的论据，
但不是最终论据，
但不是最终论据，
33:03
and I think that's something
that public should decide.
that public should decide.
748
1971322
2713
我认为这是该交由公众决定的。
33:06
But at the same time,
749
1974035
1842
但在同一时间，
33:08
the government has hinted that they want
750
1975877
1546
政府曾暗示他们想要
33:09
some kind of deal,
751
1977423
1844
某种交易，
33:11
that they want me to compromise
752
1979267
2114
他们想让我妥协
33:13
the journalists with which I've been working,
753
1981381
2175
一直以来和我一起工作的记者们
33:15
to come back,
754
1983556
1433
回来，
33:17
and I want to make it very clear
755
1984989
2553
我想要清楚地表明
33:19
that I did not do this to be safe.
756
1987542
2726
我这么做不是为了安全。
33:22
I did this to do what was right,
757
1990268
2268
我做的是正确的事，
33:24
and I'm not going to stop my work
758
1992536
2227
我不会停止我的工作
33:26
in the public interest
759
1994763
1374
放弃公众利益，
33:28
just to benefit myself.
760
1996137
2789
只是为了使自己受益。
33:31
(Applause)
761
1998926
5778
（鼓掌）
33:36
CA: In the meantime,
762
2004704
1919
克里斯‧安德森：与此同时，
33:38
courtesy of the Internet and this technology,
763
2006623
3768
感谢网络和这项科技成果，
33:42
you're here, back in North America,
764
2010391
1650
你在这里，以这种形式，回到了北美，
33:44
not quite the U.S., Canada, in this form.
765
2012041
4016
不是美国，而是加拿大。
33:48
I'm curious, how does that feel?
766
2016057
4894
我很好奇，你感觉怎样？
33:53
ES: Canada is different than what I expected.
767
2020951
2138
爱德华‧斯诺登：
加拿大和我所期待的不同。
加拿大和我所期待的不同。
33:55
It's a lot warmer.
768
2023089
2125
温暖多了。
33:57
(Laughter)
769
2025214
5707
（笑声）
34:03
CA: At TED, the mission is "ideas worth spreading."
770
2030921
3256
克里斯‧安德森：在 TED，
我们的宗旨是“值得传播的思想”，
我们的宗旨是“值得传播的思想”，
34:06
If you could encapsulate it in a single idea,
771
2034177
2198
如果你能精华到一个想法，
34:08
what is your idea worth spreading
772
2036375
2215
什么是当下你认为
34:10
right now at this moment?
773
2038590
4075
值得传播的思想呢？
34:14
ES: I would say the last year has been a reminder
774
2042665
3650
爱德华‧斯诺登：我想说，
去年发生的事提醒我们
去年发生的事提醒我们
34:18
that democracy may die behind closed doors,
775
2046315
3603
在紧闭的门前，民主也许已经覆灭，
34:22
but we as individuals are born
776
2049918
1904
但我们作为个体
34:24
behind those same closed doors,
777
2051822
2649
在紧闭的门后出生，
34:26
and we don't have to give up
778
2054471
2365
我们没必要为了好的政府
34:29
our privacy to have good government.
779
2056836
3233
而放弃自己的隐私。
34:32
We don't have to give up our liberty
780
2060069
2090
我们没必要为了安全
34:34
to have security.
781
2062159
1779
而放弃我们的自由。
34:36
And I think by working together
782
2063938
2788
并且我认为，通过合作
34:38
we can have both open government
783
2066726
2325
我们可以同时拥有开放的政府
34:41
and private lives,
784
2069051
1937
和私人的生活，
34:43
and I look forward to working with everyone
785
2070988
1773
我想和世界上的每一位共同努力
34:44
around the world to see that happen.
786
2072761
2539
来期待这天的到来。
34:47
Thank you very much.
787
2075300
1338
非常感谢。
34:48
CA: Ed, thank you.
788
2076638
2240
克里斯‧安德森：爱德华，谢谢你。
34:51
(Applause)
789
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8829
（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Edward Snowden - WhistleblowerIn 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet.
Why you should listen
Edward Snowden was just about to turn 28 when his face was suddenly splashed across every major newspaper in the US. In the summer of 2013 The Guardian published a series of leaked documents about the American National Security Agency (NSA), starting with an article about a secret court order demanding American phone records from Verizon, followed by an article on the NSA's top-secret Prism program, said to be accessing user data from Google, Apple and Facebook.
It wasn't long before Snowden came forward as the source, revealing that he had carefully planned the leak, copying documents when he was working as a contractor for the NSA. "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," he said at the time, but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant." Snowden's actions have led to a global debate on the relationship between national security and online privacy. His leaks continue to have a lasting impact on the American public's view of the government, and has encouraged media scrutiny on the NSA.
Snowden had coordinated the leak with journalist Glenn Greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras from Hong Kong; after he revealed his identity, he fled and ended up in Moscow. Under charges of espionage by the American government, Snowden remains in Russia in temporary asylum.
Edward Snowden | Speaker | TED.com