TED Salon Zebra Technologies
Roy Bahat and Bryn Freedman: What is the meaning of work?
羅伊 · 巴哈特 與 布萊恩 · 傅利曼: 工作的意義的什麼？
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羅伊 · 巴哈特很擔心。 他的公司投資了像是提高企業效的人工智慧的新科技；但是他想知道，人工智慧對那些可能會因此改變工作的人們，被取代的工作或變得不那麼充實的工作所造成的影響？ 這個問題讓他進行了為期兩年的研究，以發現人們的動機以及我們工作的原因。 在與策展人布萊恩 · 傅利曼的對話中，他分享了他所發現和了解到的一些令人驚訝的見解，這些見解將會影響我們對未來工作的談討。
Roy Bahat - Venture capitalist
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Bryn Freedman: You're a guy whose company
funds these AI programs and invests.
funds these AI programs and invests.
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BF：你的公司資助這些
人工智慧專案和投資。
人工智慧專案和投資。
00:18
So why should we trust you
to not have a bias
to not have a bias
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所以我們如何相信你不會帶著偏見
00:23
and tell us something really useful
for the rest of us
for the rest of us
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告訴我們這些很受用的
00:26
about the future of work?
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有關未來的工作前景？
RB：是的，我是。
00:29
Roy Bahat: Yes, I am.
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00:30
And when you wake up in the morning
and you read the newspaper
and you read the newspaper
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當你早晨醒來看到新聞說：
「機器人即將來臨，
可能會取代我們所有人的工作，」
可能會取代我們所有人的工作，」
00:33
and it says, "The robots are coming,
they may take all our jobs,"
they may take all our jobs,"
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身為一位專注在未來工作的
初創企業投資人，
初創企業投資人，
00:37
as a start-up investor
focused on the future of work,
focused on the future of work,
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我們的基金是最先
00:39
our fund was the first one to say
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00:41
artificial intelligence
should be a focus for us.
should be a focus for us.
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聚焦在人工智慧上的。
所以我某天醒來看到那則新聞便說：
00:44
So I woke up one morning
and read that and said,
and read that and said,
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「哦，我的天，他們說的是我。
那是我正在做的事。」
那是我正在做的事。」
00:46
"Oh, my gosh, they're talking about me.
That's me who's doing that."
That's me who's doing that."
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00:50
And then I thought: wait a minute.
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然後我想：等等。
00:52
If things continue,
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如果事情繼續發展的話，
00:55
then maybe not only will the start-ups
in which we invest struggle
in which we invest struggle
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或許不只我們投資的
初創公司會陷入危機，
初創公司會陷入危機，
01:00
because there won't be people to have jobs
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因為就不會有人有工作
01:03
to pay for the things
that they make and buy them,
that they make and buy them,
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來付錢買機器人做的東西，
01:06
but our economy and society
might struggle, too.
might struggle, too.
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我們的經濟和社會可能也會岌岌可危。
01:09
And look, I should be the guy
who sits here and tells you,
who sits here and tells you,
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而我應該是坐在這裡告訴你說：
01:12
"Everything is going to be fine.
It's all going to work out great.
It's all going to work out great.
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「一切都不會有問題。
所以的問題都會迎刃而解。
所以的問題都會迎刃而解。
嘿，當引進自動櫃員機時，
01:15
Hey, when they introduced the ATM machine,
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幾年過後，銀行的櫃員比以前多。」
01:17
years later, there's more
tellers in banks."
tellers in banks."
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01:19
It's true.
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這是真的。
01:20
And yet, when I looked at it, I thought,
"This is going to accelerate.
"This is going to accelerate.
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然而，當我看著它，我心想，
「這會加速發展。
「這會加速發展。
01:24
And if it does accelerate,
there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
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一旦它加速發展了，
中心可能就無法掌控住。」
中心可能就無法掌控住。」
但我認為有人必定知道
這個問題的答案；
這個問題的答案；
01:27
But I figured somebody must know
the answer to this;
the answer to this;
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許多人有很棒的點子。
01:29
there are so many ideas out there.
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我經常看書，也常去參加會議，
01:31
And I read all the books,
and I went to the conferences,
and I went to the conferences,
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01:34
and at one point, we counted more than
100 efforts to study the future of work.
100 efforts to study the future of work.
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有一次我們數算了，有超過
100 個有關未來工作的研究。
100 個有關未來工作的研究。
01:40
And it was a frustrating experience,
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這個經驗讓人覺得很挫敗，
01:43
because I'd hear the same back-and-forth
over and over again:
over and over again:
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因為我來回一遍又一遍地
聽到同樣的話：
聽到同樣的話：
01:47
"The robots are coming!"
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「機器人即將來臨！」
01:49
And then somebody else would say,
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然後，其他人說：
01:50
"Oh, don't worry about that, they've
always said that and it turns out OK."
always said that and it turns out OK."
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「哦，不用擔心，他們
一直都這麼說，結果也都沒事。」
一直都這麼說，結果也都沒事。」
然後，另外一個人說，
01:54
Then somebody else would say,
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「嗯，其實你工作
賦予你的意義才重要。」
賦予你的意義才重要。」
01:55
"Well, it's really about the meaning
of your job, anyway."
of your job, anyway."
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然後每個人就聳聳肩離開喝酒去了。
01:58
And then everybody would shrug
and go off and have a drink.
and go off and have a drink.
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這些話感覺就像是
在歌舞伎劇院裡的討論，
在歌舞伎劇院裡的討論，
02:01
And it felt like there was this
Kabuki theater of this discussion,
Kabuki theater of this discussion,
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每個人各說各話，沒有交流。
02:04
where nobody was talking to each other.
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很多我認識的在科技領域工作的人，
02:06
And many of the people that I knew
and worked with in the technology world
and worked with in the technology world
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他們不與政策制定者對話；
政策制定者也不和這些人討論。
02:09
were not speaking to policy makers;
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02:11
the policy makers
were not speaking to them.
were not speaking to them.
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所以我們與名為「新美國」的
無黨派非政府組織的智庫合作，
無黨派非政府組織的智庫合作，
02:13
And so we partnered with a nonpartisan
think tank NGO called New America
think tank NGO called New America
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02:17
to study this issue.
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來研究這個議題。
02:19
And we brought together a group of people,
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我們聚集了一群人，
02:21
including an AI czar
at a technology company
at a technology company
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包括一家科技公司的人工智慧巨擘，
02:25
and a video game designer
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一位電子遊戲設計師，
02:26
and a heartland conservative
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一位傳統的保守者，
02:28
and a Wall Street investor
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一位華爾街投資人，
02:29
and a socialist magazine editor --
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和社會主義雜誌的編輯——
02:31
literally, all in the same room;
it was occasionally awkward --
it was occasionally awkward --
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把他們都放在同一個房間裡；
偶爾會很尷尬——
偶爾會很尷尬——
02:34
to try to figure out
what is it that will happen here.
what is it that will happen here.
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試圖找出未來會如何變化。
02:37
The question we asked was simple.
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我們要問的問題很簡單。
02:40
It was: What is the effect of technology
on work going to be?
on work going to be?
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那就是：科技對工作的影響
將會是什麼？
將會是什麼？
02:44
And we looked out 10 to 20 years,
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我們探討 10 到 20 年後的情形，
02:45
because we wanted to look out far enough
that there could be real change,
that there could be real change,
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因為我們要看到在夠遠的未來
可能會發生的真正變化，
可能會發生的真正變化，
但很快地我們就不探討
心靈傳輸或類似的事情。
心靈傳輸或類似的事情。
02:49
but soon enough that we weren't talking
about teleportation or anything like that.
about teleportation or anything like that.
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我們知道——
02:53
And we recognized --
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02:54
and I think every year
we're reminded of this in the world --
we're reminded of this in the world --
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我想身處在這世界上
每年都會被提醒到——
每年都會被提醒到——
02:57
that predicting what's
going to happen is hard.
going to happen is hard.
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預測未來之事是很困難的。
不去預測未來，
你可以做其他事情。
你可以做其他事情。
02:59
So instead of predicting,
there are other things you can do.
there are other things you can do.
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你可以試著去想像其他可能的未來，
03:02
You can try to imagine
alternate possible futures,
alternate possible futures,
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03:05
which is what we did.
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這就是我們所做的。
03:06
We did a scenario-planning exercise,
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我們做了一個情景規劃練習。
03:08
and we imagined cases
where no job is safe.
where no job is safe.
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我們想像沒有一個工作是安全的情況。
03:11
We imagined cases where every job is safe.
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我們想像每個工作都是安全的情況。
03:14
And we imagined every
distinct possibility we could.
distinct possibility we could.
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我們想像所有不同的可能性。
03:18
And the result, which really surprised us,
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結果是，出乎我們的意料之外，
03:22
was when you think through those futures
and you think what should we do,
and you think what should we do,
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當你透徹地思考這些未來，
以及你認為我們該怎麼做，
以及你認為我們該怎麼做，
03:25
the answers about what we should do
actually turn out to be the same,
actually turn out to be the same,
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結果我們應該做什麼的答案
都是一樣的，
都是一樣的，
無論發生了什麼。
03:29
no matter what happens.
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03:31
And the irony of looking out
10 to 20 years into the future is,
10 to 20 years into the future is,
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諷刺的是展望
10 到 20 年後的未來，
10 到 20 年後的未來，
03:35
you realize that the things
we want to act on
we want to act on
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你發現我們想要採取的行動
03:37
are actually already happening right now.
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其實現在已經在發生了。
03:39
The automation is right now,
the future is right now.
the future is right now.
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現在已經在自動化，
未來就在眼前。
未來就在眼前。
03:42
BF: So what does that mean,
and what does that tell us?
and what does that tell us?
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BF：那是什麼意思，
那告訴了我們什麼？
那告訴了我們什麼？
如果現在是未來，
我們應該做什麼，
我們應該做什麼，
03:45
If the future is now, what is it
that we should be doing,
that we should be doing,
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03:47
and what should we be thinking about?
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以及我們應該考慮什麼呢？
03:49
RB: We have to understand
the problem first.
the problem first.
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RB：首先我們必須了解問題。
03:51
And so the data are that as the economy
becomes more productive
becomes more productive
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數據顯示的是
當經濟變得更具生產力，
當經濟變得更具生產力，
03:55
and individual workers
become more productive,
become more productive,
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每一位工作者變得更有效率，
03:57
their wages haven't risen.
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但他們的工資沒有上漲。
03:59
If you look at the proportion
of prime working-age men,
of prime working-age men,
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如果你看一下主要工作男性的比例，
04:02
in the United States at least,
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至少在美國，
04:04
who work now versus in 1960,
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與 1960 年代工作的人比較，
04:07
we have three times
as many men not working.
as many men not working.
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我們有三倍的男人沒在工作。
04:10
And then you hear the stories.
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然後你會聽到他們的故事。
04:11
I sat down with a group
of Walmart workers and said,
of Walmart workers and said,
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我與一群沃爾瑪的員工交談，我說：
你認為這個能讓你
自助結帳的機器如何？
自助結帳的機器如何？
04:14
"What do you think about this cashier,
this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
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他們說：「這很好，
但你有聽說過現金回收機嗎？」
但你有聽說過現金回收機嗎？」
04:17
They said, "That's nice, but have
you heard about the cash recycler?
you heard about the cash recycler?
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那是現在正在安裝中的機器，
04:21
That's a machine that's being
installed right now,
installed right now,
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每一台可以取代兩個
在沃爾瑪賣場工作的人。」
在沃爾瑪賣場工作的人。」
04:23
and is eliminating two jobs
at every Walmart right now."
at every Walmart right now."
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所以我們只是想，
「天呀。我們沒有了解到問題。」
「天呀。我們沒有了解到問題。」
04:26
And so we just thought, "Geez. We don't
understand the problem."
understand the problem."
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04:29
And so we looked at the voices
that were the ones that were excluded,
that were the ones that were excluded,
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所以我們去找那些被排除在外的聲音，
04:32
which is all of the people
affected by this change.
affected by this change.
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那些人是受到這些變化影響的人。
04:35
And we decided to listen to them,
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我們決定去聽他們的心聲，
04:36
sort of "automation and its discontents."
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像是「自動化和它所造成的不滿。」
我過去幾年都在這麼做。
04:38
And I've spent the last
couple of years doing that.
couple of years doing that.
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我去過密歇根州的弗林特，
和俄亥俄州的揚斯敦，
和俄亥俄州的揚斯敦，
04:41
I've been to Flint, Michigan,
and Youngstown, Ohio,
and Youngstown, Ohio,
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和企業家討論，
試圖讓它在極不同的環境
試圖讓它在極不同的環境
04:43
talking about entrepreneurs,
trying to make it work
trying to make it work
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04:46
in a very different environment
from New York or San Francisco
from New York or San Francisco
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如紐約、舊金山
04:49
or London or Tokyo.
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到倫敦、東京都能夠順利完成。
04:50
I've been to prisons twice
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我去過監獄兩次，
04:52
to talk to inmates about
their jobs after they leave.
their jobs after they leave.
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和囚犯討論他們離開監獄後的工作。
04:55
I've sat down with truck drivers
to ask them about the self-driving truck,
to ask them about the self-driving truck,
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我和卡車司機坐下來，
問他們對於自動駕駛卡車的看法，
問他們對於自動駕駛卡車的看法，
04:58
with people who, in addition
to their full-time job,
to their full-time job,
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我與一些在全職工作外
05:01
care for an aging relative.
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也照顧年老親人的人談話。
05:03
And when you talk to people,
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當你與人們談話後，
05:04
there were two themes
that came out loud and clear.
that came out loud and clear.
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有兩個主題被搬上檯面且非常明確。
05:08
The first one was that people
are less looking for more money
are less looking for more money
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第一是人們較不追求更多的金錢，
05:13
or get out of the fear
of the robot taking their job,
of the robot taking their job,
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或較不害怕機器人取代他們的工作，
05:16
and they just want something stable.
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他們只是希望比較穩定的工作。
05:18
They want something predictable.
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他們想要可預測的東西。
05:19
So if you survey people and ask them
what they want out of work,
what they want out of work,
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所以，如果你調查詢問他們
想要在工作得到什麼，
想要在工作得到什麼，
05:23
for everybody who makes
less than 150,000 dollars a year,
less than 150,000 dollars a year,
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每個年薪在 15 萬以下的人，
05:27
they'll take a more stable
and secure income, on average,
and secure income, on average,
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平均來說，他們會接受收入
比較穩定和安全的工作，
比較穩定和安全的工作，
05:30
over earning more money.
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而不是收入更高的工作。
05:32
And if you think about the fact that
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如果你考慮一下這個事實：
05:34
not only for all of the people
across the earth who don't earn a living,
across the earth who don't earn a living,
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不僅是地球上所有沒有在工作的人，
05:38
but for those who do,
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而是那些在工作的人，
05:39
the vast majority earn a different
amount from month to month
amount from month to month
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絕大多數人每月拿到不同的金額，
05:42
and have an instability,
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很不穩定，
05:43
all of a sudden you realize,
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你突然意識到，
「等一下。
我們手上有個真正的問題。」
我們手上有個真正的問題。」
05:44
"Wait a minute. We have
a real problem on our hands."
a real problem on our hands."
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他們說的第二件事，
我們花了比較長的時間才理解。
我們花了比較長的時間才理解。
05:47
And the second thing they say,
which took us a longer time to understand,
which took us a longer time to understand,
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05:51
is they say they want dignity.
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那就是說他們要有尊嚴。
05:53
And that concept
of self-worth through work
of self-worth through work
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而那個通過工作實現自我價值的概念
05:59
emerged again and again and again
in our conversations.
in our conversations.
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一次又一次地出現在我們的談話中。
BF：謝謝你告訴我們這個答案。
06:01
BF: So, I certainly
appreciate this answer.
appreciate this answer.
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06:04
But you can't eat dignity,
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但你不能靠尊嚴吃飯，
06:06
you can't clothe your children
with self-esteem.
with self-esteem.
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你不能用自尊心
買衣服給你的孩子穿。
買衣服給你的孩子穿。
06:09
So, what is that, how do you reconcile --
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那麼，那是什麼，你如何調和——
06:12
what does dignity mean,
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尊嚴意味著什麼，
06:14
and what is the relationship
between dignity and stability?
between dignity and stability?
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尊嚴和穩定之間的關係是什麼？
06:18
RB: You can't eat dignity.
You need stability first.
You need stability first.
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RB：你不能靠尊嚴吃飯。
你首先需要穩定。
你首先需要穩定。
06:20
And the good news is,
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好消息是，
06:21
many of the conversations
that are happening right now
that are happening right now
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很多大家在談論的是
06:24
are about how we solve that.
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關於我們如何解決這個問題。
06:26
You know, I'm a proponent
of studying guaranteed income,
of studying guaranteed income,
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你知道，我是研究保證收入的支持者，
06:30
as one example,
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那是一個例子，
06:31
conversations about how
health care gets provided
health care gets provided
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另外也有如有關如何提供
醫療保健和其他福利的討論。
醫療保健和其他福利的討論。
06:33
and other benefits.
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06:35
Those conversations are happening,
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這些討論都正在發生，
06:36
and we're at a time
where we must figure that out.
where we must figure that out.
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我們正處於必須解決
這些問題的關鍵時刻。
這些問題的關鍵時刻。
06:39
It is the crisis of our era.
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這是我們時代的危機。
06:40
And my point of view
after talking to people
after talking to people
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在和許多人對話後，我的觀點是
06:43
is that we may do that,
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即使我們那麼做，
06:45
and it still might not be enough.
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可能還不夠。
06:47
Because what we need to do
from the beginning is understand
from the beginning is understand
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因為我們從一開始就必須了解的是
什麼是能使人們得到尊嚴的工作，
06:50
what is it about work
that gives people dignity,
that gives people dignity,
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06:52
so they can live the lives
that they want to live.
that they want to live.
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讓他們可以過他們想過的日子。
06:55
And so that concept of dignity is ...
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所以尊嚴的概念就是…...
07:00
it's difficult to get your hands around,
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你很難了解清楚，
因為當很多人聽到它時——
特別是，說實話，有錢人——
特別是，說實話，有錢人——
07:01
because when many people hear it --
especially, to be honest, rich people --
especially, to be honest, rich people --
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他們聽到的是「意義。」
07:05
they hear "meaning."
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他們聽到「我的工作對我很重要。」
07:06
They hear "My work is important to me."
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如果你做調查，你問他們，
07:08
And again, if you survey people
and you ask them,
and you ask them,
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「『你的工作對你來說很重要』
這一點對你有多重要？」
這一點對你有多重要？」
07:12
"How important is it to you
that your work be important to you?"
that your work be important to you?"
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07:15
only people who make
150,000 dollars a year or more
150,000 dollars a year or more
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只有年薪在 15 萬美元以上的人說
07:19
say that it is important to them
that their work be important.
that their work be important.
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「他們的工作很重要」
這點對他們來說很重要。
這點對他們來說很重要。
07:24
BF: Meaning, meaningful?
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BF：意思是有意義的？
RB：我們就是定義它為，
「你的工作對你很重要嗎？」
「你的工作對你很重要嗎？」
07:25
RB: Just defined as,
"Is your work important to you?"
"Is your work important to you?"
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07:29
Whatever somebody took that to mean.
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不管大家認為是什麼意思。
07:31
And yet, of course dignity is essential.
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然而，尊嚴當然是必不可少的。
我們和卡車司機談話，他說：
07:33
We talked to truck drivers who said,
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「我曾看我的堂兄弟開卡車，
當我也開始開卡車時，覺得真棒。
當我也開始開卡車時，覺得真棒。
07:35
"I saw my cousin drive, and I got
on the open road and it was amazing.
on the open road and it was amazing.
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07:39
And I started making more money
than people who went to college."
than people who went to college."
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我開始賺比上大學的人更多的錢。」
07:42
Then they'd get to the end
of their thought and say something like,
of their thought and say something like,
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然後他們談到他們最終的想法，說：
07:45
"People need their fruits
and vegetables in the morning,
and vegetables in the morning,
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「人們早上需要吃水果和蔬菜，
而我是那個運送
蔬菜水果給他們的人。」
蔬菜水果給他們的人。」
07:48
and I'm the guy who gets it to them."
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我們和一位除了做他的正職外，
也兼照顧他阿姨的人訪談。
也兼照顧他阿姨的人訪談。
07:50
We talked to somebody who, in addition
to his job, was caring for his aunt.
to his job, was caring for his aunt.
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他的收入很高。
07:53
He was making plenty of money.
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有一次我們就問他：
07:55
At one point we just asked,
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「你為什麼要照顧你的阿姨？
難道你不能花錢請別人去做嗎？」
難道你不能花錢請別人去做嗎？」
07:56
"What is it about caring for your aunt?
Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
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他說：「我的阿姨不要我們請的人。
08:00
He said, "My aunt doesn't want
somebody we pay for.
somebody we pay for.
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08:03
My aunt wants me."
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我的阿姨要我。」
08:04
So there was this concept there
of being needed.
of being needed.
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那裡有「被需要」這個概念。
08:08
If you study the word
"dignity," it's fascinating.
"dignity," it's fascinating.
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如果你研究「尊嚴」這個詞，
它很令人著迷。
它很令人著迷。
08:10
It's one of the oldest words
in the English language, from antiquity.
in the English language, from antiquity.
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這是最古老的詞之一，
來自古代的英語。
來自古代的英語。
它有兩個含義：
08:14
And it has two meanings:
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一個是自我價值，
08:15
one is self-worth,
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另一個是感覺很合適、恰如其分，
08:16
and the other is that something
is suitable, it's fitting,
is suitable, it's fitting,
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08:20
meaning that you're part
of something greater than yourself,
of something greater than yourself,
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意思是你屬於比自身
更偉大事物的一部分，
更偉大事物的一部分，
而它連接到更宏偉的整體。
08:23
and it connects to some broader whole.
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換句話說，你是被需要的。
08:25
In other words, that you're needed.
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BF：那你怎麼回答這個問題呢？
08:27
BF: So how do you answer this question,
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我們付給以下這些人太低的工資：
08:29
this concept that we don't pay teachers,
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08:31
and we don't pay eldercare workers,
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老師、老人照護員、
08:33
and we don't pay people
who really care for people
who really care for people
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真的關心他人的人，
08:36
and are needed, enough?
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而且是被需要的人。
RB：嗯，好消息是，
人們終於提出了這個問題。
人們終於提出了這個問題。
08:38
RB: Well, the good news is,
people are finally asking the question.
people are finally asking the question.
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08:42
So as AI investors,
we often get phone calls
we often get phone calls
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身為人工智慧的投資者，
我們經常接到
我們經常接到
08:44
from foundations or CEOs
and boardrooms saying,
and boardrooms saying,
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來自基金會或執行長
和董事會的電話，說：
和董事會的電話，說：
08:47
"What do we do about this?"
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「我們該怎麼做呢？」
08:48
And they used to be asking,
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他們以前問的是：
08:49
"What do we do about
introducing automation?"
introducing automation?"
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「我們該怎麼引入自動化呢？」
08:51
And now they're asking,
"What do we do about self-worth?"
"What do we do about self-worth?"
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現在他們問：
「我們如何處理自我價值？」
「我們如何處理自我價值？」
08:54
And they know that the employees
who work for them
who work for them
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他們知道他們的員工
08:57
who have a spouse who cares for somebody,
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誰有配偶要照顧某人，
08:59
that dignity is essential
to their ability to just do their job.
to their ability to just do their job.
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他們知道尊嚴對於員工能夠勝任
他們的工作至關重要。
他們的工作至關重要。
09:02
I think there's two kinds of answers:
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我想有兩種答案：
09:04
there's the money side
of just making your life work.
of just making your life work.
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一種是錢的方面，
就是工作讓你養家糊口。
就是工作讓你養家糊口。
09:07
That's stability. You need to eat.
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那就是穩定。 你需要能吃飽。
09:09
And then you think about
our culture more broadly,
our culture more broadly,
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然後你將我們的文化想得更廣泛，
09:12
and you ask: Who do we make into heroes?
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你問：我們讓誰成為英雄？
09:14
And, you know, what I want
is to see the magazine cover
is to see the magazine cover
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我想要看到的是雜誌封面人物
09:19
that is the person
who is the heroic caregiver.
who is the heroic caregiver.
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呈現的是英雄般的照護工作者。
09:22
Or the Netflix series
that dramatizes the person
that dramatizes the person
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或在 Netflix 系列的影片裡
那個讓所有東西都維持正常運作，
那個讓所有東西都維持正常運作，
09:25
who makes all of our other lives work
so we can do the things we do.
so we can do the things we do.
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我們因而可以安居樂業的人。
09:28
Let's make heroes out of those people.
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我們讓這些人成為英雄吧。
09:30
That's the Netflix show
that I would binge.
that I would binge.
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這是會讓我為之瘋狂的
Netflix 節目。
Netflix 節目。
09:32
And we've had chroniclers
of this before --
of this before --
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我們以前就有這種編年史家——
09:34
Studs Terkel,
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史都茨 · 特枸，
09:35
the oral history of the working
experience in the United States.
experience in the United States.
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他口述了在美國工作經驗的歷史。
09:39
And what we need is the experience
of needing one another
of needing one another
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我們需要的是彼此需要的經驗，
09:42
and being connected to each other.
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以及彼此連結的經驗。
09:44
Maybe that's the answer
for how we all fit as a society.
for how we all fit as a society.
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也許這就是我們能
在社會相互依存的答案。
在社會相互依存的答案。
09:47
And the thought exercise, to me, is:
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對我來說，思考練習是：
09:49
if you were to go back 100 years
and have people --
and have people --
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如果你回到 100 年前
並有人 ......
並有人 ......
09:51
my grandparents, great-grandparents,
a tailor, worked in a mine --
a tailor, worked in a mine --
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我的祖父母，曾祖父母，
一個裁縫，在礦坑工作 -
一個裁縫，在礦坑工作 -
當他們看到我們謀生的方式，
會說：「那不能算是工作。」
會說：「那不能算是工作。」
09:55
they look at what all of us do
for a living and say, "That's not work."
for a living and say, "That's not work."
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09:59
We sit there and type and talk,
and there's no danger of getting hurt.
and there's no danger of getting hurt.
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我們是坐在那裡打字和說話，
而且沒有受傷的危險。
而且沒有受傷的危險。
10:03
And my guess is that if you were
to imagine 100 years from now,
to imagine 100 years from now,
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我的猜測是，如果你想像
100 年後的事，
100 年後的事，
10:07
we'll still be doing things
for each other.
for each other.
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我們還會在為彼此做事。
我們仍然需要彼此。
10:09
We'll still need one another.
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10:10
And we just will think of it as work.
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我們只會將它視為工作。
10:12
The entire thing I'm trying to say
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我想說的全部內容是
10:14
is that dignity should not
just be about having a job.
just be about having a job.
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尊嚴不應該只是有一份工作。
10:17
Because if you say
you need a job to have dignity,
you need a job to have dignity,
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因為如果你說
你需要一份工作才會有尊嚴，
你需要一份工作才會有尊嚴，
10:20
which many people say,
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很多人這麼說，
10:21
the second you say that,
you say to all the parents
you say to all the parents
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當你這麼說，
你就是在對所有的父母、
你就是在對所有的父母、
10:24
and all the teachers
and all the caregivers
and all the caregivers
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所有的老師和所有照護者說，
10:26
that all of a sudden,
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突然間，
10:27
because they're not being paid
for what they're doing,
for what they're doing,
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因為他們所做的事情
並沒有得到相對應的報酬，
並沒有得到相對應的報酬，
在某種程度上似乎就
缺乏了基本的人本素質。
缺乏了基本的人本素質。
10:30
it somehow lacks this
essential human quality.
essential human quality.
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10:32
To me, that's the great
puzzle of our time:
puzzle of our time:
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對我來說，這是我們時代的大謎題：
10:35
Can we figure out how to provide
that stability throughout life,
that stability throughout life,
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我們如何提供終身穩定的生活，
我們如何能創造一個包容......
10:38
and then can we figure out
how to create an inclusive,
how to create an inclusive,
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10:40
not just racially, gender,
but multigenerationally inclusive --
but multigenerationally inclusive --
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不僅僅是對種族、性別，
還有多世代的包容——
還有多世代的包容——
10:44
I mean, every different
human experience included --
human experience included --
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我的意思是，包括
各種不同人類經驗——
各種不同人類經驗——
以這種方式理解我們如何彼此需要。
10:49
in this way of understanding
how we can be needed by one another.
how we can be needed by one another.
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BF：謝謝。
RB：謝謝。
RB：謝謝。
10:53
BF: Thank you.
RB: Thank you.
RB: Thank you.
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BF：非常感謝你們的參與。
10:54
BF: Thank you very much
for your participation.
for your participation.
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10:56
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Roy Bahat - Venture capitalistRoy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more.
Why you should listen
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work as a venture capitalist, with a focus on machine intelligence. Prior to his life as a VC, Bahat founded start-ups, served as a corporate executive at News Corp. and worked in government in the office of New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg.
As the head of Bloomberg Beta, an investment firm with 150 million dollars under management, Bahat and his team have invested in areas like automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and many others.
Fast Company named Bahat one of the Most Creative People in Business and noted "Bahat is a natural innovator ... one of the most candid people you'll ever meet (check out his LinkedIn profile)." He organized "Comeback Cities," where he leads groups of venture capitalists and members of Congress on bus tours to find the untapped beds of talent and entrepreneurship in America. He also co-chaired the Shift Commission on Work, Workers, and Technology, a partnership between Bloomberg and think-tank New America to look at automation and the future of work 10 to 20 years from now.
Bahat is on the faculty at U.C. Berkeley, where he teaches about media at the Haas School of Business. He serves on the board of the Center for Investigative Reporting, a nonprofit newsroom, and is on the steering committee of the Economic Security Project. A graduate of Harvard College, where he ran the student public service nonprofit, Bahat was also a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University. He lives in San Francisco with his wife and two kids.
Roy Bahat | Speaker | TED.com
Bryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Why you should listen
Award-winning TV producer, investigative journalist and author, Bryn Freedman joined TED in 2014 as the editorial director and curator for the TED Institute. In her work with TED, Freedman creates and executes TED conference events for Fortune 500 companies, overseeing all editorial content as well as managing speaker coaches and determining both the topics for each talk and the overall conference theme. In addition to curating these events, she works as an executive speaker coach for professionals who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Freedman is also co-founder of Voices4Freedom, an international organization aimed at eradicating slavery through education and media.
Bryn Freedman | Speaker | TED.com