ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Afra Raymond - Transparency activist
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago.

Why you should listen

Afra Raymond calls out government corruption, demanding more transparency and accountability from the leaders of Trinidad and Tobago. His work in recent years has focused on the CL Financial collapse of 2009 and subsequent government bailout, which Raymond says operated “with different laws of physics” than bailouts of financial institutions in other countries. Writing on topics like white-collar crime, good governance and national development, Raymond shows that corruption shouldn't be a given. He wrote the column “Property Matters” in The Business Guardian from 2004 through 2012. Now, he writes on his own website, AfraRaymond.com.

Raymond looks at corruption through his lens as an expert in the fields of property valuation, project appraisal, development planning and management. He is a Chartered Surveyor and Managing Director of Raymond & Pierre Limited and  was elected a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in January 2011. He has served on a number of Boards in various positions including Executive Member of the Federation of Black Housing Organizations (FBHO) in London, Board member of the Trinidad Building & Loan Association (TBLA), Director of EPL Properties Limited (EPL), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Eastern Credit Union (ECU) and Immediate Past-President of the Institute of Surveyors of Trinidad & Tobago (ISTT).

More profile about the speaker
Afra Raymond | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxPortofSpain

Afra Raymond: Three myths about corruption

Afra Raymond: 关于贪腐的三个迷思

Filmed:
941,105 views

得益于石油产业,特立尼达和多巴哥在上世纪70年代积累了大量财富。但在1982,一个令人震惊的事实被披露:三分之二的建设资金被浪费或挪用。这个问题让Afra Raymond一直萦绕心头。30年来持续揭露政府贪贪腐的他,给我们带来金融犯罪的全新视野。(tedxportofspain拍摄)
- Transparency activist
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:16
Okay, this morning早上 I'm speaking请讲
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好,今天早上我要讲的
00:18
on the question of corruption腐败.
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是关于贪腐的问题。
00:21
And corruption腐败 is defined定义
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贪腐的定义是
00:23
as the abuse滥用 of a position位置 of trust相信
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滥用自己被信任的职位
00:29
for the benefit效益 of yourself你自己 -- or, in the case案件 of our context上下文,
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为了自己的私利,或者我今天讲的,
00:33
your friends朋友, your family家庭 or your financiers金融家.
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图利你的朋友, 你的家人或是你的投资者。
00:35
Okay? Friends, family家庭 and financiers金融家.
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懂了吗?朋友,家人或投资者。
00:40
But we need to understand理解 what we understand理解 about corruption腐败,
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但是我们需要了解
我们到底是如何理解贪腐的。
00:44
and we need to understand理解 that
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而且我们要认识到,
00:47
we have been miseducatedmiseducated about it, and we have to admit承认 that.
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在这个问题上我们一直是被教育误导的。
我们要承认这一点。
00:50
We have to have the courage勇气 to admit承认 that
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只有有勇气承认这一点,
00:52
to start开始 changing改变 how we deal合同 with it.
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才能开始改变我们对待它的方式。
00:54
The first thing is that the big myth神话, number one,
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第一件事,是个很大的迷思,
最大的一个。
00:57
is that in fact事实 it's not really a crime犯罪.
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即认为贪腐并不是真正的犯罪。
00:59
When we get together一起 with friends朋友 and family家庭
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当我们和亲朋好友一起,
01:01
and we discuss讨论 crime犯罪 in our country国家,
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聊到国内的犯罪行为,
01:03
crime犯罪 in Belmont贝尔蒙特 or crime犯罪 in Diego迭戈 or crime犯罪 in MarabellaMarabella,
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在贝尔蒙特,迭戈
或是马尔贝拉的犯罪的时候,
01:07
nobody's没有人是 speaking请讲 about corruption腐败.
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没有人会谈到贪腐。
01:08
That's the honest诚实 truth真相.
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这无疑是真实情况。
01:10
When the Commissioner专员 of Police警察 comes on TV电视 to talk about crime犯罪,
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当警署的行政长官
在电视上说到犯罪的时候,
01:13
he isn't speaking请讲 about corruption腐败.
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他说的也绝不会是贪腐。
01:15
And we know for sure when the Minister部长 of National国民 Security安全
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然后我们也很确信,
国家安全部部长谈论犯罪的时候,
01:17
is speaking请讲 about crime犯罪, he's not talking about corruption腐败 either.
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他也不是在说贪腐。
01:21
The point I'm making制造 is that it is a crime犯罪.
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我想要强调的观点是:
贪腐就是犯罪。
01:24
It is an economic经济 crime犯罪, because we're involving涉及 the looting抢劫 of taxpayers'纳税人 money.
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这是一种经济犯罪,
因为贪腐是在剥夺纳税人的钱。
01:28
Public上市 and private私人的 corruption腐败 is a reality现实.
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贪腐在公家机关和私营企业中都存在,
这是不争的事实。
01:31
As somebody who comes from the private私人的 sector扇形,
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作为来自私营企业的一员,
01:33
I can tell you there's a massive大规模的 amount of corruption腐败
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我可以告诉你这里有大量的腐败。
01:35
in the private私人的 sector扇形 that has nothing to do with government政府.
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我说的是和公家机关无关的企业内部贪腐。
01:38
The same相同 bribes行贿 and backhanders回扣 and things that take place地点 under the table,
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同样的贿赂,回扣,暗箱操作,
01:41
it all takes place地点 in the private私人的 sector扇形.
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在私营企业都存在。
01:43
Today今天, I'm focusing调焦 on public上市 sector扇形 corruption腐败,
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我把今天的焦点放在
政府部门的贪腐问题。
01:47
which哪一个 the private私人的 sector扇形 also participates参与 in.
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私营企业也参与其中。
01:50
The second第二 important重要 myth神话 to understand理解 --
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第二个要澄清的迷思是——
01:52
because we have to destroy破坏 these myths神话,
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因为我们必须破除这些迷思,
01:54
dismantle拆除 them and destroy破坏 them and ridicule嘲笑 them --
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去除,破坏并唾弃他们——
01:57
the second第二 important重要 myth神话 to understand理解
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第二个重要的迷思
01:59
is the one that says
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是这种说法:
02:01
that in fact事实 corruption腐败 is only a small problem问题 --
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贪腐实际上只是小问题。
02:04
if it is a problem问题, it's only a small problem问题,
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如果是有问题,
也微不足道。
02:07
that in fact事实 it's only a little 10 or 15 percent百分,
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影响可能是10%到15%。
02:10
it's been going on forever永远, it probably大概 will continue继续 forever永远,
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一直都有,说不定还会永远存在。
02:14
and there's no point passing通过 any laws法律, because there's little we can do about it.
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就算立法规范也没意义,
因为我们拿它没办法。
02:18
And I want to demonstrate演示 that that, too,
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我想举例指出,
02:20
is a dangerous危险 myth神话, very dangerous危险.
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这些想法也是非常危险的迷思。
非常危险。
02:22
It's a piece of public上市 mischief恶作剧.
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我举的例子
是一场公共的闹剧。
02:25
And I want to speak说话 a little bit,
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我想先讲一下背景,
02:27
take us back about 30 years年份.
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让我们回溯大概30年。
02:30
We're coming未来 out today今天 from Trinidad特立尼达 and Tobago多巴哥,
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我们来自特立尼达多巴哥(Trinidad and Tobago),
02:32
a resource-rich资源丰富, small Caribbean加勒比 country国家,
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这是一个资源丰富,
但面积不大的加勒比海国家,
02:35
and in the early 1970s we had a massive大规模的 increase增加 in the country's wealth财富,
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在20世纪70年代早期,
国家财富大量增加。
02:40
and that increase增加 was caused造成 by the increase增加 in world世界 oil prices价格.
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这得益于世界油价的增长。
02:43
We call them petrodollars石油美元. The treasury金库 was bursting爆破 with money.
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我们称之为石油美元(petrodollars)。
那时国库爆满。
02:46
And it's ironic具有讽刺意味, because
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然而很讽刺,
02:50
we're standing常设 today今天 in the Central中央 Bank银行.
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我们今天站在中央银行。
02:52
You see, history's历史上 rich丰富 in irony讽刺.
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你们看,历史就是充满了讽刺。
02:54
We're standing常设 today今天 in the Central中央 Bank银行,
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我们今天站在中央银行大楼里,
02:56
and the Central中央 Bank银行 is responsible主管 for a lot of the things I'm going to be speaking请讲 about.
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中央银行这起闹剧的罪魁祸首,
接下来我会讲到这些。
02:59
Okay? We're talking about irresponsibility不负责任 in public上市 office办公室.
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可以吗?
我们在政府机构谈论失职问题。
03:03
We're speaking请讲 about the fact事实 that across横过 the terrace阳台,
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广场对面那栋大楼,
03:05
the next下一个 tower is the Ministry of Finance金融,
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是我们的财政部大楼。
03:08
and there's a lot of connection连接 with us today今天,
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和我们今天的话题有很多关联性,
03:09
so we're speaking请讲 within your temple寺庙 today今天. Okay?
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所以今天所谈论的是和你们戚戚相关的。好吗?
03:12
(Applause掌声)
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(掌声)
03:17
The first thing I want to talk about is that
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我想说的第一件事情是,
03:19
when all of this money flowed流入 into our country国家 about 40 years年份 ago,
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大约40年前,
当这些钱流入我国以后,
03:23
we embarked开始, the government政府 of the day embarked开始
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我们开始着手利用,当时的政府。
03:25
on a series系列 of government-to-government政府对政府 arrangements安排
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他们签订了一系列的政府国际协定,
03:27
to have rapidly急速 develop发展 the country国家.
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使国家快速发展。
03:29
And some of the largest最大 projects项目 in the country国家
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国内有些最大的项目,
03:31
were being存在 constructed through通过 government-to-government政府对政府 arrangements安排
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是根据政府国际协定,
03:35
with some of the leading领导 countries国家 in the world世界,
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由一些先进国家来建设的。
03:36
the United联合的 States状态 and Britain英国 and France法国 and so on and so on.
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美国,英国,法国,等等。
03:39
As I said, even this building建造 we're standing常设 in -- that's one of the ironies讽刺 --
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就像我说的,甚至我们所处的这栋建筑,
它也是一个讽刺。
03:42
this building建造 was part部分 of that series系列 of complexes复合,
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这栋建筑
是那一系列复杂关系中的一部分,
03:44
what they called the Twin双胞胎 Towers.
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他们叫它双子星大厦。
03:48
It became成为 so outrageous蛮横的, the whole整个 situation情况,
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整个情况变得让人无法忍受,
03:51
that in fact事实 a commission佣金 of inquiry查询 was appointed任命,
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以至于我们任命了调查委员会。
03:54
and it reported报道 in 1982, 30 years年份 ago it reported报道 --
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据1982年的报道,
30年前的报告,
03:58
the Ballah巴拉 Report报告 -- 30 years年份 ago,
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叫Ballah报告—30年前,
04:01
and immediately立即 the government-to-government政府对政府 arrangements安排 were stopped停止.
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政府之间的协定立刻就被停止了。
04:05
The then-Prime当时的总理 Minister部长 went to Parliament议会
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然后总理出席议会,
04:06
to give a budget预算 speech言语, and he said some things that I'll never forget忘记.
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做政府财政报告。
报告让我印象深刻,无法忘怀。
04:10
They went right in here. I was a young年轻 man at the time.
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当时他们就在此地。
那时我还是一个年轻人。
04:12
It went right into my heart.
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演说直击我心。
04:13
And he said that, in fact事实 — Let me see if this thing works作品.
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他说,事实上,
—让我看看这个能不能用
04:18
Are we getting得到 a, yeah?—
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可以了吗?—
04:21
That's what he told us.
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他是这么说的。
04:23
He told us that, in fact事实,
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他告诉我们,事实上,
04:27
two out of every一切 three dollars美元 of our petrodollars石油美元
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我们的石油美金中,
三分之二的钱我们花掉的,
04:30
that we spent花费, the taxpayers'纳税人 money,
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纳税人的钱,
04:32
was wasted浪费 or stolen被盗.
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是被浪费掉或者挪用了。
04:34
So the 10 or 15 percent百分 is pure mischief恶作剧.
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所以10%或者15%的说法完全是错的。
04:38
As we say, it's a nancy-story南希的故事. Forget忘记 it.
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就像我们说的,它跟幼儿故事一样是骗人的。
别再相信了!
04:40
That's for little children孩子. We are big people,
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那是说给小孩听的,
我们都是成年人了。
04:42
and we're trying to deal合同 with what's happening事件 in our society社会.
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我们要试着去解决我们社会中存在的问题。
04:45
Okay? This is the size尺寸 of the problem问题.
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ok?这才是问题的真实大小。
04:47
Okay? Two thirds三分之二 of the money stolen被盗 or wasted浪费.
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ok?三分之二的钱被挪用或浪费。
04:50
That was 30 years年份 ago. 1982 was Ballah巴拉.
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那是30年以前。1982年Ballah。
04:53
So what has changed?
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那么状况有改变吗?
04:55
I don't like to bring带来 up embarrassing尴尬 secrets秘密
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我不想泄露让人尴尬的机密,
04:57
to an international国际 audience听众, but I have to.
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这里有很多外国观众。
但是我别无选择。
05:00
Four months个月 ago, we suffered遭遇 a constitutional构成 outrage暴行 in this country国家.
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四个月以前,
我们这个国家遭遇了宪法暴行。
05:03
We call it the Section部分 34 fiasco惨败, the Section部分 34 fiasco惨败,
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我们称为 “34节的惨败”。
05:08
a suspicious可疑 piece of law, and I'm going to say it like it is,
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这是一段可疑的法律条文,
我实事求是的说。
05:11
a suspicious可疑 piece of law
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可疑的法律条文,
05:12
was passed通过 at a suspicious可疑 time
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它在可疑的时间通过,
05:14
to free自由 some suspects犯罪嫌疑人. (Laughter笑声)
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为了释放某些可疑的嫌疑人。(笑声)
05:16
And it was called, those people are called
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据说这些人们被称作,
05:23
the Piarco皮亚尔科 Airport飞机场 accused被告.
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皮亚尔科机场(the Piarco Airport )被告。
05:24
I'm going to have my own拥有 lexicon词库 speaking请讲 here today今天.
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今天在这里我用自己的词汇来讲,
05:27
They are the Piarco皮亚尔科 Airport飞机场 accused被告.
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他们叫做皮亚尔科机场被告。
05:29
It was a constitutional构成 outrage暴行 of the first order订购,
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这是一级的宪法不公。
05:32
and I have labeled标记 it the Plot情节 to Pervert反常 Parliament议会.
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我把它看作是国会堕落的阴谋。
05:36
Our highest最高 institution机构 in our country国家 was perverted变态.
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我们国家的最高机关堕落了。
05:39
We are dealing交易 with perverts变态 here
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出于经济和财务天性,
05:41
of an economic经济 and financial金融 nature性质.
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我们在这里处理堕落问题。
05:43
Do you get how serious严重 this problem问题 is?
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你们能看出来问题有多严重吗?
05:45
There was massive大规模的 protest抗议. A lot of us in this room房间
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大规模的抗议,很多人在这间屋子里,
05:47
took part部分 in the protest抗议 in different不同 forms形式.
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以各种形式表达他们的不满。
05:49
Most importantly重要的, the American美国 embassy大使馆 complained抱怨,
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最重要的是,
美国大使馆也开始抱怨,
05:52
so Parliament议会 was swiftly如飞 reconvened重新召集,
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以至于国会很快重新召开。
05:55
and the law was reversed反向的, it was repealed废除.
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这条法律被推翻了,被废除了。
05:57
That's the word lawyers律师 use. It was repealed废除.
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律师的说法是这样。被废除了。
05:59
But the point is
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但是重点是,
06:02
that Parliament议会 was outwitted智胜 in the whole整个 course课程 of events事件,
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国会在整个事件中是被蒙蔽的,
06:05
because what really happened发生 is that,
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因为事情的真相是,
06:08
because of the suspicious可疑 passage通道 of that law,
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因为这条可疑法律的通过,
06:11
the law was actually其实 passed通过 into effect影响
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这条法律要在
06:13
on the weekend周末 we celebrated著名 our 50th anniversary周年 of independence独立,
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我们庆祝50周年独立纪念的周末生效。
06:17
our jubilee欢乐 of independence独立.
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独立纪念日。
06:18
So that is the kind of outrage暴行 of the thing.
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这是整个事件中最难容忍的部分。
06:20
It was kind of a nasty讨厌 way to get maturation成熟, but we got it,
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这似乎是用下流的手段达到目的,
但我们最终还是达到了。
06:24
because we all understood了解 it,
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因为我们都能理解。
06:25
and for the first time that I could remember记得,
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而且记忆中是第一次
06:27
there were mass protests抗议 against反对 this corruption腐败.
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针对贪腐举行了大规模的抗议活动。
06:31
And that gave me a lot of hope希望. Okay?
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这让我充满希望。是吗?
06:33
Those of us who are, sometimes有时 you feel like
137
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有时候你觉得
06:35
you're a little bit on your own拥有 doing some of this work.
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你微不足道,单打独斗,
06:38
That passage通道 of the law and the repeal废除 of the law
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这条法律的通过和废除,
06:41
fortified强化 the case案件 of the Piarco皮亚尔科 Airport飞机场 accused被告.
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壮大了Piarco机场被告。
06:45
So it was one of those really superior优越 double bluff虚张声势 kind of things that took place地点.
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所以事完全就是一桩彻头彻尾的欺骗。
06:50
But what were they accused被告 of?
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但是他们被指控了什么?
06:52
What was it that they were accused被告 of?
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他们到底被指控了什么?
06:53
I'm being存在 a bit mysterious神秘 for those of you out there. What were they accused被告 of?
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我好像有点在故弄玄虚。
他们犯了什么法?
06:56
We were trying to build建立, or reconstruct重建 largely大部分,
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我们大规模的建造,或者说是重建
06:59
an airport飞机场 that had grown长大的 outdated过时的.
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一座老旧的机场。
07:01
The entire整个 project项目 cost成本 about 1.6 billion十亿 dollars美元,
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整个项目花费大约16亿
07:05
Trinidad特立尼达 and Tobago多巴哥 dollars美元,
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特立尼达和多巴哥币。
07:08
and in fact事实, we had a lot of bid-rigging串通投标
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而事实上,这个过程发生了很多虚假投标,
07:11
and suspicious可疑 activity活动, corrupt腐败 activity活动 took place地点.
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可疑行为,贪腐。
07:14
And to get an idea理念 of what it consisted of,
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如果要了解有哪些,
07:18
and to put it in context上下文 in relationship关系 to this whole整个
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然后把它和我说的第二个迷思联系起来,
07:21
second第二 myth神话 about it being存在 no big thing,
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“不是什么大问题”的迷思。
07:24
we can look at this second第二 slide滑动 here.
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你们可以看第二张幻灯片。
07:26
And what we have here -- I am not saying so,
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这里说———不是我说的,
07:30
this is the Director导向器 of Public上市 Prosecutions检控 in a written书面 statement声明. He said so.
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这是一个检察长在书面报告中写的。
是他说的。
07:35
And he's telling告诉 us that for the $1.6 billion十亿 cost成本 of the project项目,
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他告诉我们在这16亿项目中,
07:39
one billion十亿 dollars美元 has been traced追踪
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有10亿被查到
07:42
to offshore海上 bank银行 accounts账户.
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在海外银行帐户。
07:43
One billion十亿 dollars美元 of our taxpayers'纳税人 money
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纳税人的钱有10亿,
07:45
has been located位于 in offshore海上 bank银行 accounts账户.
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在海外银行帐户。
07:49
Being存在 the kind of suspicious可疑 person I am,
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作为一个爱问问题的人,
07:51
I am outraged愤怒 at that, and I'm going to pause暂停 here,
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气愤难平,容我暂停片刻。
07:54
I'm going to pause暂停 now and again and bring带来 in different不同 things.
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我想暂停一下,讲一些其他的事情。
07:56
I'm going to pause暂停 here and bring带来 in something I saw
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我要讲一些我见到的事情。
07:58
in November十一月 last year at Wall Street. I was at Zuccotti祖科蒂 Park公园.
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去年11月在华尔街,我在祖科蒂公园(Zuccotti Park),
08:02
It was autumn秋季. It was cool. It was damp潮湿. It was getting得到 dark黑暗.
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那时是秋天,天气凉爽潮湿。
快天黑的时候,
08:06
And I was walking步行 around with the protesters抗议者
168
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1933
我经过一群抗议者。
08:08
looking at the One Wall Street, Occupy占据 Wall Street movement运动 walking步行 around.
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看着参加“一个华尔街,占领华尔街”运动的人们
在周围走过,
08:12
And there was a lady淑女 with a sign标志, a very simple简单 sign标志,
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有位女士拿着一块牌子,非常简单的牌子,
08:14
a kind of battered-looking受虐的前瞻性 blonde金发 lady淑女,
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她是一位身型消瘦的金发女士。
08:17
and the sign标志 was made制作 out of Bristol布里斯托尔 board, as we say in these parts部分,
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牌子是用很好的纸板做的,
08:20
and it was made制作 with a marker标记.
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用马克笔在上面写了字。
08:22
And what it said on that sign标志 hit击中 me right in the center中央.
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牌子上的话深深的打动了我。
08:24
It said, "If you're not outraged愤怒, you haven't没有 been paying付款 attention注意."
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它写说:
如果你并不觉得气愤,那是因为你漠不关心。
08:29
If you're not outraged愤怒 by all of this, you haven't没有 been paying付款 attention注意.
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如果你对所有这些无动于衷,
那是因为你漠不关心。
08:32
So listen up, because we're getting得到 into even deeper更深 waters水域.
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所以仔细聆听,
因为我们说不定更堕落。
08:36
My brain started开始 thinking思维.
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我开始思考。
08:38
Well, what if --
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那么,如果—
08:41
because I'm suspicious可疑 like that. I read a lot of spy间谍 novels小说 and stuff东东.
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不好意思,我生性多疑,
我读了很多的间谍小说什么的。
08:44
What if -- (Laughter笑声)
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如果—(笑声)
08:46
But to make it in these wrongs冤屈,
182
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但要挑出这些刺,
08:48
you have to read a lot of spy间谍 novels小说
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你就要读很多间谍小说对吧?
08:50
and follow跟随 some of that stuff东东, right? (Laughter笑声)
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还要按照间谍小说的思路走,对吧?(笑声)
08:52
But what if this wasn't the first time?
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如果不是第一次呢?
08:57
What if this is just the first time
186
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如果这些事情只是第一次
09:00
that the so-and-sos某某SOS had been caught抓住?
187
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被抓到而已呢?
09:02
What if it had happened发生 before? How would I find out?
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如果以前就曾有过这种事呢?
我要怎么知道啊?
09:07
Now, the previous以前 two examples例子 I gave
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好,我刚才的两个例子,
09:10
were to do with construction施工 sector扇形 corruption腐败, okay?
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是关于建设部门贪腐问题的,
09:14
And I have the privilege特权 at this time
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目前,
09:16
to lead the Joint联合 Consultative咨询 Council评议会, which哪一个 is a not-for-profit不以营利为目的.
192
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我有幸作为非营利组织联合咨询委员会
(Joint Consultative Council)的负责人,
09:19
We're at jccJCC.org组织.ttTT, and we have the -- we are the leaders领导者
193
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我们的网站是jcc.org.tt,
09:23
in the struggle斗争 to produce生产 a new public上市 procurement采购 system系统
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我们致力于创造一个新的公共采购系统,
09:26
about how public上市 money is transacted交易.
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以监督公共财产运作。
09:28
So those of you interested有兴趣 in finding发现 out more about it,
196
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如果各位有兴趣进一步了解,
09:30
or joining加盟 us or signing签约 up on any of our petitions请愿书, please get involved参与.
197
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4280
加入我们或联署我们的诉求,
不要犹豫。
09:34
But I'm going to segueSEGUE to another另一个 thing that relates涉及,
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我想转到另外一个相关的话题,
09:37
because one of my private私人的 campaigns活动 I've been conducting开展
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我个人已进行超过三年半的
09:39
for over three and a half years年份
200
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2336
一项私人活动。
09:42
is for transparency透明度 and accountability问责
201
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这项活动是为了
09:44
around the bailout救助 of CLCL Financial金融.
202
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3099
CL Financial疏困的透明化和问责制。
09:47
CLCL Financial金融 is the Caribbean's加勒比海 largest最大 ever conglomerate集团, okay?
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5001
CL Financial 是加勒比海有史以来
最大的金融保险公司不是吗?
09:52
And without getting得到 into all of the details细节,
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如果不去追究细节部分,
09:55
it is said to have collapsed倒塌 — I'm using运用 my words very carefully小心
205
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据说它破产了。—我很小心的使用措辞—
09:58
it's said to have collapsed倒塌 in January一月 of '09,
206
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2827
但是据说在2009年1月它破产了。
10:01
which哪一个 is just coming未来 up to nearly几乎 four years年份.
207
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3678
才快要4年而已。
10:05
In an unprecedented史无前例 fit适合 of generosity慷慨 --
208
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2812
真是前所未有的慷慨。
10:08
and you have to be very suspicious可疑 about these people --
209
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2483
而你必须对这些人保有怀疑,
10:10
in an unprecedented史无前例 — and I'm using运用 that word carefully小心
210
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前所未有的慷慨。
10:13
unprecedented史无前例 fit适合 of generosity慷慨, the government政府 of the day
211
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3884
—我很小心的使用这样的措辞。
10:17
signed, made制作 a written书面 commitment承诺, to repay偿还 all of the creditors债权人.
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政府签署文件,立下书面承诺,要帮债权人还债。
10:20
And I can tell you without fear恐惧 of contradiction矛盾
213
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我可以负责任的说,
10:23
that hasn't有没有 happened发生 anywhere随地 else其他 on the planet行星.
214
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从来没有一个国家有这样做过。
10:26
Let's understand理解, because we lack缺乏 context上下文.
215
610422
1911
我们试着去了解它,
因为我们不知道背景。
10:28
People are telling告诉 us it's just like Wall Street. It's not just like Wall Street.
216
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有人告诉我们这就像华尔街。
但不见得。
10:31
Trinidad特立尼达 and Tobago多巴哥 is like a place地点 with different不同 laws法律 of physics物理 or biology生物学 or something.
217
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4489
特立尼达和多巴哥就像是一个
有着不同物理或生物学定律的地方,
10:35
It's not just like anywhere随地. (Applause掌声)
218
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4744
它和任何地方都不一样。(掌声)
10:40
It's not just like anywhere随地. It's not just like anywhere随地.
219
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5154
它和任何地方都不一样。它和任何地方都不一样。
10:45
Here is here, and out there is out there. Okay?
220
629725
2831
这里就是这里,其它地方就是其它地方。
好吗?
10:48
I'm serious严重 now.
221
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1330
我是认真的。
10:49
Listen. They've他们已经 had bailouts救助 on Wall Street.
222
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听着,金援疏困在华尔街出现过。
10:52
They've他们已经 had bailouts救助 in London伦敦.
223
636869
1951
在伦敦出现过。
10:54
They've他们已经 had bailouts救助 in Europe欧洲.
224
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在欧洲出现过。
10:56
In Africa非洲, they've他们已经 had bailouts救助. In Nigeria尼日利亚, six of the major重大的
225
640957
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在非洲,也出现过。
在尼日利亚,
10:59
commercial广告 banks银行 collapsed倒塌 at the same相同 time as ours我们的, eh?
226
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2565
六家主要商业银行同时倒闭。啊?
11:02
It's interesting有趣 to parallel平行 how the Nigerian尼日利亚 experience经验 has --
227
646192
2241
把尼日利亚的经验
和我们的放在一起很有趣。
11:04
how they've他们已经 treated治疗 it, and they've他们已经 treated治疗 it
228
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2390
他们是如何处理的,
11:06
very well compared相比 to us.
229
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1871
而且他们的处理方式
比我们的还更好。
11:08
Nowhere无处 on the planet行星
230
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1932
世界上没有一个地方,
11:10
have all the creditors债权人 been bailed跳伞 out
231
654626
2706
让所有债权人获得清偿,
11:13
in excess过量 of what their statutory法定的 entitlements权益 were.
232
657332
2292
而超过他们的法定权利应得。
11:15
Only here. So what was the reason原因 for the generosity慷慨?
233
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3582
只有这里例外。
那么如此慷慨的理由是什么呢?
11:19
Is our government政府 that generous慷慨? And maybe they are.
234
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我们的政府有那么慷慨吗?
或许有。
11:21
Let's look at it. Let's look into it.
235
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2016
我们来看看。
我们仔细看看。
11:23
So I started开始 digging挖掘 and writing写作 and so and so on,
236
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2768
所以我开始挖掘,写作,如此之类的。
11:26
and that work can be found发现, my personal个人 work
237
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1812
我的作品可以被找到,
11:28
can be found发现 at AfraRaymondAfraRaymond.comCOM, which哪一个 is my name名称.
238
672607
3380
在AfraRaymond.com。大家可以搜我的名字。
11:31
It's a not-for-profit不以营利为目的 blog博客 that I run.
239
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2872
我的博客是非营利的。
11:34
Not as popular流行 as some of the other people, but there you go.
240
678859
2524
没有博客名人那样受欢迎啦,
但是不妨看一下啦。
11:37
(Laughter笑声)
241
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2258
(笑声)
11:39
But the point is that the bitter experience经验 of Section部分 34,
242
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4489
但重点是34节的惨痛教训,
11:44
that plot情节 to pervert反常 Parliament议会, that bitter experience经验
243
688130
2457
使国会堕落的阴谋,
11:46
that took place地点 in August八月,
244
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3086
八月发生的惨痛教训,
11:49
when we were supposed应该 to be celebrating庆祝 our independence独立,
245
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2898
当我们九月应该去庆祝独立日的时候,
11:52
going into September九月, forced被迫 me to check myself
246
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4664
我强迫自己去反省,
11:57
and recalculate重新计算 my bearings轴承,
247
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2059
重新审视我的底线,
11:59
and to go back into some of the work, some of the stuff东东 I'd written书面
248
703294
2222
重新检视我的作品,
我写过的那些东西。
12:01
and some of the exchanges交流 I'd had with the officials官员
249
705516
2269
以及为了知道事情的真相,
12:03
to see what was really what.
250
707785
2004
而和政府做的妥协。
12:05
As we say in Trinidad特立尼达 and Tobago多巴哥, who is who and what is what?
251
709789
4110
就像我们在特立尼达和多巴哥所说的,
那些人的真实身份是谁?事情的真相是什么?
12:09
Okay? We want to try to recalculate重新计算.
252
713899
1824
可以吗?我们要重新审视这些。
12:11
And I made制作 a Freedom自由 of Information信息 application应用
253
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2424
我向财政部提交了信息自由申请,
12:14
in May可能 this year to the Ministry of Finance金融.
254
718147
3914
今年5月的时候。
12:17
The Ministry of Finance金融 is the next下一个 tower over.
255
722061
2058
财政部是附近那栋大楼。
12:20
This is the other context上下文.
256
724119
1675
这是另外一个背景。
12:21
The Ministry of Finance金融, we are told,
257
725794
2076
听说财政部,
12:23
is subject学科 to the provisions规定 of the Freedom自由 of Information信息 Act法案.
258
727870
3829
需要规范于信息自由法。
12:27
I'm going to take you through通过 a worked工作 example of whether是否 that's really so.
259
731699
3304
我将用一个发生过的事例,
告诉你是不是真的是这样。
12:30
The Central中央 Bank银行 in which哪一个 we stand this morning早上
260
735003
2888
我们现在所处的中央银行,
12:33
is immune免疫的 from the provisions规定 of the Freedom自由 of Information信息 Act法案.
261
737891
4197
是不受信息自由法规范的。
12:37
So in fact事实, you can't ask them anything,
262
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1679
所以,实际上你们无权质疑他们任何事情。
12:39
and they don't have to answer回答 anything.
263
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1693
他们不用回答任何问题。
12:41
That is the law since以来 1999.
264
745460
2822
从1999年法律就是这样。
12:44
So I plunged暴跌 into this struggle斗争, and I asked four questions问题.
265
748282
3576
但我极力争取,问了四个问题。
12:47
And I'll relate涉及 the questions问题 to you in the short form形成 with the reply回复,
266
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3689
问答的精简版,我提供给你们看看。
12:51
so you could understand理解, as I said, where we are.
267
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2615
那样你们就能了解,
就像我说的,我们的处境如何。
12:54
Here is not like anywhere随地 else其他.
268
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1521
这里不像别的任何地方。
12:55
Question number one:
269
759683
2978
第一个问题:
12:58
I asked to see the accounts账户 of CLCL Financial金融,
270
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2590
我要求看CL Financi的账目。
13:01
and if you can't show显示 me the accounts账户 --
271
765251
2472
如果你们不能公布帐目的话,
13:03
the Minister部长 of Finance金融 is making制造 statements声明,
272
767723
1965
那财政部在发表声明,
13:05
passing通过 new laws法律 and giving speeches演讲 and so on.
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通过法新法和发表演讲,
做这些事情的时候,
13:08
What are the figures人物 he's relying依托 on?
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他的依据是什么呢?
13:10
It's like that joke玩笑: I want whatever随你 he's drinking.
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这很好笑:
我只是想要他现在喝的东西,不管是什么
13:13
And they wrote back and said to me,
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但他们回信说:
13:14
well what do you really mean?
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你真正的意思是什么?
13:16
So they hit击中 my question with a question.
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他们就抛出一个问题来回避我的问题。
13:18
Second第二 point: I want to see
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第二个问题:
13:21
who are the creditors债权人 of the group who have been repaid偿还?
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我想知道债权人是谁?
谁会获得赔偿?
13:25
Let me pause暂停 here to point out to you all
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让我暂停一下,我要跟各位指出,
13:27
that 24 billion十亿 dollars美元 of our money has been spent花费 on this.
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我们的钱,有240亿花在这里。
13:31
That is about three and a half billion十亿 U.S. dollars美元
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大概是35亿美金。
13:33
coming未来 out of a small -- we used to be resource-rich资源丰富 --
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来自一个小小的加勒比海国家。
13:37
Caribbean加勒比 country国家. Okay?
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虽然曾经资源丰富。了解吗?
13:39
And I asked the question,
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所以我问了这个问题。
13:41
who was getting得到 that three and a half billion十亿 dollars美元?
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35亿美金谁拿了?
13:45
And I want to pause暂停 again to bring带来 up context上下文,
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我还想再停一下,交待另一个背景。
13:47
because context上下文 helps帮助 us to get clarity明晰 understanding理解 this thing.
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借助上下文,
我们可以更好的理解这件事情。
13:50
There's a particular特定 individual个人 who is in the government政府 now.
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现在我要说到政府里某个特定的人。
13:53
The name名称 of the person doesn't matter.
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他的名字不重要。
13:55
And that person made制作 a career事业
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这个人依靠信息自由法案,
13:57
out of using运用 the Freedom自由 of Information信息 Act法案
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成就他的事业。
14:00
to advance提前 his political政治 cause原因.
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让他的政治生涯更进一步。
14:02
Okay? His name名称 isn't important重要.
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好吗?他的名字不重要。
14:05
I wouldn't不会 dignify it. I'm on a point.
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我不会强调它。我要讲一个重点。
14:07
The point is, that person made制作 a career事业 out of using运用
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重点是,那个人可以利用信息自由法案,
14:10
the Freedom自由 of Information信息 Act法案 to advance提前 his cause原因.
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去提升他的政治生涯!
14:13
And the most famous著名 case案件
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837323
2314
最广为人知的事件,
14:15
was what we came来了 to call the Secret秘密 Scholarship奖学金 Scandal丑闻,
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就是我们后来称为“秘密奖学金丑闻”。
14:18
where in fact事实 there was about 60 million百万 dollars美元 in government政府 money
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政府的钱有6000万
14:21
that had been dispersed分散 in a series系列 of scholarships奖学金,
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拨给了一系列的奖学基金,
14:24
and the scholarships奖学金 hadn't有没有 been advertised广告, and so and so on and so on.
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848291
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而这些奖学基金根本没有被宣传,如此之类的。
14:26
And he was able能够 to get the court法庭, using运用 that act法案 of Parliament议会,
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851015
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他得以进入法庭,运用议会法案,
14:29
Freedom自由 of Information信息 Act法案,
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信息自由法案,
14:31
to release发布 the information信息,
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855639
1977
来发布这一信息。
14:33
and I thought that was excellent优秀.
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我觉得他真的很高明。
14:36
Fantastic奇妙.
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860981
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厉害!
14:40
But you see, the question is this:
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864147
1950
但是各位请看,问题在于:
14:41
If it's right and proper正确 for us to use the Freedom自由 of Information信息 Act法案
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866097
4213
如果我们我们能运用信息自由法,
14:46
and to use the court法庭
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870310
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通过司法途径,
14:49
to force a disclosure泄露 about 60 million百万 dollars美元 in public上市 money,
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迫使6000万美金流向得以公开,
14:54
it must必须 be right and proper正确
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那我们迫使公开240亿的流向
14:56
for us to force a disclosure泄露 about 24 billion十亿 dollars美元.
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也是正确和适当的。
15:00
You see? But the Ministry of Finance金融,
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看到吗?但财政部
15:03
the Permanent常驻 Secretary秘书 of the Ministry of Finance金融,
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它的常务秘书回复我说,
15:04
wrote me and said to me, that information信息 is exempt豁免 too.
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那些信息享有豁免权。
15:07
You see? This is what we're dealing交易 with, okay?
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看到了吗?
这就是我们现在面对的,不是吗?
15:10
The third第三 thing I will tell you
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第三个问题:
15:12
is that I also asked
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我也问到,
15:15
for the directors董事 of CLCL Financial金融,
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899989
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我问财政部长
15:18
whether是否 in fact事实 they were making制造 filings申请 under our Integrity廉正 in Public上市 Life Act法案.
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他们有没有按照
”公务人员操守法案”(Public Life Act)归档,
15:23
We have an Integrity廉正 in Public上市 Life Act法案
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我们有这样一个法案,
15:24
as part部分 of our framework骨架 supposed应该 to safeguard保障 the nation's国家 interest利益.
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它是一个架构,用来保护国家利益。
15:29
And public上市 officials官员 are supposed应该 to file文件
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公务人员要求归档,
15:31
to say what it is they have in terms条款 of assets资产 and liabilities负债.
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915985
6465
对他们有的资产和负债进行申报。
15:38
And of course课程 I've since以来 discovered发现 that they're not filing备案,
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922450
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当然我发现他们并没有这么做。
15:40
and in fact事实 the Minister部长 of Finance金融 has not even asked them to file文件.
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2879
实际上财务部长
也没有要求他们这么做。
15:43
So here we have it. We have a situation情况 where
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4917
所以这就是我们面对的真实情况。
15:48
the basic基本 safeguards保障 of integrity廉正 and accountability问责
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932661
4894
我们身处一个对操守,责任心和透明化
15:53
and transparency透明度 have all been discarded丢弃.
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937555
1993
连基本的底线都被舍弃的环境里。
15:55
I've asked the question in the legal法律 and required需要 fashion时尚.
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2244
我使用合法的,请求的语气去问问题的。
15:57
It's been ignored忽视.
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2488
但是问题被忽视了。
16:00
The sort分类 of thing that motivated动机 us around Section部分 34,
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3175
这些事情激励我们为34节继续斗争。
16:03
we need to continue继续 to work on that. We can't forget忘记 it.
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2602
我们需要继续为之努力。
我们不能忘记。
16:05
I have defined定义 this as the single largest最大 expenditure支出 in the country's history历史.
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3598
我把它定义为国家历史上最大的支出。
16:09
It's also the single largest最大 example
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2581
在政府贪腐问题上
16:12
of public上市 corruption腐败 according根据 to this equation方程.
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5012
这也是最瞩目的案例。
16:17
And this is my reality现实 check.
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这是我了解到的事实。
16:20
Where you have an expenditure支出 of public上市 money
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2346
当公共财产的支出,
16:22
and it is without accountability问责
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2955
没有责任明确,
16:25
and it's without transparency透明度,
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不透明,
16:27
it will always be equal等于 to corruption腐败,
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2256
那它和贪腐是划等号的。
16:29
whether是否 you're in Russia俄国 or Nigeria尼日利亚 or Alaska阿拉斯加州,
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3205
不管你是在俄罗斯,尼日尼亚,还是阿拉斯加。
16:32
it will always be equal等于 to corruption腐败, and that is what we are dealing交易 with here.
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4200
它永远和贪腐划等划,
这是我们要面对的。
16:36
I'm going to continue继续 the work
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我要继续努力,
16:39
to press on, to get some resolution解析度
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4346
为财政部的这类事件
16:43
of those matters事项 at the Ministry of Finance金融.
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坚持抗争,直到获得解决。
16:45
If it is I have to go to court法庭 personally亲自, I will do that.
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即使需要法庭相见也在所不辞。
16:47
We will continue继续 to press on.
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我们会坚持到底。
16:48
We will continue继续 to work within JCCJCC.
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我们会在JCC里继续工作。
16:50
But I want to step back from the Trinidad特立尼达 and Tobago多巴哥 context上下文
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2701
但我想从刚才的背景里跳出来,
16:53
and bring带来 something new to the table
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讲一些另外的事情,
16:55
in terms条款 of an international国际 example.
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是关于一个国际案例。
16:57
We had the journalist记者 [Heather石南属] Brooke布鲁克 speaking请讲
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记者[Heather] Brooke 告诉我们
17:00
about her battle战斗 against反对 government政府 corruption腐败,
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2317
她与政府部门贪腐的斗争。
17:02
and she introduced介绍 me to this website网站, AlaveteliAlaveteli.comCOM.
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5437
她介绍我这个网站,Alaveteli.com
17:07
And AlaveteliAlaveteli.comCOM is a way for us to have an open打开 database数据库
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4670
这个网站让我们有一个公开的数据库,
17:12
for Freedom自由 of Information信息 applications应用,
359
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2779
关于信息自由应用的数据库。
17:15
and speak说话 with each other.
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我们可以互相交流。
17:17
I could see what you're applying应用 for.
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2237
我可以看到你的诉求。
17:19
You could see what I applied应用的 for and what replies回复 I got.
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3532
你们可以看到我的诉求
以及我得到的回应,
17:23
We can work on it together一起. We need to build建立 a collective集体 database数据库
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2936
我们可以一起为之努力。
我们需要建立一个共同的数据库,
17:26
and a collective集体 understanding理解 of where we are to go to the next下一个 point.
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3304
以及达成共识,下一步的目标在哪里。
17:29
We need to increase增加 the consciousness意识.
365
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1640
我们需要意识进一步的觉醒。
17:31
The final最后 thing I want to say is in relation关系 to this one,
366
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我想说的最后一件事情,
跟这个有关。
17:35
which哪一个 is a lovely可爱 website网站 from India印度
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1778
它是一个很可爱的印度网站:
17:36
called IPaidABribeIPaidABribe.comCOM.
368
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2442
IPaidABribe.com。
17:39
They have international国际 branches分支机构,
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1786
他们在世界各国都有分支,
17:41
and it's important重要 for us to tune into this one.
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2444
我们也应该参与其中,这很重要。
17:43
IPaidABribeIPaidABribe.comCOM is really important重要,
371
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2456
IPaidABribe.com 真的很棒,
17:46
a good one to log日志 on to and see.
372
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2416
值得我们去了解看看。
17:48
I'm going to pause暂停 there. I'm going to ask you for your courage勇气.
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我要在这里暂停一下。
我要你们拿出自己的勇气。
17:51
Discard丢弃 the first myth神话; it is a crime犯罪.
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2221
解除第一个迷思。
它的确是犯罪。
17:53
Discard丢弃 the second第二 myth神话; it is a big thing.
375
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2318
解除第二个迷思。
这是一件大事。
17:55
It's a huge巨大 problem问题. It's an economic经济 crime犯罪.
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2498
一件很严重的事。
它是一种经济犯罪。
17:58
And let us continue继续 working加工 together一起
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2048
让我们继续一起努力,
18:00
to betterment改善 in this situation情况,
378
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1467
让这一状况得到改善。
18:01
stability稳定性 and sustainability可持续性 in our society社会. Thank you.
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让我们的社会持续稳定地发展下去。
谢谢你们!
Translated by Celine Kan
Reviewed by Men Zhu

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Afra Raymond - Transparency activist
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago.

Why you should listen

Afra Raymond calls out government corruption, demanding more transparency and accountability from the leaders of Trinidad and Tobago. His work in recent years has focused on the CL Financial collapse of 2009 and subsequent government bailout, which Raymond says operated “with different laws of physics” than bailouts of financial institutions in other countries. Writing on topics like white-collar crime, good governance and national development, Raymond shows that corruption shouldn't be a given. He wrote the column “Property Matters” in The Business Guardian from 2004 through 2012. Now, he writes on his own website, AfraRaymond.com.

Raymond looks at corruption through his lens as an expert in the fields of property valuation, project appraisal, development planning and management. He is a Chartered Surveyor and Managing Director of Raymond & Pierre Limited and  was elected a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in January 2011. He has served on a number of Boards in various positions including Executive Member of the Federation of Black Housing Organizations (FBHO) in London, Board member of the Trinidad Building & Loan Association (TBLA), Director of EPL Properties Limited (EPL), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Eastern Credit Union (ECU) and Immediate Past-President of the Institute of Surveyors of Trinidad & Tobago (ISTT).

More profile about the speaker
Afra Raymond | Speaker | TED.com