TEDxLondon
Julia Shaw: A memory scientist's advice on reporting harassment and discrimination
朱莉娅 · 肖: 将记忆变为证据，骚扰与歧视将无处可藏
Filmed:
Readability: 4.7
1,624,490 views
记忆，是否能转化为罪行的直接证据？朱莉娅 · 肖将记忆科学和人工智能相结合，创造了一种新的方法，让我们可以更好地举报工作中的骚扰和歧视。她分享了三条经验，同时推荐了Spot，受害者可以通过这个免费的匿名网络工具上寻找支持。
Julia Shaw - Psychological scientist
Julia Shaw is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology. Full bio
Julia Shaw is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Me Too and Time's Up have highlighted
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“我也是”和“时间到了”这样的活动，
凸显了骚扰和歧视
在很多人的现实生活中
在很多人的现实生活中
00:16
that harassment and discrimination
are a shockingly common part
are a shockingly common part
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并不罕见，甚至还延续到了
00:21
of many people's lived reality,
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工作场所，这很令人震惊。
00:23
and that this reality
extends into the workplace.
extends into the workplace.
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00:26
Whether in tech or finance,
sports or the service industry,
sports or the service industry,
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不管在科技还是金融，
体育或其他服务行业，
体育或其他服务行业，
每天我们似乎都会听到另一个
关于在工作场所滥用权力，
关于在工作场所滥用权力，
00:31
every day we seem to hear another story
about an abuse of power
about an abuse of power
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或者表现出不当行为的故事。
00:34
or another grossly inappropriate
workplace behavior.
workplace behavior.
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00:38
People are furious.
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人们非常愤怒。
他们在推特和其他
社交媒体上呼吁改变现状。
社交媒体上呼吁改变现状。
00:40
They're taking to Twitter and social media
to voice that this must change.
to voice that this must change.
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00:45
But it's time to move beyond the hashtag.
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但现在，是时候在话题标签
之外采取更进一步的行动了。
之外采取更进一步的行动了。
是时候将骚扰和歧视行为举报给那些
00:47
It's time for us to report
harassment and discrimination
harassment and discrimination
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能够解决这些问题的人了。
00:51
to those who can fix this mess.
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00:53
And it's time for us
to talk about harassment
to talk about harassment
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也是时候，让我们以更广泛的方式
讨论骚扰：
00:56
in a more inclusive way:
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00:58
not just about sexual harassment,
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除了性骚扰，
01:00
but to encourage people to come forward
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同时也鼓励人们更进一步
01:02
about harassment and discrimination
based on other characteristics
based on other characteristics
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去讨论基于其他特征的骚扰和歧视，
比如针对年龄，残疾或种族的歧视。
01:05
such as age, disability or ethnicity.
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01:09
Because only together can we fix
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因为只有团结起来，我们才能修正
01:11
the underlying causes
and consequences of harassment.
and consequences of harassment.
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骚扰背后的原因和所导致的后果。
01:15
You see, most of us will,
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很明显，我们大多数人，
在生活中的某些时候，
01:17
at some point in our lives,
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多多少少会遭受办公室骚扰或歧视。
01:18
experience workplace
harassment or discrimination.
harassment or discrimination.
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研究显示，尤其是女性，有色人群，
01:21
Research shows that particularly
women, people of color
women, people of color
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以及公开承认自己是LGBTQI的
人群更容易成为攻击目标，
人群更容易成为攻击目标，
01:25
and people who openly identify as LGBTQI
are likely to be targeted,
are likely to be targeted,
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01:30
and for some people, this is a pervasive
and persistent part of their reality.
and persistent part of their reality.
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对其中有些人，这是他们
现实生活中普遍且持久的一部分。
现实生活中普遍且持久的一部分。
01:34
And for most of these people --
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并且对于大部分这些人——
01:36
98 percent according to some studies --
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根据一些研究，这个数字是98%——
01:39
most of these people will never
speak up and tell their employer.
speak up and tell their employer.
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绝大部分人不会站出来向雇主举报。
01:43
Too often, harassment and discrimination
is a lonely and isolating experience,
is a lonely and isolating experience,
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骚扰和歧视往往是一种
孤立和隔离的经历，
孤立和隔离的经历，
但我们需要帮助人们克服恐惧，
01:48
but we need to help people
out from under their desks.
out from under their desks.
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01:51
We need to empower people to have a voice.
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我们需要赋予人们发声的权力。
01:55
The reasonable first question
that everybody asks
that everybody asks
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一旦遭受了骚扰，
多数人通常会问的一个问题是：
“我现在应该做什么？”
“我现在应该做什么？”
01:57
once they've been harassed
is "What do I do now?"
is "What do I do now?"
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02:00
And this is what I want to help you with.
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这正是我想帮助你们的地方。
02:03
Navigating the barriers to reporting
can be absolutely dizzying.
can be absolutely dizzying.
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克服举报过程中的层层障碍
绝对会让人感动手足无措。
绝对会让人感动手足无措。
02:09
How can we speak up in a society
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我们该如何在经常
抹黑或削弱我们经历的
社会中发出自己的声音？
社会中发出自己的声音？
02:11
that too often discredits
or diminishes our experiences?
or diminishes our experiences?
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我们该如何在经常
02:14
How can we speak up in a society
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把这些情况视为我们
罪有应得的社会中发出声音？
罪有应得的社会中发出声音？
02:17
that is likely to be
retributive towards us?
retributive towards us?
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我们该如何应对周遭的沉默？
02:21
How can we deal with the silencing
that goes on all around us?
that goes on all around us?
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02:27
Making matters worse,
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更糟的是，
02:29
often our memories are the only
evidence we have of what happened.
evidence we have of what happened.
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通常我们的记忆是发生过的
事情的唯一证据。
事情的唯一证据。
02:34
Now, here's where I can come in.
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这就是我可以介入的地方。
我是记忆科学家。
02:36
I'm a memory scientist,
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我专门研究我们如何记住
重要的情感事件。
重要的情感事件。
02:37
and I specialize in how we remember
important emotional events.
important emotional events.
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02:42
I've particularly focused
on how the memory interview process
on how the memory interview process
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我特别关注记忆访谈过程
是如何严重影响我们在
举报中所列举的证据的质量。
举报中所列举的证据的质量。
02:45
can severely impact the evidentiary
quality of reports that we produce.
quality of reports that we produce.
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02:51
A bad interview can lead you
to forget details or misremember them
to forget details or misremember them
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糟糕的访谈会让你
忘记或者记错细节，
忘记或者记错细节，
而好的访谈会让你的
生活变得更好。
生活变得更好。
02:55
while a good interview can forever
change your life for the better.
change your life for the better.
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02:59
After looking at lab reports
and working,
and working,
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在看了实验报告，
并在法庭和研究环境中
分析过这个问题后，
分析过这个问题后，
03:03
studying this issue both in the courtroom
and in research settings,
and in research settings,
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03:07
I've dissected all the different things
that can go wrong with our memories
that can go wrong with our memories
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我已经剖析了我们记忆中
所有可能出错，
所有可能出错，
并真正会威胁到你的情况的东西。
03:12
that can really threaten your case.
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现在我把注意力转向帮助人们
03:14
And now I'm turning my attention
to helping people tackle
to helping people tackle
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解决工作场所骚扰和歧视的
记录和举报问题。
记录和举报问题。
03:17
recording and reporting of workplace
harassment and discrimination.
harassment and discrimination.
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03:22
There's three things that I've learned
from my research on this
from my research on this
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假如你在工作中
遭受了骚扰和歧视，
遭受了骚扰和歧视，
你可以立即应用
03:25
that you can immediately apply
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我在这项研究中学到的三点经验。
03:26
if you've been harassed
or discriminated against at work.
or discriminated against at work.
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03:30
I want to help you
turn your memory into evidence --
turn your memory into evidence --
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我想要帮助你们
把记忆变成证据——
把记忆变成证据——
03:34
evidence that even
a memory skeptic like me
a memory skeptic like me
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这种连我这样的证据怀疑者
都找不出漏洞的证据。
03:36
is unlikely to find fault with.
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03:39
First of all, James Comey had it right.
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首先，詹姆斯 · 科米是对的。
这位前联邦调查局的局长
曾坐在自己的车上，
曾坐在自己的车上，
03:42
The former head of the FBI
used to sit in his car,
used to sit in his car,
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在与总统的会面后
把自己反锁在车内，
把自己反锁在车内，
03:45
lock himself in after meetings
with the president
with the president
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写下他能回想到的一切细节。
03:48
and write down absolutely everything
he could remember about what happened.
he could remember about what happened.
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03:52
The now-famous recordings
proved to be quite useful later on.
proved to be quite useful later on.
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这段已经人尽皆知的录音
后来被证明非常有用。
后来被证明非常有用。
03:57
Be like Comey.
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大家可以像科米那样做。
03:58
Now, you don't need to lock yourself
into your car to do this,
into your car to do this,
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不过，你并不需要把自己
也这样锁在车内，
也这样锁在车内，
但我想请你在事情发生后
04:01
but please, immediately
after something happens,
after something happens,
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立刻记下发生了什么。
04:04
I want you to contemporaneously
record what happened.
record what happened.
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04:07
And do this before talking
to anyone else about it.
to anyone else about it.
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在此之前，请不要
跟任何其他人谈论这件事。
跟任何其他人谈论这件事。
04:09
Because as soon as your share your story
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因为一旦你跟朋友或家人，
04:11
with friends or family
or colleagues or therapists,
or colleagues or therapists,
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同事或诊疗师分享你的故事，
你就有可能扭曲或
改变你对事件的记忆。
改变你对事件的记忆。
04:14
you have the potential to distort
or change your memory of the event.
or change your memory of the event.
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04:18
Uncontaminated, contemporaneous
evidence is worth gold.
evidence is worth gold.
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未受污染的即时证据价值连城。
04:22
Second: the type of evidence matters.
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第二点：证据的类型很关键。
04:26
Sure, you can do a handwritten
note of what happens,
note of what happens,
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当然，你可以手写下发生的事情，
但你如何向人们证明
你写下的时间？
你写下的时间？
04:28
but how do you prove when you wrote it?
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04:31
Instead, pull out
your computer or smartphone
your computer or smartphone
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反之，拿出你的电脑或智能手机，
然后做个有时间戳的笔记，
04:33
and make a note that's time-stamped,
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这样你就能够证明是
在这个时间记录的。
在这个时间记录的。
04:36
where you can prove
this was recorded at this time.
this was recorded at this time.
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04:39
Contemporaneous,
time-stamped evidence is better.
time-stamped evidence is better.
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即时的，有时间戳的证据要更好。
04:45
Finally, make sure what you're writing
down is actually relevant.
down is actually relevant.
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最后，确保你所写下的
内容是切实相关的。
内容是切实相关的。
04:50
Too often, we see that people
bring out Facebook messages,
bring out Facebook messages,
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往往，我们看到
人们拿出脸书消息，
人们拿出脸书消息，
他们拿出标有时间戳的证据，
04:54
they bring out time-stamped
pieces of evidence,
pieces of evidence,
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但遗憾的是，这些证据不是特别相关，
04:56
but sure, they're
not particularly relevant,
not particularly relevant,
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起不到显著的作用。
04:59
they're not particularly useful.
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05:00
It's easy to write an emotional,
unstructured account of what happened --
unstructured account of what happened --
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对所发生的事写下一篇情绪化，
没条理的描述是很容易的——
没条理的描述是很容易的——
这一点可以理解，因为
这是一段情感经历——
这是一段情感经历——
05:04
understandable because
it's an emotional experience --
it's an emotional experience --
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但这可能并不是以后调查所需要的
05:08
but those might not actually be
the details that matter later on
the details that matter later on
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重要细节。
05:11
for an investigation.
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05:13
Write down this list.
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写下这个清单。
05:15
I want you to keep track of this
and simply fill in the blanks.
and simply fill in the blanks.
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我想让你们记住这一点，
只需要填空就好。
只需要填空就好。
05:20
First of all, what happened?
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首先，发生了什么？
要尽可能详细的
05:22
In as much detail as possible,
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描述当时的情景，
05:24
describe the situation,
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如果可能的话，在事情
发生的当天就去做。
发生的当天就去做。
05:25
and do it on the day it happened
if at all possible.
if at all possible.
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第二，谁在那里？
05:28
Second, who was there?
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有没有目击者？
05:29
Were there any witnesses?
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05:31
This becomes crucial potentially later on.
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这一点在后续可能会变得至关重要。
事情发生的确切时间和日期是什么？
05:33
What exact time and date did this happen?
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还有地点。发生在哪里？
05:36
What location? Where did this happen?
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事情发生后，你告诉了谁？
05:38
Who did you tell after the event?
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事情发生时和发生后，
你感受如何？
你感受如何？
05:40
How did it make you feel
during and after it happened?
during and after it happened?
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有没有诸如WhatsApp，照片或
电子邮件这样的任何其他证据
电子邮件这样的任何其他证据
05:43
And is there any other evidence
such as WhatsApps, photos or emails
such as WhatsApps, photos or emails
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可以让你的经历更加可信？
05:48
that might lend
more credibility to your case.
more credibility to your case.
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05:52
These are all details that are incredibly
easy to record contemporaneously
easy to record contemporaneously
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这些都是非常容易
即时记录下来的细节，
即时记录下来的细节，
但也可能很快就被忘记了。
05:56
but are also incredibly easy
to forget later on.
to forget later on.
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05:58
Humans, according to research,
often overestimate their ability
often overestimate their ability
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有研究表明，人类往往高估了他们
后续回想起重要情感细节的能力。
06:02
to remember important
emotional details later on.
emotional details later on.
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那就要假设你会忘记，
06:05
Assume that you're going to forget.
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06:07
Assume you have to write it down.
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假设你必须把它写下来。
06:11
Now, these three pieces of advice
are a good start,
are a good start,
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这三个建议开了个好头，
06:15
but of course they don't overcome
a lot of the other barriers to reporting.
a lot of the other barriers to reporting.
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不过当然，它们没法克服
举报过程中的许多其他障碍。
举报过程中的许多其他障碍。
06:19
According to the Equality
and Human Rights Commission,
and Human Rights Commission,
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根据人权和平等委员会
2018 年发布的报告，
06:22
which published a report in 2018,
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06:25
there's one key recommendation
to overcome some of the other fears
to overcome some of the other fears
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有一个重要建议可以帮助你克服
向雇主举报此类事件时
经常出现的其他一些恐惧。
经常出现的其他一些恐惧。
06:28
often associated with reporting
these kinds of incidents to your employer.
these kinds of incidents to your employer.
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06:33
One piece of advice that they made?
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他们提出了一条什么样的建议呢？
06:35
Have an online, anonymous reporting tool.
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使用在线的匿名举报工具。
06:39
Only that way, they say,
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他们说，只有这样，
06:40
can you truly overcome many
of the fears associated with reporting.
of the fears associated with reporting.
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你才能真正克服与
举报相关的许多恐惧。
举报相关的许多恐惧。
06:44
Now, in line with this,
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有了这一点，
并且了解了周遭发生的一切，
06:46
and informed by what
was happening all around me
was happening all around me
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06:49
and taking and applying
the memory science,
the memory science,
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同时采纳并应用记忆科学，
这个我从事了多年的科学，
06:52
the science that I had
been doing for many years,
been doing for many years,
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06:55
I sat down with a number of people
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我跟许多人
06:57
and we together created TalkToSpot.com.
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联合创建了TalkToSpot.com。
07:01
Spot is an online,
anonymous reporting tool
anonymous reporting tool
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Spot是个在线的匿名举报工具，
可以帮助你记录和
举报工作场所的骚扰和歧视。
举报工作场所的骚扰和歧视。
07:04
that helps you record and report
workplace harassment and discrimination.
workplace harassment and discrimination.
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你可以匿名使用，
07:07
It allows you to do it anonymously,
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完全免费，
07:09
it allows you to do it for free,
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并且是完全基于证据的。
07:11
and it's completely evidence-based.
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你不需要跟人谈话，
07:13
You don't have to talk to a person,
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不必担心别人的评判，
07:14
there's no fear of judgment,
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也可以随时随地使用。
07:16
and you can do it
whenever and wherever you need.
whenever and wherever you need.
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07:21
Now you have the power to walk through
an evidence-based memory interview.
an evidence-based memory interview.
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现在你有了接受基于证据的
记忆访谈的能力。
记忆访谈的能力。
07:26
Now, this is called a cognitive interview.
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这被称为认知访谈。
这跟警察正常工作时
采用的是同一种技巧。
采用的是同一种技巧。
07:28
This is the same technique that police use
when they're doing their job properly.
when they're doing their job properly.
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所以在最好的情况下，
07:33
So in best-case scenarios,
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经历重要感情事件的人
07:35
people who are being asked
about important emotional events
about important emotional events
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会被用类似认知访谈的方式进行询问。
07:38
are being asked in line
with the cognitive interview.
with the cognitive interview.
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07:41
Now, this walks you through
all the relevant information
all the relevant information
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这个工具会引导你
浏览所有相关信息，
浏览所有相关信息，
所以最后，在你跟机器人谈完后——
07:45
so that at the end,
after you've talked to the bot --
after you've talked to the bot --
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也就是自动消息系统——
07:48
which is an automatic messaging system --
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在你跟机器人聊完后，
07:51
after you've talked to the bot,
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它会生成带时间戳和
安全签名的PDF记录，
安全签名的PDF记录，
07:53
it generates a PDF record
that's time-stamped and securely signed
that's time-stamped and securely signed
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可以保存下来作为证据
以免你后面想要分享，
以免你后面想要分享，
07:56
that you can keep for yourself as evidence
in case you want to share it later,
in case you want to share it later,
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或者立刻向你的雇主提交。
08:00
or you can submit it
to your employer right away.
to your employer right away.
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08:03
And in line with recommendations,
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根据建议，
你也可以匿名向你的雇主提交。
08:05
you can submit it
to your employer anonymously.
to your employer anonymously.
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08:09
But a reporting tool is only as useful
as the audience that's listening.
as the audience that's listening.
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但一个举报工具只有在
听众愿意倾听时才有用。
听众愿意倾听时才有用。
08:13
So if your employer
is truly committed to change,
is truly committed to change,
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所以如果你的雇主真的想要改变，
我们已经决定也为他们
提供回应工具。
提供回应工具。
08:16
we've decided to also offer them
the tool to respond.
the tool to respond.
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所以如果各个组织与我们合作，
08:20
So if organizations work with us
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08:23
and are truly committed to doing something
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真正对办公室骚扰
和歧视做点事情，
08:25
about workplace harassment
and discrimination,
and discrimination,
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他们也能够回应你，
即便你选择匿名。
即便你选择匿名。
08:27
they're also able to respond to you
even if you've chosen to stay anonymous.
even if you've chosen to stay anonymous.
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我们认为，你能够跟雇主
一起努力来解决这个问题
一起努力来解决这个问题
08:32
We think it's important that you can work
together with your employer
together with your employer
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是非常重要的。
08:35
to tackle this issue.
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08:38
We think that everybody wins
when we bring light into this dark issue.
when we bring light into this dark issue.
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我们认为，当我们为解决这一问题
带来曙光，每个人都是受益者。
带来曙光，每个人都是受益者。
不管这件事发生在你身上，
还是发生在你认识的人身上，
还是发生在你认识的人身上，
08:43
Whether it happens to you
or to someone you know,
or to someone you know,
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记录和举报发生的事情
08:46
recording and reporting what happened
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08:47
can really improve
how we talk about these issues.
how we talk about these issues.
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可以真正改善我们
如何谈论这些问题。
如何谈论这些问题。
如果你是个组织，
08:52
And if you're an organization,
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这是一个让你的员工接触
08:53
this is a call to give
your employees access
your employees access
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08:56
to better and more effective
reporting mechanisms.
reporting mechanisms.
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更好，更有效的举报机制的倡议。
08:59
We know that the current methods
that are used in most organizations
that are used in most organizations
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我们知道大部分组织
目前所使用的方法
目前所使用的方法
不是很有效。
09:04
don't work effectively.
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09:06
It's time to change that if you're
committed to inclusion and diversity.
committed to inclusion and diversity.
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如果你致力于包容和多样性，
那么是时候改变这种状况了。
那么是时候改变这种状况了。
09:13
It's time for us
to celebrate our diversity.
to celebrate our diversity.
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是时候庆祝我们的多样性了。
09:17
It's time for us to give a voice
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现在是为那些长期以来
被剥夺发言权的人
发声的时候了。
发声的时候了。
09:20
to those who have for too long
been denied one.
been denied one.
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09:23
It's time for us to celebrate
those who come forward,
those who come forward,
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现在是赞美那些挺身而出，
即使他们觉得需要保持匿名——
09:26
even if they feel
they need to stay anonymous --
they need to stay anonymous --
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隐姓埋名的举报者的时候了。
09:29
to stay masked to do so.
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是时候进行一场举报的革命了。
09:31
It's time for a reporting revolution.
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09:34
Thank you.
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谢谢。
（鼓掌，呐喊）
09:35
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julia Shaw - Psychological scientistJulia Shaw is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology.
Why you should listen
In 2017 Dr. Julia Shaw cofounded the memory science and artificial intelligence start-up Spot. Spot helps employees report workplace harassment and discrimination and empowers organizations to build a more inclusive and respectful work environment.
In 2016 Shaw published her bestselling book The Memory Illusion, which has appeared in 18 languages. Her second book, Evil: The Science Behind Humanity's Dark Side, was released in Germany in September 2018 and was a Der Spiegel top-20 best seller. She is also a regular contributor to Scientific American.
Besides her research, Shaw is a regular keynote speaker on the topic of memory hacking and artificial intelligence. She also consults as an expert on legal cases, particularly cases involving historical allegations.
Julia Shaw | Speaker | TED.com