TED2017
Shonda Rhimes and Cyndi Stivers: The future of storytelling
珊达·瑞姆斯和辛迪·斯蒂弗斯: 说故事的未来
Filmed:
Readability: 3.4
1,266,210 views
《我们大家都有一种迫切的需求去看故事，去讲故事... 去谈一些能让我们每一个人都意识到
自己在这个世界上不是孤身一人的事情》，电视巨人珊达·瑞姆斯说。自《实习医生格蕾》开播以来珊达·瑞姆斯就成为了电视界的主导力量。在这场与Ted Residency的主任辛迪·斯蒂弗斯的访谈中，珊达·瑞姆斯谈论了关于媒体网络的未来，和她是如何运用她的叙事能力使其成为一种有益的力量，以及一个被称作《阿米什人的夏天》的有趣的概念，还有更多。
Shonda Rhimes - Writer, producer
With the runaway success of shows like Scandal and Grey’s Anatomy, Shonda Rhimes has become one of Hollywood’s most powerful icons. Full bioCyndi Stivers - Encourager-in-chief, TED Residency
Cyndi Stivers curates special events for TED and often serves as a board member, adviser, business strategist and startup coach. Full bio
With the runaway success of shows like Scandal and Grey’s Anatomy, Shonda Rhimes has become one of Hollywood’s most powerful icons. Full bioCyndi Stivers - Encourager-in-chief, TED Residency
Cyndi Stivers curates special events for TED and often serves as a board member, adviser, business strategist and startup coach. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
辛迪：嗯，讲故事的未来
00:12
Cyndi Stivers: So, future of storytelling.
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在我们说到未来之前
00:14
Before we do the future,
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我们先来谈谈，对于讲故事来说，有什么是永远都不会改变的
00:16
let's talk about what is never
going to change about storytelling.
going to change about storytelling.
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珊达：什么永远不会变
00:19
Shonda Rhimes:
What's never going to change.
What's never going to change.
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很明显，我认为好的故事永远不会改变
00:22
Obviously, I think good stories
are never going to change,
are never going to change,
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大家相聚在一起然后互相交换故事的需求
00:24
the need for people to gather together
and exchange their stories
and exchange their stories
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还有谈论一些大家觉得普遍发生的事情的这种需求不会变
00:28
and to talk about the things
that feel universal,
that feel universal,
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00:31
the idea that we all feel
a compelling need to watch stories,
a compelling need to watch stories,
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就是我们大家都有一种迫切的需要
去看故事，去讲故事，去分享故事
00:34
to tell stories, to share stories --
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00:38
sort of the gathering around the campfire
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就像是围坐在篝火旁
00:40
to discuss the things
that tell each one of us
that tell each one of us
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去谈一些能让我们每一个人都意识到
00:42
that we are not alone in the world.
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我们在这个世界上不是孤身一人的事情
00:44
Those things to me
are never going to change.
are never going to change.
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刚刚提到的那些事，对于我来说，是永远不会变的
00:47
That essence of storytelling
is never going to change.
is never going to change.
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说故事里的那种本质是永远不会变的
00:50
CS: OK. In preparation
for this conversation,
for this conversation,
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辛迪：好。在准备这场访谈的过程中
我联系到了Susan Lyne
00:53
I checked in with Susan Lyne,
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00:55
who was running ABC Entertainment
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她在你做《实习医生格蕾》的时候
曾是ABC娱乐公司的负责人
00:57
when you were working
on "Grey's Anatomy" --
on "Grey's Anatomy" --
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珊达：没错
01:00
SR: Yes.
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辛迪：她说她对你选角的过程
01:01
CS: And she said that there was
this indelible memory she had
this indelible memory she had
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有着极其深刻的印象
01:04
of your casting process,
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在没有跟任何一个监制人谈过的情况下
01:06
where without discussing it
with any of the executives,
with any of the executives,
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你叫了人过去读你的剧本
01:09
you got people coming in
to read for your scripts,
to read for your scripts,
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他们中的每一个人都展现了十足的人类的多样性
01:11
and every one of them
was the full range of humanity,
was the full range of humanity,
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你没有以任何方式干预任何人
01:15
you did not type anyone in any way,
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这个是完全出人意料的
01:19
and that it was completely surprising.
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01:22
So she said, in addition
to retraining the studio executives,
to retraining the studio executives,
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所以她说，除了重新教育了高管制片人以外，
她觉得你还...
01:26
you also, she feels,
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01:28
and I think this is -- I agree,
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我觉得这个... ... 我赞同
重新培养了美国电视观众的期望
01:31
retrained the expectations
of the American TV audience.
of the American TV audience.
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01:36
So what else does the audience
not yet realize that it needs?
not yet realize that it needs?
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所以还有什么别的是观众们还没有意识到他们自己需要的吗？
01:42
SR: What else does it not yet realize?
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珊达：还有什么别的是他们还没意识到的
其实，我们不认为我们已经到了能思考这类问题的程度
01:44
Well, I mean, I don't think
we're anywhere near there yet.
we're anywhere near there yet.
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我的意思是，我们现在还处在一个
01:47
I mean, we're still in a place
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01:49
in which we're far, far behind what looks
like the real world in actuality.
like the real world in actuality.
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远远落后于现实中的世界的地方
我带进来一帮看起来
01:56
I wasn't bringing in
a bunch of actors
a bunch of actors
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各有千秋的演员
01:59
who looked very different from one another
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并不仅仅是因为我想去强调什么
02:02
simply because I was
trying to make a point,
trying to make a point,
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而且我也没有想去做任何特别的事
02:04
and I wasn't trying
to do anything special.
to do anything special.
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02:07
It never occurred to me
that that was new, different or weird.
that that was new, different or weird.
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我从来没有想过我做的这个是新颖的,不同的或是奇怪的
我带进来这些演员只是因为我觉得他们是有趣的人
02:11
I just brought in actors
because I thought they were interesting
because I thought they were interesting
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对我来说，在好一段时间里，我都没意识到
02:14
and to me, the idea that it
was completely surprising to everybody --
was completely surprising to everybody --
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这样做会让大家觉得出人意料
02:18
I didn't know that for a while.
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02:20
I just thought: these are the actors
I want to see play these parts.
I want to see play these parts.
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我当时只是想，这些演员我想看他们演这些部分
我想看一下他们读剧本的时候是什么样子
02:23
I want to see what
they look like if they read.
they look like if they read.
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然后我们来看看这样做会如何
02:25
We'll see what happens.
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所以我觉得神奇的事就是
02:26
So I think the interesting thing
that happens is
that happens is
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当你通过另一个角度看这个世界的时候
02:30
that when you look at the world
through another lens,
through another lens,
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当你不再是那个通常应该领导这些事情的人的时候
02:32
when you're not the person
normally in charge of things,
normally in charge of things,
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事情会有不一样的结果
02:37
it just comes out a different way.
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02:40
CS: So you now have
this big machine that you run,
this big machine that you run,
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辛迪：所以你现在有一个大机构是你自己像个
巨人一样在经营的，如大家所知，她在去年演讲时说过
02:44
as a titan -- as you know,
last year when she gave her talk --
last year when she gave her talk --
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她真的是个巨人
02:47
she's a titan.
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02:49
So what do you think
is going to happen as we go on?
is going to happen as we go on?
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所以，随着我们这样继续下去，你觉得会发生些什么呢
02:53
There's a huge amount of money
involved in producing these shows.
involved in producing these shows.
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这些电视节目的制作涉及到大笔的金钱
02:58
While the tools of making stories
have gone and gotten greatly democratized,
have gone and gotten greatly democratized,
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虽然制作故事的方法已经变得非常的民主化了
03:04
there's still this large distribution:
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但是，还是会有这样一种大的分布存在
03:06
people who rent networks,
who rent the audience to advertisers
who rent the audience to advertisers
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比如那些把电视网，把观众租给广告商们
03:12
and make it all pay.
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然后由此来赚钱的人
你是怎么看待现在这种
03:13
How do you see the business model changing
now that anyone can be a storyteller?
now that anyone can be a storyteller?
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“任何人都可以成为说故事的人”的商业模式的转变呢
03:19
SR: I think it's changing every day.
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珊达：我觉得模式是每天都在变化的
我想说，我们现在正在经历的这种飞快的转变是很棒的
03:20
I mean, the rapid, rapid change
that's happening is amazing.
that's happening is amazing.
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而且我感觉... ...
03:23
And I feel -- the panic is palpable,
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由此产生的恐慌是明显的
03:27
and I don't mean that in a bad way.
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但我并没有说这个不好
我觉得这个是挺令人兴奋的
03:28
I think it's kind of exciting.
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现在貌似有一种平衡正在建立
03:30
The idea that there's
sort of an equalizer happening,
sort of an equalizer happening,
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这在某种程度上意味着任何人都可以做出些什么成果
03:35
that sort of means that anybody
can make something, is wonderful.
can make something, is wonderful.
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这个概念还是挺好的
03:39
I think there's some scary in the idea
that you can't find the good work now.
that you can't find the good work now.
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我认为目前找不到好的作品这个想法还是有些可怕的
03:44
There's so much work out there.
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毕竟现在到处都有那么多的作品
现在，在任何时间，任何地点，
03:46
I think there's something like
417 dramas on television right now
417 dramas on television right now
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我认为都有大概417个节目在电视上播出
03:49
at any given time in any given place,
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但是你却找不到
03:52
but you can't find them.
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你找不到那些好的
03:53
You can't find the good ones.
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因为每个人都可以做些什么，所以就有了很多不好的作品
03:54
So there's a lot of bad stuff out there
because everybody can make something.
because everybody can make something.
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这就有点像是每个人都画了一幅画
03:58
It's like if everybody painted a painting.
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但是你知道，这其中并没有多少好画家
04:00
You know, there's not
that many good painters.
that many good painters.
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现在想找到好的故事，好的节目
04:03
But finding the good stories,
the good shows,
the good shows,
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真的是难上加难
04:06
is harder and harder and harder.
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因为如果AMC这里有一个小节目
04:07
Because if you have
one tiny show over here on AMC
one tiny show over here on AMC
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然后这里那里，什么其他的地方又有几个的话
04:10
and one tiny show over here over there,
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就更加难知道到好的作品在哪里了
04:12
finding where they are
becomes much harder.
becomes much harder.
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所以我觉得挖掘到有价值的作品，
04:14
So I think that ferreting out the gems
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然后还要找到是谁制作了这些优秀的网络作品
04:16
and finding out who made
the great webisode and who made this,
the great webisode and who made this,
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真的是... ...
04:19
it's -- I mean, think
about the poor critics
about the poor critics
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想想那些可怜的影评人
04:21
who now are spending 24 hours a day
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现在为了看完所有的东西
每天24个小时都被困在家里
04:23
trapped in their homes
watching everything.
watching everything.
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这在现在这种情况下真不是份简单的工作
04:25
It's not an easy job right now.
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娱乐发行系统正在变的越来越庞大
04:27
So the distribution engines
are getting more and more vast,
are getting more and more vast,
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然而找到对每位观众都合适的
04:31
but finding the good programming
for everybody in the audience
for everybody in the audience
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节目编排却变得越来越难
04:34
is getting harder.
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这不像是在新闻界
04:35
And unlike the news,
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所有的事情都能被筛除到你是谁
04:37
where everything's getting
winnowed down to just who you are,
winnowed down to just who you are,
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电视这方面好像正在变的...
04:40
television seems to be getting --
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04:42
and by television I mean anything
you can watch, television shows on --
you can watch, television shows on --
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说是电视，我的意思其实是任何我们可以观看的东西
好像正在变的越来越广泛
04:46
seems to be getting
wider and wider and wider.
wider and wider and wider.
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如此一来，任何人都可以制作故事
04:48
And so anybody's making stories,
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而天才有时候就难以被发现了
04:51
and the geniuses are sometimes hidden.
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这个寻找的过程会越来越艰难
04:53
But it's going to be harder to find,
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然后，在某个时间点，这个模式会崩溃
04:56
and at some point that will collapse.
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人们一直在谈论“电视潮”
04:58
People keep talking about peak TV.
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我不知道这个模式的崩溃什么时候会开始
05:00
I don't know when that's going to happen.
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我认为，在某个时刻，它会开始崩溃一点
05:02
I think at some point
it'll collapse a little bit
it'll collapse a little bit
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然后大家大概就会一起回到原点
05:04
and we'll, sort of, come back together.
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我不知道网络电视是不是也会这样
05:06
I don't know if it
will be network television.
will be network television.
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我不清楚这种模式是不是可以持续发展下去
05:08
I don't know if that model is sustainable.
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05:11
CS: What about the model
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辛迪：那亚马逊和Netflix目前正在
05:13
that Amazon and Netflix are throwing
a lot of money around right now.
a lot of money around right now.
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投入大量资金的这个模式会怎么样呢
05:19
SR: That is true.
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珊达：这个是真的
我觉得这是个很有趣的模式
05:21
I think it's an interesting model.
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这个模式它有一些令人激动的东西
05:23
I think there's
something exciting about it.
something exciting about it.
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对内容创作者来说，这个模式是有些令人激动的
05:25
For content creators, I think
there's something exciting about it.
there's something exciting about it.
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对这个世界来说，也是
05:28
For the world, I think
there's something exciting about it.
there's something exciting about it.
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有些节目现在能以多种语言播出
05:31
The idea that there are programs now
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05:33
that can be in multiple languages
with characters from all over the world
with characters from all over the world
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能有来自世界各地的角色
它们吸引人，而且能在同一时间让所有人都收看到
05:36
that are appealing and come out
for everybody at the same time
for everybody at the same time
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这个概念是使人兴奋的
05:39
is exciting.
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我觉得电视目前所能呈现的
05:41
I mean, I think the international sense
that television can now take on
that television can now take on
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这个国际化在我看里是合情合理的
05:45
makes sense to me,
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就是节目编排方面可以呈现的这种国际意识
05:47
that programming can now take on.
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在很大程度上，电视作品被制作出来是为了...
05:48
Television so much is made for, like --
here's our American audience.
here's our American audience.
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比如，这里目标是美国观众
我们做了这些节目
05:51
We make these shows,
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然后抱着乐观的希望
05:53
and then they shove them
out into the world
out into the world
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把这些节目推广到全世界
05:55
and hope for the best,
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而没有真正的考虑到美国并不是一切
05:56
as opposed to really thinking
about the fact that America is not it.
about the fact that America is not it.
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我想说的是，虽然我们很为自己自豪，但是这不是大家想要的
06:00
I mean, we love ourselves
and everything, but it's not i.
and everything, but it's not i.
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我们应该考虑到一件事
06:03
And we should be
taking into account the fact
taking into account the fact
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就是在我们在说故事的时候
06:06
that there are all
of these other places in the world
of these other places in the world
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06:09
that we should be interested in
while we're telling stories.
while we're telling stories.
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也应该在意一下世界上的那些其他的地方
这样会让这个世界更小一点
06:12
It makes the world smaller.
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06:15
I don't know.
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我也不太清楚
我认为这样会推进世界是广泛的，
06:16
I think it pushes forward the idea
that the world is a universal place,
that the world is a universal place,
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以及我们的故事是普遍的这样一种概念
06:21
and our stories become universal things.
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我们不再是特殊的
06:23
We stop being other.
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06:25
CS: You've pioneered, as far as I can see,
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辛迪：据我所见，你也成功地
开创了有意思的方法来发行新节目
06:29
interesting ways to launch new shows, too.
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你在2012年发行《丑闻》这部剧的时候
06:32
I mean, when you
launched "Scandal" in 2012,
launched "Scandal" in 2012,
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它在推特上有着令人吃惊的如海啸般的广泛的支持
06:35
there was this amazing groundswell
of support on Twitter
of support on Twitter
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点赞的数量也是前所未见的
06:38
the likes of which nobody had seen before.
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你还有没有什么其他的杀手锏
06:41
Do you have any other
tricks up your sleeve
tricks up your sleeve
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可以用在你下一个要发行的节目上
06:44
when you launch your next one?
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你觉得，就这方面来说，会发生些什么呢
06:46
What do you think
will happen in that regard?
will happen in that regard?
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珊达：我们确实有一些有趣的点子
06:48
SR: We do have some interesting ideas.
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我们有一个叫《悲恋再续》的剧要在这个这个夏天开播
06:51
We have a show called "Still Star-Crossed"
coming out this summer.
coming out this summer.
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对于它，我们有一些有意思的想法
06:54
We have some interesting ideas for that.
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我不确定我们是否能适时地实现那些想法
06:56
I'm not sure if we're going
to be able to do them in time.
to be able to do them in time.
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不过我觉得它们都很有意思
06:58
I thought they were fun.
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但是我们会实时推特我们节目的这个想法
07:00
But the idea
that we would live-tweet our show
that we would live-tweet our show
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真的只是我们自己觉得这样会很有趣
07:02
was really just us thinking
that would be fun.
that would be fun.
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我们没有预料到剧评人们会开始跟着我们一起实时推特
07:04
We didn't realize that the critics
would start to live-tweet along with us.
would start to live-tweet along with us.
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而且粉丝们... 更多的人加入到这个当中，
07:08
But the fans -- getting people
to be a part of it,
to be a part of it,
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让这个变的更像是一个篝火晚会
07:10
making it more of a campfire --
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你懂的，当大家都在推特上
07:12
you know, when you're all
on Twitter together
on Twitter together
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都在一起互相交流
07:14
and you're all talking together,
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这更像是一种共同的体验
07:15
it is more of a shared experience,
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找到能带来这种体验的其他的方法
07:17
and finding other ways
to make that possible
to make that possible
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以及找到一些其他的能让大家都一起投入互动的点子
07:19
and finding other ways
to make people feel engaged
to make people feel engaged
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是很重要的
07:22
is important.
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辛迪：现在有那么多的各色各样的人都在创作故事
07:24
CS: So when you have
all those different people making stories
all those different people making stories
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但他们当中只有少数才能突破重围
07:28
and only some of them
are going to break through
are going to break through
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以某种方式获得观众的青睐
07:31
and get that audience somehow,
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关于说故事的人的薪酬这一方面，你是怎么想的
07:33
how do you think
storytellers will get paid?
storytellers will get paid?
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珊达：我其实一直以来也都很为这件事所困扰
07:36
SR: I actually have been struggling
with this concept as well.
with this concept as well.
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这会不会发展成为由订阅观众决定的模式呢
07:39
Is it going to be a subscriber model?
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人们会不会说，比如，我会去看这个特定的人的节目
07:41
Are people going to say, like, I'm going
to watch this particular person's shows,
to watch this particular person's shows,
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然后我们以后就会以这种模式进行下去了吗
07:45
and that's how we're going to do it?
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辛迪：那我们应该要买一个去Shonda地盘的通行证了，是吧
07:47
CS: I think we should buy
a passport to Shondaland. Right?
a passport to Shondaland. Right?
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珊达：不太清楚，这看起来不错，对我来说会是很大的工作量
07:50
SR: I don't know about that, but yeah.
That's a lot more work for me.
That's a lot more work for me.
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我的确认为，薪酬模式的问题，会有很多不同的解决方法
07:53
I do think that there are
going to be different ways,
going to be different ways,
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但是我不一定知道
07:56
but I don't know necessarily.
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我的意思是，我会很诚实的说，很多内容制作者
07:58
I mean, I'll be honest and say
a lot of content creators
a lot of content creators
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未必会对当发行人这件事有兴趣
08:00
are not necessarily interested
in being distributors,
in being distributors,
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主要就是，因为我梦想做的事
08:04
mainly because what I dream of doing
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只是创造好的内容
08:07
is creating content.
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我很喜欢创造内容
08:08
I really love to create content.
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而且我想通过这个赚钱
08:10
I want to get paid for it
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我想拿到我应该得到的报酬
08:11
and I want to get paid the money
that I deserve to get paid for it,
that I deserve to get paid for it,
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能有这个意识目前不是件简单的事情
08:15
and there's a hard part in finding that.
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但是我其实也很想让它成为一种可行的模式
08:17
But I also want it to be made possible
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你懂的，为了那些跟我一起共事的人
08:19
for, you know,
the people who work with me,
the people who work with me,
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为了那些为我工作的人，为了让每个人
08:22
the people who work for me,
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都能以一种方式获得报酬，然后大家都能以此谋生
08:24
everybody to sort of get paid in a way,
and they're all making a living.
and they're all making a living.
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但是利润如何分配这件事正在变的越来越不容易了
08:27
How it gets distributed
is getting harder and harder.
is getting harder and harder.
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辛迪：那么关于新兴工具这方面呢
08:32
CS: How about the many new tools,
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就是那些VR(虚拟现实)，AR(增强现实)之类的
08:34
you know, VR, AR ...
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我觉得在这些技术的支持下，你不能刷剧
08:37
I find it fascinating
that you can't really binge-watch,
that you can't really binge-watch,
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也不能快进的这件事是很神奇的
08:41
you can't fast-forward in those things.
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关于它们在说故事里的未来，你是怎么想的呢
08:45
What do you see as the future
of those for storytelling?
of those for storytelling?
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08:48
SR: I spent a lot of time in the past year
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珊达：我在过去的一年里用了很多时间
来探索这些工具
08:51
just exploring those,
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来看很多关于这些的演示，来关注它们
08:52
getting lots of demonstrations
and paying attention.
and paying attention.
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我认为它们很吸引人
08:55
I find them fascinating,
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主要是因为，我觉得...
08:57
mainly because I think that --
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我觉得很多人认为它们很适合游戏
08:59
I think most people
think of them for gaming,
think of them for gaming,
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很多人把它们和动作类的东西联系到一起
09:01
I think most people think of them
for things like action,
for things like action,
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我觉得，在这些东西里
09:04
and I think that there is
a sense of intimacy
a sense of intimacy
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有一种很突出的私密感
09:06
that is very present in those things,
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意思就是，设想一下
09:10
the idea that -- picture this,
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09:13
you can sit there
and have a conversation with Fitz,
and have a conversation with Fitz,
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你可以坐在这里，同Fitz展开一场谈话
或者，至少在Fitz同你讲话的时候，你是在旁边的
09:16
or at least sit there
while Fitz talks to you,
while Fitz talks to you,
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Fitz，是《丑闻》中的总统
09:19
President Fitzgerald Grant III,
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当他在跟你说
09:21
while he talks to you
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为什么他做了如此的选择的时候
09:22
about why he's making
a choice that he makes,
a choice that he makes,
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这个是很真心的时刻
09:24
and it's a very heartfelt moment.
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与其是你盯着电视的屏幕
09:26
And instead of you watching
a television screen,
a television screen,
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你是坐在他的旁边的，在他正说话的时候
09:28
you're sitting there next to him,
and he's having this conversation.
and he's having this conversation.
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现在，仅仅是通过电视屏幕看到他所表演的
09:32
Now, you fall in love with the man
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09:33
while he's doing it
from a television screen.
from a television screen.
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你就已经爱上这个角色了
设想一下，如果你就坐在他附近呢
09:35
Imagine sitting next to him,
207
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09:37
or being with a character like Huck
who's about to execute somebody.
who's about to execute somebody.
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或者，你跟一个类似Huck一样的正要去杀人的角色待在一起
与其是看到他在跟另外一个角色
09:41
And instead of having a scene
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09:42
where, you know, he's talking
to another character very rapidly,
to another character very rapidly,
210
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快速对话的这么一个场景
他会走进一个小房间，转身面向你，然后跟你说
09:46
he goes into a closet and turns to you
and tells you, you know,
and tells you, you know,
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接下来会发生什么，为什么他现在会紧张害怕
09:50
what's going to happen
and why he's afraid and nervous.
and why he's afraid and nervous.
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这有点像是剧场的感觉，我不知道这个可不可行
09:52
It's a little more like theater,
and I'm not sure it would work,
and I'm not sure it would work,
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但是我是被类似这样的概念
09:55
but I'm fascinating by the concept
of something like that
of something like that
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还有它对观众来说的意义所吸引的
09:58
and what that would mean for an audience.
215
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1976
能够运用到这些概念会很有意思
10:00
And to get to play with those ideas
would be interesting,
would be interesting,
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而且我觉得，对于我的观众，那些看我节目的人
10:03
and I think, you know, for my audience,
the people who watch my shows,
the people who watch my shows,
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就是12到75岁的女性们来说
10:07
which is, you know, women 12 to 75,
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这其中也有一些她们感兴趣的东西
10:09
there's something interesting
in there for them.
in there for them.
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10:14
CS: And how about
the input of the audience?
the input of the audience?
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辛迪：那对于观众们的意识呢？
你对于这方面感兴趣到什么程度呢
10:17
How interested are you in the things
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10:19
where the audience
can actually go up to a certain point
can actually go up to a certain point
222
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就是类似观众们可以到达某一个特定的节点，然后再决定
10:22
and then decide, oh wait,
I'm going to choose my own adventure.
I'm going to choose my own adventure.
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比如，等下，我要决定我自己接下来要看的
我决定要抛弃Fitz了，我决定要抛弃...
10:26
I'm going to run off with Fitz
or I'm going to run off with --
or I'm going to run off with --
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珊达：噢，“选择你自己想看的”这种故事题材
10:29
SR: Oh, the choose-
your-own-adventure stories.
your-own-adventure stories.
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这些题材对我来说很煎熬
10:31
I have a hard time with those,
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并不是因为我想掌控所有的事情
10:32
and not necessarily because
I want to be in control of everything,
I want to be in control of everything,
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3136
而是因为在我自己看电视或者看电影的时候
10:36
but because when I'm watching television
or I'm watching a movie,
or I'm watching a movie,
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我明确地知道，当我对发生在其他人创造的角色身上的事情
10:39
I know for a fact
that a story is not as good
that a story is not as good
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10:44
when I have control
over exactly what's going to happen
over exactly what's going to happen
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有全面的掌控的时候
这个故事就不会像它原来那样精彩了
10:47
to somebody else's character.
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如果我能跟你说我想让什么样的事情发生在Walter White身上
10:48
You know, if I could tell you exactly
what I wanted to happen to Walter White,
what I wanted to happen to Walter White,
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那很好，但是这个故事就不一样了，它不会那么有冲击力
10:52
that's great, but the story
is not the same, and it's not as powerful.
is not the same, and it's not as powerful.
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你知道么，如果是我来负责《黑道家族》的结局
10:56
You know, if I'm in charge
of how "The Sopranos" ends,
of how "The Sopranos" ends,
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那么，很好，我会写一个美好的令人满足的结局
10:58
then that's lovely and I have an ending
that's nice and satisfying,
that's nice and satisfying,
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但是故事就变了，它带来的感情上的冲击也不一样
11:02
but it's not the same story
and it's not the same emotional impact.
and it's not the same emotional impact.
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辛迪：我无法停止想象那会是什么样子
11:05
CS: I can't stop imagining
what that might be.
what that might be.
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抱歉，我走神儿了一下
11:08
Sorry, you're losing me for a minute.
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珊达：但是很愉快的是我不用去做这种想象
11:10
SR: But what's wonderful is
I don't get to imagine it,
I don't get to imagine it,
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因为，比如，Vincent他有他自己的结局
11:13
because Vince has his own ending,
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而且从别人的口中知道这个会让它很有冲击力
11:15
and it makes it really powerful
to know that somebody else has told.
to know that somebody else has told.
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3536
你懂的，如果你可以决定，比如
11:18
You know, if you could
decide that, you know,
decide that, you know,
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在《大白鲨》里，是鲨鱼赢了或者什么其他的
11:21
in "Jaws," the shark wins or something,
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但它其实没有完成一个故事需要为你做到的事情
11:23
it doesn't do what it needs to do for you.
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从别人口中讲出来的才叫故事
11:26
The story is the story that is told,
245
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之后，你可以生气的走开，你可以辩论着离开
11:28
and you can walk away angry
and you can walk away debating
and you can walk away debating
246
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你也可以争吵着离开
11:30
and you can walk away arguing,
247
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但是，这就是为什么故事是有效果的
11:32
but that's why it works.
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这就是为什么它是艺术
11:34
That is why it's art.
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11:35
Otherwise, it's just a game,
250
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1816
不然，它就只是一场游戏
当然游戏也可以是艺术，但是，是以一种非常不同的方式
11:37
and games can be art,
but in a very different way.
but in a very different way.
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11:40
CS: Gamers who actually
sell the right to sit there
sell the right to sit there
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3576
辛迪：玩家们现在会贩售席位
然后点评正在发生的事情
11:44
and comment on what's happening,
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这对我来这，这比起说故事更有团体的感觉
11:46
to me that's more community
than storytelling.
than storytelling.
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珊达：这是它自己独有的一种交流的形式
11:49
SR: And that is its own form of campfire.
255
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11:51
I don't discount that
as a form of storytelling,
as a form of storytelling,
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3136
我不会不把它当成说故事的形式中的一种来考虑
但是，我想，它是一种团体的形式
11:54
but it is a group form, I suppose.
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11:58
CS: All right,
what about the super-super --
what about the super-super --
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辛迪：好吧，那关于那个超级超级... ...
就是所有的东西都在变的越来越短的这个事实呢？
12:01
the fact that everything's
getting shorter, shorter, shorter.
getting shorter, shorter, shorter.
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你知道么，Snapchat现在推出了一个它们叫做“节目”的
12:04
And, you know, Snapchat
now has something it calls shows
now has something it calls shows
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只有一分钟时长的东西
12:08
that are one minute long.
261
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12:11
SR: It's interesting.
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珊达：这个很有意思
12:14
Part of me thinks
it sounds like commercials.
it sounds like commercials.
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2600
我有点觉得这听起来像是广告
12:18
I mean, it does -- like, sponsored by.
264
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我的意思是，听起来确实像，比如，它是被赞助的
但是，我又有点觉得这个产品是有道理的
12:21
But part of me also gets it completely.
265
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它是有些很棒的东西在里面
12:23
There's something
really wonderful about it.
really wonderful about it.
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如果你考虑的是一个大多数人
12:25
If you think about a world
267
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都会用他们的手机来看电视的世界
12:27
in which most people
are watching television on their phones,
are watching television on their phones,
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2896
如果你考虑的是一个像印度一样的地方
12:30
if you think about a place like India,
269
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那里是大多数的互动输入
12:32
where most of the input is coming in
270
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和产品的来源
12:33
and that's where
most of the product is coming in,
most of the product is coming in,
271
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那么，把东西变的更短是有道理的
12:36
shorter makes sense.
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如果你能让大家为更短的内容付更多的钱
12:37
If you can charge people more
for shorter periods of content,
for shorter periods of content,
273
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3536
那么一些发行商已经找到了一种能挣更多钱的方式
12:41
some distributor has figured out
a way to make a lot more money.
a way to make a lot more money.
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如果你是创作内容的人
12:44
If you're making content,
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那么制作和发表内容的成本会更少
12:46
it costs less money
to make it and put it out there.
to make it and put it out there.
276
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而且，顺便说一下
12:49
And, by the way,
277
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如果你像我14岁的女儿一样有一个较短的专注时间
12:50
if you're 14 and have
a short attention span, like my daughter,
a short attention span, like my daughter,
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那么，更短的内容是你想看见的，是你想创作的
12:55
that's what you want to see,
that's what you want to make,
that's what you want to make,
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短篇幅的内容就是这样运作的
12:57
that's how it works.
280
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12:59
And if you do it right
and it actually feels like narrative,
and it actually feels like narrative,
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假如你的方法是正确的而且它在感觉上确实像是叙事
那么无论你做什么，人们都会持续关注的
13:03
people will hang on for it
no matter what you do.
no matter what you do.
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13:06
CS: I'm glad you raised your daughters,
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辛迪：我很高兴你你养大了你的女儿们
因为我一直想知道她们会怎样去消费娱乐活动
13:08
because I am wondering how are they
going to consume entertainment,
going to consume entertainment,
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而且不仅仅是娱乐方面
13:13
and also not just entertainment,
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还有信息新闻
13:15
but news, too.
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我的意思是，算法机器人霸王
13:17
When they're not -- I mean,
the algorithmic robot overlords
the algorithmic robot overlords
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会为她们提供类似她们先前已经浏览过的东西
13:20
are going to feed them
what they've already done.
what they've already done.
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你认为我们应该如何纠正这个情况才能让人们成为全面的公民
13:24
How do you think we will correct for that
and make people well-rounded citizens?
and make people well-rounded citizens?
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13:29
SR: Well, me and how I correct for it
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珊达：我用来纠正这个的方法
跟别人会如何来处理这件事的方法，是完全不同的
13:31
is completely different
than how somebody else might do it.
than how somebody else might do it.
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辛迪：你可以随便推测一下
13:34
CS: Feel free to speculate.
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珊达：我真的不清楚我们在未来会如何处理这个
13:36
SR: I really don't know
how we're going to do it in the future.
how we're going to do it in the future.
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我想说，我可怜的孩子们一直以来都是我所有实验的对象
13:39
I mean, my poor children have been
the subject of all of my experiments.
the subject of all of my experiments.
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我们现在依就会做一个我们叫做“阿米什人的夏天“的活动
13:43
We're still doing
what I call "Amish summers"
what I call "Amish summers"
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就是我关掉所有的电子产品
13:45
where I turn off all electronics
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把他们所有的电脑和什么其他的都收起来
13:47
and pack away
all their computers and stuff
all their computers and stuff
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然后看着他们因此抓狂一段时间
13:49
and watch them scream for a while
until they settle down
until they settle down
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直到他们安定下来接受一个没有任何电子设备的夏天
13:52
into, like, an electronic-free summer.
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13:56
But honestly, it's a very hard world
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但是说实话，这一个很艰难的世道
现在，作为成年人，
13:59
in which now, as grown-ups,
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我们对于自己喜欢看的东西是那么的重视
14:01
we're so interested
in watching our own thing,
in watching our own thing,
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以至于我们根本都不知道我们有时候
14:04
and we don't even know
that we're being fed, sometimes,
that we're being fed, sometimes,
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被灌输的只是自己自以为的观念
14:07
just our own opinions.
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现在运作的方式就是
14:09
You know, the way it's working now,
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你看到一个信息推送
14:10
you're watching a feed,
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而且推送都是已经被调整过的
14:12
and the feeds are being corrected
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所以，你得到的都是你自己倾向于相信的观念
14:13
so that you're only getting
your own opinions
your own opinions
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你就会感觉自己是越来越正确的
14:15
and you're feeling
more and more right about yourself.
more and more right about yourself.
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那么，你怎么样才能真正开始察觉到这些呢
14:18
So how do you really start to discern?
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这个问题正在变的有点让人不安了
14:20
It's getting a little bit disturbing.
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它有可能会矫枉过正，也有可能会暴涨
14:22
So maybe it'll overcorrect,
maybe it'll all explode,
maybe it'll all explode,
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14:25
or maybe we'll all just become --
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或者我们都将会变的... ...
我不喜欢对这件事持有消极的态度
14:28
I hate to be negative about it,
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但是有可能我们都将会变的更愚蠢
14:29
but maybe we'll all
just become more idiotic.
just become more idiotic.
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14:33
(Cyndi laughs)
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（笑声）
14:35
CS: Yeah, can you picture
any corrective that you could do
any corrective that you could do
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辛迪：好吧，那你能想象到任何的矫正措施
是你可以用有剧本的虚构的作品来引入的吗
14:38
with scripted, fictional work?
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珊达：我对于电视是有能力以一种很强大的方式
14:41
SR: I think a lot about the fact
that television has the power
that television has the power
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14:45
to educate people in a powerful way,
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来教育人的这个事做了很多思考
14:47
and when you're watching television --
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当你看电视的时候... ...
举个例子，他们对医疗方面的电视节目做了研究
14:49
for instance, they do studies
about medical shows.
about medical shows.
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大概百分之八十七的人
14:52
I think it's 87 percent,
87 percent of people
87 percent of people
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他们所拥有的大多数关于医学或者医疗常识方面的知识
14:54
get most of their knowledge
about medicine and medical facts
about medicine and medical facts
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14:57
from medical shows,
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都是从这些与医疗相关的节目里得到的
这比他们从医生那里或者文章上面
14:59
much more so than
they do from their doctors,
they do from their doctors,
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15:01
than from articles.
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获得的要多得多
所以我们很努力的在做到准确无误
15:02
So we work really hard to be accurate,
and every time we make a mistake,
and every time we make a mistake,
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每一次我们有地方出错了，我都会觉得很内疚
15:06
I feel really guilty,
like we're going to do something bad,
like we're going to do something bad,
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就像是我们要做一些什么不好的事情一样
但是我们也给予了很多好的医学信息
15:09
but we also give a lot
of good medical information.
of good medical information.
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在这些节目里，也有很多其他的方法可以提供信息
15:11
There are so many other ways
to give information on those shows.
to give information on those shows.
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人们正在消遣着
15:14
People are being entertained
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或许他们不想看新闻
15:16
and maybe they don't want
to read the news,
to read the news,
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但是，在这些娱乐节目里，传递公正的信息是有很多方法的
15:18
but there are a lot of ways to give
fair information out on those shows,
fair information out on those shows,
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并不是一些诡异的，像是我们要控制人们的思想，的那种方法
15:21
not in some creepy, like,
we're going to control people's minds way,
we're going to control people's minds way,
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而是以一种像是有点令人感兴趣的，机智的方式
15:26
but in a way that's sort of
very interesting and intelligent
very interesting and intelligent
336
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2856
15:29
and not about pushing
one side's version or the other,
one side's version or the other,
337
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3456
这不是说要推动一方或者另一方的说法
只是提供事实真相
15:32
like, giving out the truth.
338
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1336
15:34
It would be strange, though,
339
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1936
不过，这样会显得奇怪
如果我们是通过电视剧来提供消息的
15:36
if television drama
was how we were giving the news.
was how we were giving the news.
340
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3736
辛迪：这个是奇怪的
15:39
CS: It would be strange,
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1256
但是很多你创作的被认为是虚构的情节
15:41
but I gather a lot of what
you've written as fiction
you've written as fiction
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3216
15:44
has become prediction this season?
343
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2400
都已经在这个季度成为了对现实的预言
15:47
SR: You know, "Scandal" has been
very disturbing for that reason.
very disturbing for that reason.
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珊达：《丑闻》因为这个原因已经很令人不安了
我们的这个节目是关于政治失去了理智的
15:50
We have this show
that's about politics gone mad,
that's about politics gone mad,
345
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2976
大致来说，我们一直以来讲述这部剧的方式... ...
15:53
and basically the way
we've always told the show --
we've always told the show --
346
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2936
15:56
you know, everybody
pays attention to the papers.
pays attention to the papers.
347
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2376
你知道的，人人都关注报纸上的新闻
我们什么都读，什么都拿来讨论
15:59
We read everything.
We talk about everything.
We talk about everything.
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2136
我们有很多朋友在华盛顿
16:01
We have lots of friends in Washington.
349
949360
1936
然后我们一直都是以一种推测的思维来做我们的节目的
16:03
And we'd always sort of
done our show as a speculation.
done our show as a speculation.
350
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2856
16:06
We'd sit in the room and think,
351
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1496
我们会坐在一个房间里，然后来思考
假如车轮从公交车上掉落然后一切都变的疯狂了
16:07
what would happen
if the wheels came off the bus
if the wheels came off the bus
352
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2256
16:10
and everything went crazy?
353
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1296
那接下来会发生什么
这个一直都很棒
16:11
And that was always great,
354
959320
1536
只是，现在好像感觉像是公交车已经没了轮子
16:12
except now it felt like
the wheels were coming off the bus
the wheels were coming off the bus
355
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2936
像是事情真的变的疯狂了
16:15
and things were actually going crazy,
356
963840
1816
所以我们猜测的事情真的变成现实了
16:17
so the things that we were speculating
were really coming true.
were really coming true.
357
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2976
我们今年的这一季
16:20
I mean, our season this year
358
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1376
原本是要以俄罗斯人控制美国选举的这个情节来结束的
16:22
was going to end with the Russians
controlling the American election,
controlling the American election,
359
970080
3776
我们已经都写好了，都计划好了
16:25
and we'd written it, we'd planned for it,
360
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2656
所有的都准备好了
16:28
it was all there,
361
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1216
然后俄罗斯就被怀疑牵涉进美国大选了
16:29
and then the Russians were suspected
of being involved in the American election
of being involved in the American election
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3816
我们忽然之间就得换掉我们原本为这一季准备的内容
16:33
and we suddenly had to change
what we were going to do for our season.
what we were going to do for our season.
363
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3336
我走进去，然后我的反应就是
16:37
I walked in and I was like,
364
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“我们的那个神秘的女人开始讲俄语的那个情节
16:38
"That scene where our mystery woman
starts speaking Russian?
starts speaking Russian?
365
986360
2856
我们要解决掉这个，想一想我们要怎么去做“
16:41
We have to fix that
and figure out what we're going to do."
and figure out what we're going to do."
366
989240
2856
这个剧情只是推测出来的
16:44
That just comes from extrapolating
367
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1656
是从我们认为会发生什么的角度
16:45
out from what we thought
was going to happen,
was going to happen,
368
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2216
或者我们认为什么是不可思议的这样一种角度来创作的
16:48
or what we thought was crazy.
369
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1480
16:50
CS: That's great.
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1296
辛迪：很棒
美国哪些其他的地方，或者世界上哪些其他的地方是你关注的
16:51
So where else in US or elsewhere
in the world do you look?
in the world do you look?
371
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4896
现在有哪些人是在做好玩的故事的
16:56
Who is doing interesting
storytelling right now?
storytelling right now?
372
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2456
珊达：不太好说，现在到处都有令人感兴趣的东西
16:59
SR: I don't know, there's a lot
of interesting stuff out there.
of interesting stuff out there.
373
1007240
3016
很显然，英国的电视节目一直都很了不起
17:02
Obviously British television
is always amazing
is always amazing
374
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2936
一直有在做有趣的东西
17:05
and always does interesting things.
375
1013240
2616
我没能有机会看很多的电视
17:07
I don't get to watch a lot of TV,
376
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2296
主要是因为我忙于工作
17:10
mainly because I'm busy working.
377
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2416
还有我在某种程度上会试着不去看太多的电视
17:12
And I pretty much try not to watch
very much television at all,
very much television at all,
378
1020640
3616
即使是美国的电视，一直到我搞定了一个季度的剧为止
17:16
even American television,
until I'm done with a season,
until I'm done with a season,
379
1024280
2895
不然，我看过的东西会慢慢扎根在我的脑海里
17:19
because things start
to creep into my head otherwise.
to creep into my head otherwise.
380
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2495
我会开始问自己，类似，我们的人物为什么
17:21
I start to wonder, like,
381
1029720
1936
17:23
why can't our characters wear crowns
and talk about being on a throne?
and talk about being on a throne?
382
1031680
3416
不能戴上皇冠然后谈论关于登上王座的事呢
这让人要疯掉了
17:27
It gets crazy.
383
1035119
1657
所以在剧集创作完成之前，我会尽量不去看太多的东西
17:28
So I try not to watch much
until the seasons are over.
until the seasons are over.
384
1036800
3736
但是我确实感觉现在有很多有意思的欧洲电视
17:32
But I do think that there's a lot of
interesting European television out there.
interesting European television out there.
385
1040560
3736
我去了国际艾美奖的现场
17:36
I was at the International Emmys
386
1044319
1896
四处逛了一下，看了他们在放映的东西
17:38
and looking around and seeing
the stuff that they were showing,
the stuff that they were showing,
387
1046240
2976
我有点着迷了
17:41
and I was kind of fascinated.
388
1049240
1416
那里有些东西是我很想看的
17:42
There's some stuff
I want to watch and check out.
I want to watch and check out.
389
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2736
17:45
CS: Can you imagine --
390
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1256
辛迪：你能想象到... ...
我知道你不常花时间去想关于科技的东西
17:46
I know that you don't spend a lot of time
thinking about tech stuff,
thinking about tech stuff,
391
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3536
但是你知道几年前我们TED来过一个人
17:50
but you know how a few years ago
we had someone here at TED
we had someone here at TED
392
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3016
他讲了一些关于视觉的东西
17:53
talking about seeing,
393
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2256
就像，带上了谷歌眼镜，然后眼睛就能看到电视节目了
17:55
wearing Google Glass and seeing
your TV shows essentially in your eye?
your TV shows essentially in your eye?
394
1063600
6136
你有没有幻想过什么时候... ...
18:01
Do you ever fantasize when, you know --
395
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2296
比如一个小女孩坐在
18:04
the little girl
who sat on the pantry floor
who sat on the pantry floor
396
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2456
你父母家的厨房地板上
18:06
in your parents' house,
397
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1736
你有没有想象过什么其他的媒介
18:08
did you ever imagine any other medium?
398
1076320
2600
或者你现在会做这样的想象吗
18:12
Or would you now?
399
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1456
珊达：其他的媒介
18:13
SR: Any other medium.
400
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1336
对说故事来说，像是书以外其他的媒介吗？
18:15
For storytelling, other than books?
401
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1696
我从小就想成为像托妮莫里森一样的人，所以没想过
18:16
I mean, I grew up wanting
to be Toni Morrison, so no.
to be Toni Morrison, so no.
402
1084760
2816
我以前根本也没想过电视也可以是媒介
18:19
I mean, I didn't even imagine television.
403
1087600
1976
所以，能有更广阔的世界
18:21
So the idea that there could be
some bigger world,
some bigger world,
404
1089600
3856
以及一些更神奇的做事情的方法的这个想法... ...
18:25
some more magical way of making things ---
405
1093480
2176
当新的科技出现的时候，我总是很激动的
18:27
I'm always excited
when new technology comes out
when new technology comes out
406
1095680
2256
而且我一直是想第一个去尝试的那种人
18:29
and I'm always the first one
to want to try it.
to want to try it.
407
1097960
3016
可能性现在给人感觉仿佛是无限的，是令人兴奋的
18:33
The possibilities feel endless
and exciting right now,
and exciting right now,
408
1101000
3176
这个让我激动不已
18:36
which is what excites me.
409
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1440
18:39
We're in this sort of Wild West period,
to me, it feels like,
to me, it feels like,
410
1107040
3056
我感觉我们现在正处于类似拓荒前的西部的这样一个时期
因为没人知道我们到底会选定什么
18:42
because nobody knows
what we're going to settle on.
what we're going to settle on.
411
1110120
2416
现如今你可以把故事展示在任何地方
18:44
You can put stories anywhere right now
412
1112560
2216
这个对我来讲很酷
18:46
and that's cool to me,
413
1114800
1456
感觉像是一旦我们懂得了如何
18:48
and it feels like once we figure out
how to get the technology
how to get the technology
414
1116280
4136
把科技和说故事的创造力相结合
18:52
and the creativity
of storytelling to meet,
of storytelling to meet,
415
1120440
3456
可能会发生的事就是无穷的
18:55
the possibilities are endless.
416
1123920
1429
辛迪：科技同样使我先前简略提到过的事情成为了可能
18:58
CS: And also the technology has enabled
the thing I briefly flew by earlier,
the thing I briefly flew by earlier,
417
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4736
刷剧，这是个新现象
19:03
binge-viewing,
which is a recent phenomenon,
which is a recent phenomenon,
418
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2976
自从你开始做电视节目以来，对吧
19:06
since you've been doing shows, right?
419
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2176
这个现象改变了说故事的方法吗？你是怎么看待这个问题的
19:08
And how do you think does that change
the storytelling process at all?
the storytelling process at all?
420
1136240
4696
你一直都有提前为一整季准备一个类似圣经似的万能书，对吧
19:12
You always had a bible
for the whole season beforehand, right?
for the whole season beforehand, right?
421
1140960
3816
珊达：并没有，我就是一直都知道一季要在哪里结束
19:16
SR: No, I just always knew
where we were going to end.
where we were going to end.
422
1144800
3336
所以，对于我来说
19:20
So for me,
423
1148160
2336
关于这个刷剧的现象，我唯一能说的就是
19:22
the only way I can really comment on that
424
1150520
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19:24
is that I have a show
that's been going on for 14 seasons
that's been going on for 14 seasons
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我有一个已经播出到第14季的节目
所以肯定有人一直追这部剧到第14季了
19:29
and so there are the people
who have been watching it for 14 seasons,
who have been watching it for 14 seasons,
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然后就有我在超市碰到的这么一群12岁的女孩们
19:32
and then there are the 12-year-old girls
I'd encounter in the grocery store
I'd encounter in the grocery store
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她们在三个星期之内看了297集这个剧
19:36
who had watched
297 episodes in three weeks.
297 episodes in three weeks.
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说真的，这对她们来说是一种十分与众不同的体验
19:40
Seriously, and that's a very different
experience for them,
experience for them,
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因为她们一直很强烈地沉浸在一件事里面
19:42
because they've been inside of something
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19:44
really intensely for
a very short period of time
a very short period of time
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在相当短的一段时间内
以一种强度很大的方式
19:48
in a very intense way,
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所以对她们来说，这个故事有一个完全不同轨迹
19:49
and to them the story
has a completely different arc
has a completely different arc
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2936
和一个完全不同的含义
19:52
and a completely different meaning
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因为它从来没有被打断过
19:54
because it never had any breaks.
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辛迪：这就像是去游览一个国家然后再离开的感觉
19:56
CS: It's like visiting a country
and then leaving it. It's a strange --
and then leaving it. It's a strange --
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珊达：这就像是阅读了一本很棒的小说然后合上它的感觉
19:59
SR: It's like reading an amazing novel
and then putting it down.
and then putting it down.
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我想这就是这个体验的美丽之处吧
20:02
I think that is the beauty
of the experience.
of the experience.
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你不一定非要一下子看完一个什么长达14季的东西
20:05
You don't necessarily have to watch
something for 14 seasons.
something for 14 seasons.
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这不一定是所有的事都应该有的样子
20:08
It's not necessarily
the way everything's supposed to be.
the way everything's supposed to be.
440
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20:12
CS: Is there any topic
that you don't think we should touch?
that you don't think we should touch?
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辛迪：有没有任何的主题是你觉得我们应该避开的呢
20:16
SR: I don't think
I think of story that way.
I think of story that way.
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珊达：我不觉得我是以这种角度来看待故事的
我是从人物角色，和他们会做什么，还有他们需要做些什么
20:18
I think of story in terms of character
and what characters would do
and what characters would do
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才能继续发展下去的这些方面来看待故事的
20:22
and what characters need to do
in order to make them move forward,
in order to make them move forward,
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所以我真的从来没有只从故事情节方面来考虑故事
20:25
so I'm never really thinking of story
in terms of just plot,
in terms of just plot,
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当作家们来到我的写作室然后扔给我情节梗概的时候
20:28
and when writers come
into my writer's room and pitch me plot,
into my writer's room and pitch me plot,
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2936
我会说，“你正在说的不是英语”
20:31
I say, "You're not speaking English."
447
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这个真的是我会对他们说的
20:33
Like, that's the thing I say.
448
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1416
20:34
We're not speaking English.
I need to hear what's real.
I need to hear what's real.
449
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2616
这不是英语，我需要听到实际的东西
所以我是不会从主题情节来考虑的
20:37
And so I don't think of it that way.
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1736
我不知道有没有什么办法能让我了解到什么是我不会去做的
20:39
I don't know if there's a way
to think there's something I wouldn't do
to think there's something I wouldn't do
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因为想这种事让我感觉像是从墙上扯下剧情碎片一样
20:42
because that feels like I'm plucking
pieces of plot off a wall or something.
pieces of plot off a wall or something.
452
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辛迪：很好，你认为在多大程度上你会去用... ...
20:46
CS: That's great. To what extent
do you think you will use --
do you think you will use --
453
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3136
你最近加入了计划生育委员会
20:49
You know, you recently went
on the board of Planned Parenthood
on the board of Planned Parenthood
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还参与了希拉里克林顿的竞选活动
20:52
and got involved
in the Hillary Clinton campaign.
in the Hillary Clinton campaign.
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你觉得在多大程度上你将会运用你说故事的能力
20:55
To what extent do you think
you will use your storytelling
you will use your storytelling
456
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3616
在现实生活中
20:58
in the real world
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去带来改变
21:00
to effect change?
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1440
21:04
SR: Well, you know, there's --
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珊达：嗯，你懂的
21:07
That's an intense subject to me,
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1576
这对我来说是一个很让人紧张的主题
因为我感觉在很多人身上都存在的
21:08
because I feel like the lack of narrative
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这种对于叙事能力的缺乏是难解决的
21:11
that a lot of people have is difficult.
462
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你知道，有很多的组织机构都缺乏
21:17
You know, like,
there's a lot of organizations
there's a lot of organizations
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一个它们为自己创作的，能帮到它们的
21:19
that don't have a positive narrative
that they've created for themselves
that they've created for themselves
464
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4016
这样一个积极的故事讲述
21:23
that would help them.
465
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1320
21:26
There's a lot of campaigns
466
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1816
一个更好的讲述
21:27
that could be helped
with a better narrative.
with a better narrative.
467
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3616
可以给很多竞选活动带来帮助
民主党可以做很多的事
21:31
The Democrats could do a lot
468
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2496
如果他们有一个很有说服力的关于他们自己的叙述
21:34
with a very strong
narrative for themselves.
narrative for themselves.
469
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2096
有很多各种各样的事情都有可能发生
21:36
There's a lot of different things
that could happen
that could happen
470
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2416
从一个能运用说故事的能力的角度来讲
21:38
in terms of using storytelling voice,
471
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1816
21:40
and I don't mean that in a fiction way,
472
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1896
而且我不是指在一个虚构的场景下
我这番话的意思是任何一个演讲稿撰写人都有体会的
21:42
I mean that in a same way
that any speechwriter would mean it.
that any speechwriter would mean it.
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4136
我察觉到了这一点
21:46
And I see that,
474
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但是我不是很清楚这是否应该是我的工作该做的
21:47
but I don't necessarily know
that that's, like, my job to do that.
that that's, like, my job to do that.
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21:51
CS: All right.
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辛迪：好的，那大家请帮我感谢一下Shonda吧
21:53
Please help me thank Shonda.
SR: Thank you.
SR: Thank you.
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珊达：谢谢你们
21:55
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Shonda Rhimes - Writer, producerWith the runaway success of shows like Scandal and Grey’s Anatomy, Shonda Rhimes has become one of Hollywood’s most powerful icons.
Why you should listen
When ABC kicked off its 2014 television season by devoting its Thursday night line-up to the Shondaland shows How to Get Away With Murder, Scandal and Grey’s Anatomy, Shonda Rhimes -- already one of the most influential producers in Hollywood -- became arguably the single most powerful voice in television today. In 2015, ABC snapped up Rhimes’ latest series, The Catch. Shondaland shows have the special ability to capture both fan devotion and critical attention – she’s won everything from a Peabody Award to a People’s Choice Award.
Rhimes is known for her groundbreaking storytelling, her candor and humor in the face of her critics, and for never shying away from speaking her mind. She’s also known for her social media savvy, and fans of her shows basically own Twitter on Thursday nights. Her first book, Year of Yes, was published in November 2015.
Shonda Rhimes | Speaker | TED.com
Cyndi Stivers - Encourager-in-chief, TED Residency
Cyndi Stivers curates special events for TED and often serves as a board member, adviser, business strategist and startup coach.
Why you should listen
Cyndi Stivers is encourager-in-chief of the TED Residency, an idea incubator at TED headquarters in New York. She started out in hot-type newspapers and has since shepherded media startups and reinvigorated venerable brands on nearly every platform, including magazines, television, radio and online, right back to the early days of the consumer internet. From 1995 to 2005, while in charge of North American operations for London-based Time Out Group Ltd., she led the creation of Time Out magazines, guidebooks and websites for New York and Chicago.
Stivers is a longtime trustee of Barnard College, of which she is a proud alumna. For more work history, please see LinkedIn or cyndistivers.com, and for photos of urban gardens and other obsessions, follow @CyndiStivers on Twitter or Facebook.
Cyndi Stivers | Speaker | TED.com