TEDxPSU
Sajay Samuel: How college loans exploit students for profit
薩杰．塞繆爾: 學生貸款如何剝削學生
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薩杰．塞繆爾（Sajay Samuel）教授說，＂曾幾何時，在美國上大學不等於背債畢業＂。而如今，高等教育變成了消費產品——學費大幅度上升，當學校與貸款公司在賺大錢的時候，學生們背負了超過一兆美金的債務。塞繆爾提出了一個相當大膽的解決方案：把學費與學歷未來的收入做連結，讓學生可以為他們的未來做出明智的選擇，重新找回對學習的熱情，並為這世界做出有意義的貢獻。
Sajay Samuel - Educator
Professor Sajay Samuel's proposal to reduce the burden of student loans is part of his larger preoccupation with thinking beyond the conventional categories of economics and ecology. Full bio
Professor Sajay Samuel's proposal to reduce the burden of student loans is part of his larger preoccupation with thinking beyond the conventional categories of economics and ecology. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Today 40 million Americans are indebted
for their passage to the new economy.
for their passage to the new economy.
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現今有四千萬個美國人
在通往新型經濟的道路上負債。
在通往新型經濟的道路上負債。
00:20
Too poor to pay their way through college,
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因為無法承擔大學學費，
00:22
they now owe lenders
more than one trillion US dollars.
more than one trillion US dollars.
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他們欠債權人的錢超過一兆美元。
00:27
They do find what jobs they can get
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他們得做任何工作，
00:29
to pay off a debt
that is secured on their person.
that is secured on their person.
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來償還鎖死在他們身上的債務。
00:33
In America,
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在美國，
00:35
even a bankrupt gambler
gets a second chance.
gets a second chance.
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即使是一個破產的賭徒
都有二次機會。
都有二次機會。
00:42
But it is nearly impossible
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但對一個美國人而言，
想清償他的學生貸款，
想清償他的學生貸款，
00:45
for an American to get discharged
their student loan debts.
their student loan debts.
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幾乎是不可能的。
00:52
Once upon a time in America,
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曾幾何時，
00:55
going to college did not mean
graduating with debt.
graduating with debt.
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在美國上大學不等於舉債。
00:59
My friend Paul's father
graduated from Colorado State University
graduated from Colorado State University
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我的朋友保羅的父親，
畢業於科羅拉多州立大學
畢業於科羅拉多州立大學
01:04
on the GI Bill.
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主修美國軍事法。
01:07
For his generation,
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在他父親的那個世代，
01:09
higher education was free or almost free,
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高等教育幾乎是免費的，
01:12
because it was thought of
as a public good.
as a public good.
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因為大家公認教育是有意義的。
01:15
Not anymore.
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但好景不再，
01:18
When Paul also graduated
from Colorado State University,
from Colorado State University,
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當保羅從科羅拉多州立大學
的英語科系畢業，
的英語科系畢業，
01:22
he paid for his English degree
by working part-time.
by working part-time.
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他必須得打工償還他的學貸。
01:26
30 years ago,
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三十年前，
01:27
higher education tuition
was affordable, reasonable,
was affordable, reasonable,
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高等教育的學費是
大家都負擔的起的合理費用，
大家都負擔的起的合理費用，
01:30
and what debts you accumulated,
you paid off by graduation date.
you paid off by graduation date.
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你累計的債務，
在你畢業那天就會償還完畢。
在你畢業那天就會償還完畢。
01:33
Not anymore.
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再也不是如此了。
01:35
Paul's daughter followed in his footsteps,
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保羅的女兒步上了他的後塵，
01:39
but with one difference:
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但有一點不同：
01:40
when she graduated five years ago,
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五年前她畢業的時候，
01:43
it was with a whopping debt.
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背負了龐大的債務。
01:45
Students like Kate have to take on a loan
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像凱特這樣的學生，必須貸款，
01:48
because the cost of higher education
has become unaffordable
has become unaffordable
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因為高等教育的學費飆漲到
01:51
for many if not most American families.
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大部分的美國家庭都負擔不起。
01:56
But so what?
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那又怎樣？
01:58
Getting into debt to buy
an expensive education
an expensive education
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如果教育增加的收入，
02:00
is not all bad if you could pay it off
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能夠償還昂貴教育欠下的債務
02:03
with the increased income
that you earned from it.
that you earned from it.
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也不錯啊！
02:07
But that's where the rubber
meets the road.
meets the road.
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但出社會後，才見真章。
02:11
Even a college grad
earned 10 percent more in 2001
earned 10 percent more in 2001
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2001年的大學畢業生，
02:17
than she did in 2013.
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竟然比 2013 的大學畢業生
收入多了一成。
收入多了一成。
02:19
So ...
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所以...
02:21
tuition costs up,
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學費上漲、
02:23
public funding down,
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公共預算下降、
02:25
family incomes diminished,
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家庭收入減低、
02:27
personal incomes weak.
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個人收入變少。
02:30
Is it any wonder that more
than a quarter of those who must
than a quarter of those who must
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有沒有人想過為什麼有
超過四分之一的學生，
超過四分之一的學生，
02:34
cannot make their student loan payments?
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無力償還他們的助學貸款？
02:38
The worst of times
can be the best of times,
can be the best of times,
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最壞的時機，
也許就是最好的轉機，
也許就是最好的轉機，
02:41
because certain truths flash up
in ways that you can't ignore.
in ways that you can't ignore.
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我們必須面對顯而易見的事實。
02:46
I want to speak of three of them today.
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我今天要舉出三件事。
02:49
1.2 trillion dollars of debts for diplomas
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第一：畢業文憑的 1.2 兆美金債務
02:53
make it abundantly obvious
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很明顯地告訴了大家，
02:55
that higher education
is a consumer product you can buy.
is a consumer product you can buy.
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高等教育是一種消費商品。
03:00
All of us talk about education
just as the economists do now,
just as the economists do now,
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我們現在談論教育的方法，
更像經濟學家，
更像經濟學家，
03:05
as an investment that you make
to improve the human stock
to improve the human stock
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把訓練學生就業，
改善人力儲備，
改善人力儲備，
03:09
by training them for work.
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視為一種投資。
03:11
As an investment you make
to sort and classify people
to sort and classify people
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把學生分門別類，視為一種投資，
03:16
so that employers
can hire them more easily.
can hire them more easily.
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好讓雇主可以更容易地聘僱他們。
03:20
The U.S. News & World Report
ranks colleges
ranks colleges
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美國新聞和各國媒體，
給學校的排名，
給學校的排名，
03:23
just as the consumer report
rates washing machines.
rates washing machines.
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就像在消費者報導裡面，
評論哪個洗衣機更好一樣。
評論哪個洗衣機更好一樣。
03:27
The language is peppered with barbarisms.
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報告裡充斥著野蠻的用詞，
03:30
Teachers are called "service providers,"
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老師是“服務業”，
03:34
students are called "consumers."
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學生被稱為“消費者“，
03:37
Sociology and Shakespeare
and soccer and science,
and soccer and science,
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社會學、莎士比亞文學、
足球、科學
足球、科學
03:41
all of these are "content."
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這些都變成了”內容“。
03:45
Student debt is profitable.
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助學貸款的利益豐厚，
03:46
Only not on you.
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但利益不歸於學生。
03:49
Your debt fattens the profit
of the student loan industry.
of the student loan industry.
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學生的債務養肥了學貸產業。
03:54
The two 800-pound gorillas of which --
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兩個龐大的貸款公司大猩猩
03:56
Sallie Mae and Navient --
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— Sallie Mae 和
Navient 貸款公司——
Navient 貸款公司——
03:58
posted last year a combined profit
of 1.2 billion dollars.
of 1.2 billion dollars.
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去年的整體獲利高達 12 億美金。
04:04
And just like home mortgages,
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跟房貸一樣，
04:07
student loans can be bundled
and packaged and sliced and diced,
and packaged and sliced and diced,
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學生貸款可以被包裝、
分割成衍生性金融產品
分割成衍生性金融產品
04:10
and sold on Wall Street.
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在華爾街販賣。
04:12
And colleges and universities
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學院跟大學
04:13
that invest in these securitized loans
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在這些抵押貸款證劵化的業務上
04:18
profit twice.
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扒了學生兩層皮。
04:19
Once from your tuition,
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一次從你的學費，
04:21
and then again from the interest on debt.
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之後從你的貸款利息。
04:25
With all that money to be made,
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這些賺來的錢，
04:27
are we surprised that some
in the higher education business
in the higher education business
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難道大家都不驚訝，
辦高等教育的這件事
辦高等教育的這件事
04:33
have begun to engage in false advertising,
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已經開始與不實廣告、
04:35
in bait and switch ...
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偷樑換柱的行為扯在一起了...
04:38
in exploiting the very ignorance
that they pretend to educate?
that they pretend to educate?
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假裝辦教育的名義，
行壓榨無知學生之實？
行壓榨無知學生之實？
04:44
Third:
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第三：
04:45
diplomas are a brand.
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學歷是一種名牌。
04:47
Many years ago my teacher wrote,
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好幾年前我的老師曾經寫道，
04:50
"When students are treated as consumers,
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“當學生被當作消費者，
04:52
they're made prisoners
of addiction and envy."
of addiction and envy."
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他們便成為妒意與癮頭的囚徒＂。
04:59
Just as consumers can be sold and resold
upgraded versions of an iPhone,
upgraded versions of an iPhone,
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就像消費者一直購買升級
不同版本的 iPhone 手機一樣，
不同版本的 iPhone 手機一樣，
05:04
so also people can be sold
more and more education.
more and more education.
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學生也得購買越來越多的教育商品。
05:08
College is the new high school,
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我們已經聽過，
05:10
we already say that.
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“專科學校變成了高中”的說法。
05:13
But why stop there?
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何不變本加厲？
05:14
People can be upsold
on certifications and recertifications,
on certifications and recertifications,
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我們可以不斷推銷各種證書、
認證再認證、
認證再認證、
05:18
master's degrees, doctoral degrees.
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碩士學位、博士學位。
05:23
Higher education is also marketed
as a status object.
as a status object.
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高等教育也被視為
一種身分的表徵。
一種身分的表徵。
05:28
Buy a degree,
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買個學歷，
05:29
much like you do a Lexus
of a Louis Vuitton bag,
of a Louis Vuitton bag,
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就像你買 Lexus，LV 包一樣，
05:33
to distinguish yourself from others.
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可以彰顯你的與眾不同，
05:34
So you can be the object
of envy of others.
of envy of others.
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讓你成為大家忌妒的對象。
05:38
Diplomas are a brand.
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文憑變成了一種名牌。
05:41
But these truths are often times
hidden by a very noisy sales pitch.
hidden by a very noisy sales pitch.
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但這些真相，
被各種喧鬧的銷售話術所掩蓋，
被各種喧鬧的銷售話術所掩蓋，
05:48
There is not a day that goes by
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幾乎每一天
05:50
without some policy guy
on television telling us,
on television telling us,
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你都能聽到電視上的名嘴說，
05:55
"A college degree is absolutely essential
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“大學學歷是不可或缺的，
05:57
to get on that up escalator
to a middle-class life."
to a middle-class life."
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有了它你才能晉升到
中產階級的生活＂
中產階級的生活＂
06:00
And the usual evidence offered
is the college premium:
is the college premium:
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他們舉出的數據通常是
「大學溢酬」：
「大學溢酬」：
06:04
a college grad who makes on average
56 percent more than a high school grad.
56 percent more than a high school grad.
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大學畢業生平均賺的錢
比高中生高56%的那種大學畢業生。
比高中生高56%的那種大學畢業生。
06:10
Let's look at that number more carefully,
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讓我們仔細檢視一下這些數據，
06:12
because on the face of it,
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表面上，
06:13
it seems to belie the stories we all hear
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似乎不同於我們一般聽說的
06:17
about college grads
working as baristas and cashiers.
working as baristas and cashiers.
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大學畢業生去賣咖啡和結帳的事實。
06:22
Of 100 people who enroll
in any form of post-secondary education,
in any form of post-secondary education,
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在一百個進入專科大學的學生裡，
06:27
45 do not complete it in a timely fashion,
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有 45 位無法在正常時間內完成學業，
06:30
for a number of reasons,
including financial.
including financial.
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原因很多，包括財務。
06:34
Of the 55 that do graduate,
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55 位的畢業生裡，
06:36
two will remain unemployed,
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2 個會一直沒有工作，
06:38
and another 18 are underemployed.
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18 個在打工。
06:42
So, college grads earn more
than high school grads,
than high school grads,
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是的，大學畢業生賺的比高中畢業生多，
06:45
but does it pay for the exorbitant tuition
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但這些所得能夠補足昂貴的學費，
06:48
and the lost wages while at college?
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和在學時損失的工資嗎？
06:51
Now even economists admit
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就連經濟學家都承認，
06:54
going to college pays off
for only those who complete it.
for only those who complete it.
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專科和大學是值得的：
前提是你必須畢業。
前提是你必須畢業。
07:00
But that's only because high school wages
have been cut to the bone,
have been cut to the bone,
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而且主要理由是高中畢業生
07:04
for decades now.
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過去幾10年來的薪資
被砍到見骨了。
被砍到見骨了。
07:07
For decades,
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這幾10年來，
07:09
workers with a high school degree
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高中畢業生，
07:11
have been denied a fair share
of what they have produced.
of what they have produced.
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他們的付出沒有得到相對的報酬，
07:16
And had they received as they should have,
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也因為他們沒有得到相對應的報酬，
07:19
then going to college would have been
a bad investment for many.
a bad investment for many.
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所以跑去上大學，但對很多人來說，
上大學根本不是一個很好的投資。
上大學根本不是一個很好的投資。
07:23
College premium?
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「大學溢酬」嗎？
（專科大學畢業生與他人的薪資所得差距）
（專科大學畢業生與他人的薪資所得差距）
07:25
I think it's a high school discount.
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在我看來，那只是從高中生
那邊奪來的收入。
那邊奪來的收入。
07:28
Two out of three people who enroll
are not going to find an adequate job.
are not going to find an adequate job.
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三分之二的專科大學生
不會找到適當的工作，
不會找到適當的工作，
07:33
And the future, for them,
doesn't look particularly promising --
doesn't look particularly promising --
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未來對他們來說，似乎也不樂觀——
07:36
in fact, it's downright bleak.
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實際上，前途黯淡，
07:38
And it is they who are going to suffer
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這三分之二的人
07:42
the most punishing forms of student debt.
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他們所背負的學貸是最殘忍的。
07:46
And it is they,
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這三分之二的人，
07:47
curiously and sadly,
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意外而悲哀地，
07:48
who are marketed most loudly
about this college premium thing.
about this college premium thing.
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最容易被「大學溢酬」這個概念吸引。
07:53
That's not just cynical marketing,
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這種推銷手法不僅冷酷，
07:56
that's cruel.
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而且無情。
07:59
So what do we do?
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所以，我們該怎麼做？
08:01
What if students and parents treated
higher education as a consumer product?
higher education as a consumer product?
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要是每個學生及家長都把高等教育
視為一種消費產品，那又如何？
視為一種消費產品，那又如何？
08:08
Everybody else seems to.
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這彷彿是不可爭的事實。
08:10
Then, like any other consumer product,
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那麼，不如像其他消費產品一樣，
08:12
you would demand to know
what you're paying for.
what you're paying for.
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你會想要知道你到底買了甚麼東西。
08:15
When you buy medicines,
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當你去買藥的時候，
08:16
you get a list of side effects.
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你能看到會有什麼副作用。
08:18
When you buy a higher educational product,
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當你購買高等教育產品時，
08:20
you should have a warning label
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也應該有個警告標示，
08:22
that allows consumers to choose,
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讓消費者在資訊透明下，
08:24
make informed choices.
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可以做出明智的選擇。
08:26
When you buy a car,
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當你購買一輛車，
08:28
it tells you how many
miles per gallon to expect.
miles per gallon to expect.
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它會告訴你一加侖
大概可以跑幾英哩。
大概可以跑幾英哩。
08:31
Who knows what to expect
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像是主修“加拿大學”，
08:32
from a degree say, in Canadian Studies.
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的預期薪資是怎樣的。
08:36
There is such a thing, by the way.
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這可不是我信口胡謅的。
08:40
What if there was an app for that?
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要是有一個 APP 程式呢？
08:46
One that linked up the cost of a major
to the expected income.
to the expected income.
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一個可以把主修科目
與未來收入連結的程式。
與未來收入連結的程式。
08:52
Let's call it Income-Based Tuition or IBT.
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我們先叫它做
＂以未來收入為基礎的學費＂或＂IBT＂。
＂以未來收入為基礎的學費＂或＂IBT＂。
08:54
One of you make this.
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你們其中一個人要做...
08:56
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
08:57
Discover your reality.
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挖掘真相。
08:59
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:01
There are three advantages,
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它有三個優點，
09:03
three benefits to Income-Based Tuition.
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IBT 有三個優點。
09:07
Any user can figure out
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任何人都可以找出
09:09
how much money he or she will make
from a given college and major.
from a given college and major.
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主修科目與未來收入的相關性。
09:13
Such informed users
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這樣的使用者就不會掉入
09:14
are unlikely to fall victim
to the huckster's ploy,
to the huckster's ploy,
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銷售人員的花言巧語
09:18
to the sales pitch.
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與銷售手段。
09:19
But also to choose wisely.
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可以更明智地選擇。
09:21
Why would anybody pay more for college
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應該不會有人為了
09:24
than let's say, 15 percent
of the additional income they earn?
of the additional income they earn?
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增加15％的收入而進專科大學吧？
09:29
There's a second benefit
to Income-Based Tuition.
to Income-Based Tuition.
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IBT 第二個優點：
09:31
By tying the cost to the income,
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一旦把學費和未來收入一起評估，
09:34
college administrators would be forced
to manage costs better,
to manage costs better,
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管理大學的主事者，
就會被迫把成本管理地更好，
就會被迫把成本管理地更好，
09:39
to find innovative ways to do so.
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找到更有創意的方式來辦教育。
09:41
For instance,
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舉例，
09:42
all of you students here pay roughly
the same tuition for every major.
the same tuition for every major.
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這裡全部的學生，不管主修哪一科，
都支付一樣的學費。
都支付一樣的學費。
09:47
That is manifestly unfair,
and should change.
and should change.
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這相當不公平，所以要改變。
09:52
An engineering student uses more resources
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工程系學生使用的設備、
09:56
and facilities and labs and faculty
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實驗室、教職員的資源肯定比
09:58
than a philosophy student.
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哲學系學生多。
10:01
But the philosophy student,
as a consequence,
as a consequence,
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但最後好像是哲學系學生在補貼
10:03
is subsidizing the engineering student.
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工程系學生學費一樣。
10:06
Who then, by the way,
goes on and earns more money.
goes on and earns more money.
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但後者的收入是比較好的。
10:09
Why should two people
buy the same product,
buy the same product,
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為什麼兩個人購買了相同的產品、
10:12
pay the same,
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支付同樣的費用、
10:13
but one person receive
half or a third of the service.
half or a third of the service.
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但其中一個人卻只收到
一半或三分之一的服務。
一半或三分之一的服務。
10:18
In fact, college grads, some majors,
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事實上，大學畢業生，
有一些主修科目，
有一些主修科目，
10:22
pay 25 percent of their income
servicing their student debt,
servicing their student debt,
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要多支付 25% 的收入
給他們的債權人，
給他們的債權人，
10:26
while others pay five percent.
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而其他主修科目要支付 5% 。
10:29
That kind if inequity would end
when majors are priced more correctly.
when majors are priced more correctly.
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當這修主修科目價格修正後，
這種不平等現象才會終結。
這種不平等現象才會終結。
10:35
Now of course, all this data --
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當然，有了這些數據
10:37
and one of you is going to do this, right?
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你們其中一個人要去做，好嗎？
10:39
All this data has to be well designed,
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這些數據要好好地設計，
10:41
maybe audited by public accounting firms
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可能需要公立的會記單位
來審計監督，
來審計監督，
10:43
to avoid statistical lies.
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避免統計騙局。
10:45
We know about statistics, right?
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我們都知道那是怎麼回事吧？
10:48
But be that as it may,
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但暫且不談。
10:50
the third and biggest benefit
of Income-Based Tuition,
of Income-Based Tuition,
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第三個 BIT 的優點：
10:54
is it would free Americans from the fear
and the fact of financial ruin
and the fact of financial ruin
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它會把美國人從購買了不良商品
10:59
because they bought a defective product.
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造成的財務問題中解救出來。
11:02
Perhaps, in time,
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也許，有一天，
11:05
young and old Americans may rediscover,
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老一輩跟年輕一輩的
美國人會再度發現，
美國人會再度發現，
11:07
as the gentleman said earlier,
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如同之前那位先生說的，
11:09
their curiosity, their love of learning --
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再度找回他們的好奇心、
對學習的熱愛--
對學習的熱愛--
11:11
begin to study what they love,
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念他們喜歡念的、
11:13
love what they study,
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讀他們喜歡讀的...
11:14
follow their passion ...
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追隨他們的熱情，
11:16
getting stimulated by their intelligence,
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被他們自己的天份所激勵，
11:19
follow paths of inquiry
that they really want to.
that they really want to.
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挖掘自己想問的問題。
11:22
After all, it was Eric and Kevin,
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別忘了，這是艾利克跟凱文，
11:27
two years ago,
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兩年前，
11:29
just exactly these kinds of young men,
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懷抱著現在年輕人一樣的夢想，
11:32
who prompted me and worked with me,
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來找我幫忙、一起工作，
11:35
and still do,
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到現在仍堅持著
11:36
in the study of indebted
students in America.
students in America.
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研究如何讓美國學生擺脫債務。
11:41
Thank you for your attention.
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感謝各位的聆聽。
11:42
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sajay Samuel - EducatorProfessor Sajay Samuel's proposal to reduce the burden of student loans is part of his larger preoccupation with thinking beyond the conventional categories of economics and ecology.
Why you should listen
Sajay Samuel is an award winning professor of accounting at the Smeal College of Business at Penn State University. He has organized seminars and lectured widely in Europe and elsewhere on a range of topics, including science and technology, the political economy of professions and decision theory.
Samuel received his Masters in Accounting and Ph.D in Business Administration from Penn State University in 1990 and 1995 respectively. Since then he has taught management accounting and related subjects to undergraduates, graduates, MBAs and Executives over assignments that included stints at Bucknell University and the University of Connecticut. He returned to Penn State in 2003 and now teaches a capstone course to all undergraduate business majors titled, "Business and Industry Analysis."
Samuel was awarded the 2006 Lester J. Shonto Faculty Award for Excellence in Accounting Education. Dr. Samuel's research has been published in such scholarly journals as Accounting, Organizations and Society, Administration Science Quarterly and Symbolic Interaction. His most recent work on accounting, technology and on the history of ideas, has appeared in three articles in the Encyclopedia of Science, Technology and Ethics (2005). His current research aims at clarifying the political implications of accounting practice. His studies in this area concern the political significance of administrative agencies and professional associations in liberal democratic polities. He has presented the early fruits of this work in France, Italy, Germany and England.
Sajay Samuel | Speaker | TED.com