TEDWomen 2015
Aspen Baker: A better way to talk about abortion
阿斯彭·贝克: 用更好的方式谈论堕胎
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,791,168 views
堕胎是非常普遍的。比如在美国，三分之一的女性将在她们的人生中经历堕胎，但是这个话题激起的强烈情绪——以及围绕它充满讽刺的政治言辞——并没有给我们的思考和公开辩论留下过多空间。在这场个人的，充满思考的演讲中，阿斯彭·贝克提供了一种既不“反对堕胎”也不“支持堕胎”，而是“支持你的声音”的方式，告诉了我们倾听和分享故事， 能在讨论复杂问题时发挥什么样的作用。
Aspen Baker - Listener
As abortion debates have turned black-and-white, Aspen Baker advocates being "pro-voice" -- listening respectfully and compassionately to all kinds of experiences. Full bio
As abortion debates have turned black-and-white, Aspen Baker advocates being "pro-voice" -- listening respectfully and compassionately to all kinds of experiences. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
It was the middle of summer
and well past closing time
and well past closing time
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那是盛夏中的一天，
在伯克利市中心的一间酒吧里，
在伯克利市中心的一间酒吧里，
00:15
in the downtown Berkeley bar
where my friend Polly and I
where my friend Polly and I
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我和我的朋友polly在那里当侍应，
00:17
worked together as bartenders.
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那会儿酒吧早就打烊了。
00:20
Usually at the end of our shift
we had a drink -- but not that night.
we had a drink -- but not that night.
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通常，在交接班后我们都会喝上一杯，
但那晚我们却没有喝。
但那晚我们却没有喝。
00:25
"I'm pregnant.
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“我怀孕了。
00:27
Not sure what I'm going
to do yet," I told Polly.
to do yet," I told Polly.
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我还不知道要怎么办，” 我告诉polly。
00:30
Without hesitation, she replied,
"I've had an abortion."
"I've had an abortion."
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她毫无迟疑地回答我，
“我做过人流。”
“我做过人流。”
00:34
Before Polly, no one had ever told me
that she'd had an abortion.
that she'd had an abortion.
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在polly之前，
从未有人告诉过我她曾经做过人流。
从未有人告诉过我她曾经做过人流。
00:40
I'd graduated from college
just a few months earlier
just a few months earlier
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那会儿我刚从大学毕业没几个月，
00:43
and I was in a new relationship
when I found out that I was pregnant.
when I found out that I was pregnant.
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而当我发现自己怀孕时，
我正处于一段新的恋爱关系中。
我正处于一段新的恋爱关系中。
00:47
When I thought about my choices,
I honestly did not know how to decide,
I honestly did not know how to decide,
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当我在思考要如何抉择时，
我真的不知如何是好，
我真的不知如何是好，
00:52
what criteria I should use.
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该采用怎样的标准。
00:55
How would I know what
the right decision was?
the right decision was?
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我怎么知道什么才是正确的决定？
00:58
I worried that I would regret
an abortion later.
an abortion later.
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我担心如果我选择人流，
将来也许会后悔。
将来也许会后悔。
01:03
Coming of age on the beaches
of Southern California,
of Southern California,
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我在南加州的海滩上度过了童年，
01:05
I grew up in the middle of
our nation's abortion wars.
our nation's abortion wars.
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成长在全国性反堕胎浪潮的高峰期。
01:09
I was born in a trailer on the third
anniversary of Roe vs. Wade.
anniversary of Roe vs. Wade.
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我出生在罗伊诉韦德案
胜利三周年之际。
胜利三周年之际。
01:15
Our community was surfing Christians.
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我们生活的社区都是基督教徒。
01:18
We cared about God, the less fortunate,
and the ocean.
and the ocean.
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我们关心上帝，贫困人群，
还有海洋环境。
还有海洋环境。
每个人都是反堕胎合法化的拥护者。
01:22
Everyone was pro-life.
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01:24
As a kid, the idea of abortion made me so
sad that I knew if I ever got pregnant
sad that I knew if I ever got pregnant
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作为一个孩子，堕胎的想法让我非常难过，
所以我知道即便怀孕了，
所以我知道即便怀孕了，
01:30
I could never have one.
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我也永远不会去堕胎。
01:33
And then I did.
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但我却真的这样做了。
这使我向未知走近了一步。
01:36
It was a step towards the unknown.
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01:39
But Polly had given me
a very special gift:
a very special gift:
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但polly给了我一个特别的礼物：
01:42
the knowledge that I wasn't alone
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让我懂得我并不是独自一人，
01:44
and the realization that abortion
was something that we can talk about.
was something that we can talk about.
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让我意识到堕胎
是一个我们可以共同讨论的问题。
是一个我们可以共同讨论的问题。
01:49
Abortion is common.
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堕胎，是很正常的事情。
01:51
According to the Guttmacher Institute,
one in three women in America
one in three women in America
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根据Guttmacher机构的调查，
美国有三分之一的女性
美国有三分之一的女性
01:54
will have an abortion in their lifetime.
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会在她们的人生中经历堕胎。
02:00
But for the last few decades, the dialogue
around abortion in the United States
around abortion in the United States
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但在过去的几十年，
在美国，关于堕胎的争论
在美国，关于堕胎的争论
02:04
has left little room for anything beyond
pro-life and pro-choice.
pro-life and pro-choice.
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并没有给反对和支持堕胎合法化人群
以更多的空间。
以更多的空间。
02:07
It's political and polarizing.
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这是政治化，两极化的。
02:10
But as much as abortion is hotly debated,
it's still rare for us,
it's still rare for us,
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尽管堕胎的辩论处于白热化，
但我们在生活中仍然很少提及，
但我们在生活中仍然很少提及，
02:14
whether as fellow women
or even just as fellow people,
or even just as fellow people,
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无论是对于女性，还是普通大众，
02:18
to talk with one another
about the abortions that we have.
about the abortions that we have.
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我们都很少相互谈及堕胎的话题。
02:24
There is a gap.
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这中间出现了脱节。
02:25
Between what happens in politics
and what happens in real life,
and what happens in real life,
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在政治和真实生活之间，
02:29
and in that gap, a battlefield mentality.
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脱节的地方正上演着
一场精神上的战争。
一场精神上的战争。
02:31
An "are you with us
or against us?" stance takes root.
or against us?" stance takes root.
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一个“你们到底支持还是
反对我们”的立场已经深入人心。
反对我们”的立场已经深入人心。
02:36
This isn't just about abortion.
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这并不仅仅只是关于堕胎。
02:38
There are so many important issues
that we can't talk about.
that we can't talk about.
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我们还有太多重要的话题无法谈论。
02:44
And so finding ways to shift the conflict
to a place of conversation
to a place of conversation
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所以寻找把冲突转化为对话的途径
02:49
is the work of my life.
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就成了我此生的追求。
02:53
There are two main ways to get started.
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我们可以以两种方式开始。
02:56
One way is to listen closely.
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第一种，就是认真倾听。
02:58
And the other way is to share stories.
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另一种，就是分享故事。
03:03
So, 15 years ago, I cofounded
an organization called Exhale
an organization called Exhale
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所以在15年前，
我与人合作创办了叫Exhale的组织，
我与人合作创办了叫Exhale的组织，
03:06
to start listening to people
who have had abortions.
who have had abortions.
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来倾听那些经历过堕胎的人们的故事。
我们做的第一件事，就是开启一条
谈话热线，让女人和男人们
谈话热线，让女人和男人们
03:10
The first thing we did was create
a talk-line, where women and men
a talk-line, where women and men
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可以打进来寻求精神支持。
03:13
could call to get emotional support.
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无关批判和政治， 实话实说
03:16
Free of judgment and politics,
believe it or not, nothing like our sevice
believe it or not, nothing like our sevice
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03:21
had ever existed.
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以前从来没有过一个
像我们这样的组织。
像我们这样的组织。
03:24
We needed a new framework that could
hold all the experiences that we were
hold all the experiences that we were
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我们需要形成一个
新的框架去处理在热线上
新的框架去处理在热线上
03:28
hearing on our talk-line.
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听到的所有故事。
03:30
The feminist who regrets her abortion.
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后悔堕胎的女权主义者。
03:33
The Catholic who is grateful for hers.
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对堕胎的决定感到庆幸的天主教徒。
03:36
The personal experiences that weren't
fitting neatly into one box or the other.
fitting neatly into one box or the other.
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个人经历本来就无法
被清晰地划分为某一类。
被清晰地划分为某一类。
03:41
We didn't think it was right
to ask women to pick a side.
to ask women to pick a side.
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我们认为让女人只选择一边是不对的。
我们想让她们知道，
当她们步入这段深刻的个人经历，
当她们步入这段深刻的个人经历，
03:45
We wanted to show them that
the whole world was on their side,
the whole world was on their side,
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这个世界是站在她们那一边的。
03:50
as they were going through this deeply
personal experience.
personal experience.
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所以我们创造了“支持你的声音”。
03:54
So we invented "pro-voice."
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03:58
Beyond abortion, pro-voice works on hard
issues that we've struggled with globally
issues that we've struggled with globally
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除了堕胎，“支持你的声音”
也致力于全球范围内持续多年的
也致力于全球范围内持续多年的
许多棘手的问题，
04:02
for years,
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04:04
issues like immigration, religious
tolerance, violence against women.
tolerance, violence against women.
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比如移民，宗教包容，针对女性的暴力。
04:09
It also works on deeply personal topics
that might only matter to you
that might only matter to you
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它也致力于解决那些可能
只涉及你个人，
只涉及你个人，
04:13
and your immediate family and friends.
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你的家人和朋友的问题。
04:15
They have a terminal illness,
their mother just died,
their mother just died,
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他们有人患了癌症晚期，
有人的母亲刚去世，
有人的母亲刚去世，
04:19
they have a child with special needs
and they can't talk about it.
and they can't talk about it.
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有人的孩子有特殊需求，
但他们无法开口。
但他们无法开口。
04:25
Listening and storytelling are
the hallmarks of pro-voice practice.
the hallmarks of pro-voice practice.
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倾听与分享故事是
“支持你的声音”的标签。
“支持你的声音”的标签。
04:31
Listening and storytelling.
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倾听，分享故事。
听上去真好。
04:33
That sounds pretty nice.
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听上去也许，很简单？
我们都能做到。
我们都能做到。
04:35
Sounds maybe, easy?
We could all do that.
We could all do that.
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04:39
It's not easy.
It's very hard.
It's very hard.
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但其实这并不简单，甚至非常困难。
04:42
Pro-voice is hard because we are talking
about things everyone's fighting about
about things everyone's fighting about
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运作“支持你的声音”难度很大，
因为我们谈论的是大家都在抗争的问题，
因为我们谈论的是大家都在抗争的问题，
04:48
or the things that no one
wants to talk about.
wants to talk about.
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或没人愿意谈及的话题。
04:51
I wish I could tell you that when you
decide to be pro-voice, that you'll find
decide to be pro-voice, that you'll find
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我希望能够告诉你们的是，
当你决定加入“支持你的声音”，你会发现
当你决定加入“支持你的声音”，你会发现
04:58
beautiful moments of breakthrough
and gardens full of flowers,
and gardens full of flowers,
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突破自我的美妙时刻和
满是鲜花的花园，
满是鲜花的花园，
05:02
where listening and storytelling
creates wonderful "a-ha" moments.
creates wonderful "a-ha" moments.
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倾听和分享故事时
会有灵感一现的时刻。
会有灵感一现的时刻。
05:07
I wish I could tell you that there would
be a feminist welcoming party for you,
be a feminist welcoming party for you,
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我希望能够告诉你们，
会有一个女权主义者的欢迎派对等着你，
会有一个女权主义者的欢迎派对等着你，
05:11
or that there's a long-lost sisterhood
of people who are just ready
of people who are just ready
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或者有一个久违了的姐妹会准备好
05:14
to have your back when you get slammed.
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在你遭受打击时在背后支持你。
但当讲述自己的故事却感到
没人真正关心你的时候，
没人真正关心你的时候，
05:18
But it can be vulnerable and exhausting
to tell our own stories
to tell our own stories
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05:22
when it feels like nobody cares.
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我们会变得很脆弱和心力交瘁。
05:26
And if we truly listen to one another,
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而且，当我们真正在倾听别人的时候，
05:30
we will hear things that demand
that we shift our own perceptions.
that we shift our own perceptions.
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我们会听到需要我们转变看法的事情。
05:37
There is no perfect time
and there is no perfect place
and there is no perfect place
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从来没有完美的时间和完美的地点
05:40
to start a difficult conversation.
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去开始一场艰难的对话。
05:43
There's never a time when everyone will be
on the same page, share the same lens,
on the same page, share the same lens,
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从来没有哪一个时刻，所有人都能
站在同一战线，分享同一视角，
站在同一战线，分享同一视角，
或了解同一段历史。
05:49
or know the same history.
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05:53
So, let's talk about listening
and how to be a good listener.
and how to be a good listener.
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那么，现在我们来讲讲倾听，
和如何成为一个优秀的倾听者。
和如何成为一个优秀的倾听者。
05:58
There's lots of ways to be a good listener
and I'm going to give you just a couple.
and I'm going to give you just a couple.
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有很多种方式可以成为良好的倾听者，
我只打算分享其中的几种。
我只打算分享其中的几种。
06:02
One is to ask open-ended questions.
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一种方法是开放式提问。
06:05
You can ask yourself or someone
that you know,
that you know,
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你可以问你自己或你认识的人
06:08
"How are you feeling?"
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“你觉得怎么样？”
06:11
"What was that like?"
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“那是一个什么样的过程？”
“你现在期待的是什么？”
06:14
"What do you hope for, now?"
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另一种成为优秀倾听者的方法
是使用反射性语言。
是使用反射性语言。
06:18
Another way to be a good listener
is to use reflective language.
is to use reflective language.
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06:22
If someone is talking about
their own personal experience,
their own personal experience,
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当有人谈论他们自己的个人经历时，
06:25
use the words that they use.
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用他们用过的词。
如果有人谈起堕胎并说了“婴儿”，
06:28
If someone is talking about an abortion
and they say the word "baby,"
and they say the word "baby,"
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06:31
you can say "baby."
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你也可以说“婴儿”。
06:33
If they say "fetus,"
you can say "fetus."
you can say "fetus."
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如果她们说“胎儿”，
你也可以说“胎儿”。
你也可以说“胎儿”。
06:36
If someone describes themselves
as gender queer to you,
as gender queer to you,
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如果有人形容自己是“性取向怪癖者”，
06:39
you can say "gender queer."
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你也可以说“性取向怪癖者”。
06:41
If someone kind of looks like a he,
but they say they're a she -- it's cool.
but they say they're a she -- it's cool.
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如果有人看起来像个男人，
但说自己是女人，也无妨，
但说自己是女人，也无妨，
06:45
Call that person a she.
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就称他为女人好了。
06:48
When we reflect the language of the person
who is sharing their own story,
who is sharing their own story,
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当我们重复故事分享者说过的语言，
我们传达出的是
我们有兴趣了解他们是谁，
我们有兴趣了解他们是谁，
06:51
we are conveying that we are interested
in understanding who they are
in understanding who they are
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06:57
and what they're going through.
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和他们正经历着什么。
我们也希望人们能同样想要了解我们。
06:59
The same way that we hope people are
interested in knowing us.
interested in knowing us.
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07:05
So, I'll never forget being in one
of the Exhale counselor meetings,
of the Exhale counselor meetings,
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我永远也不会忘记
在一次Exhale顾问大会中，
在一次Exhale顾问大会中，
07:08
listening to a volunteer talk about how
she was getting a lot of calls
she was getting a lot of calls
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一个志愿者讲述了她接到了许多电话，
07:12
from Christian women who
were talking about God.
were talking about God.
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都是来自想要大谈特谈上帝的女基督徒。
07:16
Now, some of our volunteers are religious,
but this particular one was not.
but this particular one was not.
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事实上我们的很多志愿者都有宗教信仰，
但这一位却没有。
但这一位却没有。
07:20
At first, it felt a little weird for her
to talk to callers about God.
to talk to callers about God.
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一开始，接电话的志愿者
对上帝这个话题感到很诡异。
对上帝这个话题感到很诡异。
07:24
So, she decided to get comfortable.
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所以，她决定先让自己感到舒服。
07:27
And she stood in front of her mirror
at home, and she said the word "God."
at home, and she said the word "God."
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于是她站在家中的镜子前，
说了“上帝”这个词。
说了“上帝”这个词。
07:31
"God."
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“上帝”
07:32
"God."
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“上帝”
07:33
"God."
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“上帝”
07:34
"God."
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“上帝”
07:35
"God."
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“上帝”
07:36
"God."
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“上帝”
一遍又一遍，
直到这个词从她口中说出来
直到这个词从她口中说出来
07:37
Over and over and over again
until the word no longer felt strange
until the word no longer felt strange
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07:41
coming out her mouth.
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不再变得奇怪。
讲出“上帝”这个词并不会
把这名志愿者变成一个基督徒，
把这名志愿者变成一个基督徒，
07:43
Saying the word God did not turn this
volunteer into a Christian,
volunteer into a Christian,
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07:47
but it did make her a much
better listener of Christian women.
better listener of Christian women.
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但却会让她成为女性基督教徒
更好的倾听者。
更好的倾听者。
07:54
So, another way to be pro-voice
is to share stories,
is to share stories,
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那么，还有一种支持别人声音的方法
就是分享故事，
就是分享故事，
07:58
and one risk that you take on, when you
share your story with someone else,
share your story with someone else,
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当你向别人分享故事时，
这当中有一个风险，
这当中有一个风险，
就是当别人处于和你同样的处境时，
08:02
is that given the same
set of circumstances as you
set of circumstances as you
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08:05
they might actually
make a different decision.
make a different decision.
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他们也许会做出不同的决定。
08:09
For example, if you're telling a story
about your abortion,
about your abortion,
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举个例子。
当你谈论你的堕胎经历时，
当你谈论你的堕胎经历时，
08:13
realize that she might have had the baby.
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会意识到她当初可能选择
把孩子生下来了。
把孩子生下来了。
她也许让别人去收养这个孩子。
08:18
She might have placed for adoption.
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她也许告诉了父母或伴侣，
也可能没有。
也可能没有。
08:21
She might have told her parents
and her partner -- or not.
and her partner -- or not.
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08:26
She might have felt relief and confidence,
even though you felt sad and lost.
even though you felt sad and lost.
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她也许感到释怀或自信，
即使你觉得悲伤和迷茫。
即使你觉得悲伤和迷茫。
08:32
This is okay.
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这都没关系。
08:35
Empathy gets created the moment we
imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes.
imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes.
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当我们想象自己正经历着别人的处境，
同情心就会油然而生。
同情心就会油然而生。
08:41
It doesn't mean we all have
to end up in the same place.
to end up in the same place.
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这并不意味着我们都要最后达成一致。
08:46
It's not agreement, it's not sameness
that pro-voice is after.
that pro-voice is after.
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这不是一个协议，
“支持你的声音“并不推崇千篇一律。
“支持你的声音“并不推崇千篇一律。
08:53
It creates a culture and a society that
values what make us special and unique.
values what make us special and unique.
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它创造了一个认可我们独特性和
唯一性的文化和社会。
唯一性的文化和社会。
08:59
It values what makes us human,
our flaws and our imperfections.
our flaws and our imperfections.
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它在乎是什么让我们成为人，
以及我们的错误和不完美。
以及我们的错误和不完美。
09:04
And this way of thinking allows us to see
our differences with respect,
our differences with respect,
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这种思维方式让我们能带着尊重
去看待我们之间的不同，
去看待我们之间的不同，
而不是恐惧。
09:09
instead of fear.
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而且它激发了我们所需的同情心，
09:12
And it generates the empathy that we need
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09:14
to overcome all the ways
that we try to hurt one another.
that we try to hurt one another.
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击败了我们尝试伤害他人的举动。
09:18
Stigma, shame, prejudice,
discrimination, oppression.
discrimination, oppression.
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耻辱，羞愧，偏见，歧视，压抑。
09:24
Pro-voice is contagious,
and the more it's practiced
and the more it's practiced
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”支持你的声音“富有感染性，
参与的人越多，
参与的人越多，
就传播得越广。
09:29
the more it spreads.
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09:35
So, last year I was pregnant again.
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去年，我又一次怀孕了。
09:38
This time I was looking forward
to the birth of my son.
to the birth of my son.
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这一次，我非常期待我儿子的出生。
09:42
And while pregnant, I had never been asked
how I was feeling so much in all my life.
how I was feeling so much in all my life.
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而在我怀孕期间，
我从没被问过那么多次“你觉得怎样”。
我从没被问过那么多次“你觉得怎样”。
（笑声）
09:48
(Laughter)
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09:50
And however I replied, whether I was
feeling wonderful and excited
feeling wonderful and excited
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而无论我如何回答，
无论我感觉棒级了，兴奋极了，
无论我感觉棒级了，兴奋极了，
还是恐慌到快要崩溃了，
09:54
or scared and totally freaked out,
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总会有人对我说“我会陪着你”。
09:57
there was always someone there
giving me a "been there" response.
giving me a "been there" response.
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10:01
It was awesome.
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这感觉真太好了。
10:03
It was a welcome, yet dramatic
departure from what I experience
departure from what I experience
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这让我在经历过堕胎的复杂感受后，
人生又迎来了新的起点，
人生又迎来了新的起点，
10:08
when I talk about
my mixed feelings of my abortion.
my mixed feelings of my abortion.
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迎接我的是充满问候和惊喜的未来。
10:13
Pro-voice is about the real stories
of real people
of real people
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“支持你的声音”关心的都是真人真事，
10:16
making an impact on the way abortion
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他们造成的影响使得堕胎这个话题，
10:19
and so many other politicized
and stigmatized issues
and stigmatized issues
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以及其他很多被政治化的，
被玷污的话题
被玷污的话题
10:23
are understood and discussed.
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都得以被理解和讨论。
10:25
From sexuality and mental health
to poverty and incarceration.
to poverty and incarceration.
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从性和心理健康，到贫困和监禁。
与其用单一的对或错的决定来定义，
10:31
Far beyond definition
as single right or wrong decisions,
as single right or wrong decisions,
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10:35
our experiences can exist on a spectrum.
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我们的经历更应该
存在于某一个范畴内。
存在于某一个范畴内。
10:40
Pro-voice focuses that conversation
on human experience
on human experience
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“支持你的声音”关注那些
关于人类体验的对话，
关于人类体验的对话，
10:44
and it makes support and respect
possible for all.
possible for all.
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而且它让支持和尊重
对所有人都成为了可能。
对所有人都成为了可能。
10:50
Thank you.
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谢谢大家。
10:52
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Aspen Baker - ListenerAs abortion debates have turned black-and-white, Aspen Baker advocates being "pro-voice" -- listening respectfully and compassionately to all kinds of experiences.
Why you should listen
When Aspen Baker had an abortion at 24, she felt caught between warring pro-life and pro-choice factions, with no space to share her feelings. So she cofounded Exhale, a nonprofit that offers women and men emotional support after an abortion, free of judgment and politics. After being constantly asked to pick a side in the abortion conflict, Baker and her cofounders started a new conversation.
Leaving the black-and-white debate behind, they embraced the gray areas and personal stories hidden behind the fight. They invented “pro-voice,” a philosophy and practice that uses listening and storytelling to help people have respectful, compassionate exchanges about abortion, and many other controversial topics. Called a “fun, fearless female” by Cosmopolitan, Baker is an award-winning leader and author of Pro-Voice: How to Keep Listening When the World Wants a Fight.
More profile about the speakerLeaving the black-and-white debate behind, they embraced the gray areas and personal stories hidden behind the fight. They invented “pro-voice,” a philosophy and practice that uses listening and storytelling to help people have respectful, compassionate exchanges about abortion, and many other controversial topics. Called a “fun, fearless female” by Cosmopolitan, Baker is an award-winning leader and author of Pro-Voice: How to Keep Listening When the World Wants a Fight.
Aspen Baker | Speaker | TED.com