TEDGlobal>London
Jennifer Doudna: How CRISPR lets us edit our DNA
詹妮弗 道娜: 我们现在可以编辑我们的DNA，但要明智地对待它。
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遗传学专家詹妮弗道娜与同事共同发明了一种突破性的新技术”基因编辑技术“，被称为CRISPR-Cas9。该工具允许科学家们对DNA进行精确的编辑，这可能对遗传性疾病的治疗有帮助...但也可能会被用来创造所谓的“订制婴儿”。道娜展示了CRISPR-Cas9的作用原理——并要求科学界暂缓脚步，来讨论这个新工具背后的伦理问题。
Jennifer Doudna - Biologist
Jennifer Doudna was part of inventing a potentially world-changing genetic technology: the gene editing technology CRISPR-Cas9. Full bio
Jennifer Doudna was part of inventing a potentially world-changing genetic technology: the gene editing technology CRISPR-Cas9. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
几年前，
00:13
A few years ago,
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with my colleague, Emmanuelle Charpentier,
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我跟同事Emmanuelle Charpentier
发明了一个可以编辑基因组的新技术。
00:17
I invented a new technology
for editing genomes.
for editing genomes.
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它叫做 "CRISPR-Cas9" 。
00:21
It's called CRISPR-Cas9.
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00:23
The CRISPR technology allows
scientists to make changes
scientists to make changes
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CRISPR技术让科学家
00:27
to the DNA in cells
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可以改变细胞里的DNA，
从而让我们能够治愈基因疾病。
00:29
that could allow us
to cure genetic disease.
to cure genetic disease.
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你可能有兴趣想知道，
00:33
You might be interested to know
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CRISPR技术其实来自于
一个基础的科学研究，
一个基础的科学研究，
00:34
that the CRISPR technology came about
through a basic research project
through a basic research project
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它的主要目的是了解细菌
如何与病毒感染进行对抗。
如何与病毒感染进行对抗。
00:38
that was aimed at discovering
how bacteria fight viral infections.
how bacteria fight viral infections.
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细菌必须在它们的环境里对付病毒。
00:43
Bacteria have to deal with viruses
in their environment,
in their environment,
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我们可以这么想，
病毒感染像是个定时炸弹，
病毒感染像是个定时炸弹，
00:46
and we can think about a viral infection
like a ticking time bomb --
like a ticking time bomb --
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细菌在被消灭前，
00:49
a bacterium has only a few minutes
to defuse the bomb
to defuse the bomb
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只有几分钟时间可以拆除炸弹。
00:53
before it gets destroyed.
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00:55
So, many bacteria have in their cells
an adaptive immune system called CRISPR,
an adaptive immune system called CRISPR,
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很多细菌在它们的细胞里有一种
适应力免疫系统叫做 "CRISPR" ，
适应力免疫系统叫做 "CRISPR" ，
01:00
that allows them to detect
viral DNA and destroy it.
viral DNA and destroy it.
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它可以使细菌侦测到
病毒DNA并消灭它。
病毒DNA并消灭它。
CRISPR系统中，有一部分
是一种叫Cas9的蛋白质，
是一种叫Cas9的蛋白质，
01:05
Part of the CRISPR system
is a protein called Cas9,
is a protein called Cas9,
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它能够以特殊的方式寻找出、剪断，
01:09
that's able to seek out, cut
and eventually degrade viral DNA
and eventually degrade viral DNA
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最后削弱病毒DNA。
01:15
in a specific way.
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我们的研究主要是想
01:17
And it was through our research
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01:18
to understand the activity
of this protein, Cas9,
of this protein, Cas9,
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了解Cas9蛋白质的活动，
01:22
that we realized that we could
harness its function
harness its function
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我们意识到可以驾驭它的功能，
把它当做一种基因工程技术——
01:25
as a genetic engineering technology --
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一种可以让科学家用
难以置信的精准度
难以置信的精准度
01:28
a way for scientists to delete or insert
specific bits of DNA into cells
specific bits of DNA into cells
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来消除或插入特定DNA片段
到细胞中——
到细胞中——
01:35
with incredible precision --
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这项技术提供了一个前所未有的机会，
01:37
that would offer opportunities
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01:39
to do things that really haven't
been possible in the past.
been possible in the past.
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让我们可以做到在过去
根本无法完成的事情。
根本无法完成的事情。
CRISPR技术已经被应用于
01:43
The CRISPR technology
has already been used
has already been used
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改变老鼠和猴子细胞里的DNA，
01:45
to change the DNA in the cells
of mice and monkeys,
of mice and monkeys,
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还包括其他有机体。
01:50
other organisms as well.
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中国科学家最近发现，
01:52
Chinese scientists showed recently
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他们甚至可以利用CRISPR技术
01:54
that they could even use
the CRISPR technology
the CRISPR technology
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改变人类胚胎里的基因。
01:56
to change genes in human embryos.
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费城的科学家证实，
他们可以利用CRISPR 技术
他们可以利用CRISPR 技术
01:59
And scientists in Philadelphia showed
they could use CRISPR
they could use CRISPR
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从一个感染的人类细胞中
02:02
to remove the DNA
of an integrated HIV virus
of an integrated HIV virus
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移除HIV病毒(人类免疫缺陷病毒 )。
02:07
from infected human cells.
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这个充满契机的基因组编辑技术，
02:10
The opportunity to do this kind
of genome editing
of genome editing
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也引发了各种我们必须
认真思考的道德争议。
认真思考的道德争议。
02:13
also raises various ethical issues
that we have to consider,
that we have to consider,
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因为这种技术不仅可以
运用在成人细胞上，
运用在成人细胞上，
02:16
because this technology can be employed
not only in adult cells,
not only in adult cells,
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也可以用在有机体的胚胎上，
02:20
but also in the embryos of organisms,
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02:23
including our own species.
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包含我们人类自己。
所以，我和同事们呼吁，
02:26
And so, together with my colleagues,
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要针对这项技术
展开一次全球对话，
展开一次全球对话，
02:28
I've called for a global conversation
about the technology that I co-invented,
about the technology that I co-invented,
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思考应该赋予这种技术的
02:33
so that we can consider all of the ethical
and societal implications
and societal implications
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道德与社会责任。
02:37
of a technology like this.
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02:40
What I want to do now is tell you
what the CRISPR technology is,
what the CRISPR technology is,
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那么现在，我要告诉你们
CRISPR技术是什么、
CRISPR技术是什么、
它可以做什么、
02:45
what it can do,
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目前的发展状况、
02:46
where we are today
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以及我为什么认为我们
需要一个缜密的思路
需要一个缜密的思路
02:47
and why I think we need to take
a prudent path forward
a prudent path forward
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02:50
in the way that we employ this technology.
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来运用这项技术。
当病毒感染一个细胞，
它们会插入自身的DNA。
它们会插入自身的DNA。
02:55
When viruses infect a cell,
they inject their DNA.
they inject their DNA.
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02:59
And in a bacterium,
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在一个细菌中，
CRISPR系统可以把病毒的DNA拔掉，
03:00
the CRISPR system allows that DNA
to be plucked out of the virus,
to be plucked out of the virus,
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并且将其中一小段插入到染色体内——
03:05
and inserted in little bits
into the chromosome --
into the chromosome --
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也就是细菌的DNA。
03:09
the DNA of the bacterium.
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而这些成簇的病毒DNA会被插入到
一个名为CRISPR的位点。
一个名为CRISPR的位点。
03:11
And these integrated bits of viral DNA
get inserted at a site called CRISPR.
get inserted at a site called CRISPR.
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03:18
CRISPR stands for clustered regularly
interspaced short palindromic repeats.
interspaced short palindromic repeats.
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CRISPR意思是
"规律成簇的间隔短回文重复"。
"规律成簇的间隔短回文重复"。
(笑声)
03:24
(Laughter)
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很绕口——这回你们就知道为什么
我们要使用CRISPR的缩写了。
我们要使用CRISPR的缩写了。
03:25
A big mouthful -- you can see why
we use the acronym CRISPR.
we use the acronym CRISPR.
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CRISPR是一种机制——
它允许细胞随时纪录
它允许细胞随时纪录
03:28
It's a mechanism that allows cells
to record, over time,
to record, over time,
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被感染到的病毒。
03:32
the viruses they have been exposed to.
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03:35
And importantly, those bits of DNA
are passed on to the cells' progeny,
are passed on to the cells' progeny,
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而且重要的是，这些片段DNA
会遗传到细胞的后代，
会遗传到细胞的后代，
03:40
so cells are protected from viruses
not only in one generation,
not only in one generation,
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所以细胞不只有一代会
一直被保护不受病毒感染，
一直被保护不受病毒感染，
好几代的细胞都会如此。
03:44
but over many generations of cells.
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03:47
This allows the cells
to keep a record of infection,
to keep a record of infection,
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这允许细胞持有受感染的纪录，
就像我同事Blake Wiedenheft喜欢说的，
03:51
and as my colleague,
Blake Wiedenheft, likes to say,
Blake Wiedenheft, likes to say,
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03:54
the CRISPR locus is effectively
a genetic vaccination card in cells.
a genetic vaccination card in cells.
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CRISPR的基因座其实上就是
细胞的一张基因疫苗接种卡。
细胞的一张基因疫苗接种卡。
一旦这些片段DNA被插入到
细菌染色体内，
细菌染色体内，
04:00
Once those bits of DNA have been inserted
into the bacterial chromosome,
into the bacterial chromosome,
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细胞就会复制出
一小段叫RNA的分子，
一小段叫RNA的分子，
04:05
the cell then makes a little copy
of a molecule called RNA,
of a molecule called RNA,
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就是照片上的橘色的部分，
04:09
which is orange in this picture,
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04:11
that is an exact replicate
of the viral DNA.
of the viral DNA.
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它就是病毒DNA的复制品。
RNA相当于DNA的化学表亲，
04:16
RNA is a chemical cousin of DNA,
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04:18
and it allows interaction
with DNA molecules
with DNA molecules
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能够与DNA上
相同序列的分子产生反应。
04:22
that have a matching sequence.
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04:25
So those little bits of RNA
from the CRISPR locus
from the CRISPR locus
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所以这些从CRISPR 基因座
转录的RNA片段，
转录的RNA片段，
04:29
associate -- they bind --
to protein called Cas9,
to protein called Cas9,
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会与一种叫Cas9的蛋白质相结合，
也就是照片上白色的部分，
04:33
which is white in the picture,
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这个蛋白质综合体像是细胞的卫兵。
04:34
and form a complex that functions
like a sentinel in the cell.
like a sentinel in the cell.
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04:39
It searches through all
of the DNA in the cell,
of the DNA in the cell,
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它会搜寻细胞里所有的DNA，
找到符合所结合的RNA序列的位点。
04:42
to find sites that match
the sequences in the bound RNAs.
the sequences in the bound RNAs.
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当这些位置被找到后——
04:46
And when those sites are found --
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04:48
as you can see here,
the blue molecule is DNA --
the blue molecule is DNA --
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就是你们看到的蓝色DNA分子，
这个综合体会与DNA结合，
04:52
this complex associates with that DNA
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并允许 Cas9蛋白质像刀一样
切断病毒DNA。
切断病毒DNA。
04:54
and allows the Cas9 cleaver
to cut up the viral DNA.
to cut up the viral DNA.
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这是一次非常精确的截断。
05:00
It makes a very precise break.
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05:04
So we can think of the Cas9 RNA
sentinel complex
sentinel complex
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所以我们可以把Cas9 RNA标记复合体
想像成是一把DNA剪刀——
05:08
like a pair of scissors
that can cut DNA --
that can cut DNA --
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它在DNA螺旋结构中，
制造了一种"双股螺旋断裂"。
制造了一种"双股螺旋断裂"。
05:11
it makes a double-stranded break
in the DNA helix.
in the DNA helix.
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最重要的是，
这种复合体是可程式化的，
这种复合体是可程式化的，
05:14
And importantly,
this complex is programmable,
this complex is programmable,
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在程式化后可以用来
辨认特定的DNA序列，
辨认特定的DNA序列，
05:18
so it can be programmed to recognize
particular DNA sequences,
particular DNA sequences,
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并且在DNA的特定位置
制造一个断裂。
制造一个断裂。
05:24
and make a break in the DNA at that site.
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我现在想要告诉大家，
05:27
As I'm going to tell you now,
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05:29
we recognized that that activity
could be harnessed for genome engineering,
could be harnessed for genome engineering,
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我们已经意识到这个技术，
可以被利用于基因工程中，
可以被利用于基因工程中，
就在我提到过的断裂处
使细胞内的DNA
使细胞内的DNA
05:34
to allow cells to make
a very precise change to the DNA
a very precise change to the DNA
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产生一个非常精准的变化。
05:38
at the site where
this break was introduced.
this break was introduced.
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这个方式有点类似于
05:41
That's sort of analogous
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05:42
to the way that we use
a word-processing program
a word-processing program
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我们使用文字处理软件
05:45
to fix a typo in a document.
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在一个文档中修改错字一样。
我们意识到CRISPR系统
可以被用于基因组工程的原因是，
可以被用于基因组工程的原因是，
05:49
The reason we envisioned using
the CRISPR system for genome engineering
the CRISPR system for genome engineering
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细胞具有检测损坏的DNA，
05:54
is because cells have the ability
to detect broken DNA
to detect broken DNA
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并修复它的能力。
05:58
and repair it.
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05:59
So when a plant or an animal cell detects
a double-stranded break in its DNA,
a double-stranded break in its DNA,
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所以当一个植物或动物细胞在
它的DNA中检测到双股螺旋断裂时，
它的DNA中检测到双股螺旋断裂时，
它可以修复这种断裂，
06:04
it can fix that break,
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把破裂的DNA尾端接合在一起，
06:06
either by pasting together
the ends of the broken DNA
the ends of the broken DNA
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只在那个位置的序列产生微小的变化，
06:09
with a little, tiny change
in the sequence of that position,
in the sequence of that position,
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或者，也可以借由在该位置处
聚集新的DNA片段来修复断裂。
聚集新的DNA片段来修复断裂。
06:14
or it can repair the break by integrating
a new piece of DNA at the site of the cut.
a new piece of DNA at the site of the cut.
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所以如果我们有一种方式
可以引导 "双股螺旋断裂"
可以引导 "双股螺旋断裂"
06:21
So if we have a way to introduce
double-stranded breaks into DNA
double-stranded breaks into DNA
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精准地进入DNA，
06:26
at precise places,
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我们就可以刺激细胞来
修复这些断裂，
修复这些断裂，
06:27
we can trigger cells
to repair those breaks,
to repair those breaks,
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通过破坏或合并新的遗传信息。
06:30
by either the disruption or incorporation
of new genetic information.
of new genetic information.
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所以如果我们可以
程式化CRISPR技术
程式化CRISPR技术
06:35
So if we were able to program
the CRISPR technology
the CRISPR technology
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在DNA里制造断裂，
06:39
to make a break in DNA
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例如，在囊性纤维化发生突变的
位置处或附近制造断裂，
位置处或附近制造断裂，
06:41
at the position at or near a mutation
causing cystic fibrosis, for example,
causing cystic fibrosis, for example,
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我们就可以刺激细胞去修复那个突变。
06:47
we could trigger cells
to repair that mutation.
to repair that mutation.
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基因工程并不是什么新技术，
它在1970年代就发展起来了。
它在1970年代就发展起来了。
06:52
Genome engineering is actually not new,
it's been in development since the 1970s.
it's been in development since the 1970s.
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我们已经拥有DNA测序技术，
06:57
We've had technologies for sequencing DNA,
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DNA复制技术，
07:00
for copying DNA,
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07:01
and even for manipulating DNA.
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甚至DNA修改技术。
这些技术前程无量，
07:04
And these technologies
were very promising,
were very promising,
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但问题是它们要么效率不高，
07:08
but the problem was
that they were either inefficient,
that they were either inefficient,
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要么操作太复杂，
07:12
or they were difficult enough to use
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所以大部分科学家们并不在
实验室采用这项技术，
实验室采用这项技术，
07:14
that most scientists had not adopted them
for use in their own laboratories,
for use in their own laboratories,
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或是应用于临床。
07:19
or certainly for many
clinical applications.
clinical applications.
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而CRISPR的技术相对简单，
07:24
So, the opportunity to take a technology
like CRISPR and utilize it has appeal,
like CRISPR and utilize it has appeal,
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所以使用它的机会已展露曙光。
07:32
because of its relative simplicity.
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我们可以想像一下
旧的基因工程技术
旧的基因工程技术
07:35
We can think of older
genome engineering technologies
genome engineering technologies
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07:38
as similar to having
to rewire your computer
to rewire your computer
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就好比每次你要安装新的软件，
就要把电脑升级一次一样。
07:42
each time you want to run
a new piece of software,
a new piece of software,
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而CRISPR技术就像基因组的软件，
07:46
whereas the CRISPR technology
is like software for the genome,
is like software for the genome,
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利用这些RNA小片段，
我们可以简单地编辑它。
我们可以简单地编辑它。
07:50
we can program it easily,
using these little bits of RNA.
using these little bits of RNA.
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那么一旦双股螺旋断裂在DNA中发生，
07:54
So once a double-stranded
break is made in DNA,
break is made in DNA,
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07:57
we can induce repair,
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我们就可以诱导修复，
由此有可能达到惊人的效果，
07:59
and thereby potentially achieve
astounding things,
astounding things,
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比如, 能够修正引起镰刀细胞贫血症，
08:03
like being able to correct mutations
that cause sickle cell anemia
that cause sickle cell anemia
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或引起亨廷顿氏病的突变。
08:07
or cause Huntington's Disease.
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08:09
I actually think that the first
applications of the CRISPR technology
applications of the CRISPR technology
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我认为CRISPR技术的第一项应用
08:13
are going to happen in the blood,
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会在血液里发生，
08:15
where it's relatively easier
to deliver this tool into cells,
to deliver this tool into cells,
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相对于坚硬组织而言,
更能简单地在细胞内导入这项技术。
08:20
compared to solid tissues.
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目前, 很多工作已经运用在
08:23
Right now, a lot of the work
that's going on
that's going on
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人类疾病的动物模型中，例如，老鼠。
08:26
applies to animal models
of human disease, such as mice.
of human disease, such as mice.
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这技术已经被用来
实现非常精准的改变，
实现非常精准的改变，
08:30
The technology is being used to make
very precise changes
very precise changes
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使我们能够研究细胞DNA里的变化，
08:33
that allow us to study the way
that these changes in the cell's DNA
that these changes in the cell's DNA
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08:38
affect either a tissue or,
in this case, an entire organism.
in this case, an entire organism.
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不论是对一个组织或
像这个案例中的, 整个有机体。
像这个案例中的, 整个有机体。
在这个案例中，
08:43
Now in this example,
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08:44
the CRISPR technology
was used to disrupt a gene
was used to disrupt a gene
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借由在DNA里的小改变，
CRISPR技术被用来扰乱
08:48
by making a tiny change in the DNA
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关联这些老鼠黑色皮肤的基因。
08:51
in a gene that is responsible
for the black coat color of these mice.
for the black coat color of these mice.
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想像一下, 这些白色的老鼠
与它们有色小同伴不同的原因，
与它们有色小同伴不同的原因，
08:56
Imagine that these white mice
differ from their pigmented litter-mates
differ from their pigmented litter-mates
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仅是由于在整个基因组中的
一个小改变，
一个小改变，
09:01
by just a tiny change at one gene
in the entire genome,
in the entire genome,
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除此之外, 它们几乎一模一样。
09:05
and they're otherwise completely normal.
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09:07
And when we sequence the DNA
from these animals,
from these animals,
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当我们对这些动物的基因做测序，
我们发现了在基因里的变化
09:10
we find that the change in the DNA
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就精准地发生在我们
09:13
has occurred at exactly the place
where we induced it,
where we induced it,
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使用CRISPR技术的地方。
09:16
using the CRISPR technology.
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更多的实验也正在
其它动物身上进行中，
其它动物身上进行中，
09:19
Additional experiments
are going on in other animals
are going on in other animals
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被当做人类疾病的的试验模型,
09:22
that are useful for creating models
for human disease,
for human disease,
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像是猴子。
09:26
such as monkeys.
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我们在此发现, 我们可以使用这系统
09:28
And here we find
that we can use these systems
that we can use these systems
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在特定组织中运用这项技术，
09:31
to test the application of this technology
in particular tissues,
in particular tissues,
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例如, 如何传送CRISPR工具到细胞中。
09:35
for example, figuring out how to deliver
the CRISPR tool into cells.
the CRISPR tool into cells.
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我们也想进一步了解
09:40
We also want to understand better
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如何控制DNA在切断后的修复方式，
09:42
how to control the way
that DNA is repaired after it's cut,
that DNA is repaired after it's cut,
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也更想知道如何控制并限制
任何一种偏离目标的状况，
任何一种偏离目标的状况，
09:46
and also to figure out how to control
and limit any kind of off-target,
and limit any kind of off-target,
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或者使用这技术时的副作用。
09:51
or unintended effects
of using the technology.
of using the technology.
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我想我们会在十年内就看到
09:56
I think that we will see
clinical application of this technology,
clinical application of this technology,
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它在临床上的应用，
10:02
certainly in adults,
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特别是在成人身上。
10:04
within the next 10 years.
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我认为在这段期间，
我们很可能会看到临床试验，
我们很可能会看到临床试验，
10:05
I think that it's likely
that we will see clinical trials
that we will see clinical trials
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甚至也有可能是
获得批准的治疗方式，
获得批准的治疗方式，
10:08
and possibly even approved
therapies within that time,
therapies within that time,
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10:12
which is a very exciting thing
to think about.
to think about.
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想想的确是件令人兴奋的事。
另外，因为这项技术的兴起，
10:15
And because of the excitement
around this technology,
around this technology,
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也涌现了很多初创公司，
10:17
there's a lot of interest
in start-up companies
in start-up companies
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致力于CRISPR技术的商业化，
10:20
that have been founded
to commercialize the CRISPR technology,
to commercialize the CRISPR technology,
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也有很多风险投资家
10:25
and lots of venture capitalists
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开始为这些公司投资。
10:27
that have been investing
in these companies.
in these companies.
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但我们也必须要思考一件事，
10:31
But we have to also consider
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10:32
that the CRISPR technology can be used
for things like enhancement.
for things like enhancement.
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就是CRISPR技术能被
用在强化性能上。
用在强化性能上。
想像一下我们可以尝试设计制造人类，
10:36
Imagine that we could try
to engineer humans
to engineer humans
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像是拥有更强壮的骨骼，
10:39
that have enhanced properties,
such as stronger bones,
such as stronger bones,
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或降低心血管疾病的诱发机率，
10:44
or less susceptibility
to cardiovascular disease
to cardiovascular disease
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甚至拥有我们
10:48
or even to have properties
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期待已久的特征，
10:49
that we would consider maybe
to be desirable,
to be desirable,
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像是不同的眼睛颜色,
或长得更高。
或长得更高。
10:52
like a different eye color
or to be taller, things like that.
or to be taller, things like that.
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"订制人"，你们也可以这么理解。
10:57
"Designer humans," if you will.
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目前为止，关于哪些类型的基因
11:00
Right now, the genetic information
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11:03
to understand what types of genes
would give rise to these traits
would give rise to these traits
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会有这些特征，相关的基因信息
大部分仍是未知的。
11:07
is mostly not known.
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但了解CRISPR技术提供了我们一个
11:09
But it's important to know
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11:10
that the CRISPR technology gives us a tool
to make such changes,
to make such changes,
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可以改变现状的工具是很重要的，
11:15
once that knowledge becomes available.
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尤其是当我们获得了
这些基因信息之后。
这些基因信息之后。
这会引发一系列我们
必须仔细考量的道德问题，
必须仔细考量的道德问题，
11:18
This raises a number of ethical questions
that we have to carefully consider,
that we have to carefully consider,
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这也是为什么我跟我的同事们
想要呼吁全世界暂缓
想要呼吁全世界暂缓
11:22
and this is why I and my colleagues
have called for a global pause
have called for a global pause
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任何临床上有关CRISPR在
人类胚胎上的应用，
人类胚胎上的应用，
11:27
in any clinical application
of the CRISPR technology in human embryos,
of the CRISPR technology in human embryos,
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11:31
to give us time
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给我们一些时间，
让我们认真思考
各种不同的CRISPR应用。
各种不同的CRISPR应用。
11:32
to really consider all of the various
implications of doing so.
implications of doing so.
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实际上，在1970年代，
11:37
And actually, there is an important
precedent for such a pause
precedent for such a pause
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有一个类似这样暂缓的重要例子，
11:41
from the 1970s,
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当时科学家们聚集在一起，
11:42
when scientists got together
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呼吁暂缓使用 "分子克隆"，
11:44
to call for a moratorium
on the use of molecular cloning,
on the use of molecular cloning,
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直到那个技术可以
安全地被小心测试并验证。
安全地被小心测试并验证。
11:48
until the safety of that technology
could be tested carefully and validated.
could be tested carefully and validated.
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虽然经过基因工程改造的人类
还尚未出现，
还尚未出现，
11:55
So, genome-engineered humans
are not with us yet,
are not with us yet,
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但这已经不仅仅是科幻小说了。
12:00
but this is no longer science fiction.
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12:04
Genome-engineered animals and plants
are happening right now.
are happening right now.
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动物及植物的基因改造
正在进行中。
正在进行中。
这也使我们每一个人都
面临一项重大责任，
面临一项重大责任，
12:09
And this puts in front of all of us
a huge responsibility,
a huge responsibility,
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12:13
to consider carefully
both the unintended consequences
both the unintended consequences
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来认真思考这个科技突破
可能会带来的
可能会带来的
未知后果和可预见的冲击。
12:17
as well as the intended impacts
of a scientific breakthrough.
of a scientific breakthrough.
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谢谢各位!
12:22
Thank you.
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(掌声)
12:23
(Applause)
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4000
12:31
(Applause ends)
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(掌声结束)
Bruno Giussani (BG)：詹妮弗 ，
这是个具有很大影响力的技术，
这是个具有很大影响力的技术，
12:33
Bruno Giussani: Jennifer, this is
a technology with huge consequences,
a technology with huge consequences,
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12:37
as you pointed out.
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你刚才说过了。
你要求暂停、延期或隔离的态度
12:38
Your attitude about asking for a pause
or a moratorium or a quarantine
or a moratorium or a quarantine
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5172
是非常负责任的。
12:43
is incredibly responsible.
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2020
当然有一些应用会有疗效，
12:46
There are, of course,
the therapeutic results of this,
the therapeutic results of this,
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但也有一些非治疗性的，
12:49
but then there are the un-therapeutic ones
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而它们似乎
12:51
and they seem to be the ones
gaining traction,
gaining traction,
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特别受媒体的关注。
12:53
particularly in the media.
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这是经济学人杂志最新的议题——
"定制人类"。
"定制人类"。
12:54
This is one of the latest issues
of The Economist -- "Editing humanity."
of The Economist -- "Editing humanity."
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关注点几乎都在基因学性能的提升，
而非治疗。
而非治疗。
12:59
It's all about genetic enhancement,
it's not about therapeutics.
it's not about therapeutics.
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今年三月你跟你在科学界的同事，
13:03
What kind of reactions
did you get back in March
did you get back in March
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对此技术提出要求
13:05
from your colleagues in the science world,
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2017
并建议——
13:07
when you asked or suggested
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" 我们必须立刻停止并思考 "后，
你们得到了什么样的回应呢?
你们得到了什么样的回应呢?
13:09
that we should actually pause this
for a moment and think about it?
for a moment and think about it?
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詹妮弗 道娜 (JD) ：我想，
我的同事们实际上很高兴
我的同事们实际上很高兴
13:13
Jennifer Doudna: My colleagues
were actually, I think, delighted
were actually, I think, delighted
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3001
有这个机会可以公开讨论这件事。
13:16
to have the opportunity
to discuss this openly.
to discuss this openly.
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向大众介绍这项技术
是个很有趣的经历，
是个很有趣的经历，
13:18
It's interesting that as I talk to people,
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和同事或者其他人说起也是这样，
13:20
my scientific colleagues
as well as others,
as well as others,
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关于这件事大家都有不同的见解。
13:23
there's a wide variety
of viewpoints about this.
of viewpoints about this.
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所以很明显，
这件事需要人们进行深入思考和讨论。
这件事需要人们进行深入思考和讨论。
13:25
So clearly it's a topic that needs
careful consideration and discussion.
careful consideration and discussion.
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BG：今年12月还有一次大型会议，
13:29
BG: There's a big meeting
happening in December
happening in December
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你跟你同事都有被邀请，
13:31
that you and your colleagues are calling,
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1976
与国家科学院及其他机构的
专家一起开会，
专家一起开会，
13:33
together with the National Academy
of Sciences and others,
of Sciences and others,
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你希望会议中能达成什么共识呢?
13:36
what do you hope will come
out of the meeting, practically?
out of the meeting, practically?
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JD：我希望我们可以与很多
不同的私人机构及投资人
不同的私人机构及投资人
13:39
JD: Well, I hope that we can air the views
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13:41
of many different individuals
and stakeholders
and stakeholders
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针对如何负责任地使用此项技术
13:45
who want to think about how to use
this technology responsibly.
this technology responsibly.
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做一次线上会议沟通。
也许不太可能会达成共识，
13:49
It may not be possible to come up with
a consensus point of view,
a consensus point of view,
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但我认为我们至少要了解
13:53
but I think we should at least understand
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1993
当我们继续前进时会面临哪些问题。
13:55
what all the issues are as we go forward.
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1972
BG：你的同事，比方说
13:57
BG: Now, colleagues of yours,
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1406
哈佛大学的George Church，
13:58
like George Church,
for example, at Harvard,
for example, at Harvard,
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2079
他们会说 "对啊，有关道德上的考量，
基本上只是安全性问题，
基本上只是安全性问题，
14:00
they say, "Yeah, ethical issues basically
are just a question of safety.
are just a question of safety.
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3436
我们会不断地在实验室里
做动物实验，
做动物实验，
14:04
We test and test and test again,
in animals and in labs,
in animals and in labs,
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2654
一旦我们感觉它够安全，
才会在人体中做测试啊!"
才会在人体中做测试啊!"
14:06
and then once we feel it's safe enough,
we move on to humans."
we move on to humans."
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所以这有点像其他一类想法，
14:10
So that's kind of the other
school of thought,
school of thought,
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" 我们应该利用此机会并大胆尝试。"
14:13
that we should actually use
this opportunity and really go for it.
this opportunity and really go for it.
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3148
这有没有可能在科学界产生分歧呢?
14:16
Is there a possible split happening
in the science community about this?
in the science community about this?
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3778
我的意思是，有些人忍住了，
14:20
I mean, are we going to see
some people holding back
some people holding back
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因为他们有道德方面的顾虑，
14:22
because they have ethical concerns,
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1794
有些人则没有，依然我行我素，
14:24
and some others just going forward
250
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1687
14:26
because some countries under-regulate
or don't regulate at all?
or don't regulate at all?
251
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3296
因为有些国家有管制，
而有些则完全没有？
而有些则完全没有？
JD：我想对很多新科技，
尤其类似这样的技术，
尤其类似这样的技术，
14:29
JD: Well, I think with any new technology,
especially something like this,
especially something like this,
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大家都会有不同的观点，
14:33
there are going to be
a variety of viewpoints,
a variety of viewpoints,
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2785
这完全可以理解。
14:36
and I think that's
perfectly understandable.
perfectly understandable.
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3341
我想到最后，
14:39
I think that in the end,
255
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1512
这项技术会被用在人类基因工程上，
14:41
this technology will be used
for human genome engineering,
for human genome engineering,
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4951
但我认为如果没有深思熟虑并讨论
14:46
but I think to do that without careful
consideration and discussion
consideration and discussion
257
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其中的风险和可能的并发症，
14:50
of the risks and potential complications
258
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2937
那是不负责任的表现。
14:53
would not be responsible.
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1539
BG：我想有很多技术和
其他领域的科学
其他领域的科学
14:54
BG: There are a lot of technologies
and other fields of science
and other fields of science
260
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跟你的很像，正在急速地发展着。
14:58
that are developing exponentially,
pretty much like yours.
pretty much like yours.
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2771
比如说人工智能、自主性机器人等等...
15:00
I'm thinking about artificial
intelligence, autonomous robots and so on.
intelligence, autonomous robots and so on.
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4033
似乎没有人 ——
15:05
No one seems --
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除了自主作战机器人——
在这些领域中，
在这些领域中，
15:06
aside from autonomous warfare robots --
264
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15:08
nobody seems to have launched
a similar discussion in those fields,
a similar discussion in those fields,
265
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似乎没有人发表相同的言论，
15:13
in calling for a moratorium.
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要来呼吁暂缓之类的。
你是否认为你的讨论也许可以
成为其他领域的参考蓝图？
成为其他领域的参考蓝图？
15:15
Do you think that your discussion may
serve as a blueprint for other fields?
serve as a blueprint for other fields?
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JD： 我认为，要让科学家
不做实验是不太可能的。
不做实验是不太可能的。
15:19
JD: Well, I think it's hard for scientists
to get out of the laboratory.
to get out of the laboratory.
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就我自己而言，
15:22
Speaking for myself,
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这样做有点不太舒服。
15:23
it's a little bit
uncomfortable to do that.
uncomfortable to do that.
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但我的确认为我们涉及到
这件事的源头，
这件事的源头，
15:26
But I do think that being involved
in the genesis of this
in the genesis of this
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使我跟同事们必须站出来
为这件事负责。
为这件事负责。
15:30
really puts me and my colleagues
in a position of responsibility.
in a position of responsibility.
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我要说我肯定希望其他的科学技术
15:34
And I would say that I certainly hope
that other technologies
that other technologies
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也能用同样的方式来思考，
15:37
will be considered in the same way,
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正如我们考量到某些事
也有可能会牵连到
也有可能会牵连到
15:40
just as we would want to consider
something that could have implications
something that could have implications
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除开生物学之外的其他领域。
15:43
in other fields besides biology.
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BG：詹妮弗，感谢你来TED演讲。
15:45
BG: Jennifer, thanks for coming to TED.
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JD：谢谢。
15:47
JD: Thank you.
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(鼓掌)
15:49
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jennifer Doudna - BiologistJennifer Doudna was part of inventing a potentially world-changing genetic technology: the gene editing technology CRISPR-Cas9.
Why you should listen
Together with her colleague Emmanuelle Charpentier of Umeå University in Sweden, Berkeley biologist Jennifer Doudna is at the center of one of today's most-discussed science discoveries: a technology called CRISPR-Cas9 that allows human genome editing by adding or removing genetic material at will. This enables fighting genetic diseases (cutting out HIV, altering cancer cells) as well as, potentially, opening the road to "engineered humans."
Because some applications of genetic manipulation can be inherited, Doudna and numerous colleagues have called for prudent use of the technology until the ethics and safety have been properly considered.
Doudna is the co-winner of the 2018 Kavli Prize in Nanoscience, along with Emmanuelle Charpentier and Virginijus Šikšnys.
Jennifer Doudna | Speaker | TED.com