ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Pavan Sukhdev - Environmental economist
A banker by training, Pavan Sukhdev runs the numbers on greening up -- showing that green economies are an effective engine for creating jobs and creating wealth.

Why you should listen

In 2008, Sukhdev took a sabbatical from Deutsche Bank, where he'd worked for fifteen years, to write up two massive and convincing reports on the green economy. For UNEP, his “Green Economy Report” synthesized years of research to show, with real numbers, that environmentally sound development is not a bar to growth but rather a new engine for growing wealth and creating employment in the face of persistent poverty. The groundbreaking TEEB (formally “The Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity”) report counts the global economic benefits of biodiversity. It encourages countries to develop and publish “Natural capital accounts” tracking the value of plants, animal, water and other “natural wealth” alongside traditional financial measures in the hope of changing how decisions are made. In his book, Corporation 2020, he envisions tomorrow’s corporations as agents of an inclusive, green economy. He is now the CEO of Gist Advisory, a sustainability consulting firm.

More profile about the speaker
Pavan Sukhdev | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2011

Pavan Sukhdev: Put a value on nature!

帕蕃 索克特夫:為大自然定個價值!

Filmed:
753,487 views

我們每日不加思索、毋須一分一毫咁消耗地球資源。但如果我哋真係要為真實價值結帳,咁我哋用嘅時候又會唔會小心同更警惕?帕蕃 索克特夫作為自然界嘅銀行家 -- 為地球嘅寶庫評估價值。佢嘅圖表將使你大開眼界,重新反思空氣、水同樹林嘅成本.....
- Environmental economist
A banker by training, Pavan Sukhdev runs the numbers on greening up -- showing that green economies are an effective engine for creating jobs and creating wealth. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:15
I'm here to talk to you
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我係呢度同大家討論
00:17
about the economic經濟 invisibility隱形 of nature自然.
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大自然嘅經濟無形性
00:19
The bad news新聞
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有個壞消息
00:21
is that mother母親 nature's自然嘅 back office辦公室 isn't working工作 yet尚未,
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係大自然嘅後勤部門其實運作唔到
00:23
so those invoices發票 don't get issued發出.
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所以仲未出發票
00:25
But we need to do something about this problem個問題.
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但我哋需要處理呢個問題
00:28
I began初時 my life as a markets市場 professional專業
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我從事市場專業
00:31
and continued繼續 to take an interest興趣,
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我一向熱愛工作
00:34
but most of my recent最近 effort努力
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不過最近我大部分精力
00:36
has been looking at the value價值
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都投放到研究
00:38
of what comes to human人類 beings生命 from nature自然,
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人類開發自然資源嘅價值
00:40
and which doesn't get priced價格 by the markets市場.
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但佢地仍然未有價錢牌
00:43
A project項目 called TEEBTEEB was started初時 in 2007,
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一個名為TEEB的計劃係2007年開始
00:46
and it was launched推出 by a group of environment環境 ministers部長
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係由一群環保官員成立
00:49
of the G8+5.
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成員係來自G8+5
00:51
And their佢哋 basic基本 inspiration靈感
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佢哋嘅基本理念
00:53
was a stern嚴厲 review檢討 of Lord Stern嚴厲.
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是認真審視斯特恩勳爵嘅見解
00:55
They asked問吓 themselves自己 a question個問題:
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佢哋問咗自己一個問題:
00:57
If economics經濟學 could make such a convincing說服 case情況下
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如果經濟能夠有說服力去解釋
00:59
for early早期 action行動 on climate氣候 change,
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及早對抗氣候變化嘅重要性
01:01
well why can't the same相同 be done for conservation保護?
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咁點解保育唔可以咁做?
01:03
Why can't an equivalent等傚 case情況下 be made作出
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點解同一道理唔可以
01:05
for nature自然?
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套用到大自然呢?
01:07
And the answer回答 is: Yeah, it can.
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而答案係:無錯,可以
01:09
But it's not that straightforward簡單.
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但並唔係咁直接
01:11
Biodiversity生物多樣性, the living生活 fabric織物 of this planet星球, is not a gas氣體.
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生物多樣性, 地球上活嘅結構而非氣體
01:14
It exists存在 in many好多 layers,
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佢存在係好多個層面
01:16
ecosystems生態, species物種 and genes基因 across many好多 scales尺度 --
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遍佈眾多個生態系統、物種同基因 --
01:19
international國際, national國家, local當地, community社區 --
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不論國際、國內、本地、社區 --
01:22
and doing for nature自然
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生物多樣性都回饋大自然
01:24
what Lord Stern嚴厲 and his team團隊 did for nature自然 is not that easy容易.
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斯特恩勳爵同佢嘅團隊為自然界付出嘅努力殊不簡單
01:27
And yet尚未, we began初時.
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我哋開始咗第一步
01:29
We began初時 the project項目 with an interim臨時 report報告,
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個計劃由一份中期報告開始
01:31
which quickly迅速 pulled together一起
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裡面綜合咗係短時間內
01:33
a lot of information信息 that had been collected收集 on the subject主題
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大量由研究員搜集返嚟關於
01:36
by many好多, many好多 researchers研究者.
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呢個課題嘅資料
01:38
And amongst之間 our compiled編譯 results結果
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而係我哋編輯嘅結果之中
01:40
was the startling驚人 revelation啟示
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有一個驚人嘅發現
01:42
that, in fact事實, we were losing失去 natural自然 capital資本 --
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就是其實我們正在損失自然資源 --
01:45
the benefits著數 that flow from nature自然 to us.
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即係從大自然流比我哋嘅好處
01:47
We were losing失去 it at an extraordinary非凡 rate --
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原來我哋以驚人嘅速度損耗緊 --
01:49
in fact事實, of the order of two to four trillion万億 dollars-worth美金-價值
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價值高達200至400萬兆美元
01:52
of natural自然 capital資本.
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嘅自然資源
01:55
This came out in 2008,
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報告於2008年發表
01:57
which was, of course課程, around the time that the banking銀行 crisis危機 had shown顯示
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亦即係金融海嘯嘅時候
01:59
that we had lost失去 financial金融 capital資本
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揭示投資市場
02:01
of the order of two and a half一半 trillion万億 dollars美元.
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已虧損達2至3億美元
02:03
So this was comparable比較 in size大小 to that kind一種 of loss損失.
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自然資源損耗嘅規模亦達至同一規模
02:06
We then have gone on since因為
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於是我哋開始
02:08
to present目前 for [the] international國際 community社區,
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為國際社會
02:11
for governments政府,
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為各個政府
02:13
for local當地 governments政府 and for business業務
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為本地政府同商界
02:15
and for people, for you and me,
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為全球人類,為你同我
02:17
a whole整個 slew of reports報告, which were presented提出 at the U.N. last year,
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去年在聯合國發佈咗呢堆報告
02:20
which address地址 the economic經濟 invisibility隱形 of nature自然
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針對大自然經濟嘅無形性
02:23
and describe描述 what can be done to solve解決 it.
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去表達解決方法
02:25
What is this about?
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究竟係咩呢?
02:27
A picture圖片 that you're familiar熟悉 with --
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一幅大家好熟悉的圖像 --
02:29
the Amazon亞馬遜 rainforests熱帶雨林.
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亞馬遜雨林
02:31
It's a massive大規模 store商店 of carbon, it's an amazing驚人 store商店 of biodiversity生物多樣性,
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佢係一個巨大嘅碳庫存,一個擁有生物多樣性嘅庫存
02:34
but what people don't really know
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但好多人都唔知
02:36
is this also is a rain factory.
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呢個亦係一個雨水工廠
02:38
Because the northeastern東北 trade貿易 winds,
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因為當東北信風
02:40
as they go over the Amazonas亞馬遜,
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橫過亞馬遜納嘅時候
02:42
effectively有效 gather收集 the water vapor蒸汽.
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好有效咁收集水蒸氣
02:44
Something like 20 billion tons per day of water vapor蒸汽
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每日大約20萬億噸水蒸氣
02:47
is sucked up by the northeastern東北 trade貿易 winds,
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被東北信風吸走
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and eventually最終 precipitates沉澱 in the form形式 of rain
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慢慢冷卻成降雨
02:53
across the La洛杉磯 Plata马德普拉塔 Basin盆地.
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落到拉普拉塔河盆
02:55
This rainfall降雨 cycle周期, this rainfall降雨 factory,
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呢個降雨循環,呢個雨水工廠
02:58
effectively有效 feeds飼料 an agricultural農業 economy經濟
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有效咁孕育著一個農業經濟
03:00
of the order of 240 billion dollars-worth美金-價值
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價值達240萬億美元
03:02
in Latin拉丁 America美國.
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位於拉丁美洲
03:04
But the question個問題 arises出現: Okay, so how much
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有一個問題
03:07
do Uruguay烏拉圭, Paraguay巴拉圭, Argentina阿根廷
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究景烏拉圭、巴拉圭、阿根廷
03:09
and indeed講真 the state狀態 of Mato马托格罗索 Grosso格罗索 in Brazil巴西
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仲有巴西馬托格羅索州
03:12
pay支付 for that vital重要 input輸入 to that economy經濟
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需要為呢個咁重要經濟輸入
03:15
to the state狀態 of Amazonas亞馬遜, which produces生產 that rainfall降雨?
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為生產雨水嘅亞馬遜納州付出幾多呢?
03:18
And the answer回答 is zilch,
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答案是無
03:20
exactly完全 zero.
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係零
03:22
That's the economic經濟 invisibility隱形 of nature自然.
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呢個就係大自然經濟嘅無形性
03:24
That can't keep going on,
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呢個情況唔可以持續落去
03:26
because economic經濟 incentives激勵 and disincentives抑制 are very powerful強大.
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因為經濟誘因同抑制因素好強大
03:29
Economics經濟學 has become成為 the currency貨幣 of policy政策.
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經濟已經成為政策嘅籌碼
03:31
And unless除左 we address地址
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除非我們正視
03:33
this invisibility隱形,
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呢嗰無形性
03:35
we are going to get the results結果 that we are seeing看到,
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否則我哋會面對一如所料嘅後果
03:37
which is a gradual逐漸 degradation降解 and loss損失
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目送珍貴嘅天然財產
03:40
of this valuable寶貴 natural自然 asset資產.
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逐漸退化同喪失
03:42
It's not just about the Amazonas亞馬遜, or indeed講真 about rainforests熱帶雨林.
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呢個唔單只關係到亞馬遜納同雨林
03:45
No matter個問題 what level水平 you look at,
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無論邊個層面
03:47
whether係唔係 it's at the ecosystem生態 level水平 or at the species物種 level水平 or at the genetic遺傳 level水平,
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無論係生態系統定係物種或者基因層面
03:50
we see the same相同 problem個問題 again and again.
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呢個問題都係無處不在
03:53
So rainfall降雨 cycle周期 and water regulation調節 by rainforests熱帶雨林
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雨林嘅降雨循環同水調節
03:56
at an ecosystem生態 level水平.
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係生態系統層面也好
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At the species物種 level水平,
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係物種層面也好
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it's been estimated估計 that insect-based昆蟲為基礎 pollination授粉,
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估計昆蟲傳播花粉
04:02
bees蜜蜂 pollinating授粉 fruit水果 and so on,
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蜜蜂為果實授粉等等
04:05
is something like 190 billion dollars-worth美金-價值.
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約值190萬億美元
04:08
That's something like eight percent百分比
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呢個差不多相當於
04:10
of the total agricultural農業 output輸出 globally全球.
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全球總農產量百分之8
04:14
It completely完全 passes透過 below下面 the radar雷達 screen屏幕.
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但我哋完全忽略咗這點
04:16
But when did a bee蜜蜂 actually講真 ever give you an invoice發票?
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但蜜蜂幾時發張發票比我哋?
04:19
Or for that matter個問題, if you look at the genetic遺傳 level水平,
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或者,從基因層面睇嘅話
04:22
60 percent百分比 of medicines藥物 were prospected展望,
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六成藥物係開發時
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were found發現 first as molecules分子 in a rainforest雨林 or a reef.
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只係雨林或暗礁中嘅化學分子
04:28
Once一旦 again, most of that doesn't get paid支付.
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同樣唔洗一分一毫
04:30
And that brings帶嚟 me to another另一個 aspect方面 of this,
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呢個帶我到問題嘅另一面
04:32
which is, to whom边个 should this get paid支付?
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就係應該邊個收錢?
04:35
That genetic遺傳 material材料
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呢的基因物質
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probably可能 belonged屬於, if it could belong屬於 to anyone任何人,
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如果屬於任何人嘅話,大概屬於
04:39
to a local當地 community社區 of poor可憐 people
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貧窮社區嘅人
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who parted分手 with the knowledge知識 that helped幫手 the researchers研究者 to find the molecule分子,
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佢哋缺乏比研究員找到化學分子嘅知識
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which then became成為 the medicine醫學.
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而呢的最終成為藥物
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They were the ones that didn't get paid支付.
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佢地一無所得
04:48
And if you look at the species物種 level水平,
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如果你睇吓物種層次
04:51
you saw about fish.
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你睇見魚類
04:53
Today今日, the depletion枯竭 of ocean海洋 fisheries漁業 is so significant重要
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今日, 海洋漁產嘅損耗非常顯著
04:56
that effectively有效 it is effecting影響 the ability能力 of the poor可憐,
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迅速蠶食
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the artisanal手工 fisher费沙 folk民間
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從古到今
05:02
and those who fish for their佢哋 own自己 livelihoods生計,
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都以捕魚維生
05:04
to feed飼料 their佢哋 families家庭.
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和養妻活兒的人嘅生活
05:06
Something like a billion people depend依賴 on fish,
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全球大約10億人依賴魚類
05:08
the quantity數量 of fish in the oceans海洋.
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依賴海洋中的魚量
05:10
A billion people depend依賴 on fish
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10億人依賴魚類
05:13
for their佢哋 main主要 source for animal動物 protein蛋白.
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作為動物蛋白質的主要來源
05:15
And at this rate at which we are losing失去 fish,
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按目前魚類損耗速度
05:17
it is a human人類 problem個問題 of enormous巨大 dimensions尺寸,
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係一個龐大的人禍
05:19
a health健康 problem個問題
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一個前所未有嘅
05:21
of a kind一種 we haven't seen看到 before.
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健康問題
05:24
And finally最後, at the ecosystem生態 level水平,
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最後,喺生態系統層面
05:26
whether係唔係 it's flood洪水 prevention預防 or drought乾旱 control控制 provided提供 by the forests森林,
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無論係樹林防洪或防旱功能
05:29
or whether係唔係 it is the ability能力 of poor可憐 farmers農民
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甚至係貧困嘅農民
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to go out and gather收集 leaf litter垃圾
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外出收集枯枝落葉
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for their佢哋 cattle and goats山羊,
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供家畜家畜
05:35
or whether係唔係 it's the ability能力 of their佢哋 wives妻子
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或者佢哋嘅妻子
05:37
to go and collect收集 fuel燃料 wood木材 from the forest森林,
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去樹林執柴枝
05:39
it is actually講真 the poor可憐
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即係貧窮嘅一群人
05:41
who depend依賴 most on these ecosystem生態 services服務.
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最依賴呢類生態系統幫助
05:43
We did estimates估計 in our study研究
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我哋嘅研究估計
05:45
that for countries國家 like Brazil巴西, India印度 and Indonesia印尼,
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巴西、印度、印尼等國家
05:48
even though雖然 ecosystem生態 services服務 --
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縱使生態系統服務 --
05:50
these benefits著數 that flow from nature自然 to humanity人類 for free自由 --
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呢類從大自然免費流到人類嘅益處 --
05:53
they're not very big in percentage百分比 terms條款 of GDPGdp --
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或者佔國內生產總值百分比唔多 --
05:55
two, four, eight, 10, 15 percent百分比 --
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百分之 2, 4, 8, 10 或者15不等 --
05:57
but in these countries國家, if we measure措施 how much they're worth值得 to the poor可憐,
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但係呢的國家,如果計算佢地對貧窮人口嘅價值
06:00
the answers答案 are more like
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得出嘅數字係
06:02
45 percent百分比, 75 percent百分比, 90 percent百分比.
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百分之45, 75 甚至90
06:05
That's the difference差異.
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差異就係呢度
06:07
Because these are important重要 benefits著數 for the poor可憐.
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因為佢哋對貧窮嘅人嚟講好重要
06:10
And you can't really have a proper適當 model模型 for development發展
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而你唔可以指望有一個正統嘅發展模式
06:13
if at the same相同 time you're destroying破壞 or allowing允許
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如果你同時破壞或任由
06:16
the degradation降解 of the very asset資產, the most important重要 asset資產,
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呢嗰珍貴同賴以發展
06:19
which is your development發展 asset資產,
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嘅資源退化
06:21
that is ecological生態 infrastructure基礎設施.
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即係呢個生態系統
06:23
How bad can things get?
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情況將會有幾壞?
06:25
Well here a picture圖片 of something called the mean species物種 abundance豐富.
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呢度有張叫做平均物種豐度嘅圖片
06:28
It's basically基本上 a measure措施
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基本上量度
06:30
of how many好多 tigers老虎, toads蟾蜍, ticks or whatever無論 on average平均
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老虎、蟾蜍、壁蝨諸如此類嘅平均數量
06:32
of biomass生物 of various各種 species物種 are around.
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同各物種嘅生物重量
06:35
The green綠色 represents代表 the percentage百分比.
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綠色部分代表百分比
06:37
If you start初時 green綠色, it's like 80 to 100 percent百分比.
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先看綠色嘅話,呢度大概有百分之80至100
06:40
If it's yellow黃色, it's 40 to 60 percent百分比.
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再睇黃色,便有百分之40至60
06:42
And these are percentages百分比 versus the original源語言 state狀態, so to speak,
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呢嗰係對比原有數量嘅百分比
06:44
the pre-industrial工業前 era時代, 1750.
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即是工業化前,1750年
06:47
Now I'm going to show顯示 you
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而家我會比大家睇
06:49
how business業務 as usual通常 will affect影響 this.
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目前情況不變會造成咩後果
06:51
And just watch the change in colors顏色
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只需要留意顏色轉變
06:53
in India印度, China中國, Europe歐洲,
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係印度、中國、歐洲、
06:55
sub-Saharan撒哈拉以南 Africa非洲
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非洲撒哈拉以南
06:57
as we move移動 on and consume消費 global全球 biomass生物
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我哋隨著不可持續嘅速度
07:00
at a rate which is actually講真 not going to be able to sustain維持 us.
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消耗全球生物量
07:04
See that again.
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再睇
07:06
The only places地方 that remain保持 green綠色 -- and that's not good news新聞 --
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一個壞消息, 僅存綠色嘅地方
07:08
is, in fact事實, places地方 like the Gobi戈壁 Desert沙漠,
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只係戈壁沙漠區域
07:11
like the tundra苔原 and like the Sahara撒哈拉.
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譬如苔原,譬如撒哈拉
07:13
But that doesn't help because there were very few幾個 species物種
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不過無用, 因為物種好少
07:15
and volume體積 of biomass生物 there in the first place地方.
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而佢哋生物量體積本身已經唔多
07:17
This is the challenge挑戰.
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這個就係挑戰所在
07:19
The reason原因 this is happening發生
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原因就係
07:22
boils沸騰 down, in my mind介意, to one basic基本 problem個問題,
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歸根究底,我認為係一個基本問題
07:25
which is our inability冇辦法 to perceive感知 the difference差異
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我地忽視咗
07:27
between之間 public公眾 benefits著數
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公益
07:29
and private私人 profits利潤.
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同私利之間嘅差別
07:31
We tend往往 to constantly係咁 ignore忽略 public公眾 wealth財富
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我哋一向漠視公共財富
07:34
simply淨係 because it is in the common常見 wealth財富,
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純粹因為大家嘅福祉
07:36
it's common常見 goods貨物.
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大家係好處
07:38
And here's呢度有 an example例子 from Thailand泰國
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有一個泰國嘅例子
07:40
where we found發現 that, because the value價值 of a mangrove紅樹林 is not that much --
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我哋發現由於紅樹林價值唔高 --
07:44
it's about $600 over the life of nine years that this has been measured測量 --
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以佢哋九年生命大概值600美元 --
07:48
compared比較 to its value價值 as a shrimp farm農場,
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比較作為養蝦場嘅價值
07:50
which is more like $9,600,
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約莫係9600美元
07:52
there has been a gradual逐漸 trend趨勢 to deplete消耗 the mangroves紅樹林
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紅樹林已經就嚟絕跡
07:55
and convert轉換 them to shrimp farms農場.
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並被轉換為養蝦場
07:57
But of course課程, if you look at exactly完全 what those profits利潤 are,
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如果仔細探究牟得嘅利益係咩
08:01
almost爭 D 8,000 of those dollars美元
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當中接近8000美元
08:03
are, in fact事實, subsidies幫補.
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其實都是補貼
08:05
So you compare比較 the two sides雙方 of the coin銀仔
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所以權衡利弊嘅時候
08:08
and you find that it's more like 1,200 to 600.
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就會發現實際利潤分別是1200同600美元
08:10
That's not that hard努力.
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唔太難明白
08:12
But on the other hand, if you start初時 measuring測量,
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另外如果計算
08:14
how much would it actually講真 cost成本
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將養蝦場嘅土地
08:16
to restore恢復 the land土地 of the shrimp farm農場
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翻新恢復生產用途
08:18
back to productive生產 use?
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代價將會係幾多?
08:20
Once一旦 salt deposition沉積 and chemical化學 deposition沉積
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一旦鹽同化學嘅含量
08:22
has had its effects影響,
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起咗作用
08:24
that answer回答 is more like $12,000 of cost成本.
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成本大概係12000美元
08:27
And if you see the benefits著數 of the mangrove紅樹林
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如果諗下保留紅樹林嘅好處
08:29
in terms條款 of the storm風暴 protection保護 and cyclone氣旋 protection保護 that you get
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包括抵禦風暴, 防範颱風
08:32
and in terms條款 of the fisheries漁業, the fish nurseries托兒所,
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為漁產,為窮民提供漁獲
08:34
that provide提供 fish for the poor可憐,
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嘅魚類繁殖場
08:36
that answer回答 is more like $11,000.
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答案係11,000美元
08:38
So now look at the different不同 lens鏡頭.
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試吓從另一角度去睇
08:40
If you look at the lens鏡頭 of public公眾 wealth財富
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如果從公共財富出發
08:42
as against the lens鏡頭 of private私人 profits利潤,
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而非私人利益
08:44
you get a completely完全 different不同 answer回答,
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我哋會得到一個好唔同嘅答案
08:46
which is clearly清楚 conservation保護 makes使 more sense,
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亦即係保育顯然更合理
08:49
and not destruction破壞.
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而唔係破壞
08:51
So is this just a story故事 from South Thailand泰國?
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呢嗰係咪只係泰國南部嘅情況?
08:54
Sorry, this is a global全球 story故事.
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唔係, 呢個係全世界嘅狀況
08:56
And here's呢度有 what the same相同 calculation計算 looks睇黎 like,
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以同一方式計算
08:58
which was done recently最近 -- well I say recently最近, over the last 10 years --
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即最近十年嚟講
09:01
by a group called TRUCOSTTRUCOST.
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由一個名為TRUCOST嘅組織進行
09:03
And they calculated計算 for the top返回頁首 3,000 corporations公司,
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佢哋為最頂尖3,000家大公司計算
09:05
what are the externalities外部?
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有咩外在因素?
09:07
In other words的話, what are the costs成本 of doing business業務 as usual通常?
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換句話說,如常營商嘅成本係幾多?
09:09
This is not illegal非法 stuff啲嘢, this is basically基本上 business業務 as usual通常,
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唔係指非法勾當,只是一般營商,
09:12
which causes原因 climate-changing氣候變化 emissions排放, which have an economic經濟 cost成本.
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會導致改變氣候嘅排放,附帶著經濟成本
09:15
It causes原因 pollutants污染物 being issued發出, which have an economic經濟 cost成本,
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持續放出污染物,附帶著經濟成本
09:18
health健康 cost成本 and so on.
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健康成本等等
09:20
Use of freshwater淡水.
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亦包括淡水利用
09:22
If you drill water to make coke焦炭 near附近 a village farm農場,
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如果你係鄉村耕地旁邊鑽鑿水源去煉焦炭
09:24
that's not illegal非法, but yes, it costs成本 the community社區.
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雖無違法,但的確賠上社區嘅生活
09:26
Can we stop this, and how?
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我哋可以阻止嗎? 點樣阻止?
09:28
I think the first pointD to make is that we need to recognize認識 natural自然 capital資本.
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我認為第一點係需要認識自然資源
09:31
Basically基本上 the stuff啲嘢 of life is natural自然 capital資本,
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簡單講生物就是自然資源
09:34
and we need to recognize認識 and build建立 that into our systems系統.
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我哋需要認識同生活模式入面
09:37
When we measure措施 GDPGdp
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當量度國民生產總值
09:39
as a measure措施 of economic經濟 performance性能 at the national國家 level水平,
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作為國家層面經濟表現嘅標準
09:41
we don't include包括 our biggest最大 asset資產 at the country國家 level水平.
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我哋並無包括自然界嘅資源
09:44
When we measure措施 corporate企業 performances性能,
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當我哋量度業績
09:46
we don't include包括 our impacts影響 on nature自然
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我哋亦無包括對大自然嘅影響
09:48
and what our business業務 costs成本 society社會.
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以及社會為經商承擔嘅代價
09:50
That has to stop.
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一定要停止
09:52
In fact事實, this was what really inspired啟發 my interest興趣 in this phase.
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呢嗰亦係我目前最有興趣嘅野
09:55
I began初時 a project項目 way back called the Green綠色 Accounting會計 Project項目.
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之前我搞咗一個綠色帳單計劃
09:57
That was in the early早期 2000s
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大約係2000年代初
09:59
when India印度 was going gung-ho起勁 about GDPGdp growth增長
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當時印度嘅國內生產總值增長強勁
10:02
as the means意味着 forward向前 --
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被視為前進嘅路向 --
10:04
looking at China中國 with its stellar恆星 growths生長 of eight, nine, 10 percent百分比
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眼看著中國有百分之8至10 的增長
10:06
and wondering, why can we do the same相同?
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佢哋問, 點解我哋做唔到?
10:08
And a few幾個 friends朋友 of mine and I
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我同幾個朋友
10:10
decided決定 this doesn't make sense.
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都覺得好唔合理
10:12
This is going to create創建 more cost成本 to society社會 and more losses損失.
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呢個將會為社會帶嚟更多負擔
10:15
So we decided決定 to do a massive大規模 set設置 of calculations計算
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於是我哋決定計算
10:17
and started初時 producing生產 green綠色 accounts帳戶 for India印度 and its states國家.
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又開始為印度各地做綠色帳單
10:20
That's how my interests利益 began初時
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我嘅志趣就係咁樣開始
10:22
and went to the TEEBTEEB project項目.
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後來演變成TEEB計劃
10:24
Calculating計算 this at the national國家 level水平 is one thing, and it has begun初時.
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在國家層面計算呢種綠色帳單
10:27
And the World世界 Bank銀行 has acknowledged承認 this
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而世界銀行亦確認咗呢個計畫
10:29
and they've佢地已經 started初時 a project項目 called WAVES --
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開展名為WAVES -- 全球生態系統
10:31
Wealth財富 Accounting會計 and Valuation評估 of Ecosystem生態 Services服務.
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和生態系統服務評價以及財富核算伙伴計劃
10:33
But calculating計算 this at the next level水平,
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計算嘅層面, 轉去
10:35
that means意味着 at the business業務 sector部門 level水平, is important重要.
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商界層面,呢點好重要
10:37
And actually講真 we've我哋都 done this with the TEEBTEEB project項目.
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事實上我哋亦都係TEEB計劃做過
10:39
We've我哋都 done this for a very difficult困難 case情況下,
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我哋做咗一個好棘手嘅個案
10:42
which was for deforestation森林砍伐 in China中國.
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中國的伐林問題
10:44
This is important重要, because in China中國 in 1997,
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非常重要, 因為中國係1997年
10:47
the Yellow黃色 River actually講真 went dry for nine months
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黃河就足足乾涸咗九個月
10:50
causing造成 severe嚴重 loss損失 of agriculture農業 output輸出
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導致農產出劇烈損失
10:52
and pain痛苦 and loss損失 to society社會.
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仲有對社會帶嚟損失和禍害
10:54
Just a year later之後 the Yangtze長江 flooded淹沒,
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一年後長江泛濫
10:56
causing造成 something like 5,500 deaths死亡.
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造成差不多5,500人死亡
10:59
So clearly清楚 there was a problem個問題 with deforestation森林砍伐.
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伐林就係問題根源
11:01
It was associated相關 largely主要 with the construction建設 industry行業.
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好大程度上聯繫到建築業
11:04
And the Chinese中文 government政府 responded回應 sensibly理智
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而中國政府明智作出回應
11:06
and placed放置 a ban禁止 on felling感覺.
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亦禁止了砍伐林木
11:08
A retrospective回顧 on 40 years
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回顧40年
11:10
shows顯示 that if we had accounted for these costs成本 --
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顯示如果當初我地有負起呢個成本 --
11:14
the cost成本 of loss損失 of topsoil表層土壤,
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包括表土流失
11:16
the cost成本 of loss損失 of waterways水道,
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水道喪失
11:18
the lost失去 productivity生產力, the loss損失 to local當地 communities社區
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生產力嘅損失,因為伐木造成
11:21
as a result結果 of all these factors因素,
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對本地社區嘅破壞
11:23
desertification荒漠化 and so on --
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荒漠化等等 --
11:25
those costs成本 are almost爭 D twice兩次 as much
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呢的成本幾乎係
11:27
as the market市場 price價格 of timber木材.
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木材市價嘅兩倍
11:29
So in fact事實, the price價格 of timber木材 in the Beijing北京 marketplace市場
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因此事實上,北京市場上嘅木材價格
11:32
ought應該 to have been three-times三仗 what it was
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應該係現時嘅三倍
11:34
had it reflected反映 the true真係 pain痛苦 and the costs成本
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如果有反映
11:37
to the society社會 within China中國.
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中國社會付出嘅代價
11:39
Of course課程, after the event事件 one can be wise明智.
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當然,經一事長一智
11:42
The way to do this is to do it on a company公司 basis基礎,
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處理辦法就是係以公司為基礎
11:44
to take leadership領導 forward向前,
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帶頭做起
11:46
and to do it for as many好多 important重要 sectors部門 which have a cost成本,
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為愈多要付成本嘅重要界別計算得愈好
11:49
and to disclose披露 these answers答案.
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同埋披露呢的數字
11:51
Someone有人 once一旦 asked問吓 me, "Who is better or worse更糟,
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有人曾經問我
11:53
is it Unilever聯合利華 or is it P&G
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若考慮對印尼雨林嘅影響
11:55
when it comes to their佢哋 impact影響 on rainforests熱帶雨林 in Indonesia印尼?"
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聯合利華 還是 P&G 比較好?
11:58
And I couldn't唔可以 answer回答 because neither of these companies公司,
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我唔識答,因為呢兩家公司
12:00
good though雖然 they are and professional專業 though雖然 they are,
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雖然好專業
12:02
do not calculate計算 or disclose披露 their佢哋 externalities外部.
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但都無計算或披露過外在因素
12:05
But if we look at companies公司 like PUMA美洲獅 --
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如果我哋睇吓彪馬等公司 --
12:07
JochenJochen Zeitz蔡茨, their佢哋 CEOCeo and chairman主席,
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約亨塞茲,佢哋嘅行政總裁同董事長,
12:09
once一旦 challenged挑戰 me at a function功能,
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曾經係一個活動
12:11
saying that he's going to implement實現 my project項目 before I finish完成 it.
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同我講佢會係我完成之前就計好咗
12:14
Well I think we kind一種 of did it at the same相同 time, but he's done it.
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學無前後, 達者為先
12:17
He's basically基本上 worked工作 the cost成本 to PUMA美洲獅.
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基本上為彪馬計算成本
12:19
PUMA美洲獅 has 2.7 billion dollars美元 of turnover營業額,
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彪馬嘅營業額達27億美元
12:21
300 million dollars美元 of profits利潤,
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有3億利潤
12:23
200 million dollars美元 after tax,
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交稅後有兩億
12:25
94 million dollars美元 of externalities外部, cost成本 to business業務.
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當中9400百萬外在因素,營商成本
12:28
Now that's not a happy快樂 situation情況 for them,
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情况雖然不利
12:30
but they have the confidence信心 and the courage勇氣
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但佢哋有信心同勇氣
12:32
to come forward向前 and say, "Here's呢度有 what we are measuring測量.
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佢走埋嚟同我哋講
12:35
We are measuring測量 it because we know
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"我哋進行計算, 因為我哋深知"
12:37
that you cannot唔可以 manage管理 what you do not measure措施."
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"唔去計永遠都管理唔到"
12:39
That's an example例子, I think, for us to look at
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呢個例子, 可以作為示範
12:41
and for us to draw comfort自在 from.
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亦令人感到安慰
12:43
If more companies公司 did this,
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如果更多公司都做
12:45
and if more sectors部門 engaged經營 this as sectors部門,
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如果更多界別參予
12:47
you could have analysts分析師, business業務 analysts分析師,
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可以比分析員
12:49
and you could have people like us and consumers消費者 and NGOsNgo
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或者一般消費者或非牟利組織去
12:52
actually講真 look and compare比較 the social社會 performance性能 of companies公司.
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去審視同比較企業嘅社會表現
12:55
Today今日 we can't yet尚未 do that, but I think the path路徑 is laid奠定 out.
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雖然仍未成事,但已有路可循
12:58
This can be done.
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係有可能做到
13:00
And I'm delighted開心 that the Institute研究所 of Chartered特許 Accountants會計師 in the U.K.
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而我好慶幸英國特許會計師協會
13:02
has already set設置 up a coalition聯盟 to do this,
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已經成立一個國際聯盟
13:04
an international國際 coalition聯盟.
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進行計算工作
13:06
The other favorite中意, if you like, solution解決方案 for me
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另一個我喜歡嘅方法
13:09
is the creation創造 of green綠色 carbon markets市場.
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就係創造綠色碳市場
13:11
And by the way, these are my favorites收藏夾 --
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講開又講,我真係好喜歡
13:13
externalities外部 calculation計算 and green綠色 carbon markets市場.
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計算外呢類因素同埋綠色碳市場
13:15
TEEBTEEB has more than a dozen separate單獨 groups of solutions解決方案
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TEEB有超過12組不同方案
13:19
including包括 protected保護 area一區 evaluation評價
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包括評估保護區
13:21
and payments付款 for ecosystem生態 services服務
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為生態服務結帳
13:23
and eco-certification生態認證 and you name名字 it, but these are the favorites收藏夾.
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生態驗證等形形式式
13:26
What's green綠色 carbon?
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咩係綠色碳?
13:28
Today今日 what we have is basically基本上 a brown棕色 carbon marketplace市場.
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而家我哋有嘅係褪色嘅碳市場
13:30
It's about energy能源 emissions排放.
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同能源排放有關
13:32
The European歐洲 Union聯盟 ETSEts is the main主要 marketplace市場.
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歐盟排放權交易計劃就係主要市場
13:34
It's not doing too well. We've我哋都 over-issued過度發佈.
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由於發行過度, 表現唔理想
13:36
A bit like inflation通脹: you over-issue過度發行 currency貨幣,
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就好似通脹:你大量發鈔,
13:38
you get what you see, declining下降 prices價格.
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然後一如所料,價格下降。
13:41
But that's all about energy能源 and industry行業.
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這全都與能源和工業有關。
13:44
But what we're missing失蹤 is also some other emissions排放
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我們忽略了其他排放
13:46
like black carbon, that is soot煙塵.
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例如黑色碳,即是煤煙
13:48
What we're also missing失蹤 is blue藍色 carbon,
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我哋亦忽略咗藍色碳
13:50
which, by the way, is the largest最大 store商店 of carbon --
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亦即是最大嘅碳庫存 --
13:52
more than 55 percent百分比.
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超過百分之55
13:54
Thankfully謝天謝地, the flux通量, in other words的話, the flow of emissions排放
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好欣慰, 所講嘅藍色碳係
13:56
from the ocean海洋 to the atmosphere氣氛 and vice versa反之亦然,
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來回海洋和大氣層之間排放同流出
13:58
is more or less balanced平衡.
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差不多收支平衡
14:00
In fact事實, what's being absorbed吸收
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事實上,被吸收嘅
14:02
is something like 25 percent百分比 of our emissions排放,
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大約是我哋排放嘅四分一
14:05
which then leads導致 to acidification酸化
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佢哋會導致海洋酸化
14:07
or lower降低 alkalinity鹼度 in oceans海洋.
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或鹼度下降
14:09
More of that in a minute分鐘.
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我地稍後再講
14:11
And finally最後, there's deforestation森林砍伐,
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最後,係砍伐樹林
14:13
and there's emission排放 of methane甲烷
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仲有係來自農業
14:15
from agriculture農業.
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甲烷排放
14:17
Green綠色 carbon,
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綠色碳
14:19
which is the deforestation森林砍伐 and agricultural農業 emissions排放,
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即係來自伐林同農業排放
14:21
and blue藍色 carbon
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以及藍色碳
14:23
together一起 comprise包括 25 percent百分比 of our emissions排放.
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合共佔去我地排放嘅四分一
14:25
We have the means意味着 already in our hands,
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其實已經有方法
14:27
through透過 a structure結構, through透過 a mechanism機制, called REDDRedd Plus --
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透過一個結構同機制,名為REDD Plus--
14:29
a scheme方案 for the reduced減少 emissions排放
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一個為減少伐林同林地退化
14:31
from deforestation森林砍伐 and forest森林 degradation降解.
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造成嘅碳排放而設嘅計劃
14:34
And already Norway挪威 has contributed貢獻 a billion dollars美元 each每個
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挪威已分別投放10億元
14:37
towards Indonesia印尼 and Brazil巴西
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去印尼同巴西
14:39
to implement實現 this Red Plus scheme方案.
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推行呢個Red Plus計劃
14:41
So we actually講真 have some movement運動 forward向前.
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進展係有
14:43
But the thing is to do a lot more of that.
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但仍要花好多工夫
14:45
Will this solve解決 the problem個問題? Will economics經濟學 solve解決 everything?
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咁問題解決到嗎?經濟可以解決到嗎?
14:48
Well I'm afraid害怕 not.
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未必
14:50
There is an area一區 that is the oceans海洋, coral珊瑚 reefs珊瑚礁.
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仲有海洋、珊瑚礁
14:53
As you can see,
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你哋睇睇
14:55
they cutcut across the entire整個 globe全球
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佢哋遍佈全球
14:57
all the way from Micronesia密克羅尼西亞
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由密克羅西尼亞一直
14:59
across Indonesia印尼, Malaysia馬來西亞, India印度, Madagascar馬達加斯加
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穿過印尼、馬來西亞、印度、馬達加斯加
15:02
and to the West西 of the Caribbean加勒比海.
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到加勒比海西面
15:04
These red dotsD, these red areas一區,
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呢的紅點,紅色區域
15:06
basically基本上 provide提供 the food食品 and livelihood生活
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基本上為過五億人口
15:08
for more than half一半 a billion people.
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提供了同生計
15:10
So that's almost爭 D an eighth of society社會.
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大概佔全球八分一人口
15:13
And the sad傷心 thing is that, as these coral珊瑚 reefs珊瑚礁 are lost失去 --
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不幸嘅係,隨著珊瑚礁損失 --
15:16
and scientists科學家 tell us
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科學家指出
15:18
that any level水平 of carbon dioxide氧化 in the atmosphere氣氛 above以上 350 parts部分 per million
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大氣中任何超過百萬分之350二氧化碳
15:21
is too dangerous危險 for the survival生存 of these reefs珊瑚礁 --
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對呢的珊瑚礁嘅生存構成危險 --
15:24
we are not only risking冒住 the extinction滅絕
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我哋冒嘅險並唔係
15:26
of the entire整個 coral珊瑚 species物種, the warm溫暖 water corals珊瑚,
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整個珊瑚物種同溫水珊瑚嘅滅絕
15:28
we're not only risking冒住 a fourth of all fish species物種 which are in the oceans海洋,
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並唔係海洋中所有魚類四分一
15:32
but we are risking冒住 the very lives生活 and livelihoods生計
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而係超過五億人
15:34
of more than 500 million people
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嘅生命同生計
15:37
who live in the developing發展 world世界 in poor可憐 countries國家.
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佢哋身處發展中嘅貧窮國家
15:40
So in selecting選擇 targets目標 of 450 parts部分 per million
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因此係選擇百萬分之450嘅目標
15:43
and selecting選擇 two degrees at the climate氣候 negotiations談判,
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同氣候談判爭拗兩者嘅時候
15:46
what we have done is we've我哋都 made作出 an ethical倫理 choice選擇.
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我哋係作出一個道德抉擇
15:49
We've我哋都 actually講真 kind一種 of made作出 an ethical倫理 choice選擇 in society社會
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幾乎係為社會作呢個決擇
15:52
to not have coral珊瑚 reefs珊瑚礁.
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去放棄珊瑚礁
15:54
Well what I will say to you in parting離別
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我完結前想講嘅係
15:56
is that we may可能 have done that.
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呢個或者係我哋會做嘅選擇
15:58
Let's think about it and what it means意味着,
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大家諗下佢嘅含義
16:00
but please, let's not do more of that.
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請唔好繼續咁做
16:02
Because mother母親 nature自然 only has that much
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因為我地擁有嘅
16:04
in ecological生態 infrastructure基礎設施 and that much natural自然 capital資本.
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生態系統同自然資本就只得咁多
16:07
I don't think we can afford too much of such ethical倫理 choices選擇.
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我哋唔可再負擔呢的錯誤
16:10
Thank you.
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多謝各位
16:12
(Applause掌聲)
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(獎聲)
Translated by Lesley Cheung
Reviewed by Michelle Poon

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Pavan Sukhdev - Environmental economist
A banker by training, Pavan Sukhdev runs the numbers on greening up -- showing that green economies are an effective engine for creating jobs and creating wealth.

Why you should listen

In 2008, Sukhdev took a sabbatical from Deutsche Bank, where he'd worked for fifteen years, to write up two massive and convincing reports on the green economy. For UNEP, his “Green Economy Report” synthesized years of research to show, with real numbers, that environmentally sound development is not a bar to growth but rather a new engine for growing wealth and creating employment in the face of persistent poverty. The groundbreaking TEEB (formally “The Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity”) report counts the global economic benefits of biodiversity. It encourages countries to develop and publish “Natural capital accounts” tracking the value of plants, animal, water and other “natural wealth” alongside traditional financial measures in the hope of changing how decisions are made. In his book, Corporation 2020, he envisions tomorrow’s corporations as agents of an inclusive, green economy. He is now the CEO of Gist Advisory, a sustainability consulting firm.

More profile about the speaker
Pavan Sukhdev | Speaker | TED.com