ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

Why you should listen

Yanis Varoufakis describes himself as a "libertarian Marxist," although, he says, "It is not something that I volunteer to talk about much, because the very mention of Marx switches audiences off." He teaches economic theory at the University of Athens, where he challenges mainstream notions -- arguing that after the financial crash of 2008 we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

He became widely known in the first half of 2015 when, as Minister of Finance of the newly formed Greek government, he was a leading, outspoken and much-discussed figure in the renegotiations of Greece's debt.

In May 2017, Varoufakis released Adults in The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment, a personal account of Europe's hidden agenda and an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy.

More profile about the speaker
Yanis Varoufakis | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal>Geneva

Yanis Varoufakis: Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up

瓦魯法基斯: 除非我哋發聲，否則資本主義會蠶食民主

Filmed:
2,947,643 views

你有冇諗過點解政治人物同佢哋以前本身唔同？點解政府好似解決唔到問題？前希臘財長兼經濟學家瓦魯法基斯解釋，係因為今時今日你可以參與政治，但唔可以有權力，因為權力掌握喺控制經濟嘅人身上。佢相信有錢人同公司都喺度蠶食梗政治，呢樣亦係造成金融危機嘅原因。呢埸演講裏面，佢分享佢嘅願景︰一個世界冇資產階級同勞工階級嘅鬥爭，每個人都追隨自由主義、馬克思主義同凱恩斯主義。
- Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
Democracy民主.
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民主
00:14
In the West西,
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活喺西方社會嘅我哋犯咗個好大嘅錯
00:16
we make a colossal巨大 mistake錯誤
taking採取 it for granted授予.
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就係視民主理所當然
雖然民主係一朵最脆弱嘅花
00:20
We see democracy民主
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00:21
not as the most最 fragile脆弱
of flowers花 that it really is,
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但我哋冇將民主視為一朵最脆弱嘅花
我哋反而視佢為社會嘅擺設品
00:26
but we see it as part部分
of our society's社會嘅 furniture家具.
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我哋往往覺得佢係必然嘅
00:29
We tend往往 to think of it
as an intransigent頑固 given畀.
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00:34
We mistakenly誤 believe that capitalism資本主義
begets產生 inevitably不可避免地 democracy民主.
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我哋以為資本主義會帶嚟民主
00:39
It doesn't.
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但唔係
新加坡前總理李光耀
同埋北京一班好似佢咁嘅人
00:41
Singapore's新加坡嘅 Lee李 Kuan闊 Yew紅豆杉
and his great imitators學 in Beijing北京
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說服到人
00:45
have demonstrated證明 beyond超越 reasonable合理 doubt懷疑
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繁華嘅資本市場同顯著嘅增長
00:48
that it is perfectly完全 possible可能
to have a flourishing繁榮 capitalism資本主義,
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係絕對可以出現喺極權政體裏面
00:52
spectacular壯觀 growth增長,
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00:54
while politics政治 remains仲係 democracy-free冇民主.
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00:58
Indeed講真, democracy民主 is receding退後
in our neck脖子 of the woods樹林,
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事實上，民主喺歐洲一帶倒退緊
01:02
here in Europe歐洲.
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01:04
Earlier較早時 this year年,
while I was representing代表 Greece希臘 --
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今年初，我代表希臘
代表當時啱啱新選出嘅希臘政府
01:07
the newly新嘅 elected當選 Greek希臘文 government政府 --
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以財長身份出席歐元集團會議
01:10
in the Eurogroup歐元區 as its Finance金融 Minister部長,
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我被清楚告知
01:12
I was told in no uncertain不塙定性 terms條款
that our nation's國家嘅 democratic民主 process過程 --
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希臘嘅民主進程、我哋嘅選舉
01:17
our elections選舉 --
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唔可以干預
01:19
could not be allowed允許 to interfere干涉
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希臘即將被落實嘅經濟政策
01:21
with economic經濟 policies政策
that were being被 implemented實現 in Greece希臘.
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當時我覺得李光耀或者中國共產黨
01:25
At that moment時刻,
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01:26
I felt覺得 that there could be no greater大
vindication平反 of Lee李 Kuan闊 Yew紅豆杉,
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都唔會有更加好嘅辯護藉口
01:30
or the Chinese中文 Communist共產主義 Party黨,
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而且有幾個固執嘅朋友不斷同我講
01:32
indeed講真 of some recalcitrant頑固
friends朋友 of mine我 who kept保持 telling話畀 me
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如果民主真係可以改變任何嘢
01:36
that democracy民主 would be banned禁止
if it ever threatened威脅 to change變 anything.
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民主就會被打壓
01:41
Tonight今晚, here, I want to present目前 to you
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今晚喺度，我想同你哋講
一個真正民主社會底下嘅經濟情況
01:44
an economic經濟 case情況下
for an authentic真實 democracy民主.
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我想請大家同我一齊再次睇清楚
01:48
I want to ask問吓 you
to join加入 me in believing相信 again
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李光耀、中國共產黨同埋歐元集團
01:53
that Lee李 Kuan闊 Yew紅豆杉,
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01:56
the Chinese中文 Communist共產主義 Party黨
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01:57
and indeed講真 the Eurogroup歐元區
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01:59
are wrong錯 in believing相信
that we can dispense免除 with democracy民主 --
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以為我哋可以分配民主
02:03
that we need an authentic真實,
boisterous熱鬧 democracy民主.
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但我哋真正要嘅
係一個真正、多人參與嘅民主
02:07
And without冇 democracy民主,
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冇咗民主，我哋社會會唔掂
02:10
our societies社會 will be nastier糟糕,
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未來會暗淡，新科技亦都會浪費
02:13
our future未來 bleak暗淡
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02:15
and our great, new新增功能 technologies技術 wasted嘥晒.
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講起浪費
02:18
Speaking說 of waste嘥晒,
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等我指出一個好有趣
會要脅我哋經濟嘅悖論
02:19
allow允許 me to pointD out
an interesting有趣 paradox悖論
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02:22
that is threatening威脅
our economies經濟 as we speak說.
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02:25
I call it the twin雙 peaks峰 paradox悖論.
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我叫佢做「雙峰悖論」
第一個峰你哋知道嘅
02:27
One peak峰值 you understand理解 --
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02:28
you know it, you recognize認識 it --
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02:30
is the mountain山 of debts債務
that has been casting鑄造 a long shadow陰影
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就係喺美國，歐洲，以至全球
債台高築構成長期陰霾
02:35
over the United聯合 States國家,
Europe歐洲, the whole整個 world世界.
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我哋知道有好多債務
02:38
We all recognize認識 the mountain山 of debts債務.
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但好少人意識到佢有個孖生兄弟
02:40
But few幾個 people discern辨別 its twin雙.
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一座由有錢人同大機構嘅閑置資金
砌出嚟嘅山峰
02:45
A mountain山 of idle閒置 cash現金
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02:48
belonging屬於 to rich豐富 savers儲戶
and to corporations公司,
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佢哋唔夠膽投資佢哋嘅存款
去一啲製造營利嘅生產活動度
02:53
too terrified害怕 to invest投資 it
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02:55
into the productive生產 activities活動
that can generate生成 the incomes收入
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02:59
from which的 you can extinguish撲滅
the mountain山 of debts債務
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呢啲生產活動其實可以償還債務
仲可以製造人類急需要用嘅嘢
03:02
and which的 can produce生產 all those things
that humanity人類 desperately拼命 needs需要,
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例如可再生能源
03:06
like green綠色 energy能源.
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依家，我想講兩個數字
03:07
Now let me give you two numbers數字.
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喺過去三個月入面
03:10
Over the last three三 months月,
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我哋喺美國，英國同歐元區
各種可以製造財富嘅商品
03:11
in the United聯合 States國家,
in Britain英國 and in the Eurozone歐元區,
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03:14
we have invested投資, collectively集體,
3.4 trillion万億 dollars美元
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總共投資咗 3.4 萬億美元
03:18
on all the wealth-producing財富生產 goods貨物 --
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03:21
things like industrial工業 plants植物, machinery機械,
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好似有工廠、機械廠、寫字樓
03:24
office辦公室 blocks張, schools學校,
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學校、道路、鐵路、機械等
03:26
roads道路, railways鐵路, machinery機械,
and so on and so forth提出.
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3.4 萬億美元聽落好似好多錢
03:29
$3.4 trillion万億 sounds聽上去 like a lot of money錢
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03:32
until直到 you compare比較 it to the $5.1 trillion万億
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直至你攞佢同 5.1 萬億美元比較
呢一筆 5.1 萬億嘅資金
03:36
that has been slushingslushing around
in the same相同 countries國家,
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喺同一批國家嘅金融機構裏面
03:39
in our financial金融 institutions機構,
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03:41
doing absolutely絕對 nothing
during在 the same相同 period時期
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除咗加劇股票市場通脹
令房價上升之外
03:45
except除咗 inflating膨脹 stock股票 exchanges交流
and bidding投標 up house房子 prices價格.
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喺同一期間就再冇發揮過任何作用
所以呢，一座債務嘅山
同一座閑置現金嘅山
03:50
So a mountain山 of debt債務
and a mountain山 of idle閒置 cash現金
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形成兩座山峰
03:55
form形式 twin雙 peaks峰,
failing炒 to cancel取消 each每個 other out
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兩者都冇通過正常市場運作抵消對方
03:59
through透過 the normal正常
operation操作 of the markets市場.
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結果造成薪酬停滯
04:02
The result結果 is stagnant停滯 wages人工,
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04:05
more than a quarter季度 of 25- to 54-year-olds歲的歲
in America美國, in Japan日本 and in Europe歐洲
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喺美國，日本同歐洲
就有超過四分之一
介乎 25 至 54 歲嘅人冇工做
04:11
out of work.
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跟住，經濟總需求就會
進入永無止境嘅減退周期
04:12
And consequently因此, low低 aggregate骨料 demand需求,
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04:14
which的 in a never-ending永無止境 cycle周期,
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04:17
reinforces加強 the pessimism悲觀 of the investors投資者,
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令投資者對前景更悲觀
04:20
who, fearing憂 low低 demand需求,
reproduce繁殖 it by not investing投資 --
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投資者怕咗低需求量
於是唔再投資
就好似伊底帕斯王嘅老竇
04:24
exactly完全 like Oedipus'狄浦斯 ' father老竇,
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被神預言佢個仔大個之後會殺死佢
04:27
who, terrified害怕
by the prophecy預言 of the oracle甲骨文
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04:29
that his son仔 would grow成長 up to kill殺 him,
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佢好驚
但佢亦無意中營造咗被殺嘅條件出嚟
04:32
unwittingly唔經唔覺 engineered工程 the conditions條件
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04:34
that ensured包 that Oedipus俄狄浦斯,
his son仔, would kill殺 him.
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令佢個仔伊底帕斯王真係殺咗佢
04:38
This is my quarrel嘈 with capitalism資本主義.
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呢個就係我對資本主義嘅爭論
04:41
Its gross總 wastefulness嘥晒,
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資本主義造成浪費
資本主義之下閑置嘅錢早就應該
04:43
all this idle閒置 cash現金,
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04:44
should be energized通電 to improve提高 lives生活,
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用嚟提高人類生活水平、發展人才
04:49
to develop發展 human人類 talents人才,
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04:50
and indeed講真 to finance金融
all these technologies技術,
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同埋資助開發可再生能源科技
04:53
green綠色 technologies技術,
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呢啲科技對保護地球好重要
04:54
which的 are absolutely絕對 essential基本
for saving儲蓄 planet星球 Earth地球.
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04:58
Am I right in believing相信
that democracy民主 might可能 be the answer回答?
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咁民主可唔可以扭轉呢一切？
我相信得
05:01
I believe so,
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但行動之前，我哋要知究竟咩係民主
05:02
but before we move移動 on,
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05:04
what do we mean by democracy民主?
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05:06
Aristotle亚里士多德 defined定義 democracy民主
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亞里士多德定義民主做︰
當自由嘅人同窮人
佔體制大多數控制政府
05:08
as the constitution憲法
in which的 the free自由 and the poor可憐,
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05:13
being被 in the majority大多數, control控制 government政府.
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05:17
Now, of course課程 Athenian雅典 democracy民主
excluded排除 too many好多.
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當然，雅典時代嘅民主
將太多人排除在外
當中包括女人、移民、奴隸
05:20
Women婦女, migrants移民 and,
of course課程, the slaves奴隸.
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但係，如果因為呢啲被排除嘅人
05:24
But it would be a mistake錯誤
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05:25
to dismiss炒魷 the significance意義
of ancient古代 Athenian雅典 democracy民主
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而忽視古雅典民主嘅成功之處
咁係錯嘅
05:28
on the basis基礎 of whom边个 it excluded排除.
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05:31
What was more pertinent相關,
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雅典民主裏邊更值得肯定嘅係
05:32
and continues繼續 to be so
about ancient古代 Athenian雅典 democracy民主,
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而且就算時至今日仍然值得肯定嘅係
佢囊括埋勞動階級
05:36
was the inclusion包含 of the working工作 poor可憐,
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令佢哋唔單止有言論自由嘅權利
05:40
who not only acquired獲得
the right to free自由 speech演講,
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更重要、更重要嘅係
佢哋有權批評政治
05:45
but more importantly重要, crucially關鍵,
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05:47
they acquired獲得 the rights權利
to political政治 judgments判斷
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05:50
that were afforded給予 equal平等 weight重量
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而且佢哋嘅意見
對國家決策係同等重要
05:52
in the decision-making決策
concerning關於 matters個問題 of state狀態.
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05:56
Now, of course課程, Athenian雅典
democracy民主 didn't last long.
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古雅典民主持續咗唔係好耐
就好似一枝好光嘅蠟燭好快就燒完
05:59
Like a candle蠟燭 that burns燒傷 brightly明亮,
it burned燒 out quickly迅速.
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的而且確
06:03
And indeed講真,
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現今嘅自由民主唔係嚟自古雅典
06:04
our liberal自由 democracies民主 today今日
do not have their佢哋 roots根 in ancient古代 Athens雅典.
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佢哋源自 1688 年
光榮革命時期嘅美國憲法
06:09
They have their佢哋 roots根 in the Magna麦格纳 Carta憲章,
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06:11
in the 1688 Glorious光榮 Revolution革命,
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或者嚟自大憲章
06:14
indeed講真 in the American美國 constitution憲法.
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06:17
Whereas而 Athenian雅典 democracy民主
was focusing聚焦 on the masterless無主 citizen公民
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而雅典民主關注嘅係普通平民
授權予貧苦勞動階級
06:22
and empowering授權 the working工作 poor可憐,
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06:25
our liberal自由 democracies民主 are founded成立
on the Magna麦格纳 Carta憲章 tradition傳統,
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我哋嘅自由民主
建立喺大憲章嘅傳統上面
但點都好，大憲章都係有錢人嘅憲章
06:29
which的 was, after all,
a charter憲章 for masters主人.
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當政治領域同經濟領域分開
06:32
And indeed講真, liberal自由 democracy民主
only surfaced浮齣水面 when it was possible可能
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而民主進程受制於政治領域裏面時
06:36
to separate單獨 fully完全 the political政治 sphere領域
from the economic經濟 sphere領域,
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經濟領域，或者商業世界
06:40
so as to confine限制 the democratic民主 process過程
fully完全 in the political政治 sphere領域,
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就會變成一個冇民主成份嘅地方
06:45
leaving離開 the economic經濟 sphere領域 --
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06:47
the corporate企業 world世界, if you want --
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咁樣，自由民主先會出現
06:49
as a democracy-free冇民主 zone區.
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06:53
Now, in our democracies民主 today今日,
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我哋今時今日嘅民主
將經濟由政治領域分出嚟
06:56
this separation分離 of the economic經濟
from the political政治 sphere領域,
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呢一切開始發生嘅時候
07:00
the moment時刻 it started初時 happening發生,
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亦同時引發兩者之間
無可避免嘅長期戰爭
07:02
it gave畀 rise上升 to an inexorable必然,
epic史詩 struggle鬥爭 between之間 the two,
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經濟領域殖民統治政治領域
07:06
with the economic經濟 sphere領域
colonizing殖民 the political政治 sphere領域,
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經濟領域將政治領域嘅權利吞噬
07:10
eating吃 into its power權力.
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07:12
Have you wondered想 why politicians政治家
are not what they used to be?
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你哋有冇諗過點解
宜家嘅政治家同以前嘅佢哋唔同？
07:16
It's not because their佢哋 DNADna
has degenerated退化.
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唔係因為佢哋 DNA 變咗
（笑聲）
07:19
(Laughter笑聲)
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而係因為依家
喺政府做嘢嘅人已經冇權力
07:20
It is rather而 because one can be
in government政府 today今日 and not in power權力,
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因為權力已經從政治領域轉移到
07:25
because power權力 has migrated遷移
from the political政治 to the economic經濟 sphere領域,
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同政治領域無關嘅經濟領域
07:28
which的 is separate單獨.
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07:31
Indeed講真,
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講真，以上就係我憎資本主義嘅地方
07:32
I spoke講嘢 about my quarrel嘈
with capitalism資本主義.
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07:35
If you think about it,
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你諗下，好似一班肉食動物
07:36
it is a little bit位 like
a population人口 of predators掠吃者,
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07:41
that are so successful成功 in decimating富力
the prey獵物 that they must必須 feed飼料 on,
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殺死咗大量佢哋懶以生存嘅獵物
07:46
that in the end結束 they starve餓死.
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最後唯有自己挨餓
同樣道理
07:48
Similarly同樣,
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經濟領域殖民同吞食咗政治領域
07:49
the economic經濟 sphere領域 has been colonizing殖民
and cannibalizing拆 the political政治 sphere領域
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喺呢種情況下佢其實削弱嘅係自己
07:53
to such咁 an extent程度
that it is undermining破壞 itself本身,
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令自己面臨經濟危機
07:57
causing造成 economic經濟 crisis危機.
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企業勢力崛起緊，但政治勢力減緊
07:58
Corporate企業 power權力 is increasing增加,
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08:00
political政治 goods貨物 are devaluing貶值,
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08:03
inequality不等式 is rising上升,
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唔平等嘅問題加劇緊
08:05
aggregate骨料 demand需求 is falling下降
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總需求又下跌梗
08:06
and CEOsCeo of corporations公司 are too scared害怕
to invest投資 the cash現金 of their佢哋 corporations公司.
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企業總裁怕投資自己公司啲錢去第度
08:13
So the more capitalism資本主義 succeeds成功
in taking採取 the demos演示 out of democracy民主,
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資本主義越係將人從民主裏面剔除
兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰就會越嚟越高
08:20
the taller高 the twin雙 peaks峰
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08:21
and the greater大 the waste嘥晒
of human人類 resources資源
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人力資源同人類財富亦會越嚟越浪費
08:25
and humanity's人類嘅 wealth財富.
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08:27
Clearly清楚, if this is right,
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好明顯，如果咁樣嘅推測係啱嘅話
我哋就必須要合返埋政治同經濟領域
08:30
we must必須 reunite團聚 the political政治
and economic經濟 spheres領域
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最好可以畀人民控制大局
08:33
and better do it
with a demos演示 being被 in control控制,
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就好似古雅典一樣
08:37
like in ancient古代 Athens雅典
except除咗 without冇 the slaves奴隸
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但奴隸、女人同移民唔包括在內
08:40
or the exclusion排除 of women婦女 and migrants移民.
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08:44
Now, this is not an original源語言 idea想法.
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呢樣嘢並唔係咩新概念
馬克思主義者一百年前就有咁嘅諗法
08:45
The Marxist馬克思主義 left
had that idea想法 100 years年 ago前
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但佢哋嘅諗法唔係發展得好好
08:48
and it didn't go very well, did it?
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08:50
The lesson堂 that we learned學
from the Soviet蘇聯 debacle崩潰
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我哋從蘇聯解體學到
只有奇蹟先可以
令勞動階層重新獲得權力
08:54
is that only by a miracle奇蹟
will the working工作 poor可憐 be reempoweredreempowered,
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就好似古代雅典冇帶嚟
新形式嘅暴行同浪費咁
09:00
as they were in ancient古代 Athens雅典,
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09:02
without冇 creating創建 new新增功能 forms形式
of brutality暴行 and waste嘥晒.
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09:06
But there is a solution解決方案:
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但有一個解决辦法：消滅勞動階層
09:08
eliminate消除 the working工作 poor可憐.
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09:11
Capitalism's資本主義的 doing it
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資本主義正係做緊呢樣嘢
09:12
by replacing取代 low-wage低人工 workers工人
with automata胞自動機, androids機械人, robots機械人.
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佢通過自動程式、安卓系統、機械人
取代低薪嘅勞動力
09:19
The problem個問題 is
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問題係只要經濟同政治領域一直分離
09:20
that as long as the economic經濟
and the political政治 spheres領域 are separate單獨,
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自動化過程會令
兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰更加高
09:23
automation自動化 makes使 the twin雙 peaks峰 taller高,
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加劇浪費，同埋加深社會矛盾
09:28
the waste嘥晒 loftier崇高
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09:30
and the social社會 conflicts衝突 deeper更深,
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我相信中國呢類地方會好快發生咁嘅事
09:32
including包括 --
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09:34
soon好快, I believe --
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09:35
in places地方 like China中國.
185
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09:38
So we need to reconfigure配置,
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因此我哋要改造
我哋要將經濟領域同政治領域拉返埋
09:41
we need to reunite團聚 the economic經濟
and the political政治 spheres領域,
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方法就係將兩個領域民主化
09:44
but we'd我哋會 better do it
by democratizing民主化 the reunified統一 sphere領域,
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以免我哋最終生活喺
一個監控狂、超專制嘅制度下
09:50
lest以免 we end結束 up with
a surveillance-mad監視-癲 hyperautocracyhyperautocracy
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如果唔係《駭客任務》電影
就好容易變成紀錄片
09:55
that makes使 The Matrix矩陣, the movie電影,
look like a documentary紀錄片.
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（笑聲）
10:00
(Laughter笑聲)
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問題唔係資本主義可以承受
自己帶嚟嘅科技創新
10:01
So the question個問題 is not
whether係唔係 capitalism資本主義 will survive生存
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10:05
the technological技術 innovations創新
it is spawning產卵.
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最令我感興趣嘅係
10:07
The more interesting有趣 question個問題
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資本主義會唔會畀《駭客任務》
入面嘅敵托邦取代
10:09
is whether係唔係 capitalism資本主義 will be succeeded成功
by something resembling類似 a Matrix矩陣 dystopia烏托邦
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又或者好似《星際迷航》嘅社會取代
10:15
or something much closer近
to a Star明星 Trek-like徒步旅行一樣 society社會,
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《星際迷航》裏面，機械服務人類
10:19
where machines機器 serve服務 the humans人類
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而人類就擴張能量，探索星際
10:22
and the humans人類 expend花費 their佢哋 energies能量
exploring探索 the universe宇宙
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同埋喺一啲類似
古雅典嘅高科技集會度
10:26
and indulging沉迷 in long debates辯論
about the meaning意義 of life
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喋喋不休咁討論人生意義
10:30
in some ancient古代, Athenian-like雅典像,
high高 tech技術 agora墟.
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10:36
I think we can afford起 to be optimistic樂觀.
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我覺得我哋可以樂觀啲睇
但要擁有《星際迷航》嘅烏托邦
或者《駭客任務》嘅敵托邦
10:41
But what would it take,
202
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10:42
what would it look like
203
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1976
10:44
to have this Star明星 Trek-like徒步旅行一樣 utopia烏托邦,
instead相反 of the Matrix-like類矩陣 dystopia烏托邦?
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我哋要做啲咩呢？
10:50
In practical實際 terms條款,
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等我略略講下幾個例子
10:51
allow允許 me to share共享 just briefly簡要,
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10:53
a couple夫婦 of examples例子.
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企業層面上，你可以想像一個資金市場
10:55
At the level水平 of the enterprise企業,
208
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10:56
imagine想象 a capital資本 market市場,
209
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10:59
where you earn賺 capital資本 as you work,
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喺嗰度，你只要工作就可以賺取資金
11:02
and where your capital資本 follows遵循 you
from one job工作 to another另一個,
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即使你轉工、轉公司
你賺嘅資金都會跟住你
11:08
from one company公司 to another另一個,
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11:09
and the company公司 --
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而每間公司都係由嗰度做嘢嘅人持有
11:11
whichever無論 one you happen發生
to work at at that time --
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11:14
is solely隻 owned擁有 by those who happen發生
to work in it at that moment時刻.
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所有收入嚟自資本同利潤
11:19
Then all income收入 stems莖
from capital資本, from profits利潤,
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11:24
and the very concept概念
of wage人工 labor勞動 becomes成為 obsolete過時.
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僱傭概念最後會過時
唔會再有人擁有但冇為公司工作
11:28
No more separation分離 between之間 those
who own自己 but do not work in the company公司
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11:35
and those who work
but do not own自己 the company公司;
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或者冇擁有公司但為公司工作
唔會再有資本階級
同勞動階級之間嘅鬥爭
11:38
no more tug-of-war拔河
between之間 capital資本 and labor勞動;
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投資、儲蓄之間再唔會有大嘅差距
11:42
no great gap差距 between之間
investment投資 and saving儲蓄;
221
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11:46
indeed講真, no towering高聳 twin雙 peaks峰.
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亦再冇兩座高聳入雲嘅賃務同閑錢嘅山
11:50
At the level水平 of the global全球
political政治 economy經濟,
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至於全球政治型經濟層面
可以想像一下
11:53
imagine想象 for a moment時刻
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我哋國家貨幣同一個
11:54
that our national國家 currencies貨幣
have a free-floating自由浮動 exchange交換 rate率,
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由國際貨幣基金組織同 G20 峰會
代表全人類發行嘅全球性數碼貨幣
11:59
with a universal普遍,
global全球, digital數字 currency貨幣,
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有自由浮動匯率
12:03
one that is issued發出
by the International國際 Monetary貨幣 Fund基金,
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12:07
the G-G-20,
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12:09
on behalf代表 of all humanity人類.
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12:11
And imagine想象 further進一步
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再想像下
所有國際貿易都用呢隻貨幣進行
12:12
that all international國際 trade貿易
is denominated計價 in this currency貨幣 --
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12:17
let's call it "the cosmos宇宙,"
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我哋就稱佢為「宇宙幣」
12:19
in units單位 of cosmos宇宙 --
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12:21
with every每 government政府 agreeing同意
to be paying支付 into a common常見 fund基金
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每個政府都會根據自己國家
貿易逆差或者順差
12:26
a sum和 of cosmos宇宙 units單位 proportional比例
to the country's國家嘅 trade貿易 deficit赤字,
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向一個共同基金按比例投入宇宙幣
12:31
or indeed講真 to a country's國家嘅 trade貿易 surplus盈餘.
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12:35
And imagine想象 that that fund基金 is utilized利用
to invest投資 in green綠色 technologies技術,
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想像呢個基金用嚟投資
全世界可再生能源科技
12:40
especially尤其係 in parts部分 of the world世界
where investment投資 funding資金 is scarce稀缺.
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尤其投資到世界上資金唔到嘅地方
呢個唔係新構思
12:46
This is not a new新增功能 idea想法.
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實際上，佢係由凱恩斯 1944 年
12:48
It's what, effectively有效,
John約翰 Maynard梅纳德 Keynes凯恩斯 proposed提出
240
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12:51
in 1944 at the Bretton布雷顿 Woods樹林 Conference會.
241
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喺布列敦森林會議上提出嘅
12:56
The problem個問題 is
242
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問題係當時佢哋冇科技實現呢個理念
12:57
that back then, they didn't have
the technology技術 to implement實現 it.
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13:00
Now we do,
244
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但依家我哋有啦
尤其當政治同經濟領域重新走埋一齊
13:01
especially尤其係 in the context上下文
of a reunified統一 political-economic政治-經濟 sphere領域.
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13:08
The world世界 that I am describing描述 to you
246
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我描述梗嘅呢個世界同時係自由嘅
13:11
is simultaneously同時 libertarian自由主義,
247
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13:13
in that it prioritizes優先
empowered授權 individuals人,
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佢將被賜權力嘅人
同馬克思主義者擺喺首位
13:18
Marxist馬克思主義,
249
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因為咁樣
13:19
since因為 it will have confined局限
to the dustbin垃圾箱 of history歷史
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資本同勞動階層之間嘅分別
同埋凱恩斯主義
13:22
the division劃分 between之間 capital資本 and labor勞動,
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會消失喺歷史長河裏面
13:25
and Keynesian凯恩斯,
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13:27
global全球 Keynesian凯恩斯.
253
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13:30
But above以上 all else重,
254
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但總言之
呢個係一個我哋能夠
想像到真正民主嘅世界
13:31
it is a world世界 in which的 we will be able能
to imagine想象 an authentic真實 democracy民主.
255
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13:37
Will such咁 a world世界 dawn黎明?
256
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咁嘅世界會唔會出現呢？
或者我哋會淪落到好似
《黑客帝國》咁嘅反烏德邦？
13:40
Or shall應 we descend下降
into a Matrix-like類矩陣 dystopia烏托邦?
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答案就喺我哋大家
要做嘅政治決擇入面
13:44
The answer回答 lies謊言 in the political政治 choice選擇
that we shall應 be making決策 collectively集體.
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13:49
It is our choice選擇,
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呢個係我哋嘅選擇
而我哋最好用民主方式決定
13:51
and we'd我哋會 better make it democratically民主.
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多謝
13:54
Thank you.
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（掌聲）
13:55
(Applause掌聲)
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14:01
Bruno布鲁诺 Giussani吉萨尼: YanisYanis ...
263
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主持︰瓦魯法基斯⋯
14:03
It was you who described描述 yourself自己
in your biosBios as a libertarian自由主義 Marxist馬克思主義.
264
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你喺自我介紹入面叫自己做
自由派馬克思主義者
14:10
What is the relevance關聯
of Marx's馬克思嘅 analysis分析 today今日?
265
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咁分析馬克思主義
同現今世界有咩關係呢？
講者：如果我投先講嘅内容
有相關嘅地方
14:14
YanisYanis VaroufakisVaroufakis: Well, if there was
any relevance關聯 in what I just said,
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咁馬克思主義就係有參考價值
14:17
then Marx馬克思 is relevant相關.
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因為重新連起政治
同經濟領域嘅重點係
14:18
Because the whole整個 pointD of reunifying大業
the political政治 and economic經濟 is --
268
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如果我哋唔做
14:22
if we don't do it,
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咁科技創新就會導致總需求大幅下跌
14:23
then technological技術 innovation創新
is going to create創建
270
851360
2256
14:25
such咁 a massive大規模 fall秋天 in aggregate骨料 demand需求,
271
853640
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14:27
what Larry拉里 Summers夏天
refers指 to as secular世俗 stagnation停滯.
272
855960
4776
亦即係 Larry Summers
所講嘅經濟長期停滯
隨住危機由世界某一度向外擴散
14:32
With this crisis危機 migrating遷移
from one part部分 of the world世界,
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860760
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就好似而家咁
14:35
as it is now,
274
863640
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佢唔單止令我哋嘅民主制度唔穩定
14:37
it will destabilize破壞
not only our democracies民主,
275
865200
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仲會沖擊唔係特别歡迎
自由民主嘅發展中國家
14:39
but even the emerging新興 world世界 that is not
that keen敏銳 on liberal自由 democracy民主.
276
867920
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如果呢個論述成立嘅話
咁馬克思主義絕對係相關嘅
14:44
So if this analysis分析 holds認為 water水,
then Marx馬克思 is absolutely絕對 relevant相關.
277
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而哈耶克論述都係
14:48
But so is Hayek哈耶克,
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呢樣就係點解我係
自由派馬克思主義者
14:49
that's why I'm a libertarian自由主義 Marxist馬克思主義,
279
877760
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凱恩斯都係
14:51
and so is Keynes凯恩斯,
280
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所以我自己都係矇查查
14:52
so that's why I'm totally完全 confused困惑.
281
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（笑聲）
14:54
(Laughter笑聲)
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主持：確實係
14:56
BGBg: Indeed講真, and possibly可能 we are too, now.
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但可能我哋依家都係咁添
14:58
(Laughter笑聲)
284
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（笑聲）
14:59
(Applause掌聲)
285
887400
1976
（掌聲）
講者︰如果你冇覺得困惑嘅話
即係代表你冇喺度思考。得唔得？
15:01
YV分心: If you are not confused困惑,
you are not thinking思維, OK?
286
889400
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15:04
BGBg: That's a very, very Greek希臘文
philosopher哲學家 kind一種 of thing to say --
287
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主持︰真係好希臘哲學家嘅講法
講者：應該係愛因斯坦至真
15:07
YV分心: That was Einstein愛因斯坦, actually講真 --
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主持：你提到新加坡同中國
15:09
BGBg: During在 your talk
you mentioned提到 Singapore星架坡 and China中國,
289
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仲有琴晚喺演講嘉賓晚宴
15:11
and last night at the speaker揚聲器 dinner晚餐,
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你對西方點樣看待中國一事上
表達咗強烈嘅觀點
15:13
you expressed表示 a pretty好 strong強 opinion意見
about how the West西 looks睇黎 at China中國.
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你想唔想同我哋講下？
15:18
Would you like to share共享 that?
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講者：嗯，偽善嘅面孔有好多
15:20
YV分心: Well, there's a great
degree程度 of hypocrisy虛偽.
293
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2160
15:23
In our liberal自由 democracies民主,
we have a semblance外表 of democracy民主.
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而喺我哋自由民主制度之下
我哋有虛有其表嘅民主
15:27
It's because we have confined局限,
as I was saying說 in my talk,
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915720
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因為正如我剛才所講
我哋框死咗民主喺政治領域裏面
15:30
democracy民主 to the political政治 sphere領域,
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918480
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以致當去到經濟領域時
15:32
while leaving離開 the one sphere領域
where all the action行動 is --
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920160
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所有動作都係唔民主嘅
15:35
the economic經濟 sphere領域 --
298
923640
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15:36
a completely完全 democracy-free冇民主 zone區.
299
924880
1840
15:39
In a sense感,
300
927280
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可以咁講
激進啲咁講
15:40
if I am allowed允許 to be provocative挑釁,
301
928560
2200
中國今時今日就好似 19 世紀嘅英國
15:43
China中國 today今日 is closer近 to Britain英國
in the 19th屆 century世紀.
302
931880
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因為記得當時
15:48
Because remember記得,
303
936320
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我哋將自由主義同民主唥埋一齊
15:49
we tend往往 to associate副
liberalism自由主義 with democracy民主 --
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937600
2336
但呢個係歷史上嘅錯誤
15:51
that's a mistake錯誤, historically歷史.
305
939960
1496
15:53
Liberalism自由主義, liberal自由,
it's like John約翰 Stuart斯图尔特 Mill軋機.
306
941480
2536
自由主義就好似
John Stuart Mill 所諗
John Stuart Mill
對民主進程特別懷疑
15:56
John約翰 Stuart斯图尔特 Mill軋機 was particularly特別
skeptical懷疑 about the democratic民主 process過程.
307
944040
4696
宜家你見到嘅中國
同工業革命時期嘅英國—
16:00
So what you are seeing看到 now in China中國
is a very similar類似 process過程
308
948760
5376
尤其是由第一次到第二次
工業革命過渡期嘅英國
16:06
to the one that we had in Britain英國
during在 the Industrial工業 Revolution革命,
309
954160
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有一個非常相似嘅過程
16:09
especially尤其係 the transition過渡
from the first to the second第二.
310
957360
2976
用西方社會 19 世紀
做過嘅事嚟斥責中國
16:12
And to be castigating鬧 China中國
311
960360
3296
16:15
for doing that which的 the West西 did
in the 19th屆 century世紀,
312
963680
3136
16:18
smacks之嫌 of hypocrisy虛偽.
313
966840
1320
實在太虚偽啦
16:21
BGBg: I am sure that many好多 people here
are wondering想 about your experience經驗
314
969520
3656
主持：我相信在座好多人都對你今年初
出任希臘財政部長嘅經歷好奇
16:25
as the Finance金融 Minister部長 of Greece希臘
earlier較早時 this year年.
315
973200
2736
講者：我都知你會問呢個問題
16:27
YV分心: I knew知 this was coming來.
316
975960
1381
16:29
BGBg: Yes.
317
977365
1251
主持：冇錯
咁六個月之後，你點睇頭半年嘅經歷？
16:30
BGBg: Six六 months月 after,
318
978640
1336
16:32
how do you look back
at the first half一半 of the year年?
319
980000
2400
講者：就我個人嚟講，係非常興奮
16:35
YV分心: Extremely好 exciting令人興奮,
from a personal人 pointD of view视图,
320
983920
2616
16:38
and very disappointing令人失望,
321
986560
1256
亦非常失望
16:39
because we had an opportunity機會
to reboot重新啟動 the Eurozone歐元區.
322
987840
3896
因為我哋有機會重振歐元區
不單只希臘，而係歐元區
16:43
Not just Greece希臘, the Eurozone歐元區.
323
991760
2096
令成個區走出自滿
16:45
To move移動 away from the complacency自滿
324
993880
2936
同唔再拒絕承認…
16:48
and the constant係咁 denial拒絕
that there was a massive大規模 --
325
996840
2456
16:51
and there is a massive大規模
architectural建築 fault故障 line線
326
999320
2856
宜家有一條結構性嘅裂痕
横跨成個歐元區
16:54
going through透過 the Eurozone歐元區,
327
1002200
2176
16:56
which的 is threatening威脅, massively大量,
the whole整個 of the European歐洲 Union聯盟 process過程.
328
1004400
4416
威脅到歐盟發展
我哋曾經喺希臘項目裏面
有咁嘅機會做好去
17:00
We had an opportunity機會
on the basis基礎 of the Greek希臘文 program程序 --
329
1008840
3176
呢個希臘項目係第一個計劃
解决呢啲拒認嘅問題
17:04
which的 by the way,
330
1012040
1336
17:05
was the first program程序
to manifest清單 that denial拒絕 --
331
1013400
4376
17:09
to put it right.
332
1017800
1216
不幸嘅係
17:11
And, unfortunately不幸,
333
1019040
1216
歐元區嘅權勢
17:12
the powers權力 in the Eurozone歐元區,
334
1020280
1816
歐元集團嘅權勢
17:14
in the Eurogroup歐元區,
335
1022120
1200
仍然選擇繼續否認問題存在
17:16
chose選擇 to maintain保持 denial拒絕.
336
1024079
1977
但你知道有嘢會發生
17:18
But you know what happens發生.
337
1026079
1257
蘇聯嘅經驗已經講咗畀我哋知
17:19
This is the experience經驗
of the Soviet蘇聯 Union聯盟.
338
1027359
2056
17:21
When you try to keep alive活著
339
1029440
2495
如果你想令根本生存唔到嘅經濟系统
17:23
an economic經濟 system系統
that architecturally建築 cannot唔可以 survive生存,
340
1031960
3879
通過政治意願或者
威權主義嘅方式繼續生存
17:28
through透過 political政治 will
and through透過 authoritarianism專制,
341
1036520
2655
你可能成功將佢延長壽命
17:31
you may可能 succeed成功 in prolonging延長 it,
342
1039200
1656
但係當改變來臨時
17:32
but when change變 happens發生
343
1040880
1575
事情就會好突然，而且災難性
17:34
it happens發生 very abruptly突然
and catastrophically失靈.
344
1042480
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主持︰你希望見到咩變化？
17:37
BGBg: What kind一種 of change變
are you foreseeing預見?
345
1045000
2007
講者：嗯，無容置疑
17:39
YV分心: Well, there's no doubt懷疑
346
1047031
1254
如果我哋唔改變歐元區嘅架構
17:40
that if we don't change變
the architecture建築 of the Eurozone歐元區,
347
1048309
2667
歐元區係唔會有將來
17:43
the Eurozone歐元區 has no future未來.
348
1051001
1894
主持：當你做希臘財長嗰時
17:44
BGBg: Did you make any mistakes錯誤
when you were Finance金融 Minister部長?
349
1052920
2896
你有冇做過錯誤嘅决定？
講者：日日都有
17:47
YV分心: Every每 day.
350
1055840
1216
主持：例如？
講者：任何人面對過去…
17:49
BGBg: For example例子?
YV分心: Anybody任何人 who looks睇黎 back --
351
1057080
2536
17:51
(Applause掌聲)
352
1059640
2080
（掌聲）
17:56
No, but seriously嚴重.
353
1064120
1376
唔係，認真咁講
17:57
If there's any Minister部長 of Finance金融,
or of anything else重 for that matter個問題,
354
1065520
3576
如果有一位財政部長
或者其他部長同你講
佢哋工作咗六個月之後
18:01
who tells話畀 you after six六 months月 in a job工作,
355
1069120
2216
尤其喺咁大壓力嘅情況底下
佢哋冇做錯過事嘅話
18:03
especially尤其係 in such咁 a stressful壓力 situation情況,
356
1071360
3696
18:07
that they have made作出 no mistake錯誤,
they're dangerous危險 people.
357
1075080
2696
呢種人其實好危險
當然，我有犯過錯
18:09
Of course課程 I made作出 mistakes錯誤.
358
1077800
1296
我最大錯誤就係喺二月尾
18:11
The greatest最大 mistake錯誤
was to sign標誌 the application應用
359
1079120
2816
簽咗申請延長債務協議嘅申請書
18:13
for the extension擴展 of a loan貸款 agreement協議
360
1081960
2096
18:16
in the end結束 of February二月.
361
1084080
1616
當時我以為債權方
18:17
I was imagining想象
362
1085720
1216
18:18
that there was a genuine真正 interest興趣
on the side一邊 of the creditors債權人
363
1086960
2976
真係有興趣去搵一個共同利益
18:21
to find common常見 ground地面.
364
1089960
1256
但事實唔係咁
18:23
And there wasn't唔係.
365
1091240
1216
佢哋嘅興趣係想打壓我哋嘅政府
18:24
They were simply淨係 interested興趣
in crushing破碎 our government政府,
366
1092480
2616
原因係佢哋唔想處理
歐元區嗰條結構裂痕
18:27
just because they did not want
367
1095120
1456
18:28
to have to deal交易 with
the architectural建築 fault故障 lines線
368
1096600
3136
18:31
that were running運行 through透過 the Eurozone歐元區.
369
1099760
2016
同埋佢哋唔想承認
18:33
And because they didn't want to admit承認
370
1101800
1816
佢哋過去五年對希臘
實施咗惡夢嘅計劃
18:35
that for five五 years年 they were implementing實施
a catastrophic災難 program程序 in Greece希臘.
371
1103640
3616
我哋喺失去咗三分一嘅名義 GDP
18:39
We lost失去 one-third1/3 of our nominal名義 GDPGdp.
372
1107280
2896
情況比起大蕭條時更加差
18:42
This is worse更糟 than the Great Depression抑鬱症.
373
1110200
1936
喺嗰班實施呢啲政策嘅債權人之中
18:44
And no one has come clean清潔
374
1112160
1256
18:45
from the troika三駕馬車 of lenders銀行
that have been imposing實施 this policy政策
375
1113440
2936
無人可以置身事外到去講
「呢個係巨大嘅錯誤」
18:48
to say, "This was a colossal巨大 mistake錯誤."
376
1116400
2976
主持︰除咗上述
除咗呢啲進取嘅言論
18:51
BGBg: Despite儘管 all this,
377
1119400
1216
18:52
and despite儘管 the aggressiveness侵略性
of the discussion討論,
378
1120640
2336
你似乎都同意歐洲一體化
18:55
you seem好似 to be remaining剩餘
quite都幾 pro-European親歐.
379
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2416
講者：絕對係
18:57
YV分心: Absolutely絕對.
380
1125440
1216
我之所以對歐盟同歐元區嘅批評
18:58
Look, my criticism批評
of the European歐洲 Union聯盟 and the Eurozone歐元區
381
1126680
4136
係因為我係一個歐洲人
19:02
comes來 from a person人
who lives生活 and breathes呼吸 Europe歐洲.
382
1130840
4040
19:07
My greatest最大 fear恐懼 is that
the Eurozone歐元區 will not survive生存.
383
1135680
3576
我最大嘅恐懼係
歐元區無法生存落去
因為如果歐元區唔可以繼續走落去
19:11
Because if it doesn't,
384
1139280
1456
19:12
the centrifugal離心 forces力量
that will be unleashed釋放
385
1140760
2856
咁離心力就會被解放出嚟
就好似魔鬼咁解放
19:15
will be demonic惡魔,
386
1143640
1696
最終會摧毀整個歐盟
19:17
and they will destroy摧毀 the European歐洲 Union聯盟.
387
1145360
1976
咁嘅惡果唔只對歐洲
對全球經濟都會產生嚴重影響
19:19
And that will be catastrophic災難
not just for Europe歐洲
388
1147360
2416
19:21
but for the whole整個 global全球 economy經濟.
389
1149800
1616
我哋可能係世界上最大嘅經濟體
19:23
We are probably可能 the largest最大
economy經濟 in the world世界.
390
1151440
4096
19:27
And if we allow允許 ourselves自己
391
1155560
1736
如果我哋容許自己
走返 30 年代嘅舊路
19:29
to fall秋天 into a route路線
of the postmodern後現代主義 1930's的,
392
1157320
2816
19:32
which的 seems好似 to me to be what we are doing,
393
1160160
2656
雖然我覺得
我哋依家就行緊咁嘅路
19:34
then that will be detrimental有害
394
1162840
1816
咁對歐洲人嘅未來
同埋歐洲以外嘅人嘅未來
19:36
to the future未來 of Europeans歐洲
and non-Europeans非歐洲人 alike一樣.
395
1164680
3416
都係不利嘅
主持：我哋真係好希望
呢點上面你係錯嘅
19:40
BGBg: We definitely絕對 hope希望
you are wrong錯 on that pointD.
396
1168120
2416
瓦魯法基斯，多謝你嚟到 TED
19:42
YanisYanis, thank you for coming來 to TED泰德.
397
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1696
講者：多謝
19:44
YV分心: Thank you.
398
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1216
（掌聲）
19:45
(Applause掌聲)
399
1173520
4823
Translated by Bob Ayers
Reviewed by Chak Lam Wan

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

Why you should listen

Yanis Varoufakis describes himself as a "libertarian Marxist," although, he says, "It is not something that I volunteer to talk about much, because the very mention of Marx switches audiences off." He teaches economic theory at the University of Athens, where he challenges mainstream notions -- arguing that after the financial crash of 2008 we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

He became widely known in the first half of 2015 when, as Minister of Finance of the newly formed Greek government, he was a leading, outspoken and much-discussed figure in the renegotiations of Greece's debt.

In May 2017, Varoufakis released Adults in The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment, a personal account of Europe's hidden agenda and an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy.

More profile about the speaker
Yanis Varoufakis | Speaker | TED.com
THE ORIGINAL VIDEO ON TED.COM