TEDGlobal>Geneva
António Guterres: Refugees have the right to be protected
安东尼奥·古特雷斯: 难民享有受到保护的权利
Filmed:
Readability: 4.6
1,188,210 views
联合国难民事务署高级专员安东尼奥·古特雷斯认为我们能够解决全球难民危机。对于为何我们应该致力于此，他给出了出乎意料却无可反驳的理由。在与TED布鲁诺·吉乌撒尼的对谈中，古特雷斯讨论了当前危机的历史根源，并概述了那些致力于庇护、收容、安置成千上万处于绝望之中的家庭的欧洲国家当下的氛围。从大局出发，古特雷斯呼吁推进接纳与尊重的多边化进程，以对抗ISIS等极端组织的反难民宣传和招募机制。
António Guterres - Designate Secretary-General of the United Nations
António Guterres is at the forefront of advocating for refugee rights around the world. Full bio
António Guterres is at the forefront of advocating for refugee rights around the world. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
布鲁诺·吉乌撒尼：专员，感谢您来到TED。
00:12
Bruno Giussani: Commissioner,
thank you for coming to TED.
thank you for coming to TED.
0
373
2799
安东尼奥·古特雷斯：非常荣幸。
00:15
António Guterres: Pleasure.
1
3196
1317
布鲁诺：让我们从数据聊起。
00:16
BG: Let's start with a figure.
2
4537
1452
2015年，有将近100万难民和移民
从不同国家涌入欧洲，
从不同国家涌入欧洲，
00:18
During 2015, almost one million refugees
and migrants arrived in Europe
and migrants arrived in Europe
3
6013
4141
00:22
from many different countries,
4
10178
1475
比如叙利亚和伊拉克，这众所周知，
00:23
of course, from Syria and Iraq,
but also from Afghanistan
but also from Afghanistan
5
11677
2698
也有来自于阿富汗、孟加拉、
厄立特里亚等其他国家的。
厄立特里亚等其他国家的。
00:26
and Bangladesh and Eritrea and elsewhere.
6
14399
2462
对此，人们抱持两种态度：
00:28
And there have been reactions
of two different kinds:
of two different kinds:
7
16885
2500
00:31
welcoming parties and border fences.
8
19409
3715
接纳和排斥。
但我想从短期影响和长期影响的角度
来探讨这个问题。
来探讨这个问题。
00:35
But I want to look at it a little bit
9
23148
2057
00:37
from the short-term
and the long-term perspective.
and the long-term perspective.
10
25229
2830
我先问一个很简单的问题：
00:40
And the first question is very simple:
11
28083
3492
00:43
Why has the movement of refugees
spiked so fast in the last six months?
spiked so fast in the last six months?
12
31599
4468
为什么在过去六个月间
难民数量激增？
难民数量激增？
00:48
AG: Well, I think, basically,
what triggered this huge increase
what triggered this huge increase
13
36091
3293
安东尼奥：我认为难民数量激增
主要是由叙利亚难民引发的。
主要是由叙利亚难民引发的。
00:51
was the Syrian refugee group.
14
39408
1921
00:53
There has been an increased movement
into Europe from Africa, from Asia,
into Europe from Africa, from Asia,
15
41353
4736
一直以来，欧洲的移民数量都在增长，
这些移民或来自非洲，或来自亚洲，
00:58
but slowly growing, and all of a sudden
we had this massive increase
we had this massive increase
16
46113
3826
但仅仅是缓慢增长，
但在今年年初的几个月间，
移民数量突然飞速增长。
移民数量突然飞速增长。
01:01
in the first months of this year.
17
49963
2434
为什么呢？我认为有三个原因，
01:04
Why? I think there are three reasons,
18
52421
1868
01:06
two long-term ones and the trigger.
19
54313
2033
两个长期性因素和一个触发性因素。
01:08
The long-term ones,
in relation to Syrians,
in relation to Syrians,
20
56370
2548
长期性因素和叙利亚人自身有关，
01:10
is that hope is less and less
clear for people.
clear for people.
21
58942
6607
他们越来越看不到希望。
01:17
I mean, they look at their own country
22
65573
2032
我是指，当他们看到自己国家的局势，
01:19
and they don't see much hope
to go back home,
to go back home,
23
67629
2681
就觉得重返家园希望渺茫，
01:22
because there is no political solution,
24
70334
1945
因为没有政治解决方案，
01:24
so there is no light
at the end of the tunnel.
at the end of the tunnel.
25
72303
3055
所以黑暗尽头没有曙光。
另外，叙利亚难民
在周边国家的生存条件持续恶化。
在周边国家的生存条件持续恶化。
01:27
Second, the living conditions
26
75382
1624
01:29
of the Syrians in the neighboring
countries have been deteriorating.
countries have been deteriorating.
27
77030
3326
我们和世界银行刚刚进行了一次调查，
01:32
We just had research with the World Bank,
28
80380
2253
01:34
and 87 percent of the Syrians in Jordan
29
82657
4336
发现有87%的居住于约旦的叙利亚人，
以及93%的居住于黎巴嫩的叙利亚人，
01:39
and 93 percent of the Syrians in Lebanon
30
87017
2901
都生活在当地贫困线以下。
01:41
live below the national poverty lines.
31
89942
2862
01:44
Only half of the children go to school,
32
92828
2933
只有一半的儿童能去上学。
01:47
which means that people
are living very badly.
are living very badly.
33
95785
3022
这说明人们生存得非常艰难。
01:50
Not only are they refugees, out of home,
34
98831
1924
不提他们的难民身份，背井离乡，
01:52
not only have they suffered
what they have suffered,
what they have suffered,
35
100779
2452
也不提他们所经历的磨难，
单单是贫困的生存环境
就足以令他们举步维艰。
就足以令他们举步维艰。
01:55
but they are living in very,
very dramatic conditions.
very dramatic conditions.
36
103255
2569
触发性因素就是国际援助突然间减少。
01:57
And then the trigger
was when all of a sudden,
was when all of a sudden,
37
105848
2320
02:00
international aid decreased.
38
108192
1703
02:01
The World Food Programme was forced,
for lack of resources,
for lack of resources,
39
109919
2793
由于资源匮乏，世界粮食计划署
对叙利亚难民的食物供应不得不减少30%。
对叙利亚难民的食物供应不得不减少30%。
02:04
to cut by 30 percent food support
to the Syrian refugees.
to the Syrian refugees.
40
112736
3064
他们由于没有工作许可，
02:07
They're not allowed to work,
41
115824
1423
02:09
so they are totally dependent
on international support,
on international support,
42
117271
3528
完全依赖国际援助，
援助减少让他们感觉
“世界正在抛弃我们”。
“世界正在抛弃我们”。
02:12
and they felt, "The world
is abandoning us."
is abandoning us."
43
120823
2304
我认为这就是触发性因素。
02:15
And that, in my opinion, was the trigger.
44
123151
1960
突然之间，人们都慌了，
02:17
All of a sudden, there was a rush,
45
125135
1635
他们开始大批迁移。
02:18
and people started to move
in large numbers
in large numbers
46
126794
2015
说实话，如果我面临同样的处境，
02:20
and, to be absolutely honest,
47
128833
1558
02:22
if I had been in the same situation
48
130415
2199
并且有足够的勇气，
02:24
and I would have been brave
enough to do it,
enough to do it,
49
132638
2107
我也会那样做的。
02:26
I think I would have done the same.
50
134769
1703
02:28
BG: But I think what surprised
many people is it's not only sudden,
many people is it's not only sudden,
51
136496
4265
布鲁诺：不过我认为令人意外的
并不仅仅是事发突然，
并不仅仅是事发突然，
而是事情本不该发生得如此突然。
02:32
but it wasn't supposed to be sudden.
52
140785
2200
02:35
The war in Syria has been
happening for five years.
happening for five years.
53
143009
2413
叙利亚内战已经有5年之久了。
数以百万计的难民居住在
叙利亚周边的难民营和难民村里。
叙利亚周边的难民营和难民村里。
02:37
Millions of refugees are in camps
and villages and towns around Syria.
and villages and towns around Syria.
54
145446
3660
您也曾被提醒会有类似情况发生，
02:41
You have yourself warned
about the situation
about the situation
55
149130
2380
02:43
and about the consequences
of a breakdown of Libya, for example,
of a breakdown of Libya, for example,
56
151534
3283
比如，利比亚政府倒台可能引发的后果，
02:46
and yet Europe looked totally unprepared.
57
154841
3039
但是欧洲看起来似乎毫无准备。
02:50
AG: Well, unprepared because divided,
58
158618
2459
安东尼奥：毫无准备
是由于欧洲各国各自为政，
是由于欧洲各国各自为政，
02:53
and when you are divided,
you don't want to recognize the reality.
you don't want to recognize the reality.
59
161101
3278
各自为政导致每个国家都不想面对现实。
大家都倾向于拖延着不做决定，
02:56
You prefer to postpone decisions,
60
164403
1857
02:58
because you do not have
the capacity to make them.
the capacity to make them.
61
166284
2436
因为大家都没有能力接纳那么多难民。
证据是，即使当移民潮发生后，
03:00
And the proof is that even when
the spike occurred,
the spike occurred,
62
168744
3462
欧洲各国仍然各自为政，
03:04
Europe remained divided
63
172230
1303
03:05
and was unable to put in place
a mechanism to manage the situation.
a mechanism to manage the situation.
64
173557
5669
他们无法建立能够
应对这种情况的机制。
应对这种情况的机制。
你刚刚说到有100万难民，
03:11
You talk about one million people.
65
179250
1691
03:12
It looks enormous,
66
180965
1571
这听起来很多，
03:14
but the population of the European Union
is 550 million people,
is 550 million people,
67
182560
4500
但是欧盟的人口总数是5亿5千万，
03:19
which means we are talking about one
per every 2,000 Europeans.
per every 2,000 Europeans.
68
187084
4365
也就是说每2000个欧洲人应对1个难民。
相比之下，在黎巴嫩，
03:23
Now, in Lebanon, we have one refugee
per three Lebanese.
per three Lebanese.
69
191473
3929
每3个黎巴嫩人就要应对1个难民。
黎巴嫩的情况如何？
03:27
And Lebanon? Struggling,
of course, but it's managing.
of course, but it's managing.
70
195426
4231
艰难应对，这是自然的，
但是他们做到了。
03:31
So, the question is: is this something
that could have been managed
that could have been managed
71
199681
4266
所以，问题是,
我们是不是也能处理好难民问题，
——暂且不提最重要的因素，
03:35
if -- not mentioning the most
important thing,
important thing,
72
203971
3021
也就是处理难民问题的根本成因，
03:39
which would have been
addressing the root causes,
addressing the root causes,
73
207016
2372
现在不管问题的成因，只看现象——
03:41
but forgetting about root causes for now,
74
209412
1976
03:43
looking at the phenomenon as it is --
75
211412
1825
03:45
if Europe were able to come
together in solidarity
together in solidarity
76
213261
4290
如果欧洲各国能够团结起来，
为入境处创造充足的接纳能力的话。
03:49
to create an adequate
reception capacity of entry points?
reception capacity of entry points?
77
217575
4140
03:53
But for that, the countries at entry
points need to be massively supported,
points need to be massively supported,
78
221739
4684
要做到这一点，
边境国家需要得到大力协助，
边境国家需要得到大力协助，
03:58
and then screening the people
with security checks
with security checks
79
226447
3005
对入境难民进行安检，
04:01
and all the other mechanisms,
80
229476
1405
并实施一切必要的机制，
04:02
distributing those that are coming
into all European countries,
into all European countries,
81
230905
3505
然后根据每个欧盟国家的接纳能力
向其输送难民。
向其输送难民。
04:06
according to the possibilities
of each country.
of each country.
82
234434
2233
04:08
I mean, if you look at
the relocation program
the relocation program
83
236691
2276
你可以去看看欧盟委员会批准的
迁移安置计划，
迁移安置计划，
04:10
that was approved by the Commission,
always too little too late,
always too little too late,
84
238991
3063
其力度和实效性都远远不够。
04:14
or by the Council, too little too late --
85
242078
1922
布鲁诺：这一计划已经失败了。
04:16
BG: It's already breaking down.
86
244024
1485
安东尼奥：我所在的国家
本应接收4000个难民；
本应接收4000个难民；
04:17
AG: My country is supposed
to receive four thousand.
to receive four thousand.
87
245533
2457
对葡萄牙来说，4000人不算什么。
04:20
Four thousand in Portugal means nothing.
88
248014
2007
所以说，如果处理得当，
难民都可以得到妥善安置。
难民都可以得到妥善安置。
04:22
So this is perfectly manageable
if it is managed,
if it is managed,
89
250045
3769
但当下的情况是，
入境处承受了所有的压力，
入境处承受了所有的压力，
04:25
but in the present circumstances,
the pressure is at the point of entry,
the pressure is at the point of entry,
90
253838
3410
此后难民毫无秩序地穿过巴尔干地区，
04:29
and then, as people move
in this chaotic way through the Balkans,
in this chaotic way through the Balkans,
91
257272
3459
向德国、瑞典和奥地利迁徙。
04:32
then they come to Germany,
Sweden, basically, and Austria.
Sweden, basically, and Austria.
92
260755
3346
最终的情况是，
这三个国家在不断地接收难民，
这三个国家在不断地接收难民，
04:36
They are the three countries that are,
in the end, receiving the refugees.
in the end, receiving the refugees.
93
264125
3506
而其他欧洲国家仅是旁观而已。
04:39
The rest of Europe is looking
without doing much.
without doing much.
94
267655
2532
04:42
BG: Let me try to bring up
three questions,
three questions,
95
270211
2359
布鲁诺：让我再问三个问题，
04:44
playing a bit devil's advocate.
96
272594
1497
跟您唱唱反调。
04:46
I'll try to ask them, make them blunt.
97
274115
2922
我可能问得比较直接，
04:49
But I think the questions are very present
98
277061
2039
但我认为这些问题
正是许多欧洲民众当下关心的。
正是许多欧洲民众当下关心的。
04:51
in the minds of many people
in Europe right now,
in Europe right now,
99
279124
2253
首先是关于数量。
04:53
The first, of course, is about numbers.
100
281401
1931
您提到5亿5千万人应对100万人不成问题，
04:55
You say 550 million versus one million
is not much, but realistically,
is not much, but realistically,
101
283356
4806
但现实来讲，
欧洲到底能够接纳多少难民？
欧洲到底能够接纳多少难民？
05:00
how many people can Europe take?
102
288186
1950
05:02
AG: Well, that is a question
that has no answer,
that has no answer,
103
290160
3512
安东尼奥：这是一个没有答案的问题，
05:05
because refugees have
the right to be protected.
the right to be protected.
104
293696
3545
因为难民有受到保护的权利，
05:09
And there is such a thing
as international law,
as international law,
105
297947
3167
国际法中也有这样的规定，
05:13
so there is no way you can say,
"I take 10,000 and that's finished."
"I take 10,000 and that's finished."
106
301138
4369
所以你不能说
“我只接收1万人，就这么多”。
“我只接收1万人，就这么多”。
我要强调一件事：
05:17
I remind you of one thing:
107
305531
1787
05:19
in Turkey, at the beginning of the crisis,
I remember one minister saying,
I remember one minister saying,
108
307342
3876
我记得在难民危机初期，
土耳其的一位官员曾说过，
土耳其的一位官员曾说过，
05:23
"Turkey will be able to receive
up to 100,000 people."
up to 100,000 people."
109
311242
2975
“土耳其最多能接收10万难民。”
05:26
Turkey has now two million
three-hundred thousand
three-hundred thousand
110
314241
3445
但现在，大约共有230万难民
居住在土耳其。
居住在土耳其。
05:29
or something of the sort,
if you count all refugees.
if you count all refugees.
111
317710
2448
05:32
So I don't think it's fair to say
how many we can take.
how many we can take.
112
320182
4189
因此，我认为我们不应该讨论
欧洲能接纳多少难民，
欧洲能接纳多少难民，
我们应该商榷的是：
05:36
What it is fair to say is:
how we can we organize ourselves
how we can we organize ourselves
113
324395
3546
欧洲该如何组织起自己，
以担负起在国际事务中的责任？
05:39
to assume our international
responsibilities?
responsibilities?
114
327965
2745
欧洲还不能做到这一点，
05:42
And Europe has not been able to do so,
115
330734
2450
因为，总体来讲，
欧洲各国还是各自为政的，
欧洲各国还是各自为政的，
05:45
because basically, Europe is divided
because there is no solidarity
because there is no solidarity
116
333208
3551
并没有团结起来共同解决欧洲事务。
05:48
in the European project.
117
336783
1179
05:49
And it's not only about refugees;
there are many other areas.
there are many other areas.
118
337986
3126
不仅仅是在难民问题上，
在其他领域也有许多类似的情况。
在其他领域也有许多类似的情况。
说实话，就当下的问题来讲，
05:53
And let's be honest, this is the moment
in which we need more Europe
in which we need more Europe
119
341136
3634
我们需要更多欧洲国家参与进来，
而非各自为政。
而非各自为政。
05:56
instead of less Europe.
120
344794
1536
05:58
But as the public less and less believes
in European institutions,
in European institutions,
121
346354
4619
但由于公众越来越不相信欧盟机构，
06:02
it is also each time more difficult
to convince the public
to convince the public
122
350997
3282
我们感到越来越难说服他们
让更多欧洲国家来参与解决问题。
让更多欧洲国家来参与解决问题。
06:06
that we need more Europe
to solve these problems.
to solve these problems.
123
354303
2302
布鲁诺：事情发展到现在，
06:08
BG: We seem to be at the point
124
356629
1447
难民数量看起来正在影响相关政治决策，
06:10
where the numbers turn into political
shifts, particularly domestically.
shifts, particularly domestically.
125
358100
3411
特别是国家内政。
06:13
We saw it again this weekend in France,
126
361535
1872
比如这个周末法国宣布的决策，
许多国家都出现过这种情况，
06:15
but we have seen it over
and over in many countries:
and over in many countries:
127
363431
2452
比如波兰、丹麦、瑞士，等等，
06:17
in Poland and in Denmark
and in Switzerland and elsewhere,
and in Switzerland and elsewhere,
128
365907
2733
这些国家对难民的态度
都由于难民数量而突然转变，
都由于难民数量而突然转变，
06:20
where the mood changes radically
because of the numbers,
because of the numbers,
129
368664
3549
06:24
although they are not very significant
in absolute numbers.
in absolute numbers.
130
372237
6210
尽管绝对数量的变化并不大。
06:30
The Prime Minister of --
131
378471
2053
（某国的）首相……
06:32
AG: But, if I may, on these:
132
380548
1722
安东尼奥：请容我对这一情况插句话，
06:34
I mean, what does a European see at home
133
382294
3301
我想说，在一个没有移民居住的小村庄里，
06:37
in a village where there are no migrants?
134
385619
2596
一个普通欧洲人眼中的难民是怎样的呢？
06:40
What a European sees is, on television,
135
388239
4628
他们在电视上看到，
在几个月前，每一天，
他们只要打开电视就能在新闻里看到，
他们只要打开电视就能在新闻里看到，
06:44
every single day, a few months ago,
opening the news every single day,
opening the news every single day,
136
392891
4400
大量人群涌入，毫无秩序，
06:49
a crowd coming, uncontrolled,
137
397315
2438
06:51
moving from border to border,
138
399777
1740
从这个国家的边境到那个国家的边境，
06:53
and the images on television
were of hundreds
were of hundreds
139
401541
2180
电视画面里就是成百上千的人涌入欧洲。
06:55
or thousands of people moving.
140
403745
1667
06:57
And the idea is that nobody
is taking care of it --
is taking care of it --
141
405436
3180
这让他们觉得
没有人对这种情况进行控制——
没有人对这种情况进行控制——
07:00
this is happening without any
kind of management.
kind of management.
142
408640
3349
这么多难民，却没有人管理。
07:04
And so their idea was,
"They are coming to my village."
"They are coming to my village."
143
412013
2825
于是他们感到——
”这些人都会涌入到我的村庄里来。“
”这些人都会涌入到我的村庄里来。“
07:06
So there was this completely false idea
that Europe was being invaded
that Europe was being invaded
144
414862
4073
由此人们形成了一个完全错误的想法：
难民正入侵欧洲，
07:10
and our way of life is going to change,
and everything will --
and everything will --
145
418959
3761
我们的生活会受到干扰，
所有事情都会……
所有事情都会……
07:14
And the problem is that if this
had been properly managed,
had been properly managed,
146
422744
3865
问题在于，如果一切都能被妥善管理，
如果难民被以恰当的方式接收，
07:18
if people had been properly received,
147
426633
1862
07:20
welcomed, sheltered at point of entry,
screened at point of entry,
screened at point of entry,
148
428519
4715
在入境处接受安检和暂时安置，
然后乘飞机去往其他欧洲国家，
07:25
and the moved by plane
to different European countries,
to different European countries,
149
433258
2689
这样就不会让人们产生恐慌情绪了。
07:27
this would not have scared people.
150
435971
2158
07:30
But, unfortunately, we have
a lot of people scared,
a lot of people scared,
151
438153
2643
但是，很遗憾，
现在许多人都谈难民而色变，
现在许多人都谈难民而色变，
07:32
just because Europe was not able
to do the job properly.
to do the job properly.
152
440820
3023
就是因为欧洲没能妥善处理难民问题。
07:35
BG: But there are villages in Germany
153
443867
1992
布鲁诺：但是，德国有一些
只有300人居住的村庄，
只有300人居住的村庄，
07:37
with 300 inhabitants and 1,000 refugees.
154
445883
3336
却迁入了1000个难民。
07:41
So, what's your position?
155
449243
1974
您对此是怎么看的？
07:43
How do you imagine these people reacting?
156
451241
1967
您觉得当地居民会作何反应？
07:45
AG: If there would be a proper
management of the situation
management of the situation
157
453232
2873
安东尼奥：如果能实施有效的管理措施，
07:48
and the proper distribution
of people all over Europe,
of people all over Europe,
158
456129
3080
把难民合理有序地送往欧洲各国，
07:51
you would always have
the percentage that I mentioned:
the percentage that I mentioned:
159
459233
2976
难民与当地居民比例将会保持在1:2000。
07:54
one per each 2,000.
160
462233
1802
正是由于管理措施不够合理，
07:56
It is because things are not
properly managed
properly managed
161
464059
2269
我们才陷入了现在这种
令人难以接受的境地。
令人难以接受的境地。
07:58
that in the end we have situations
162
466352
1760
08:00
that are totally impossible to live with,
and of course if you have a village --
and of course if you have a village --
163
468136
6417
当然，如果有这样的村庄——
在黎巴嫩，有许多这样的村庄，
叙利亚人比黎巴嫩人还要多。
叙利亚人比黎巴嫩人还要多。
08:06
in Lebanon, there are many villages
164
474577
1677
08:08
that have more Syrians than Lebanese;
Lebanon has been living with that.
Lebanon has been living with that.
165
476278
3408
黎巴嫩也适应了这种情形。
我并不是说同样的情况
也要发生在欧洲，
也要发生在欧洲，
08:11
I'm not asking for the same
to happen in Europe,
to happen in Europe,
166
479710
2267
让所有欧洲的村庄
都接收比当地居民更多的难民。
都接收比当地居民更多的难民。
08:14
for all European villages to have
more refugees than inhabitants.
more refugees than inhabitants.
167
482001
3187
我是想让欧洲
以合理的方式承担起它的责任，
以合理的方式承担起它的责任，
08:17
What I am asking is for Europe
to do the job properly,
to do the job properly,
168
485212
3055
08:20
and to be able to organize itself
to receive people
to receive people
169
488291
3421
能够有规划地接收难民，
08:23
as other countries in the world
were forced to do in the past.
were forced to do in the past.
170
491736
2928
就像此前世界上其他国家所做的那样。
08:26
BG: So, if you look at the global
situation not only at Europe --
situation not only at Europe --
171
494688
3064
布鲁诺：如果我们看一下全球局势，
而不仅仅是欧洲……
而不仅仅是欧洲……
（掌声）
布鲁诺：很好！
布鲁诺：很好！
08:29
(Applause)
172
497776
1289
（掌声）
08:31
BG: Yes!
173
499089
1151
08:32
(Applause)
174
500264
4634
08:36
BG: If you look at the global situation,
so, not only at Europe,
so, not only at Europe,
175
504922
3021
布鲁诺：如果我们看一下全球局势，
而不仅仅是欧洲，
而不仅仅是欧洲，
08:39
I know you can make
a long list of countries
a long list of countries
176
507967
2104
会发现许多国家都并无作为，
08:42
that are not really stepping up,
177
510095
3123
但我更关心与之相对的，
08:45
but I'm more interested
in the other part --
in the other part --
178
513242
2448
08:47
is there somebody
who's doing the right thing?
who's doing the right thing?
179
515714
2190
有没有哪些国家做得很好呢？
08:50
AG: Well, 86 percent
of the refugees in the world
of the refugees in the world
180
518402
2431
安东尼奥：全世界86%的难民
居住在发展中国家。
居住在发展中国家。
08:52
are in the developing world.
181
520857
2055
某些国家，比如埃塞俄比亚——
08:54
And if you look at
countries like Ethiopia --
countries like Ethiopia --
182
522936
3320
08:58
Ethiopia has received
more than 600,000 refugees.
more than 600,000 refugees.
183
526280
3777
埃塞俄比亚接收了超过60万难民。
09:02
All the borders in Ethiopia are open.
184
530486
2016
其所有边境都为难民开放。
09:05
And they have, as a policy,
185
533304
1868
埃塞俄比亚有一项名为“人民互助”的政策，
09:07
they call the "people to people" policy
that every refugee should be received.
that every refugee should be received.
186
535196
4096
规定每一位难民都应该被接纳。
09:11
And they have South Sudanese,
187
539316
1579
那里有来自南苏丹、苏丹、索马里的难民。
09:12
they have Sudanese, they have Somalis.
188
540919
2008
他们接收来自所有周边国家的难民，
09:14
They have all the neighbors.
189
542951
1857
09:16
They have Eritreans.
190
544832
1764
包括厄立特里亚难民。
09:18
And, in general,
191
546929
1295
总体来说，非洲国家对难民非常热情，
09:20
African countries are extremely
welcoming of refugees coming,
welcoming of refugees coming,
192
548248
4180
在中东和亚洲，我们也看到了
对难民敞开国门的意愿。
对难民敞开国门的意愿。
09:24
and I would say that in the Middle East
193
552452
2572
09:27
and in Asia, we have seen a tendency
for borders to be open.
for borders to be open.
194
555048
5193
现在，针对叙利亚难民的情况，
有一个特殊问题，
有一个特殊问题，
09:32
Now we see some problems
with the Syrian situation,
with the Syrian situation,
195
560265
3365
09:35
as the Syrian situation evolved
into also a major security crisis,
into also a major security crisis,
196
563654
4257
就是其涉及严重的安全危机。
09:39
but the truth is that for a large period,
197
567935
2093
但事实上，有很长一段时间，
09:42
all borders in the Middle East were open.
198
570052
1992
中东各国的边境都是互相开放的。
09:44
The truth is that for Afghans,
199
572068
1452
比如，当时巴基斯坦和伊朗的边境
都为阿富汗人开放，
都为阿富汗人开放，
09:45
the borders of Pakistan and Iran
were open for, at the time,
were open for, at the time,
200
573544
2833
有600万阿富汗人进入这两个国家。
09:48
six million Afghans that came.
201
576401
1893
09:50
So I would say that even today,
the trend in the developing world
the trend in the developing world
202
578318
3821
所以我想说，即使在今天，
发展中国家也愿意为难民敞开国门。
09:54
has been for borders to be open.
203
582163
2326
而在发达国家，
这些问题却变得越来越复杂，
这些问题却变得越来越复杂，
09:56
The trend in the developed world
is for these questions to become
is for these questions to become
204
584513
4412
10:00
more and more complex,
205
588949
2106
特别是当社会舆论
10:03
especially when there is,
in the public opinion,
in the public opinion,
206
591079
2571
10:05
a mixture of discussions between refugee
protections on one side
protections on one side
207
593674
5083
将庇护难民和国家安全问题
混为一谈的时候。
混为一谈的时候。
10:10
and security questions -- in my opinion,
misinterpreted -- on the other side.
misinterpreted -- on the other side.
208
598781
3639
我认为这是对国家安全问题的误读。
布鲁诺：我们一会儿会谈到安全问题。
10:14
BG: We'll come back to that too,
209
602444
1541
您刚刚提到世界粮食计划署
物资缩减的情况。
物资缩减的情况。
10:16
but you mentioned the cutting
of funding and the vouchers
of funding and the vouchers
210
604009
2740
10:18
from the World Food Programme.
211
606773
1460
这反映了致力于难民问题的组织
所普遍遇到的资金短缺问题。
所普遍遇到的资金短缺问题。
10:20
That reflects the general underfunding
of the organizations
of the organizations
212
608257
2833
10:23
working on these issues.
213
611114
2316
现在全世界都是开始关注难民问题了，
10:26
Now that the world seems to have woken up,
214
614155
2555
10:28
are you getting more funding
and more support,
and more support,
215
616734
2191
你们是否得到了更多的资助和支援，
10:30
or it's still the same?
216
618949
1413
还是并没有变化？
10:32
AG: We are getting more support.
217
620386
1799
安东尼奥：我们得到了更多的支援。
10:34
I would say that we are coming
close to the levels of last year.
close to the levels of last year.
218
622209
4433
我相信我们正接近去年的水平。
10:39
We were much worse during the summer.
219
627100
2349
夏天时情况要更糟糕一些。
10:41
But that is clearly insufficient
to address the needs of the people
to address the needs of the people
220
629799
3858
但这些显然无法满足难民的需求，
也无法满足那些接纳难民的国家的需求。
10:45
and address the needs of the countries
221
633681
1890
10:47
that are supporting the people.
222
635595
1499
我们在这里简单了解一下
10:49
And here we have a basic review
of the criteria, the objectives,
of the criteria, the objectives,
223
637118
5926
一些必要的有关发展合作的
准则、目标和优先权。
准则、目标和优先权。
10:55
the priorities of development
cooperation that is required.
cooperation that is required.
224
643068
2792
比如，黎巴嫩和约旦都是中等收入国家。
10:57
For instance, Lebanon and Jordan
are middle-income countries.
are middle-income countries.
225
645884
3003
由于它们是中等收入国家，
11:00
Because they are middle-income countries,
226
648911
1974
所以无法从世界银行
获得软贷款或补助。
获得软贷款或补助。
11:02
they cannot receive soft loans
or grants from the World Bank.
or grants from the World Bank.
227
650909
2911
但就当下的情况，
这样做并不合理，
这样做并不合理，
11:05
Now, today this doesn't make any sense,
228
653844
2199
因为它们在为全球公共利益做贡献。
11:08
because they are providing
a global public good.
a global public good.
229
656067
2329
它们接纳了数百万难民，
11:10
They have millions of refugees there,
230
658420
1810
11:12
and to be honest, they are pillars
of stability in the region,
of stability in the region,
231
660254
3490
说实话，它们是保障区域稳定的柱石，
它们为此面对了诸多困难，
11:15
with all the difficulties they face,
232
663768
1738
并且是全球集体安全的第一道防线。
11:17
and the first line of defense
of our collective security.
of our collective security.
233
665530
2690
因此，如果这些国家不能优先享受
发展合作政策的好处，
发展合作政策的好处，
11:20
So it doesn't make sense
234
668244
1163
11:21
that these countries
are not a first priority
are not a first priority
235
669431
2143
11:23
in development cooperation policies.
236
671598
1745
显然不合情理。
但事实就是
它们没有这种优先权。
它们没有这种优先权。
11:25
And they are not.
237
673367
1159
11:26
And not only do the refugees live
in very dramatic circumstances
in very dramatic circumstances
238
674550
3402
在这些国家，
不仅难民生活在极端困苦的环境中，
不仅难民生活在极端困苦的环境中，
11:29
inside those countries,
239
677976
1230
当地居民的生活也十分艰辛，
11:31
but the local communities
themselves are suffering,
themselves are suffering,
240
679230
2826
这是由于工资降低，
11:34
because salaries went down,
241
682080
2256
由于失业率上升，
11:37
because there are more unemployed,
242
685491
1647
11:39
because prices and rents went up.
243
687162
2400
由于物价和租金上涨。
11:42
And, of course, if you look
at today's situation
at today's situation
244
690238
3944
如果看一下这些国家
现今的经济指标，
现今的经济指标，
11:46
of the indicators in these countries,
245
694206
3098
11:49
it is clear that, especially
their poor groups of the population,
their poor groups of the population,
246
697328
5483
不难发现，
当地贫困群体的生活处境愈加艰难，
当地贫困群体的生活处境愈加艰难，
11:54
are living worse and worse
because of the crisis they are facing.
because of the crisis they are facing.
247
702835
3235
这都源自国家所面临的危机。
11:58
BG: Who should be providing this support?
248
706094
1984
布鲁诺：那么该由谁来提供支援呢？
12:00
Country by country, international
organizations, the European Union?
organizations, the European Union?
249
708102
3321
各国政府，国际组织，还是欧盟？
12:03
Who should be coming up with this support?
250
711447
2048
由谁来提供这些支援呢？
安东尼奥：我们需要各方共同努力。
12:05
AG: We need to join all efforts.
251
713519
1545
很明显，双边合作是必要的，
12:07
It's clear that bilateral
cooperation is essential.
cooperation is essential.
252
715088
2545
多边合作也是必要的，
12:09
It's clear that multilateral
cooperation is essential.
cooperation is essential.
253
717657
2763
国际金融机构也应该有更灵活的政策，
12:12
It's clear that international financial
institutions should have flexibility
institutions should have flexibility
254
720444
3595
以便可以向这些国家
提供更多的经济援助。
提供更多的经济援助。
12:16
in order to be able to invest
more massively
more massively
255
724063
2719
12:18
in support to these countries.
256
726806
1526
我们需要利用一切手段；
12:20
We need to combine all the instruments
and to understand that today,
and to understand that today,
257
728356
3246
我们需要了解，
这种情况将会长期存在，
这种情况将会长期存在，
12:23
in protracted situations,
at a certain moment,
at a certain moment,
258
731626
2446
所以那种只看眼前，
12:26
that it doesn't make sense anymore
to make a distinction
to make a distinction
259
734096
2670
将人道主义援助与经济发展援助
割裂开来的做法是不合理的。
割裂开来的做法是不合理的。
12:28
between humanitarian aid
and development aid
and development aid
260
736790
3649
12:32
or development processes.
261
740463
2349
因为这涉及到学校里的孩子，
12:34
Because you are talking
about children in school,
about children in school,
262
742836
3603
涉及到健康问题，
12:38
you are talking about health,
263
746463
1409
涉及到超负荷的基础设施。
12:39
you are talking about infrastructure
that is overcrowded.
that is overcrowded.
264
747896
2832
12:42
You are talking about things
that require a long-term perspective,
that require a long-term perspective,
265
750752
3569
这些问题都需要
以长期的发展的眼光来看待，
以长期的发展的眼光来看待，
12:46
a development perspective
266
754345
1333
仅仅从紧急人道主义援助的角度出发
是不够的。
是不够的。
12:47
and not only an emergency
humanitarian aid perspective.
humanitarian aid perspective.
267
755702
3036
布鲁诺：我想请您对今早报纸上的
这则新闻发表一下意见。
这则新闻发表一下意见。
12:51
BG: I would like your comment on something
268
759147
2024
12:53
that was in newspapers this morning.
269
761195
1753
这是一段由处于领先地位的
美国共和党总统候选人
美国共和党总统候选人
12:54
It is a statement made
by the current front-runner
by the current front-runner
270
762972
5372
13:00
for the Republican nomination
for US President, Donald Trump.
for US President, Donald Trump.
271
768368
3346
唐纳德·特朗普发表的声明。
13:03
Yesterday, he said this.
272
771738
1366
昨天，他这样说道——
13:05
(Laughter)
273
773128
1001
（笑声）
别这样，来听听，
这段话很有趣。
这段话很有趣。
13:06
No, listen to this. It's interesting.
274
774153
1792
他说：“我提议全面禁止穆斯林进入美国，
13:07
I quote: "I am calling for a total
and complete shutdown
and complete shutdown
275
775969
2870
13:10
of Muslims entering the US,
276
778863
1698
直到我国的议员们搞清楚
到底发生了什么。”
到底发生了什么。”
13:12
until our country's representatives
can figure out what's going on."
can figure out what's going on."
277
780585
4316
13:17
How do you react to that?
278
785425
1359
您对此如何回应？
13:18
AG: Well, it's not only Donald Trump.
279
786808
2084
安东尼奥：唐纳德·特朗普并不是特例。
其他国家的几位政治人物
也曾有过类似的言论，
也曾有过类似的言论，
13:20
We have seen several people
around the world
around the world
280
788916
2266
13:23
with political responsibility
saying, for instance,
saying, for instance,
281
791206
2413
“不应该接收穆斯林难民”，诸如此类。
13:25
that Muslims refugees
should not be received.
should not be received.
282
793643
2158
13:28
And the reason why they say this
283
796108
3500
他们之所以这样说，
是由于他们认为
这样的说法或做法
这样的说法或做法
13:31
is because they think
that by doing or saying this,
that by doing or saying this,
284
799632
3099
13:34
they are protecting
the security of their countries.
the security of their countries.
285
802755
2582
能够保障其国家安全。
我曾在政府机构工作过，
13:37
Now, I've been in government.
286
805361
1433
13:38
I am very keen on the need for governments
287
806818
2278
我非常理解维护国家和人民安全
13:41
to protect the security of their countries
288
809120
2445
对于政府工作的重要性。
13:43
and their people.
289
811589
1151
但如果你在美国或任何一个欧洲国家
发表这样的言论——
发表这样的言论——
13:44
But if you say, like that,
290
812764
2923
13:47
in the US or in any European country,
291
815711
2506
13:50
"We are going to close our doors
to Muslim refugees,"
to Muslim refugees,"
292
818241
3946
”我们拒绝接收穆斯林难民“，
你所说的话就很有可能
被恐怖组织的宣传所利用。
被恐怖组织的宣传所利用。
13:54
what you are saying
is the best possible help
is the best possible help
293
822211
3112
13:57
for the propaganda
of terrorist organizations.
of terrorist organizations.
294
825347
2410
14:00
Because what you are saying --
295
828146
1612
因为你所说的——
14:01
(Applause)
296
829782
5575
（掌声）
14:07
What you are saying will be heard
by all the Muslims in your own country,
by all the Muslims in your own country,
297
835381
5583
你们国家的所有穆斯林
都会听到你的言论，
都会听到你的言论，
这会为恐怖组织的
招募和其他机制铺平道路。
招募和其他机制铺平道路。
14:12
and it will pave the way
for the recruitment
for the recruitment
298
840988
2073
14:15
and the mechanisms that,
through technology,
through technology,
299
843085
2621
现在，通过科技手段，
14:17
Daesh and al-Nusra, al-Qaeda,
and all those other groups
and all those other groups
300
845730
3855
达伊沙、努斯拉阵线、
基地组织及其他此类团体
基地组织及其他此类团体
正渗入我们的社会。
14:21
are today penetrating in our societies.
301
849609
2398
你所说的话就是在告诉他们，
”是的，我们就是反对你们。“
”是的，我们就是反对你们。“
14:24
And it's just telling them,
"You are right, we are against you."
"You are right, we are against you."
302
852031
4121
14:28
So obviously, this is creating
in societies that are all multiethnic,
in societies that are all multiethnic,
303
856176
6390
所以很明显，在一个多种族、
多宗教、多文化的社会里，
多宗教、多文化的社会里，
14:34
multi-religious, multicultural,
304
862590
1749
14:36
this is creating a situation
in which, really,
in which, really,
305
864363
3372
这种言论为恐怖组织的宣传
创造了更为有利的环境，
创造了更为有利的环境，
14:39
it is much easier for the propaganda
of these terrorist organizations
of these terrorist organizations
306
867759
3390
14:43
to be effective in recruiting
people for terror acts
people for terror acts
307
871173
5113
使其更容易招募到当地人
在发表这种言论的国家
实施恐怖袭击。
实施恐怖袭击。
14:48
within the countries where these kinds
of sentences are expressed.
of sentences are expressed.
308
876310
3914
14:52
BG: Have the recent attacks in Paris
and the reactions to them
and the reactions to them
309
880248
2983
布鲁诺：最近发生在巴黎的恐怖袭击
以及人们对此的反应
以及人们对此的反应
14:55
made your job more difficult?
310
883255
1983
有没有增加您工作的难度？
安东尼奥：当然增加了。
14:57
AG: Undoubtedly.
311
885262
1359
14:58
BG: In what sense?
312
886645
1461
布鲁诺：从哪种意义上讲呢？
15:00
AG: In the sense that, I mean,
for many people the first reaction
for many people the first reaction
313
888992
4316
安东尼奥：我是指，许多人对此类
恐怖袭击的第一反应就是——关闭边境，
恐怖袭击的第一反应就是——关闭边境，
15:05
in relation to these kinds of terrorist
attacks is: close all borders --
attacks is: close all borders --
314
893332
3420
15:08
not understanding that the terrorist
problem in Europe is largely homegrown.
problem in Europe is largely homegrown.
315
896776
4445
他们没有意识到欧洲恐怖主义问题
大多是在欧洲内部产生的。
大多是在欧洲内部产生的。
15:13
We have thousands and thousands
of European fighters in Syria and in Iraq,
of European fighters in Syria and in Iraq,
316
901245
4973
在叙利亚和伊拉克，
有成千上万的战士来自欧洲，
有成千上万的战士来自欧洲，
所以仅靠拒绝叙利亚人入境
并不能解决问题。
并不能解决问题。
15:18
so this is not something that you solve
by just not allowing Syrians to come in.
by just not allowing Syrians to come in.
317
906242
4230
而且我必须讲，我确信，
15:22
And I must say, I am convinced
318
910496
2456
15:24
that the passport that appeared,
319
912976
4172
现场发现的那本护照，
15:29
I believe, was put
by the person who has blown --
by the person who has blown --
320
917172
3747
就是那本在引爆炸弹的那个人——
布鲁诺：自杀式爆炸袭击者。
15:32
BG: -- himself up, yeah.
321
920943
1531
安东尼奥：对，我认为那是故意的，
15:34
AG: [I believe] it was on purpose,
322
922498
1911
15:36
because part of the strategies
of Daesh is against refugees,
of Daesh is against refugees,
323
924433
3618
因为达伊沙的政策是反难民的，
他们认为这些难民
本该为伊斯兰王权服务，
本该为伊斯兰王权服务，
15:40
because they see refugees as people
that should be with the caliphate
that should be with the caliphate
324
928075
3413
却投奔了改革派穆斯林。
15:43
and are fleeing to the crusaders.
325
931512
2452
15:45
And I think that is part of Daesh's
strategy to make Europe react,
strategy to make Europe react,
326
933988
4063
那本护照就是达伊沙
在欧洲激起民愤的手段，
在欧洲激起民愤的手段，
15:50
closing its doors to Muslim refugees
327
938075
2391
让欧洲拒绝接收穆斯林难民，
15:52
and having an hostility
towards Muslims inside Europe,
towards Muslims inside Europe,
328
940490
3691
在欧洲煽动对穆斯林的敌意，
15:56
exactly to facilitate Daesh's work.
329
944205
3522
他们便可坐收渔利。
15:59
And my deep belief is that
it was not the refugee movement
it was not the refugee movement
330
947751
4508
我深信不疑的是，
并不是难民潮引发了恐怖主义。
16:04
that triggered terrorism.
331
952283
1681
正如我刚才所说，
16:05
I think, as I said,
332
953988
1160
16:07
essentially terrorism in Europe
is today a homegrown movement
is today a homegrown movement
333
955172
3527
从根本上讲，
欧洲恐怖主义是在内部滋生的，
欧洲恐怖主义是在内部滋生的，
16:10
in relation to the global situation
that we are facing,
that we are facing,
334
958723
3295
这和我们当下所面对的国际局势不无关系。
我们应该让这些恐怖团体知道
他们打错算盘了，
他们打错算盘了，
16:14
and what we need is exactly
to prove these groups wrong,
to prove these groups wrong,
335
962042
4420
16:18
by welcoming and integrating effectively
336
966486
3473
为此，我们要欢迎
从穆斯林地区来的难民，
从穆斯林地区来的难民，
并让他们尽快融入我们的社会。
16:21
those that are coming
from that part of the world.
from that part of the world.
337
969983
2403
16:24
And another thing that I believe
is that to a large extent,
is that to a large extent,
338
972410
3016
另外，我还认为在很大程度上，
欧洲现在是在为其此前
失败的移民融入政策买单。
失败的移民融入政策买单。
16:27
what we are today paying for in Europe
339
975450
2463
16:29
is the failures of integration models
340
977937
2170
16:32
that didn't work in the '60s,
in the '70s, in the '80s,
in the '70s, in the '80s,
341
980131
3141
在上世纪60、70、80年代，
曾有过多次大规模的移民潮，
16:35
in relation to big migration flows
that took place at that time
that took place at that time
342
983296
2971
当时的政策让许多移民的第二代
16:38
and generated what is today
in many of the people, for instance,
in many of the people, for instance,
343
986291
3789
16:42
of the second generation of communities,
344
990104
2743
16:44
a situation of feeling marginalized,
345
992871
4131
在今天陷入一种被边缘化的境地，
他们没有工作，
16:49
having no jobs,
346
997026
1390
没有接收良好的教育，
16:50
having improper education,
347
998440
1539
生活在缺乏基础公共设施的社区里。
16:52
living in some of the neighborhoods
that are not adequately provided
that are not adequately provided
348
1000003
5225
16:57
by public infrastructure.
349
1005252
2242
16:59
And this kind of uneasiness,
sometimes even anger,
sometimes even anger,
350
1007518
4833
第二代移民的这种不安，
甚至是愤怒，
甚至是愤怒，
17:04
that exists in this second generation
351
1012375
2469
主要是由失败的移民融入政策造成的。
17:06
is largely due to the failure
of integration policies,
of integration policies,
352
1014868
3023
政府本应该投入更多力量
为人们创造一个互敬互助的社会环境，
为人们创造一个互敬互助的社会环境，
17:09
to the failure of what should have been
a much stronger investment
a much stronger investment
353
1017915
3881
17:13
in creating the conditions for people
to live together and respect each other.
to live together and respect each other.
354
1021820
4388
但却没有做到。
17:18
For me it is clear.
355
1026232
1308
我深信——
17:19
(Applause)
356
1027564
3241
（掌声）
我深信，未来所有的社会都会是
多种族、多文化、多宗教共存的。
多种族、多文化、多宗教共存的。
17:22
For me it is clear that all societies
will be multiethnic, multicultural,
will be multiethnic, multicultural,
357
1030829
3870
17:26
multi-religious in the future.
358
1034723
1626
想要避免这种趋势，
在我看来，是不可能的。
在我看来，是不可能的。
17:28
To try to avoid it is,
in my opinion, impossible.
in my opinion, impossible.
359
1036666
3238
我觉得这是一件好事，
17:32
And for me it's a good thing
that they will be like that,
that they will be like that,
360
1040420
2900
17:35
but I also recognize that,
for that to work properly,
for that to work properly,
361
1043344
3378
但我知道，要想顺利过渡，
每个社会都需要投入巨大力量
创造其社会凝聚力
创造其社会凝聚力
17:38
you need a huge investment
362
1046746
1956
17:40
in the social cohesion
of your own societies.
of your own societies.
363
1048726
2436
17:43
And Europe, to a large extent,
failed in that investment
failed in that investment
364
1051186
3674
而在过去的几十年间，
在很大程度上，
欧洲社会恰恰没有进行这种投入。
欧洲社会恰恰没有进行这种投入。
17:46
in the past few decades.
365
1054884
3213
17:50
BG: Question: You are stepping down
from your job at the end of the year,
from your job at the end of the year,
366
1058121
3996
布鲁诺：还有个问题，年末您就要退职了，
而您担任此职务已有十年之久。
17:54
after 10 years.
367
1062141
1533
17:55
If you look back at 2005,
368
1063698
1437
如果回顾2005年，
您第一次走进办公室的时候，
您第一次走进办公室的时候，
17:57
when you entered that office
for the first time, what do you see?
for the first time, what do you see?
369
1065159
3075
您有何种感想？
18:01
AG: Well, look:
370
1069491
1855
安东尼奥：好吧，我们来看，
18:04
In 2005, we were helping
one million people go back home
one million people go back home
371
1072466
5377
2005年，我们帮助了100万人重返家园，
让他们重获安稳和尊严，
18:09
in safety and dignity,
because conflicts had ended.
because conflicts had ended.
372
1077867
3048
因为那一年，
许多地区冲突告一段落。
许多地区冲突告一段落。
18:13
Last year, we helped 124,000.
373
1081692
2665
去年，我们仅帮助了12万4千人。
18:17
In 2005, we had about 38 million people
displaced by conflict in the world.
displaced by conflict in the world.
374
1085659
5088
2005年，由于地区冲突而
背井离乡的人大约有3800万，
背井离乡的人大约有3800万，
18:22
Today, we have more than 60 million.
375
1090771
2471
今天，有六千多万。
18:26
At that time, we had had, recently,
376
1094052
3067
在那个时候，我们解决了一些
当时新近产生的冲突。
当时新近产生的冲突。
18:29
some conflicts that were solved.
377
1097143
2679
18:32
Now, we see a multiplication
of new conflicts
of new conflicts
378
1100393
2307
而现在，新的冲突成倍增加，
18:34
and the old conflicts never died:
379
1102724
1841
旧有冲突却依然存在，
18:36
Afghanistan, Somalia,
Democratic Republic of Congo.
Democratic Republic of Congo.
380
1104589
3356
比如阿富汗问题，索马里问题，刚果问题。
18:39
It is clear that the world today
is much more dangerous than it was.
is much more dangerous than it was.
381
1107969
4056
很明显，当今世界更为危险。
18:44
It is clear that the capacity
of the international community
of the international community
382
1112049
2844
很明显，国际社会预防和
及时解决冲突的能力，
及时解决冲突的能力，
18:46
to prevent conflicts
and to timely solve them,
and to timely solve them,
383
1114917
2876
18:49
is, unfortunately, much worse
than what it was 10 years ago.
than what it was 10 years ago.
384
1117817
4154
很遗憾，不及10年前。
世界上还没有任何明确的权力关系
或全球治理机制起作用，
或全球治理机制起作用，
18:53
There are no clear
power relations in the world,
power relations in the world,
385
1121995
2745
18:56
no global governance mechanisms that work,
386
1124764
2493
18:59
which means that we live in a situation
387
1127281
2779
这说明，我们生存的社会
缺乏完善的惩处机制且愈加不可预测，
缺乏完善的惩处机制且愈加不可预测，
19:02
where impunity and unpredictability
tend to prevail, and that means
tend to prevail, and that means
388
1130084
4926
越来越多的人因此遭受苦难，
19:07
that more and more people suffer,
389
1135034
2415
特别是那些因地区冲突而离开家园的人。
19:09
namely those that are
displaced by conflicts.
displaced by conflicts.
390
1137473
2393
19:11
BG: It's a tradition in American politics
391
1139890
2006
布鲁诺：美国政治中有一个传统，
19:13
that when a President leaves
the Oval Office for the last time,
the Oval Office for the last time,
392
1141920
3630
上任总统最后离开总统办公室的时候，
会在办公桌上
给几个小时后走进办公室的继任者
给几个小时后走进办公室的继任者
19:17
he leaves a handwritten note
on the desk for his successor
on the desk for his successor
393
1145574
2777
19:20
that walks in a couple of hours later.
394
1148375
2101
留下一张手写的便条。
如果让您给您的继任者菲利普·格兰迪
写一张这样的便条，
写一张这样的便条，
19:22
If you had to write such a note
to your successor, Filippo Grandi,
to your successor, Filippo Grandi,
395
1150500
3185
您会写些什么呢？
19:25
what would you write?
396
1153709
1152
19:26
AG: Well, I don't think
I would write any message.
I would write any message.
397
1154885
3064
安东尼奥：我想我什么都不会写。
19:29
You know, one of the terrible things
when one leaves an office
when one leaves an office
398
1157973
2975
你知道，离任者总想对继任者的工作指手画脚，
19:32
is to try to become the backseat driver,
399
1160972
2730
告诉他们应该怎样做。
19:35
always telling the new one what to do.
400
1163726
2887
这不太好。
19:38
So that, I will not do.
401
1166637
1516
所以我不会这么做。
19:40
If I had to say something to him,
402
1168177
1944
如果让我对他说点儿什么，
19:42
it would be, "Be yourself,
and do your best."
and do your best."
403
1170145
2277
我会告诉他：“坚守本心，全力以赴。”
19:44
BG: Commissioner, thank you
for the job you do.
for the job you do.
404
1172753
2246
布鲁诺：专员，感谢您所做的工作。
感谢您来TED演讲。
19:47
Thank you for coming to TED.
405
1175023
1505
（掌声)
19:48
(Applause)
406
1176552
4342
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
António Guterres - Designate Secretary-General of the United NationsAntónio Guterres is at the forefront of advocating for refugee rights around the world.
Why you should listen
A former Portuguese prime minister, António Guterres was elected by the UN General Assembly to become the 10th United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in June 2005. In October 2016 the United Nations Security Council announced he would be the next United Nations Secretary General, succeeding the retiring Ban Ki-moon.
As High Commissioner, he heads one of the world's foremost humanitarian organizations. UNHCR has twice won the Nobel Peace Prize. Its over 9,300 staff members work in 123 countries providing protection and assistance to nearly 55 million refugees, returnees, internally displaced people and stateless persons. Some 88 percent of UNHCR staff work in the field, often in difficult and dangerous duty stations.
Before joining UNHCR, Guterres spent more than 20 years in government and public service. He served as Portuguese prime minister from 1995 to 2002, during which time he was heavily involved in the international effort to resolve the crisis in East Timor. As president of the European Council in early 2000, he led the adoption of the so-called Lisbon Agenda and co-chaired the first European Union-Africa summit. He also founded the Portuguese Refugee Council in 1991 and was part of the Council of State of Portugal from 1991 to 2002.
From 1981 to 1983, Guterres was a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, as well as chairman of the Committee on Demography, Migration and Refugees. In addition, he has been active in Socialist International, a worldwide organization of social democratic political parties. He was the group's vice-president from 1992 to 1999 and president from 1999 until mid-2005.
Guterres was born on April 30, 1949, in Lisbon and educated at the Instituto Superior Técnico, where he remains a visiting professor. He is married and has two children.
António Guterres | Speaker | TED.com