TED@BCG Toronto
Julia Dhar: How to disagree productively and find common ground
朱莉亚 · 达尔: 如何有效地求同存异
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有时候，我感觉我们唯一能达成一致的事，就是我们无法达成一致——在任何事上。朱莉亚 · 达尔利用她作为世界辩论冠军的背景，向我们提供了三种改变我们和别人交谈方式的技巧，以此来达到在任何情况下都能有效地求同存异的目的——无论是家庭晚宴，工作会议还是全国性对话。
Julia Dhar - Business strategist, champion debater
BCG's Julia Dhar is a champion of ideas, facts and constructive disagreement. Full bio
BCG's Julia Dhar is a champion of ideas, facts and constructive disagreement. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Some days, it feels like
the only thing we can agree on
the only thing we can agree on
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有时候，我感觉我们
唯一能达成一致的事，
唯一能达成一致的事，
00:16
is that we can't agree on anything.
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就是无法在任何事上达成一致。
00:20
Public discourse is broken.
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公共讨论已经一团糟了。
00:23
And we feel that everywhere --
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我们会发现这样的场景无处不在——
00:24
panelists on TV
are screaming at each other,
are screaming at each other,
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电视上的辩手们互相大喊大叫，
00:27
we go online to find
community and connection,
community and connection,
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我们上网寻找（与自己立场相同的）
社区，试图与他人建立联系，
社区，试图与他人建立联系，
00:30
and we end up leaving
feeling angry and alienated.
feeling angry and alienated.
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却常常在愤怒和孤立感中下线。
00:34
In everyday life, probably
because everyone else is yelling,
because everyone else is yelling,
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在日常生活中，
可能因为别人都在大喊大叫，
可能因为别人都在大喊大叫，
00:38
we are so scared to get into an argument
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我们变得特别害怕去辩论，
00:41
that we're willing not to engage at all.
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一点也不想参与其中。
00:44
Contempt has replaced conversation.
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蔑视代替了交流。
00:49
My mission in life is to help us
disagree productively.
disagree productively.
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我的人生使命是帮助大家
有效地提出不同意见。
有效地提出不同意见。
00:54
To find ways to bring truth to light,
to bring new ideas to life.
to bring new ideas to life.
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找到揭露真相的办法，
给生活提供新的见解。
给生活提供新的见解。
01:00
I think -- I hope --
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我认为——或者说我希望——
01:02
that there is a model
for structured disagreement
for structured disagreement
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会有一个结构清晰的争论模式，
那种相互尊重，
01:04
that's kind of mutually respectful
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带有说服或被说服愿望的真诚立场。
01:08
and assumes a genuine desire
to persuade and be persuaded.
to persuade and be persuaded.
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01:12
And to uncover it,
let me take you back a little bit.
let me take you back a little bit.
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为了说明白这点，
让我带你们追溯一下过去。
让我带你们追溯一下过去。
01:16
So, when I was 10 years old,
I loved arguing.
I loved arguing.
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我10岁时，特别爱与人争论。
01:21
This, like, tantalizing possibility
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对我来说，这是一种诱人的可能性，
仅凭语言的力量，
01:23
that you could convince someone
of your point of view,
of your point of view,
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01:26
just with the power of your words.
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你就能说服别人接受你的观点。
01:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly,
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也许是意料之中，
01:31
my parents and teachers
loved this somewhat less.
loved this somewhat less.
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我的父母和老师们
都不怎么喜欢争论。
都不怎么喜欢争论。
（笑声）
01:35
(Laughter)
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01:36
And in much the same way as they decided
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就跟他们觉得
四岁的朱莉亚通过体操
燃烧一些能量有好处一样，
燃烧一些能量有好处一样，
01:38
that four-year-old Julia might benefit
from gymnastics to burn off some energy,
from gymnastics to burn off some energy,
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01:42
they decided that I might benefit
from joining a debate team.
from joining a debate team.
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他们觉得我加入
辩论队可能也有好处。
辩论队可能也有好处。
意思就是，到他们不在的
地方争论去吧。
地方争论去吧。
01:45
That is, kind of, go somewhere
to argue where they were not.
to argue where they were not.
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01:49
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
对于门外汉来说，
01:51
For the uninitiated,
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一场正式辩论的前提非常直观：
01:53
the premises of formal debate
are really straightforward:
are really straightforward:
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台面上有个大的议题——
01:55
there's a big idea on the table --
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比如我们支持非暴力反抗活动，
我们青睐自由贸易——
我们青睐自由贸易——
01:57
that we support civil disobedience,
that we favor free trade --
that we favor free trade --
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02:02
and one group of people
who speaks in favor of that idea,
who speaks in favor of that idea,
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有一组人支持这个观点，
另一拨人则反对。
02:05
and one against.
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02:08
My first debate
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我的第一次辩论
02:09
in the cavernous auditorium
of Canberra Girls Grammar School
of Canberra Girls Grammar School
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是在堪培拉女子文法学校的
圆形礼堂里进行的，
圆形礼堂里进行的，
02:12
was kind of a bundle
of all of the worst mistakes
of all of the worst mistakes
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那次辩论我犯了
你们能在有线电视新闻上
你们能在有线电视新闻上
02:16
that you see on cable news.
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看到的各种糟糕错误。
我当时觉得攻击持有论点的人
02:18
It felt easier to me to attack
the person making the argument
the person making the argument
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02:22
rather than the substance
of the ideas themselves.
of the ideas themselves.
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比攻击论点的本质要简单得多。
02:25
When that same person challenged my ideas,
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当同一个人再次挑战我的观点时，
那种感觉特别糟糕，我感到
被羞辱了，简直无地自容。
被羞辱了，简直无地自容。
02:29
it felt terrible, I felt
humiliated and ashamed.
humiliated and ashamed.
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02:33
And it felt to me like
the sophisticated response to that
the sophisticated response to that
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它让我感觉到最精妙的反驳方式
02:36
was to be as extreme as possible.
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是尽可能的极端。
02:40
And despite this very shaky entry
into the world of debate, I loved it.
into the world of debate, I loved it.
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尽管我硬着头皮走进了
辩论的世界，却开始入迷了。
辩论的世界，却开始入迷了。
02:45
I saw the possibility, and over many years
worked really hard at it,
worked really hard at it,
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我看到了那种可能性，我努力了很多年，
02:50
became really skilled
at the technical craft of debate.
at the technical craft of debate.
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掌握了娴熟的辩论技巧。
02:54
I went on to win the World Schools
Debating Championships three times.
Debating Championships three times.
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我赢得了三次世界校园辩论赛的冠军。
02:58
I know, you're just finding out
that this is a thing.
that this is a thing.
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我看得出来，你们压根儿
不知道还有这么个比赛。
不知道还有这么个比赛。
03:00
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
03:04
But it wasn't until
I started coaching debaters,
I started coaching debaters,
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但直到我开始培训那些
在他们领域中具备顶尖实力的
辩手和说服者时，
辩手和说服者时，
03:07
persuaders who are really
at the top of their game,
at the top of their game,
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03:11
that I actually got it.
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我才真正认识到，
03:13
The way that you reach people
is by finding common ground.
is by finding common ground.
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接触他人的方式是寻找共同立场。
03:18
It's by separating ideas from identity
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这是通过区别对待观点和身份，
并真诚开放接受说服来实现的。
03:21
and being genuinely open to persuasion.
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03:24
Debate is a way to organize conversations
about how the world is, could, should be.
about how the world is, could, should be.
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通过辩论的方式，可以组织世界是什么，
可能是什么，应该是什么的对话。
可能是什么，应该是什么的对话。
03:32
Or to put it another way,
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或者换一种方法说，
我很乐意分享我的亲身经验，
03:33
I would love to offer you
my experience-backed,
my experience-backed,
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03:37
evidence-tested guide
to talking to your cousin about politics
to talking to your cousin about politics
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经过实践检验的指导方案，
来教你在下一次的家庭晚宴中
来教你在下一次的家庭晚宴中
和你的表兄妹谈谈政治；
03:40
at your next family dinner;
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重新组织你们团队讨论新提案的方式；
03:42
reorganizing the way in which your team
debates new proposals;
debates new proposals;
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03:46
thinking about how we change
our public conversation.
our public conversation.
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想想该如何改变我们的公共交流方式。
03:50
And so, as an entry point into that:
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那么，我们先要找到一个切入点：
03:52
debate requires that we engage
with the conflicting idea,
with the conflicting idea,
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辩论要求我们直截了当
而不失礼貌，面对面地
而不失礼貌，面对面地
03:57
directly, respectfully, face to face.
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直面相互冲突的观点。
04:01
The foundation of debate is rebuttal.
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辩论的基础是反驳。
04:03
The idea that you make a claim
and I provide a response,
and I provide a response,
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就是你发表论点然后我回复，
然后你再对我的回复作出应对。
04:07
and you respond to my response.
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04:10
Without rebuttal, it's not debate,
it's just pontificating.
it's just pontificating.
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如果没有反驳，那不叫辩论，
那只能叫自说自话。
那只能叫自说自话。
04:14
And I had originally imagined
that the most successful debaters,
that the most successful debaters,
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我一开始曾想象过
那些最成功的辩手们，
那些最成功的辩手们，
最出色的说客们，
04:18
really excellent persuaders,
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04:20
must be great at going to extremes.
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都一定特别擅长走向极端。
04:24
They must have some magical ability
to make the polarizing palatable.
to make the polarizing palatable.
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他们一定有某种令极端观点
变得可以接受的神奇能力。
变得可以接受的神奇能力。
04:31
And it took me a really
long time to figure out
long time to figure out
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我花了很长的时间才想通，
04:34
that the opposite is actually true.
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事实其实恰恰相反。
04:38
People who disagree the most productively
start by finding common ground,
start by finding common ground,
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最富有成效地提出异议的人，
通常都是从寻找共同立场开始的，
通常都是从寻找共同立场开始的，
04:43
no matter how narrow it is.
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无论共同立场是多么的小。
他们首先找出来我们都认同的事情，
04:45
They identify the thing
that we can all agree on
that we can all agree on
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然后以此为出发点：
04:48
and go from there:
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04:50
the right to an education,
equality between all people,
equality between all people,
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受教育的权利，全人类的平等，
04:55
the importance of safer communities.
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一个更安全社区的重要性。
04:58
What they're doing is inviting us
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他们正在我们带到如
04:59
into what psychologists
call shared reality.
call shared reality.
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心理学家所说的“共享现实”中去。
05:04
And shared reality
is the antidote to alternative facts.
is the antidote to alternative facts.
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而共享现实正是另类事实的解药。
05:10
The conflict, of course, is still there.
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当然，冲突仍然存在。
05:13
That's why it's a debate.
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所以它才叫做辩论。
05:15
Shared reality just gives us
a platform to start to talk about it.
a platform to start to talk about it.
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共享现实给了我们一个谈论它的平台。
05:20
But the trick of debate
is that you end up doing it directly,
is that you end up doing it directly,
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但辩论的诀窍在于
你最终得通过直接讨论，
你最终得通过直接讨论，
05:24
face to face, across the table.
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面对面，在台面上来实现。
05:26
And research backs up
that that really matters.
that that really matters.
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研究发现也证明这点非常关键。
加州大学伯克利分校的教授
朱丽安娜 · 施罗德和同事的
朱丽安娜 · 施罗德和同事的
05:30
Professor Juliana Schroeder
at UC Berkeley and her colleagues
at UC Berkeley and her colleagues
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05:34
have research that suggests
that listening to someone's voice
that listening to someone's voice
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研究表明，在人们提出有争议的观点时，
倾听他们的声音
05:38
as they make a controversial argument
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是人性化的过程。
05:40
is literally humanizing.
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05:42
It makes it easier to engage
with what that person has to say.
with what that person has to say.
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这会让你更容易理解对方要说的话。
05:47
So, step away from the keyboards,
start conversing.
start conversing.
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所以，现在请远离键盘，
开始和别人交流。
开始和别人交流。
05:52
And if we are to expand
that notion a little bit,
that notion a little bit,
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如果我们把这个观点扩展开来，
05:54
nothing is stopping us from pressing pause
on a parade of keynote speeches,
on a parade of keynote speeches,
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没什么能阻止我们
在一系列主题演讲中，
在一系列主题演讲中，
在有礼貌的小组讨论中按下暂停键，
06:01
the sequence of very polite
panel discussions,
panel discussions,
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并用一场结构分明的
辩论来替代它们。
辩论来替代它们。
06:05
and replacing some of that
with a structured debate.
with a structured debate.
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06:09
All of our conferences could have,
at their centerpiece,
at their centerpiece,
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我们所有的会议都可以有意识地
06:12
a debate over the biggest,
most controversial ideas in the field.
most controversial ideas in the field.
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对该领域中最大、
最具争议的观点展开辩论。
最具争议的观点展开辩论。
06:17
Each of our weekly team meetings
could devote 10 minutes
could devote 10 minutes
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我们每周的小组会议
都可以拿出十分钟
都可以拿出十分钟
06:21
to a debate about a proposal to change
the way in which that team works.
the way in which that team works.
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来辩论一个改变团队
运作方式的提议。
运作方式的提议。
06:26
And as innovative ideas go,
this one is both easy and free.
this one is both easy and free.
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随着创新的点子不断涌现，
这种方法不仅方便，还不费钱，
这种方法不仅方便，还不费钱，
你甚至可以明天起就这么干。
06:31
You could start tomorrow.
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（笑声）
06:33
(Laughter)
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06:34
And once we're inside this shared reality,
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一旦我们进入了共享现实的层面，
06:37
debate also requires
that we separate ideas
that we separate ideas
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辩论也要求我们将观点
从提出观点的人的身份中分离出来。
06:41
from the identity
of the person discussing them.
of the person discussing them.
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所以在一场正式的辩论中，
只有有争议性的东西才能成为话题：
只有有争议性的东西才能成为话题：
06:45
So in formal debate, nothing is a topic
unless it is controversial:
unless it is controversial:
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06:49
that we should raise
the voting age, outlaw gambling.
the voting age, outlaw gambling.
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比如我们应该提升选民年龄，
禁止非法赌博。
禁止非法赌博。
06:54
But the debaters don't choose their sides.
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但是辩手们并不选择自己的立场。
这就是为什么那个10岁的
朱莉亚做的事情毫无意义。
朱莉亚做的事情毫无意义。
06:58
So that's why it makes no sense
to do what 10-year-old Julia did.
to do what 10-year-old Julia did.
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07:02
Attacking the identity of the person
making the argument is irrelevant,
making the argument is irrelevant,
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攻击参与争论的人的身份
和辩论并不相干，
和辩论并不相干，
因为他们无权选择自己的立场。
07:07
because they didn't choose it.
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07:09
Your only winning strategy
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你唯一获胜的策略
07:12
is to engage with the best, clearest,
least personal version of the idea.
least personal version of the idea.
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就是去和最好，最清晰，
最客观的观点直接交锋。
最客观的观点直接交锋。
07:20
And it might sound impossible
or naive to imagine
or naive to imagine
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这听起来可能有点不现实，
或者说有点幼稚，去想象
或者说有点幼稚，去想象
07:24
that you could ever take that notion
outside the high school auditorium.
outside the high school auditorium.
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你能把这种想法带出高中礼堂。
07:28
We spend so much time dismissing ideas
as democrat or republican.
as democrat or republican.
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我们花了太多时间来驳斥
民主党或共和党人的观点。
民主党或共和党人的观点。
07:35
Rejecting proposals
because they came from headquarters,
because they came from headquarters,
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拒绝提议只是因为这是来自总部，
07:38
or from a region
that we think is not like ours.
that we think is not like ours.
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或是来自一个我们认为
跟我们不同地方。
跟我们不同地方。
07:42
But it is possible.
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但这是可能的。
07:44
When I work with teams,
trying to come up with the next big idea,
trying to come up with the next big idea,
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当我和团队一起工作，
要想出一个什么新点子，
要想出一个什么新点子，
或是解决一个极其复杂的问题时，
07:48
or solve a really complex problem,
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07:51
I start by asking them, all of them,
to submit ideas anonymously.
to submit ideas anonymously.
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我会让他们所有人匿名提交观点。
07:57
So by way of illustration, two years ago,
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例如，两年前，
07:59
I was working with multiple
government agencies
government agencies
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我和多个政府部门一起在考虑
08:02
to generate new solutions
to reduce long-term unemployment.
to reduce long-term unemployment.
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解决长期失业问题的新的方案。
08:06
Which is one of those really wicked,
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这也是极其难缠，棘手，
08:08
sticky, well-studied
public policy problems.
public policy problems.
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以及早已经被研究透了的
公共政策问题之一。
公共政策问题之一。
08:12
So exactly as I described,
right at the beginning,
right at the beginning,
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和我之前说的一样，在开始的时候，
08:15
potential solutions were captured
from everywhere.
from everywhere.
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可能的解决方案
都是从各处搜集来的。
都是从各处搜集来的。
08:18
We aggregated them,
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我们把它们收集到一起，
每一个方案都按照相同的模版呈现。
08:20
each of them was produced
on an identical template.
on an identical template.
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在这一点上，它们看起来
都是一样的，没什么明显的不同。
都是一样的，没什么明显的不同。
08:23
At this point, they all look the same,
they have no separate identity.
they have no separate identity.
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08:27
And then, of course,
they are discussed, picked over,
they are discussed, picked over,
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当然，随后会它们被挑出来讨论，
提炼，最终审定。
08:31
refined, finalized.
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08:33
And at the end of that process,
more than 20 of those new ideas
more than 20 of those new ideas
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在这个过程的末尾，
二十多个新的点子
二十多个新的点子
08:36
are presented to the cabinet ministers
responsible for consideration.
responsible for consideration.
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都呈送到了负责决策的
内阁大臣们面前。
内阁大臣们面前。
08:41
But more than half of those,
the originator of those ideas
the originator of those ideas
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但其中超过半数的点子，它们的创作者
曾经都是在政策顾问面前
连话都说不上的人。
连话都说不上的人。
08:47
was someone who might have a hard time
getting the ear of a policy advisor.
getting the ear of a policy advisor.
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08:52
Or who, because of their identity,
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或者一些由于身份卑微，
08:53
might not be taken
entirely seriously if they did.
entirely seriously if they did.
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其观点从来没有被当作一回事的人。
那些接电话的职员，管理日程表的助理，
08:57
Folks who answer the phones,
assistants who manage calendars,
assistants who manage calendars,
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09:01
representatives from agencies
who weren't always trusted.
who weren't always trusted.
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来自不总是被信任的机构的代表。
09:07
Imagine if our news media
did the same thing.
did the same thing.
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想想如果我们的新闻媒体
干过的同样事情会如何。
干过的同样事情会如何。
那场景几乎历历在目——
本周的有线电视新闻时段
本周的有线电视新闻时段
09:09
You can kind of see it now --
a weekly cable news segment
a weekly cable news segment
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09:13
with a big policy proposal on the table
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有一份重要的政策提议在台面上，
也不知道来自自由党派还是保守党派。
09:15
that doesn't call it
liberal or conservative.
liberal or conservative.
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09:19
Or a series of op-eds
for and against a big idea
for and against a big idea
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或者是对某个观点提出
一连串支持或反对的观点，
一连串支持或反对的观点，
09:25
that don't tell you
where the writers worked.
where the writers worked.
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也不会告诉你其作者在哪里工作。
09:28
Our public conversations,
even our private disagreements,
even our private disagreements,
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我们的公众对话，
甚至是我们的个人异见，
甚至是我们的个人异见，
09:32
can be transformed by debating ideas,
rather than discussing identity.
rather than discussing identity.
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都可以通过辩论观点来转换，
而不是讨论身份立场。
而不是讨论身份立场。
09:40
And then, the thing that debate
allows us to do as human beings
allows us to do as human beings
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作为人类，辩论还让我们能够
09:43
is open ourselves,
really open ourselves up
really open ourselves up
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真正开放自己的心态，
去接受我们犯了错误的可能。
09:47
to the possibility that we might be wrong.
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09:50
The humility of uncertainty.
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对不确定性的谦逊。
09:54
One of the reasons it is so hard
to disagree productively
to disagree productively
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难以有效地进行争执的原因之一
就是我们常常执着于自己的意见。
09:58
is because we become
attached to our ideas.
attached to our ideas.
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10:01
We start to believe that we own them
and that by extension, they own us.
and that by extension, they own us.
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我们开始认为我们拥有它们，
延伸开去就是，它们拥有我们。
延伸开去就是，它们拥有我们。
10:08
But eventually, if you debate long enough,
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但最终，如果你辩论的时间够长，
你的立场就会改变，
10:11
you will switch sides,
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10:12
you'll argue for and against
the expansion of the welfare state.
the expansion of the welfare state.
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你会在扩大国家福利的
争论中不停变换立场。
争论中不停变换立场。
也会赞同或反对强制投票。
10:16
For and against compulsory voting.
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10:19
And that exercise
flips a kind of cognitive switch.
flips a kind of cognitive switch.
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这种训练会颠覆你的认知转换。
10:24
The suspicions that you hold
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你对那些
10:26
about people who espouse beliefs
that you don't have, starts to evaporate.
that you don't have, starts to evaporate.
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不同信仰的人所持有的
疑虑就会开始消失。
疑虑就会开始消失。
因为你已经可以
站在他们的角度思考了。
站在他们的角度思考了。
10:31
Because you can imagine yourself
stepping into those shoes.
stepping into those shoes.
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10:35
And as you're stepping into those,
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而当你站在他们的角度思考时，
你就是在接受不确定性带来的谦逊，
10:37
you're embracing
the humility of uncertainty.
the humility of uncertainty.
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也是在接受犯错的可能性。
10:40
The possibility of being wrong.
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10:43
And it's that exact humility
that makes us better decision-makers.
that makes us better decision-makers.
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正是那种谦逊让我们
成为了更好的决策者。
成为了更好的决策者。
10:48
Neuroscientist and psychologist Mark Leary
at Duke University and his colleagues
at Duke University and his colleagues
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杜克大学的神经学家以及心理学家
马克 · 里亚利和他的同事
马克 · 里亚利和他的同事
10:53
have found that people
who are able to practice --
who are able to practice --
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发现那些能够实践这些的人——
10:55
and it is a skill --
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这是一种技能——
也就是研究者称为大智若愚的人，
10:57
what those researchers call
intellectual humility
intellectual humility
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拥有广泛评估不同证据的能力，
11:00
are more capable of evaluating
a broad range of evidence,
a broad range of evidence,
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他们在评估时也会更加客观，
11:04
are more objective when they do so,
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11:06
and become less defensive
when confronted with conflicting evidence.
when confronted with conflicting evidence.
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在面对冲突证据时
也不会摆出防御的姿态。
也不会摆出防御的姿态。
11:11
All attributes that we want in our bosses,
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这些正是所有我们希望我们的老板，
11:14
colleagues, discussion partners,
decision-makers,
decision-makers,
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同事，共同讨论的搭档
以及决策者都具有的美德，
以及决策者都具有的美德，
11:17
all virtues that we would like
to claim for ourselves.
to claim for ourselves.
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所有我们想要自己拥有的美德。
11:22
And so, as we're embracing
that humility of uncertainty,
that humility of uncertainty,
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所以，当我们拥抱
这种不确定性的谦逊时，
这种不确定性的谦逊时，
所有人都应该彼此问这样一个问题。
11:26
we should be asking each other,
all of us, a question.
all of us, a question.
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11:30
Our debate moderators, our news anchors
should be asking it
should be asking it
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我们辩论节目的主持，
以及新闻主播都应该问
以及新闻主播都应该问
我们的普选代表以及候选议员，
11:34
of our elective representatives
and candidates for office, too.
and candidates for office, too.
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11:38
"What is it that you have changed
your mind about and why?"
your mind about and why?"
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“你改变了什么主意，为什么改变主意？”
11:44
"What uncertainty are you humble about?"
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“你对什么事情的不确定性保持谦逊？”
11:50
And this by the way, isn't some fantasy
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顺便一提，这不是什么
11:52
about how public life
and public conversations could work.
and public conversations could work.
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关于公共生活以及
公众对话如何运作的幻想。
公众对话如何运作的幻想。
11:56
It has precedent.
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这是有先例的。
11:57
So, in 1969,
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在1969年，
11:59
beloved American children's
television presenter Mister Rogers
television presenter Mister Rogers
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著名的美国儿童电视节目
主持人罗杰斯先生
主持人罗杰斯先生
12:03
sits impaneled
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坐在由看起来
12:05
before the United States congressional
subcommittee on communications,
subcommittee on communications,
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特别乖戾的约翰 · 帕斯托尔主持的
美国国会通信小组委员会面前。
12:08
chaired by the seemingly very
curmudgeonly John Pastore.
curmudgeonly John Pastore.
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12:13
And Mister Rogers is there
to make a kind of classic debate case,
to make a kind of classic debate case,
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罗杰斯先生在这里要做一个经典辩论，
一个非常大胆的提议：
12:16
a really bold proposal:
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12:18
an increase in federal funding
for public broadcasting.
for public broadcasting.
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提高公共电视广播节目的
联邦政府拨款。
联邦政府拨款。
12:23
And at the outset,
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一开始，
纪律委员会参议员
帕斯托尔没有准许通过。
帕斯托尔没有准许通过。
12:25
committee disciplinarian
Senator Pastore is not having it.
Senator Pastore is not having it.
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这都差点就成为
罗杰斯先生可怜的结局了。
罗杰斯先生可怜的结局了。
12:27
This is about to end
really poorly for Mister Rogers.
really poorly for Mister Rogers.
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12:31
But patiently, very reasonably,
Mister Rogers makes the case
Mister Rogers makes the case
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但凭着耐心，理智，罗杰斯先生解释了
为什么高质量的儿童节目，
12:37
why good quality children's broadcasting,
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那些讲述出现在多数普通家庭中的
12:40
the kinds of television programs
that talk about the drama that arises
that talk about the drama that arises
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奇闻逸事的电视节目，
12:44
in the most ordinary of families,
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对我们所有人都至关重要。
12:47
matters to all of us.
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即便它需要花费成本。
12:49
Even while it costs us.
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12:51
He invites us into a shared reality.
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他把我们带入到了共享现实的层面。
12:55
And on the other side of that table,
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而在辩论的另一方，
帕斯托尔参议员在聆听，并用心去思考。
12:57
Senator Pastore listens,
engages and opens his mind.
engages and opens his mind.
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13:05
Out loud, in public, on the record.
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参议员大声地，公开地，在录音的情况下，
13:10
And Senator Pastore
says to Mister Rogers,
says to Mister Rogers,
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对罗杰斯先生说：
“要知道，我本来是个相当固执的人，
13:13
"You know, I'm supposed to be
a pretty tough guy,
a pretty tough guy,
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13:15
and this is the first time
I've had goosebumps in two days."
I've had goosebumps in two days."
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但这是两天来我第一次起鸡皮疙瘩。”
13:19
And then, later, "It looks like you
just earned the 20 million dollars."
just earned the 20 million dollars."
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然后，他又说，”看起来你
赢得了两千万美元。”
赢得了两千万美元。”
13:26
We need many more Mister Rogers.
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我们需要更多像罗杰斯先生一样的人。
13:29
People with the technical skills
of debate and persuasion.
of debate and persuasion.
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需要更多拥有辩论和说服技巧的人。
13:33
But on the other side of that table,
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但在辩论桌的另一边，
13:35
we need many, many,
many more Senator Pastores.
many more Senator Pastores.
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我们也需要很多，甚至更多
像帕斯托尔参议员一样的人。
像帕斯托尔参议员一样的人。
13:41
And the magic of debate
is that it lets you, it empowers you
is that it lets you, it empowers you
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辩论的魔力在于它能够
让你，赋予你力量，
让你，赋予你力量，
同时成为罗杰斯先生
和帕斯托尔议员一样的人。
和帕斯托尔议员一样的人。
13:45
to be both Mister Rogers
and Senator Pastore simultaneously.
and Senator Pastore simultaneously.
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13:51
When I work with those same teams
that we talked about before,
that we talked about before,
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当我和那些我们之前
说过的团队一起工作时，
说过的团队一起工作时，
13:54
I ask them at the outset to pre-commit
to the possibility of being wrong.
to the possibility of being wrong.
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我请求他们用最长远的考虑
去承认出错的可能性。
去承认出错的可能性。
14:00
To explain to me and to each other
what it would take to change their minds.
what it would take to change their minds.
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让他们向我以及其他每一个人
解释如何能让他们改变主意。
解释如何能让他们改变主意。
14:05
And that's all about the attitude,
not the exercise.
not the exercise.
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这都是态度的问题，而非实践。
14:09
Once you start thinking about
what it would take to change your mind,
what it would take to change your mind,
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一旦你开始思考什么会让你改变主意，
14:12
you start to wonder why
you were quite so sure in the first place.
you were quite so sure in the first place.
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你就会开始想为什么
你一开始会如此确信。
你一开始会如此确信。
14:17
There is so much
that the practice of debate
that the practice of debate
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有很多辩论的实践
教我们如何去有效地争论。
14:21
has to offer us
for how to disagree productively.
for how to disagree productively.
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14:24
And we should bring it to our workplaces,
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我们应该把这些方法带到工作中，
14:27
our conferences,
our city council meetings.
our city council meetings.
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带到会议中，
以及我们的市参议会中。
以及我们的市参议会中。
14:30
And the principles of debate can transform
the way that we talk to one another,
the way that we talk to one another,
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辩论的原则能够改变
我们彼此交流的方式，
我们彼此交流的方式，
14:35
to empower us to stop talking
and to start listening.
and to start listening.
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能够让我们停止说话，开始聆听。
14:40
To stop dismissing
and to start persuading.
and to start persuading.
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停止拒绝，开始说服。
14:44
To stop shutting down
and to start opening our minds.
and to start opening our minds.
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停止自我封闭，
并开始开放自己的思维。
并开始开放自己的思维。
14:48
Thank you so much.
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非常感谢大家。
14:50
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julia Dhar - Business strategist, champion debaterBCG's Julia Dhar is a champion of ideas, facts and constructive disagreement.
Why you should listen
Julia Dhar won the World Schools Debate Championships three times, coached the New Zealand Schools' debating team to their first world debate championship win in 14 years and coached the Harvard University debate team to two world championships. Dhar co-founded and leads BeSmart, the Boston Consulting Group's Behavioral Economics and Insights initiative. She works globally to build organizations and societies that are more inclusive, generous and productive. Her book, The Decision Maker's Playbook: 12 Tactics for Thinking Clearly, Navigating Uncertainty, and Making Smarter Choices (with Simon Mueller), is set to be published by the Financial Times in 2019.
Julia Dhar | Speaker | TED.com