TED@BCG Toronto
Julia Dhar: How to disagree productively and find common ground
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Some days, it feels like the only thing we can agree on is that we can't agree -- on anything. Drawing on her background as a world debate champion, Julia Dhar offers three techniques to reshape the way we talk to each other so we can start disagreeing productively and finding common ground -- over family dinners, during work meetings and in our national conversations.
Julia Dhar - Business strategist, champion debater
BCG's Julia Dhar is a champion of ideas, facts and constructive disagreement. Full bio
BCG's Julia Dhar is a champion of ideas, facts and constructive disagreement. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Some days, it feels like
the only thing we can agree on
the only thing we can agree on
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is that we can't agree on anything.
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Public discourse is broken.
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And we feel that everywhere --
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panelists on TV
are screaming at each other,
are screaming at each other,
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we go online to find
community and connection,
community and connection,
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and we end up leaving
feeling angry and alienated.
feeling angry and alienated.
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In everyday life, probably
because everyone else is yelling,
because everyone else is yelling,
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we are so scared to get into an argument
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that we're willing not to engage at all.
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Contempt has replaced conversation.
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My mission in life is to help us
disagree productively.
disagree productively.
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To find ways to bring truth to light,
to bring new ideas to life.
to bring new ideas to life.
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I think -- I hope --
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that there is a model
for structured disagreement
for structured disagreement
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that's kind of mutually respectful
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and assumes a genuine desire
to persuade and be persuaded.
to persuade and be persuaded.
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And to uncover it,
let me take you back a little bit.
let me take you back a little bit.
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So, when I was 10 years old,
I loved arguing.
I loved arguing.
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This, like, tantalizing possibility
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that you could convince someone
of your point of view,
of your point of view,
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just with the power of your words.
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And perhaps unsurprisingly,
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my parents and teachers
loved this somewhat less.
loved this somewhat less.
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(Laughter)
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And in much the same way as they decided
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that four-year-old Julia might benefit
from gymnastics to burn off some energy,
from gymnastics to burn off some energy,
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they decided that I might benefit
from joining a debate team.
from joining a debate team.
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That is, kind of, go somewhere
to argue where they were not.
to argue where they were not.
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(Laughter)
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For the uninitiated,
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the premises of formal debate
are really straightforward:
are really straightforward:
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there's a big idea on the table --
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that we support civil disobedience,
that we favor free trade --
that we favor free trade --
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and one group of people
who speaks in favor of that idea,
who speaks in favor of that idea,
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and one against.
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My first debate
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in the cavernous auditorium
of Canberra Girls Grammar School
of Canberra Girls Grammar School
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was kind of a bundle
of all of the worst mistakes
of all of the worst mistakes
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that you see on cable news.
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It felt easier to me to attack
the person making the argument
the person making the argument
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rather than the substance
of the ideas themselves.
of the ideas themselves.
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When that same person challenged my ideas,
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it felt terrible, I felt
humiliated and ashamed.
humiliated and ashamed.
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And it felt to me like
the sophisticated response to that
the sophisticated response to that
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was to be as extreme as possible.
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And despite this very shaky entry
into the world of debate, I loved it.
into the world of debate, I loved it.
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I saw the possibility, and over many years
worked really hard at it,
worked really hard at it,
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became really skilled
at the technical craft of debate.
at the technical craft of debate.
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I went on to win the World Schools
Debating Championships three times.
Debating Championships three times.
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I know, you're just finding out
that this is a thing.
that this is a thing.
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(Laughter)
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But it wasn't until
I started coaching debaters,
I started coaching debaters,
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persuaders who are really
at the top of their game,
at the top of their game,
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that I actually got it.
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The way that you reach people
is by finding common ground.
is by finding common ground.
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It's by separating ideas from identity
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and being genuinely open to persuasion.
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Debate is a way to organize conversations
about how the world is, could, should be.
about how the world is, could, should be.
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Or to put it another way,
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I would love to offer you
my experience-backed,
my experience-backed,
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evidence-tested guide
to talking to your cousin about politics
to talking to your cousin about politics
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at your next family dinner;
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reorganizing the way in which your team
debates new proposals;
debates new proposals;
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thinking about how we change
our public conversation.
our public conversation.
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And so, as an entry point into that:
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debate requires that we engage
with the conflicting idea,
with the conflicting idea,
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directly, respectfully, face to face.
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The foundation of debate is rebuttal.
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The idea that you make a claim
and I provide a response,
and I provide a response,
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and you respond to my response.
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Without rebuttal, it's not debate,
it's just pontificating.
it's just pontificating.
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And I had originally imagined
that the most successful debaters,
that the most successful debaters,
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really excellent persuaders,
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must be great at going to extremes.
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They must have some magical ability
to make the polarizing palatable.
to make the polarizing palatable.
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And it took me a really
long time to figure out
long time to figure out
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that the opposite is actually true.
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People who disagree the most productively
start by finding common ground,
start by finding common ground,
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no matter how narrow it is.
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They identify the thing
that we can all agree on
that we can all agree on
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and go from there:
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the right to an education,
equality between all people,
equality between all people,
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the importance of safer communities.
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What they're doing is inviting us
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into what psychologists
call shared reality.
call shared reality.
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And shared reality
is the antidote to alternative facts.
is the antidote to alternative facts.
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The conflict, of course, is still there.
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That's why it's a debate.
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Shared reality just gives us
a platform to start to talk about it.
a platform to start to talk about it.
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But the trick of debate
is that you end up doing it directly,
is that you end up doing it directly,
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face to face, across the table.
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And research backs up
that that really matters.
that that really matters.
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Professor Juliana Schroeder
at UC Berkeley and her colleagues
at UC Berkeley and her colleagues
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have research that suggests
that listening to someone's voice
that listening to someone's voice
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as they make a controversial argument
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is literally humanizing.
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It makes it easier to engage
with what that person has to say.
with what that person has to say.
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So, step away from the keyboards,
start conversing.
start conversing.
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And if we are to expand
that notion a little bit,
that notion a little bit,
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nothing is stopping us from pressing pause
on a parade of keynote speeches,
on a parade of keynote speeches,
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the sequence of very polite
panel discussions,
panel discussions,
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and replacing some of that
with a structured debate.
with a structured debate.
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All of our conferences could have,
at their centerpiece,
at their centerpiece,
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a debate over the biggest,
most controversial ideas in the field.
most controversial ideas in the field.
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Each of our weekly team meetings
could devote 10 minutes
could devote 10 minutes
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to a debate about a proposal to change
the way in which that team works.
the way in which that team works.
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And as innovative ideas go,
this one is both easy and free.
this one is both easy and free.
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You could start tomorrow.
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(Laughter)
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And once we're inside this shared reality,
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debate also requires
that we separate ideas
that we separate ideas
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from the identity
of the person discussing them.
of the person discussing them.
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So in formal debate, nothing is a topic
unless it is controversial:
unless it is controversial:
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that we should raise
the voting age, outlaw gambling.
the voting age, outlaw gambling.
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But the debaters don't choose their sides.
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So that's why it makes no sense
to do what 10-year-old Julia did.
to do what 10-year-old Julia did.
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Attacking the identity of the person
making the argument is irrelevant,
making the argument is irrelevant,
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because they didn't choose it.
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Your only winning strategy
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is to engage with the best, clearest,
least personal version of the idea.
least personal version of the idea.
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And it might sound impossible
or naive to imagine
or naive to imagine
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that you could ever take that notion
outside the high school auditorium.
outside the high school auditorium.
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We spend so much time dismissing ideas
as democrat or republican.
as democrat or republican.
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Rejecting proposals
because they came from headquarters,
because they came from headquarters,
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or from a region
that we think is not like ours.
that we think is not like ours.
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But it is possible.
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When I work with teams,
trying to come up with the next big idea,
trying to come up with the next big idea,
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or solve a really complex problem,
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I start by asking them, all of them,
to submit ideas anonymously.
to submit ideas anonymously.
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So by way of illustration, two years ago,
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I was working with multiple
government agencies
government agencies
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to generate new solutions
to reduce long-term unemployment.
to reduce long-term unemployment.
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Which is one of those really wicked,
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sticky, well-studied
public policy problems.
public policy problems.
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So exactly as I described,
right at the beginning,
right at the beginning,
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potential solutions were captured
from everywhere.
from everywhere.
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We aggregated them,
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each of them was produced
on an identical template.
on an identical template.
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At this point, they all look the same,
they have no separate identity.
they have no separate identity.
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And then, of course,
they are discussed, picked over,
they are discussed, picked over,
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refined, finalized.
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And at the end of that process,
more than 20 of those new ideas
more than 20 of those new ideas
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are presented to the cabinet ministers
responsible for consideration.
responsible for consideration.
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But more than half of those,
the originator of those ideas
the originator of those ideas
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was someone who might have a hard time
getting the ear of a policy advisor.
getting the ear of a policy advisor.
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Or who, because of their identity,
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might not be taken
entirely seriously if they did.
entirely seriously if they did.
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Folks who answer the phones,
assistants who manage calendars,
assistants who manage calendars,
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representatives from agencies
who weren't always trusted.
who weren't always trusted.
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Imagine if our news media
did the same thing.
did the same thing.
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You can kind of see it now --
a weekly cable news segment
a weekly cable news segment
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with a big policy proposal on the table
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that doesn't call it
liberal or conservative.
liberal or conservative.
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Or a series of op-eds
for and against a big idea
for and against a big idea
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that don't tell you
where the writers worked.
where the writers worked.
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Our public conversations,
even our private disagreements,
even our private disagreements,
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can be transformed by debating ideas,
rather than discussing identity.
rather than discussing identity.
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And then, the thing that debate
allows us to do as human beings
allows us to do as human beings
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is open ourselves,
really open ourselves up
really open ourselves up
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to the possibility that we might be wrong.
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The humility of uncertainty.
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One of the reasons it is so hard
to disagree productively
to disagree productively
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is because we become
attached to our ideas.
attached to our ideas.
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We start to believe that we own them
and that by extension, they own us.
and that by extension, they own us.
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But eventually, if you debate long enough,
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you will switch sides,
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you'll argue for and against
the expansion of the welfare state.
the expansion of the welfare state.
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For and against compulsory voting.
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And that exercise
flips a kind of cognitive switch.
flips a kind of cognitive switch.
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The suspicions that you hold
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about people who espouse beliefs
that you don't have, starts to evaporate.
that you don't have, starts to evaporate.
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Because you can imagine yourself
stepping into those shoes.
stepping into those shoes.
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And as you're stepping into those,
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you're embracing
the humility of uncertainty.
the humility of uncertainty.
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The possibility of being wrong.
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And it's that exact humility
that makes us better decision-makers.
that makes us better decision-makers.
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Neuroscientist and psychologist Mark Leary
at Duke University and his colleagues
at Duke University and his colleagues
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have found that people
who are able to practice --
who are able to practice --
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and it is a skill --
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what those researchers call
intellectual humility
intellectual humility
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are more capable of evaluating
a broad range of evidence,
a broad range of evidence,
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are more objective when they do so,
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and become less defensive
when confronted with conflicting evidence.
when confronted with conflicting evidence.
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All attributes that we want in our bosses,
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colleagues, discussion partners,
decision-makers,
decision-makers,
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all virtues that we would like
to claim for ourselves.
to claim for ourselves.
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And so, as we're embracing
that humility of uncertainty,
that humility of uncertainty,
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we should be asking each other,
all of us, a question.
all of us, a question.
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Our debate moderators, our news anchors
should be asking it
should be asking it
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of our elective representatives
and candidates for office, too.
and candidates for office, too.
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"What is it that you have changed
your mind about and why?"
your mind about and why?"
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"What uncertainty are you humble about?"
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And this by the way, isn't some fantasy
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about how public life
and public conversations could work.
and public conversations could work.
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It has precedent.
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So, in 1969,
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beloved American children's
television presenter Mister Rogers
television presenter Mister Rogers
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sits impaneled
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before the United States congressional
subcommittee on communications,
subcommittee on communications,
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chaired by the seemingly very
curmudgeonly John Pastore.
curmudgeonly John Pastore.
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And Mister Rogers is there
to make a kind of classic debate case,
to make a kind of classic debate case,
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a really bold proposal:
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an increase in federal funding
for public broadcasting.
for public broadcasting.
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And at the outset,
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committee disciplinarian
Senator Pastore is not having it.
Senator Pastore is not having it.
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This is about to end
really poorly for Mister Rogers.
really poorly for Mister Rogers.
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But patiently, very reasonably,
Mister Rogers makes the case
Mister Rogers makes the case
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why good quality children's broadcasting,
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the kinds of television programs
that talk about the drama that arises
that talk about the drama that arises
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in the most ordinary of families,
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matters to all of us.
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Even while it costs us.
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He invites us into a shared reality.
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And on the other side of that table,
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Senator Pastore listens,
engages and opens his mind.
engages and opens his mind.
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Out loud, in public, on the record.
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And Senator Pastore
says to Mister Rogers,
says to Mister Rogers,
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"You know, I'm supposed to be
a pretty tough guy,
a pretty tough guy,
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and this is the first time
I've had goosebumps in two days."
I've had goosebumps in two days."
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And then, later, "It looks like you
just earned the 20 million dollars."
just earned the 20 million dollars."
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We need many more Mister Rogers.
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People with the technical skills
of debate and persuasion.
of debate and persuasion.
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But on the other side of that table,
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we need many, many,
many more Senator Pastores.
many more Senator Pastores.
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And the magic of debate
is that it lets you, it empowers you
is that it lets you, it empowers you
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to be both Mister Rogers
and Senator Pastore simultaneously.
and Senator Pastore simultaneously.
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When I work with those same teams
that we talked about before,
that we talked about before,
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I ask them at the outset to pre-commit
to the possibility of being wrong.
to the possibility of being wrong.
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To explain to me and to each other
what it would take to change their minds.
what it would take to change their minds.
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And that's all about the attitude,
not the exercise.
not the exercise.
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Once you start thinking about
what it would take to change your mind,
what it would take to change your mind,
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you start to wonder why
you were quite so sure in the first place.
you were quite so sure in the first place.
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There is so much
that the practice of debate
that the practice of debate
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has to offer us
for how to disagree productively.
for how to disagree productively.
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And we should bring it to our workplaces,
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our conferences,
our city council meetings.
our city council meetings.
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And the principles of debate can transform
the way that we talk to one another,
the way that we talk to one another,
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to empower us to stop talking
and to start listening.
and to start listening.
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To stop dismissing
and to start persuading.
and to start persuading.
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To stop shutting down
and to start opening our minds.
and to start opening our minds.
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Thank you so much.
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(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julia Dhar - Business strategist, champion debaterBCG's Julia Dhar is a champion of ideas, facts and constructive disagreement.
Why you should listen
Julia Dhar won the World Schools Debate Championships three times, coached the New Zealand Schools' debating team to their first world debate championship win in 14 years and coached the Harvard University debate team to two world championships. Dhar co-founded and leads BeSmart, the Boston Consulting Group's Behavioral Economics and Insights initiative. She works globally to build organizations and societies that are more inclusive, generous and productive. Her book, The Decision Maker's Playbook: 12 Tactics for Thinking Clearly, Navigating Uncertainty, and Making Smarter Choices (with Simon Mueller), is set to be published by the Financial Times in 2019.
Julia Dhar | Speaker | TED.com