TEDWomen 2018
Lindy Lou Isonhood: A juror's reflections on the death penalty
琳蒂勞艾森胡德: 一位陪審員對於死刑的反思
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在琳蒂勞艾森胡德成長的小鎮上，死刑是人生中的事實，地下文化的一部分。但她在一場死刑審判中擔位陪審員——並投下了「是」，判那位男子死刑——她內在產生了些改變。在這場吸引人且個人化的演說中，艾森胡德反思了她自審判後二十五年來一直問自己的問題：我是殺人兇手嗎？
Lindy Lou Isonhood - Wife, mother, grandmother, friend
Lindy Lou Isonhood served as Juror No. 2 on a capital murder trial in 1994 -- an experience that changed her life. Full bio
Lindy Lou Isonhood served as Juror No. 2 on a capital murder trial in 1994 -- an experience that changed her life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
It was a Thursday,
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那天是星期四，
00:15
June the 23rd, 1994.
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1994 年 6 月 23 日。
00:23
(Sighs)
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（嘆氣）
00:24
"Collect your belongings.
You are free to go.
You are free to go.
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「收拾你的行裝。
你可以離開了。
你可以離開了。
00:28
When escorted outside,
go directly to your car.
go directly to your car.
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護送你出去之後，
請直接上你的車。
請直接上你的車。
00:32
Do not talk to reporters."
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不許與記者交談。」
00:36
My head is spinning,
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我感到天旋地轉，
00:38
my heart is racing,
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我的心跳加速，
00:40
I can't get a breath.
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我無法呼吸。
00:43
I just want out of there.
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我只想離開那裡。
00:47
When I get to my car,
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當我走進我的車，
00:49
I throw everything on the back,
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我把所有的東西都丟到後座，
00:52
and I just collapse
into the driver's seat.
into the driver's seat.
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我便癱倒在駕駛座上。
00:55
"I can't do this.
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「我辦不到。
00:57
I can't go home to my family
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我無法回家，
去面對一個星期來都沒見到的家人，
01:02
that I haven't seen in a week
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01:06
and pretend to be happy."
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還要裝出快樂的樣子。」
01:10
Not even their love and support
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就連他們的愛和支持
01:14
could help me at this particular time.
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也無法在這個時候給我幫助。
01:19
We had just sentenced a man to death.
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我們剛剛判了一個人死刑。
01:26
Now what?
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然後呢？
01:28
Just go home and wash dishes?
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就回家去洗碗盤嗎？
01:32
You see, in Mississippi,
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要知道，在密西西比，
01:37
the death penalty is like a part
of our unspoken culture.
of our unspoken culture.
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死刑就像是我們
地下文化的一部分。
地下文化的一部分。
01:43
The basic logic is, if you murder someone,
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基本的邏輯是，
如果你謀殺一個人，
如果你謀殺一個人，
01:47
then you're going to receive
the death penalty.
the death penalty.
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那你就會被判死刑。
01:51
So when the jury selection
process took place,
process took place,
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所以，當開始挑選陪審團成員時，
01:57
they asked me,
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他們問我：
02:01
"Could you,
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「你能嗎？
如果呈堂證供足以判他死刑，
02:03
if the evidence presented
justified the death penalty,
justified the death penalty,
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02:09
could you deliver,
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你能否，
02:11
rationally and without reservations,
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理性地，且沒有保留地，
02:13
a penalty of death?"
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判處死刑？」
02:17
My answer was an astounding "yes,"
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我當時的回答
是讓人震驚的「我能」，
是讓人震驚的「我能」，
02:21
and I was selected as Juror Number 2.
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而我就被選為二號陪審員。
02:26
The trial started.
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審判開始了。
02:28
From the evidence being presented
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根據呈堂的證據
02:32
and from the pictures of the victim,
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以及受害者的照片，
02:34
my first response was,
"Yes, this man is a monster,
"Yes, this man is a monster,
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我最初的反應是：
「是的，這個人是禽獸，
「是的，這個人是禽獸，
02:39
and he deserves the death penalty."
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他被判死刑是罪有應得。」
02:44
For days, I sat and looked at his hands,
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數日來，我坐著，看著他的手，
02:48
the ones that yielded the knife,
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那雙揮下刀的手，
02:53
and against his pasty white skin,
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以及與他蒼白的皮膚對比，
02:58
his eyes ...
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他那黝黑的雙眼……
03:00
Well, he spent endless days in his cell,
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他在他的牢房中待了無數日，
03:04
no sunlight,
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沒有陽光，
03:05
so his eyes were as black
as his hair and his mustache.
as his hair and his mustache.
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所以他的雙眼和他的
頭髮鬍鬚一樣黑。
頭髮鬍鬚一樣黑。
03:10
He was very intimidating,
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他看來十分嚇人，
03:14
and there was absolutely
no doubt in his guilt.
no doubt in his guilt.
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他有罪，這是無庸置疑的。
03:21
But regardless of his guilt,
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但，就算他有罪，
03:23
as the days passed,
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隨著日子過去，
03:26
I began to see this monster
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我開始把這禽獸
03:30
as a human being.
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當人來看待。
03:34
Something inside of me was changing
that I just didn't understand.
that I just didn't understand.
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我的內在發生了某種
我不理解的改變。
我不理解的改變。
03:39
I was beginning to question myself
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我開始質疑我自己，
03:41
as to whether or not I wanted
to give this man the death penalty.
to give this man the death penalty.
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不再確定我是否真的
想要判這個人死刑。
想要判這個人死刑。
03:47
Jury deliberations began,
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陪審團商議開始了，
03:50
and the judge gave us jury instructions
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法官給了我們陪審團審理指導，
03:56
and it was to be used as a tool
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它是一種工具，
03:59
in how to reach a verdict.
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用來協助達成裁決。
04:02
Well, using this tool
only led to one decision,
only led to one decision,
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用這項工具只會產生一種決定，
04:07
and that was the death penalty.
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那就是死刑。
04:10
I felt backed into a corner.
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我感覺退到了角落。
04:13
My head and my heart
were in conflict with each other,
were in conflict with each other,
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我的頭腦和內心互相矛盾，
04:16
and the thought of the death penalty
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我一想到死刑，
04:18
made me sick.
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就感到噁心。
04:23
However, following
the judge's instructions,
the judge's instructions,
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然而，遵循法官的指示，
04:28
being a law-abiding person,
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作為一個守法的人，
04:31
I gave up.
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我放棄了。
04:34
I gave up and voted along
with the other 11 jurors.
with the other 11 jurors.
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我放棄了，跟著其他
十一名陪審員投票。
十一名陪審員投票。
04:40
And there it was:
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這就是了：
04:42
our broken judicial system at work.
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我們不完善的司法體制
就是這麼運作的。
就是這麼運作的。
04:50
So here I am in my car,
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所以，我在我的車裡，
04:52
and I'm wondering:
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我很納悶：
04:54
How is my life ever going to be the same?
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我的人生怎麼能回得到原樣？
04:59
My life was kids, work,
church, ball games --
church, ball games --
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我的人生本來是孩子、
工作、教堂、球賽——
工作、教堂、球賽——
05:04
just your average, normal, everyday life.
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就是你平常看到的普通日常生活。
05:08
Now everything felt trivial.
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現在一切都變得不再重要。
05:11
I was going down this rabbit hole.
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我陷入了困惑當中。
05:14
The anger, the anxiety,
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那憤怒、焦慮、
05:18
the guilt, the depression ...
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罪惡感、沮喪感……
05:21
it just clung to me.
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都揮之不去。
05:23
I knew that my life had to resume,
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我知道我的人生還是得走下去，
05:29
so I sought counseling.
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所以我去尋求諮詢。
05:31
The counselor diagnosed me with PTSD
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諮詢師診斷我得了
創傷後壓力症候群，
創傷後壓力症候群，
05:35
and told me that the best way
to overcome the PTSD
to overcome the PTSD
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告訴我，克服此症候群最好的方式，
05:40
was to talk about the trauma.
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就是去談論創傷。
05:43
However, if I talked or tried
to talk about the trauma
to talk about the trauma
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然而，如果我在她辦公室
以外的地方談論
以外的地方談論
或試著談論那件事，
05:48
outside her office,
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05:50
I was shut down.
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我會被拒絕。
05:52
No one wanted to hear about it.
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沒有人想要聽我說這件事。
05:55
He was just a murderer. Get over it.
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他不過是個殺人犯。把他忘了吧。
05:59
It was then that I decided
to become a silent survivor.
to become a silent survivor.
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所以那時，我決定保持沉默地活著。
06:06
Twelve years later, 2006,
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十二年後，2006 年，
06:09
I learned that Bobby Wilcher
had dropped all of his appeals,
had dropped all of his appeals,
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我聽說巴比威爾奇
放棄了所有的上訴，
放棄了所有的上訴，
06:15
and his execution date was approaching.
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他的行刑日越來越近。
06:19
That was like a punch in the stomach.
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就好像往胃裡打了一拳。
06:22
All of those buried feelings
just started coming back.
just started coming back.
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所有被埋藏的感覺又開始回來了。
06:27
To try and find peace,
I called Bobby's attorney, and I said,
I called Bobby's attorney, and I said,
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為了試著找到平靜，
我打電話給巴比的律師，我說：
我打電話給巴比的律師，我說：
「我能在巴比被處死之前
見他一面嗎？」
見他一面嗎？」
06:32
"Can I see Bobby before he's executed?"
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06:36
Driving to the penitentiary
on the day of his execution,
on the day of his execution,
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在他的行刑日，我開車到監獄，
06:41
in my mind,
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我心裡猜想，
06:42
Bobby was going to be manic.
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巴比應該會很躁狂。
06:45
But, surprisingly, he was very calm.
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但，出乎意料，他相當冷靜。
06:50
And for two hours, he and I sat there
and talked about life,
and talked about life,
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足足兩個小時，
他和我坐下來談人生，
他和我坐下來談人生，
06:56
and I got to ask him to forgive me
for my hand in his death.
for my hand in his death.
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我向他請求原諒，
因為我參與他的死刑審判。
07:04
His words to me were:
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他對我說的話是：
07:06
"You don't have to apologize.
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「你不用道歉。
07:08
You didn't put me here.
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不是你讓我走到這一步的。
07:10
I did this myself.
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是我自己造成的。
07:14
But if it'll make you feel better,
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但如果能讓你感覺好一點，
07:15
I forgive you."
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我原諒你。」
07:19
On my way home,
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在回家的路上，
07:20
I stopped by a restaurant
and bought a margarita.
and bought a margarita.
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我在一家餐廳停下來，
買了一杯雞尾酒。
買了一杯雞尾酒。
07:24
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:29
I don't think I could
get one big enough --
get one big enough --
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我覺得一杯酒不夠——
07:31
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:32
to try and calm down.
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我試著冷靜下來。
07:35
My phone rang.
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我的手機響了。
07:38
It was Bobby's attorney.
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是巴比的律師打來的。
07:41
Within two minutes of his execution,
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離行刑不到兩分鐘的時間，
07:44
they had given him a stay.
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他們決定暫緩執行。
07:48
This stay gave me time
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這個決定讓我有時間
07:52
to reach out to Bobby.
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去接近巴比。
07:55
And as crazy as it may sound,
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聽起來可能很瘋狂，
07:57
we became friends.
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但我們成了朋友。
08:00
Three months later,
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三個月後，
08:02
he was executed
by the State of Mississippi.
by the State of Mississippi.
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他的死刑由密西西比州執行。
08:07
I'm here to tell you my story,
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我在這裡告訴各位我的故事，
08:13
because it was precisely 22 years later
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因為，正是二十二年後，
08:18
that I even wanted to open up
enough to talk about it,
enough to talk about it,
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我甚至想要公開談論這件事時，
08:23
when a friend encouraged me.
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一位朋友鼓勵我：
08:26
"Hey, perhaps you need to talk
to the other jurors.
to the other jurors.
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「嘿，也許你需要
和其他陪審員談談。
和其他陪審員談談。
08:30
You've been through the same experience."
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你們有過同樣的經歷。」
08:33
Uncertain of what I was after,
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我不太確定我的目的是什麼，
08:36
I did need to talk to them.
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但我的確需要和他們談談。
08:39
So I set out on my quest,
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所以，我展開了這趟追尋之旅，
08:42
and I actually found most of them.
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事實上我找到了大部分的陪審員。
08:45
The first juror I met
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我去見的第一位陪審員
08:47
thought that Bobby got what he deserved.
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認為巴比是罪有應得。
08:50
Another juror --
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另一位陪審員——
08:53
well, they just kind of regretted
that it took so long
that it took so long
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他們感到遺憾，
因為花了這麼長的時間
因為花了這麼長的時間
08:57
to carry the sentence out.
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才執行死刑。
08:59
Then one juror, and I don't know
what was wrong with him,
what was wrong with him,
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接著，有一位陪審員，
我不知道他怎麼回事，
我不知道他怎麼回事，
09:02
but he didn't remember
anything about the trial.
anything about the trial.
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但他完全不記得那場審判。
09:04
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:06
Well,
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嗯，
09:08
I'm thinking in my mind,
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我心裡想著：
09:10
"Jeez, is this the response
I'm gonna get from everybody else?"
I'm gonna get from everybody else?"
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「天啊，我從其他人那邊
也會得到這樣的回應嗎？」
也會得到這樣的回應嗎？」
09:15
Well, thank God for Allen.
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謝天謝地，還好有艾倫。
09:19
Allen was a gentle soul.
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艾倫心地善良。
09:22
And when I talked to him,
he was genuinely upset
he was genuinely upset
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我和他談的時候，他是真的
對我們的決定感到心煩。
09:26
about our decision.
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09:29
And he told me about the day
that the devastation
that the devastation
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他告訴我那天的狀況，
他真的感到傷痛欲絕。
09:33
really set in on him and hit him.
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09:37
He was listening to the radio,
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他聽到廣播
09:40
and the radio had a list of names
of men to be executed
of men to be executed
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唸出了密西西比州立監獄
將要被處死的死囚名單。
09:45
at Parchman Penitentiary.
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09:49
He heard Bobby's name,
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他聽到巴比的名字，
09:51
and he then truly realized
what he had done.
what he had done.
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接著，他才真正意識到
他做了什麼事。
他做了什麼事。
09:55
And he said, "You know, I had
a responsibility in that man's death."
a responsibility in that man's death."
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他說：「你知道嗎，
那個人的死，我也有責任。」
那個人的死，我也有責任。」
10:01
Now here it is, 20-something years later,
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現在，二十多年後，
10:03
and Allen is still dealing
with that issue.
with that issue.
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艾倫仍然為那件事情而煩惱。
10:08
And he's never told anyone about it,
not even his wife.
not even his wife.
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他從來沒有跟任何人說過，
連他的妻子都沒有。
連他的妻子都沒有。
10:14
He also told me
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他也告訴我，
10:15
that if the State of Mississippi
wanted to keep the death penalty,
wanted to keep the death penalty,
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如果密西西比州想要保有死刑，
10:18
then hey, they needed to provide
counseling for the jurors.
counseling for the jurors.
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那麼，他們需要給陪審員
提供心理諮詢服務。
提供心理諮詢服務。
10:24
Then the next juror I met was Jane.
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我接下來見的陪審員是珍。
10:27
Jane is now totally
against the death penalty,
against the death penalty,
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珍現在完全是個反對死刑的人，
10:31
And there was Bill.
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還有比爾，
10:33
Bill said he had this
crushing depression for weeks,
crushing depression for weeks,
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比爾說他有好幾週的時間
都快被憂鬱感給壓垮了，
都快被憂鬱感給壓垮了，
10:38
and when he went back to work,
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當他回去工作時，
10:40
his colleagues would say
things to him like,
things to him like,
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他的同事會對他說類似這樣的話：
10:44
"Hey, did you fry him?"
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「嘿，你是不是把他炸了啊？
10:45
To them, it was just a joke.
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對他們來說，那只是個笑話。
10:48
Then there was Jon.
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然後，還有強。
10:50
Jon said his decision weighed on him,
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強說他的決定讓他感到很沉重，
10:55
and it burdened him daily.
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每天都是他的負擔。
10:58
The final juror that I spoke to was Ken.
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我交談的最後一位陪審員是肯。
11:01
Ken was the foreman of the jury.
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肯是當時陪審團的主席。
11:05
When we sat down to talk,
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我們坐下來談時，
11:08
it was apparent that he was deeply
saddened by what we were required to do.
saddened by what we were required to do.
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很顯然他對於我們當時
被要求做的事，感到悲傷沉重。
被要求做的事，感到悲傷沉重。
11:15
He relived the day
that he left the courthouse
that he left the courthouse
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他回想那天的經歷，
他離開了法院，
他離開了法院，
11:19
and he drove home
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開車回到家，
11:21
and he went to put his key
in his door and unlock it,
in his door and unlock it,
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把他的鑰匙插入
他家的大門，把鎖打開，
他家的大門，把鎖打開，
11:24
and he said he literally broke down.
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他說他真的是崩潰了。
11:30
He said he knew that Bobby was guilty,
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他說他知道巴比有罪，
11:33
but the decision he made,
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但他所做的決定，
11:35
he did not know
if it was the right decision.
if it was the right decision.
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他不知道那是否是正確的決定。
11:40
And he said that he played it
over and over in his head.
over and over in his head.
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他說他在的腦海不斷回想一個問題。
11:43
Did we do the right thing?
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我們當初做的是對的事嗎？
11:46
Did we do the right thing?
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我們當初做的是對的事嗎？
11:49
Did we do the right thing?
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我們當初做的是對的事嗎？
11:55
(Sighs)
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（嘆氣）
11:58
All those years,
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這些年來，
12:00
and I finally realized that I was not
the only disillusioned juror.
the only disillusioned juror.
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我終於知道我不是唯一
幻想破滅的陪審員。
幻想破滅的陪審員。
12:06
And we talked about sharing our experience
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我們談到，我們可以把我們的經驗
12:11
with potential jurors
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和可能當陪審員的人分享，
12:15
to give them some insight
into what to expect,
into what to expect,
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讓他們知道要預期什麼，
12:20
and to tell them do not be complacent;
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並告訴他們不要自滿；
12:23
to know what you believe;
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要知道自己的信念；
12:26
to know where you stand and be prepared,
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要知道你的立場，且要準備好，
12:31
because you don't want
to walk in one morning as a juror
to walk in one morning as a juror
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因為你並不希望有一天
以陪審員的身分走進去，
以陪審員的身分走進去，
12:37
and leave at the end of the trial
feeling like a murderer.
feeling like a murderer.
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在審判結束時卻感覺
自己像是個殺人兇手。
自己像是個殺人兇手。
12:42
Now, through this storm in my life,
I did find some inspiration,
I did find some inspiration,
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我確實在我人生中的
這場風暴裡找到了一些靈感，
這場風暴裡找到了一些靈感，
12:46
and it came in the form
of my granddaughters.
of my granddaughters.
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它化身成我的孫女們，
出現在我生命中。
出現在我生命中。
12:50
My 14-year-old granddaughter, Maddie,
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我十四歲的孫女，瑪迪，
12:53
was writing an essay
on the death penalty for school,
on the death penalty for school,
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在寫一篇關於死刑的學校論文，
12:57
and she was asking me questions.
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她問了我一些問題。
12:59
Well, it dawned on me
that this child was being raised
that this child was being raised
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我漸漸明白，這個孩子成長的環境
13:03
in the same eye-for-an-eye culture
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是同樣以牙還牙的文化，
13:08
as I was,
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和我過去——
或曾經成長——的環境一樣。
或曾經成長——的環境一樣。
13:09
or had been.
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13:12
And so I explained my experience
to her this way:
to her this way:
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我用這樣的方式
向她解釋我的經歷：
向她解釋我的經歷：
13:16
that I had sentenced someone to death
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我在當陪審員時，判了某人死刑。
13:21
as I served on a jury.
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13:24
And I asked her,
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我問她：
13:26
"Did that make me a murderer?"
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「那是否表示我是殺人兇手？」
13:29
She couldn't answer.
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她無法回答。
13:31
I knew then that this topic
needed to be open for discussion.
needed to be open for discussion.
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我知道這個話題需要被公開討論。
13:36
And guess what happened?
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猜猜發生了什麼事？
13:38
I got invited to speak, just recently,
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最近，我受到邀請，
13:42
in an abolitionist community.
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去一個廢奴主義團體演講。
13:45
While I was there, I got a T-shirt.
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我到那裡時，拿到一件 T 恤。
13:48
It says, "Stop Executions."
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上面寫著「停止死刑」。
13:52
Well, when I get home, my 16-year-old
granddaughter was there, Anna,
granddaughter was there, Anna,
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當我回家時，我的十六歲
孫女安娜在家裡，
孫女安娜在家裡，
13:56
and she says, "Can I have that shirt?"
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她說：「這件上衣可以給我嗎？」
14:00
Well, I looked at her dad --
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我看著她爸爸——
14:02
her dad is my son --
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她爸爸就是我兒子——
14:04
and I knew that he is still dealing
with this death penalty issue.
with this death penalty issue.
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我知道他還在處理這個死刑議題。
14:09
So I turned around
and I looked at her, and I said,
and I looked at her, and I said,
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所以我轉過身，我看著她，說：
14:12
"Are you gonna wear this?"
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「你打算要穿它嗎？」
14:14
So she turned and she looked
at her dad, and she said,
at her dad, and she said,
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於是，她轉身，看著她爸爸，說：
14:18
"Dad, I know how you feel,
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「爸，我懂你的感受，
14:19
but I don't believe in the death penalty."
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但我不相信應該要有死刑。」
14:24
My son looked at me,
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我兒子看著我，
14:27
shook his head, and said,
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搖搖頭，說：
14:31
"Thanks, Mom."
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「謝了，媽。」
14:34
And I knew it wasn't a nice "Thanks, Mom."
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我知道那句「謝了，媽。」是個反話。
14:37
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
14:39
So I learned that life
had taught me some lessons.
had taught me some lessons.
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所以，我了解到，
人生給了我一些教訓，
人生給了我一些教訓，
14:46
It taught me, if I had
not served on that jury,
not served on that jury,
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它教會我，如果我沒擔任過陪審員，
14:51
that I would still be of the same mindset.
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我可能還會保有同樣的心態。
14:57
It also gave me confidence
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它也給了我信心，
14:59
to be able to see through
the eyes of my granddaughters,
the eyes of my granddaughters,
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能夠透過我孫女們的
眼睛來看世界，
眼睛來看世界，
15:03
that this younger generation,
they're capable and they're willing
they're capable and they're willing
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這個年輕的世代，
他們有能力也願意
他們有能力也願意
15:09
to tackle these difficult social issues.
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去解決這些社會難題。
15:14
And because of my experience,
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因為我的經歷，
15:16
my granddaughters,
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我的孫女們，
15:18
they're now more equipped
to stand on their own
to stand on their own
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她們現在更有能力，
15:23
and to think for themselves
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去為自己獨立思考，
15:26
than to rely on cultural beliefs.
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而不只是仰賴文化的信念。
15:32
So:
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所以：
15:34
being from a conservative,
Christian family
Christian family
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我來自一個保守的基督教家庭，
15:38
from a very conservative state
in the United States,
in the United States,
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來自美國一個非常保守的州，
15:44
I am here to tell you
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我在此告訴各位，
15:45
that the death penalty has new opponents.
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死刑有了新的敵手了。
15:51
Thank you.
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謝謝。
15:52
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Lindy Lou Isonhood - Wife, mother, grandmother, friendLindy Lou Isonhood served as Juror No. 2 on a capital murder trial in 1994 -- an experience that changed her life.
Why you should listen
As Lindy Lou Isonhood writes: "I was born in Yazoo City, Mississippi, in December 1951 and was raised by my grandmother, a widow with nine children. She was my salvation. From her nurturing I acquired my integrity, independence and strength. She impacted the lives of all around her. I was employed for over half my life: as a federal police officer in the 1970s, then I went on to be the first female letter carrier with the US Postal Service in Jackson for seven years, followed by 18 years in the MS Army National Guard. I ended my working career as an office manager after 13 years with an architectural firm.
"A strong Christian, I am married to a retired colonel who is a very staunch conservative, like me. I'm the mother of two children, a son and a daughter, and three grandchildren -- all girls! The hearts of my life! There is nothing extraordinary about me. I have never achieved fame or any outstanding records or recognition. Never received a college degree although I have many accumulated hours. But my life reached a turning point when I served as a juror in the sentencing phase of a capital murder trial in 1994. This experience changed me from the inside out."
Lindy Lou Isonhood | Speaker | TED.com