TEDxGhent
Erin Marie Saltman: How young people join violent extremist groups -- and how to stop them
艾琳·玛利·萨特曼: 年轻人怎么会加入暴力的极端团体——以及怎样阻止他们
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恐怖主义者和极端主义者并不都是天生暴力的反社会者——他们是在一个不规则的过程中被故意招募并变得激进。艾琳·玛利·萨特曼讨论了导致人们加入极端团体的推动和拉回因素，并解释了预防和反击激进过程的新方法。
Erin Marie Saltman - Policy researcher
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Full bio
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So in 2011, I altered my name
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在2011年，我为了参加
在匈牙利的极右青年营而改了名字。
00:16
so that I could participate
in Far Right youth camp in Hungary.
in Far Right youth camp in Hungary.
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00:20
I was doing a PhD looking at
youth political socialization --
youth political socialization --
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我当时正在做一个
青年政治社交的博士研究——
青年政治社交的博士研究——
为什么年轻人正在
后共产主义的环境下
后共产主义的环境下
00:25
why young people were developing
political ideologies
political ideologies
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发展出政治思想体系。
00:28
in a post-communist setting,
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然后我看到许多
同我谈话的年轻人
同我谈话的年轻人
00:30
and I saw that a lot
of young people I was talking to
of young people I was talking to
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在加入极右营，
00:33
were joining the Far Right,
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而这使我感到很震惊。
00:35
and this was astounding to me.
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所以我想要参与这个青年营
00:37
So I wanted to enroll in this youth camp
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来更好地理解
人们为什么加入它。
人们为什么加入它。
00:39
to get a better understanding
of why people were joining.
of why people were joining.
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一个同事帮我注册了，
00:42
So a colleague enrolled me,
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而我的姓听起来有点太像犹太人。
00:44
and my last name sounds
a little bit too Jewish.
a little bit too Jewish.
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00:47
So Erin got turned into Iréna,
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也就是艾琳被改成了艾伦娜，
而萨特曼被改成了梭斯，
00:50
and Saltman got turned into Sós,
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也就是匈牙利语中的“咸”的意思。
00:52
which means "salty" in Hungarian.
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而在匈牙利语中，你的姓在前面
00:55
And in Hungarian,
your last name goes first,
your last name goes first,
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所以我的代号变成了
“咸咸的艾伦娜”，
“咸咸的艾伦娜”，
00:57
so my James Bond name
turned into "Salty Irena,"
turned into "Salty Irena,"
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这是我不会自然而然
选给自己的名字。
选给自己的名字。
01:02
which is not something
I would have naturally chosen for myself.
I would have naturally chosen for myself.
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01:06
But going to this camp,
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但是参加这个营的时候，
我更震惊地意识到
它其实真的挺有趣的。
它其实真的挺有趣的。
01:08
I was further shocked to realize
that it was actually really fun.
that it was actually really fun.
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01:13
They talked very little about politics.
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他们很少谈论政治，
大部分时间是学习骑马，
01:15
It was mostly learning how to ride horses,
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射箭，
01:18
shooting a bow and arrow,
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晚上演奏音乐，
01:20
live music at night,
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有免费的食物和酒精饮料，
01:22
free food and alcohol,
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以及一些气枪打靶练习，
01:24
also some air-gun target practice
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用主流政治家的脸当靶子。
01:26
using mainstream politicians'
faces as targets.
faces as targets.
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而这看上去像一个非常
友好的、包容的团体，
友好的、包容的团体，
01:30
And this seemed like a very,
actually, friendly, inclusive group
actually, friendly, inclusive group
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直到你开始谈到或提起
任何有关罗马尼亚人、
任何有关罗马尼亚人、
01:34
until you started talking or mentioning
anything to do with the Roma population,
anything to do with the Roma population,
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犹太人、或是移民的话题，
01:39
Jewish people or immigrants,
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然后谈话就会很快变得充满仇恨。
01:42
and then the discourse would become
very hate-based very quickly.
very hate-based very quickly.
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01:46
So it led me into my work now,
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于是这就引导我开始了现在的工作，
也就是提出这个问题，
01:49
where we pose the question,
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“人们为什么加入暴力的极端运动，
01:52
"Why do people join
violent extremist movements,
violent extremist movements,
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而我们怎么去有效地反击这个过程？“
01:55
and how do we effectively
counter these processes?"
counter these processes?"
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01:58
In the aftermath of horrible
atrocities and attacks
atrocities and attacks
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比利时、法国等地区
还在骇人听闻的
还在骇人听闻的
暴行和袭击的余悸中，
但是在世界各地
但是在世界各地
02:01
in places like Belgium, France,
but all over the world,
but all over the world,
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有时候我们更容易认为
02:05
sometimes it's easier for us to think,
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“这些肯定是反社会人物，
02:07
"Well, these must be sociopaths,
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这些肯定是天生暴力的人。
02:09
these must be naturally
violent individuals.
violent individuals.
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他们从小接受的教育肯定有问题。“
02:12
They must have something wrong
with their upbringing."
with their upbringing."
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真正的让人惋惜的是，
02:14
And what's really tragic
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02:16
is that oftentimes there's no one profile.
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很多时候它没有一个绝对的答案。
02:19
Many people come
from educated backgrounds,
from educated backgrounds,
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很多人都受过教育，
有着不同的社会经济背景，
02:22
different socioeconomic backgrounds,
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不同年龄的男人和女人，
02:24
men and women, different ages,
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有些有家庭，有些单身。
02:27
some with families, some single.
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为什么要这么做？
他们受了什么诱惑？
他们受了什么诱惑？
02:29
So why? What is this allure?
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而这就是我想要和你们讨论的，
02:32
And this is what
I want to talk you through,
I want to talk you through,
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以及我们怎样在现代挑战这件事。
02:34
as well as how do we
challenge this in a modern era?
challenge this in a modern era?
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02:38
We do know, through research,
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我们通过研究知道，
有很多不同的东西
02:40
that there are quite a number
of different things
of different things
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影响着一个人变得激进的过程，
02:42
that affect somebody's
process of radicalization,
process of radicalization,
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而我们把这些分类为
推动和拉回因素。
推动和拉回因素。
02:45
and we categorize these
into push and pull factors.
into push and pull factors.
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这些因素在极右、新纳粹团体，甚至是
02:48
And these are pretty much similar
for Far Right, neo-Nazi groups
for Far Right, neo-Nazi groups
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穆斯林极端和
恐怖团体中都差不多。
恐怖团体中都差不多。
02:52
all the way to Islamist extremist
and terrorist groups.
and terrorist groups.
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02:55
And push factors are basically
what makes you vulnerable
what makes you vulnerable
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而推动因素让你更容易
受激进过程的影响，
02:59
to a process of radicalization,
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更容易去加入
一个暴力的极端团体
一个暴力的极端团体
03:01
to joining a violent extremist group.
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而这些可以是很多不同的事情，
03:03
And these can be
a lot of different things,
a lot of different things,
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但粗略来说就是，疏远感，孤立感，
03:05
but roughly, a sense of alienation,
a sense of isolation,
a sense of isolation,
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质疑你自己的身份
03:09
questioning your own identity,
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但同时感到你所属的群体
正在受到攻击，
正在受到攻击，
03:11
but also feeling that your in-group
is under attack,
is under attack,
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而你的群体可能基于
一个国籍或是一个种族
一个国籍或是一个种族
03:14
and your in group might be based
on a nationality or an ethnicity
on a nationality or an ethnicity
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或是一个宗教，
03:18
or a religion,
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以及感到你周围更大的权力
没有提供任何帮助。
没有提供任何帮助。
03:19
and feeling that larger powers around you
are doing nothing to help.
are doing nothing to help.
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03:24
Now, push factors alone
do not make you a violent extremist,
do not make you a violent extremist,
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仅仅是推动因素不会把你
变成一个暴力的极端主义者，
变成一个暴力的极端主义者，
因为如果那是事实，
03:27
because if that were the fact,
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那些相同的因素也应该适用于
像是罗马尼亚人的群体，
像是罗马尼亚人的群体，
03:28
those same factors would go
towards a group like the Roma population,
towards a group like the Roma population,
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而他们并不是一个暴力群体。
03:32
and they're not
a violently mobilized group.
a violently mobilized group.
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那么我们需要看一下拉回因素。
03:35
So we have to look at the pull factors.
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这些暴力的极端组织提供了什么
03:37
What are these violent
extremist organizations offering
extremist organizations offering
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别的团体没有提供的呢？
03:40
that other groups are not offering?
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通常是非常积极的东西，
03:42
And actually, this is usually
very positive things,
very positive things,
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看上去非常能赋予权力的东西，
03:45
very seemingly empowering things,
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像是兄弟情谊和姐妹情谊
03:47
such as brotherhood and sisterhood
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一种归属感，
03:49
and a sense of belonging,
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以及给人一个精神目标，
03:51
as well as giving somebody
a spiritual purpose,
a spiritual purpose,
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一个神圣的目标来
建造一个乌托邦社会，
建造一个乌托邦社会，
03:54
a divine purpose
to build a utopian society
to build a utopian society
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如果他们的目标可以被实现的话，
03:57
if their goals can be met,
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但还有一种自主感和冒险感。
03:59
but also a sense of empowerment
and adventure.
and adventure.
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当我们想到国外恐怖主义的斗争者时，
04:02
When we look
at foreign terrorist fighters,
at foreign terrorist fighters,
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我们看到了沙漠中
匆匆赶路的年轻人，
匆匆赶路的年轻人，
04:04
we see young men
with the wind in their hair
with the wind in their hair
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而女人走过去加入他们，
04:07
out in the desert
and women going to join them
and women going to join them
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然后在夕阳中举行婚礼。
04:09
to have nuptials out in the sunset.
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这很浪漫，而你会变成一个英雄，
04:12
It's very romantic, and you become a hero.
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对男人和女人来说
这就是他们被许诺的东西。
这就是他们被许诺的东西。
04:16
For both men and women,
that's the propaganda being given.
that's the propaganda being given.
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04:19
So what extremist groups are very good at
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极端团体非常善于
把一个非常复杂、
令人困惑且琐碎的世界
令人困惑且琐碎的世界
04:22
is taking a very complicated,
confusing, nuanced world
confusing, nuanced world
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简化为一个只有黑和白，
04:27
and simplifying that world
into black and white,
into black and white,
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好和坏的世界。
04:30
good and evil.
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而你成为了好的，
04:31
And you become what is good,
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04:33
challenging what is evil.
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挑战着坏的事物。
04:36
So I want to talk a little bit
about ISIS, Daesh,
about ISIS, Daesh,
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那么我想稍微谈一谈伊斯兰国，
因为他们通过许多宣传材料和策略
04:40
because they have been a game changer
in how we look at these processes,
in how we look at these processes,
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改变了我们是怎样看待这些过程的。
04:44
and through a lot of the material
and their tactics.
and their tactics.
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他们几乎相当于一个现代运动。
04:48
They're very much a modern movement.
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04:50
One of the aspects is the internet
and the usage of social media,
and the usage of social media,
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其中一个方面就是
网络和社交媒体的使用，
网络和社交媒体的使用，
因为我们都在推特头条
和砍头视频里见过。
和砍头视频里见过。
04:55
as we've all seen in headlines
tweeting and videos of beheadings.
tweeting and videos of beheadings.
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但是单纯使用网络不会使你变得激进。
04:59
But the internet alone
does not radicalize you.
does not radicalize you.
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网络是一个工具，
05:02
The internet is a tool.
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你不会上网买鞋子，
05:03
You don't go online shopping for shoes
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然后突然变成了一个伊斯兰圣徒。
05:05
and accidentally become a jihadist.
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05:07
However, what the Internet
does do is it is a catalyst.
does do is it is a catalyst.
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然而，网络的作用是催化剂。
它提供其它地方不存在的
05:11
It provides tools and scale and rapidity
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工具，规模和速度。
05:15
that doesn't exist elsewhere.
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而对于伊斯兰国，突然之间
05:16
And with ISIS, all of a sudden,
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这个披着斗篷、黑暗的圣徒形象
突然为我们改变了。
突然为我们改变了。
05:19
this idea of a cloaked, dark figure
of a jihadist changed for us.
of a jihadist changed for us.
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突然之间，我们在他们的厨房里，
05:24
All of a sudden,
we were in their kitchens.
we were in their kitchens.
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看到了他们晚饭吃什么。
05:26
We saw what they were eating for dinner.
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他们在发微博。
05:28
They were tweeting.
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我们看到外国的恐怖分子
用他们自己的语言发微博。
用他们自己的语言发微博。
05:29
We had foreign terrorist fighters
tweeting in their own languages.
tweeting in their own languages.
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我们看到女人们公开谈论她们的婚礼，
05:33
We had women going out there
talking about their wedding day,
talking about their wedding day,
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她们孩子的出生。
05:36
about the births of their children.
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我们有突然间有了游戏文化，
05:37
We had gaming culture, all of a sudden,
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然还提到了侠盗飞车。
05:39
and references
to Grand Theft Auto being made.
to Grand Theft Auto being made.
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05:43
So all of a sudden, they were homey.
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突然之间，他们变得普通了。
他们变成了人类。
05:45
They became human.
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而问题是，为了应对这种情况，
05:47
And the problem
is that trying to counter it,
is that trying to counter it,
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许多政府和社交媒体公司
05:49
lots of governments
and social media companies
and social media companies
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都试图进行审查。
05:51
just tried to censor.
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我们怎样去掉恐怖主义内容？
05:52
How do we get rid of terrorist content?
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然后它变成了一个猫捉老鼠的游戏，
05:54
And it became a cat-and-mouse game
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我们会看到账号被封杀，
然后它们只卷土重来，
然后它们只卷土重来，
05:56
where we would see accounts taken down
and they'd just come back up,
and they'd just come back up,
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有着第25个账号的人的傲慢
05:59
and an arrogance around somebody
having a 25th account
having a 25th account
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以及被散播到各处的资料。
06:02
and material that was
disseminated everywhere.
disseminated everywhere.
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但是我们也看到了
一个危险的趋势——
一个危险的趋势——
06:06
But we also saw a dangerous trend --
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暴力的极端主义者
也知道社交媒体的规则和管理方法。
也知道社交媒体的规则和管理方法。
06:08
violent extremists know the rules
and regulations of social media, too.
and regulations of social media, too.
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所以我们会看到一个平淡的招募对话
06:13
So we would see a banal
conversation with a recruiter
conversation with a recruiter
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在一个主流平台上开始，
06:17
start on a mainstream platform,
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而当那个对话
06:19
and at the point
at which that conversation
at which that conversation
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就要变得违法时，
06:21
was going to become illegal,
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他们会跳到一个
更小的，更疏于管理的
更小的，更疏于管理的
06:22
they would jump to a smaller,
less regulated,
less regulated,
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加密的平台。
06:25
more encrypted platform.
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所以突然之间，我们跟踪不到
那个对话去了哪里。
那个对话去了哪里。
06:26
So all of a sudden, we couldn't
track where that conversation went.
track where that conversation went.
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那么这是审查制度的一个问题，
06:30
So this is a problem with censorship,
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也就是为什么我们需要
开发审查制度的替代品。
开发审查制度的替代品。
06:32
which is why we need to develop
alternatives to censorship.
alternatives to censorship.
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06:36
ISIS is also a game-changer
because it's state-building.
because it's state-building.
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伊斯兰国也是一个游戏改变者，
因为它建造了一个国家。
因为它建造了一个国家。
它不只是招募战斗者，
06:39
It's not just recruiting combatants;
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它还试着建造一个国家。
06:41
it's trying to build a state.
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而这意味着突然之间，
06:43
And what that means is all of a sudden,
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你的招募模式变得更加宽泛了。
06:45
your recruitment model is much more broad.
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你不仅仅试着找斗士——
06:47
You're not just trying to get fighters --
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现在你需要建筑师、工程师、
会计、黑客、和女人。
会计、黑客、和女人。
06:49
now you need architects, engineers,
accountants, hackers and women.
accountants, hackers and women.
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我们其实已经看到了
在过去的24，尤其是12个月里，
在过去的24，尤其是12个月里，
06:53
We've actually seen
a huge increase of women going
a huge increase of women going
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加入他们的女性数量急剧增加。
06:56
in the last 24, but especially 12 months.
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有些国家里，目前4个加入的人中
06:59
Some countries, one in four
of the people going over to join
of the people going over to join
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就有1个是女性。
07:02
are now women.
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这从本质上改变了
07:03
And so, this really changes
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和我们一起试着反抗这个过程的人。
07:05
who we're trying to counter
this process with.
this process with.
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07:08
Now, not all doom and gloom.
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但是，还有希望。
那么接下来我想
谈一些积极的事情，
谈一些积极的事情，
07:10
So the rest I'd like to talk about
some of the positive things
some of the positive things
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以及试着预防并反击
暴力的极端主义的新方法。
暴力的极端主义的新方法。
07:13
and the new innovation in trying
to prevent and counter violent extremism.
to prevent and counter violent extremism.
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预防和反击很不一样，
07:17
Preventing is very different
than countering,
than countering,
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而事实上，你可以用
医学概念来思考它。
医学概念来思考它。
07:19
and actually, you can think of it
in medical terms.
in medical terms.
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那么预防性药物就是
07:22
So preventative medicine is,
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我们怎么利用它来让你对这个激进过程
07:24
how do we make it
so you are naturally resilient
so you are naturally resilient
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存在天然的抵抗力。
07:27
to this process of radicalization,
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然而如果某些人已然表现出了
07:30
whereas that is going to be different
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属于一个暴力的极端主义意识形态，
07:31
if somebody is already showing
a symptom or a sign
a symptom or a sign
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情况就不同了。
07:34
of belonging to a violent
extremist ideology.
extremist ideology.
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07:37
And so in preventative measures,
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所以在预防性方法中，
我们讨论的更多是很宽泛的群体，
07:39
we're talking more
about really broad groups of people
about really broad groups of people
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让他们了解各种不同的意识形态，
07:41
and exposure to ideas
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让他们对形成抵抗力。
07:43
to make them resilient.
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然而如果某些人
07:45
Whereas it's very different
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已经开始提问并同意网上的
某些观点，情况就不同了。
某些观点，情况就不同了。
07:46
if somebody is starting to question
and agree with certain things online,
and agree with certain things online,
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如果某些人已经有了一个万字纹身，
而且在一个群体中根深蒂固，
而且在一个群体中根深蒂固，
07:50
and it's also very different
if somebody already has a swastika tattoo
if somebody already has a swastika tattoo
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情况也变得不一样了。
07:54
and is very much embedded within a group.
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你怎么触动他们呢？
07:56
How do you reach them?
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07:58
So I'd like to go through three examples
of each one of those levels
of each one of those levels
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那么我想要解读一下
关于这每一个阶段的三个例子，
关于这每一个阶段的三个例子，
并且和你们谈论
08:02
and talk you through
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一些新的鼓励人们参与的方法。
08:03
what some of the new ways
of engaging with people are becoming.
of engaging with people are becoming.
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08:07
One is "Extreme Dialogue,"
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其一就是“极端对话”，
这是一个我们参与发展的教育项目。
08:08
and it's an educational program
that we helped develop.
that we helped develop.
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这个项目来自加拿大，
08:11
This one is from Canada,
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目的是在一个教室环境中通过讲故事
08:14
and it's meant to create dialogues
within a classroom setting,
within a classroom setting,
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创造对话。
08:18
using storytelling,
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因为暴力的极端主义
可以是非常难以解释的，
可以是非常难以解释的，
08:19
because violent extremism
can be very hard to try to explain,
can be very hard to try to explain,
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尤其是对于年轻人来说。
08:23
especially to younger individuals.
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08:25
So we have a network of former extremists
and survivors of extremism
and survivors of extremism
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我们有一个前极端主义者
和极端主义下的幸存者的关系网，
和极端主义下的幸存者的关系网，
他们通过视频和设计教室提问
来讲述自己的故事，
来讲述自己的故事，
08:29
that tell their stories through video
and create question-giving to classrooms,
and create question-giving to classrooms,
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来开始一个有关这个话题的谈话。
08:33
to start a conversation about the topic.
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这两个例子影响了克里斯蒂安，
08:35
These two examples show Christianne,
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她失去了她的儿子，
08:38
who lost her son,
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他变得激进，并为伊斯兰国战斗至死。
08:39
who radicalized and died
fighting for ISIS,
fighting for ISIS,
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还有丹尼尔，一个前新纳粹份子，
08:41
and Daniel is a former neo-Nazi
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他曾是一个极度暴力的新纳粹。
08:43
who was an extremely violent neo-Nazi,
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而他们对于自己的生活和处境
提出了问题并感到了后悔，
提出了问题并感到了后悔，
08:45
and they pose questions about their lives
and where they're at and regret,
and where they're at and regret,
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而且强制一个教室来对此展开对话。
08:50
and force a classroom
to have a dialogue around it.
to have a dialogue around it.
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08:53
Now, looking at that middle range
of individuals,
of individuals,
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看到了个人的一段人生，
事实上，我们感到需要
很多公民的社会声音。
很多公民的社会声音。
08:56
actually, we need a lot
of civil society voices.
of civil society voices.
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怎么去和正在网上搜索信息，
08:58
How do you interact with people
that are looking for information online,
that are looking for information online,
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玩弄意识形态，
09:02
that are starting to toy with an ideology,
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搜索着身份认同问题的人沟通呢？
09:04
that are doing those searching
identity questions?
identity questions?
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我们怎么为那些人提供替代内容呢？
09:07
How do we provide alternatives for that?
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09:09
And that's when we combine
large groups of civil society voices
large groups of civil society voices
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而这时我们就把
大群的公民社会声音
大群的公民社会声音
同创新者、技术人员，
应用程序开发者、艺术家、戏剧家相结合，
应用程序开发者、艺术家、戏剧家相结合，
09:13
with creatives, techies,
app developers, artists, comedians,
app developers, artists, comedians,
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而且我们可以创造非常详细的内容，
09:17
and we can create really specified content
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而且可以在网上
散布给有战略眼光的观众。
散布给有战略眼光的观众。
09:20
and actually, online, disseminate it
to very strategic audiences.
to very strategic audiences.
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一个例子是录制一个讽刺视频，
09:24
So one example would be
creating a satirical video
creating a satirical video
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其内容是嘲笑伊斯兰恐惧症，
09:27
which makes fun of Islamophobia,
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然后把目标群体瞄准15-20岁，
09:30
and targeting it
to 15- to 20-year-olds online
to 15- to 20-year-olds online
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对白人至上音乐有兴趣
09:34
that have an interest in white power music
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生活在曼切斯特的在线用户。
09:36
and live specifically in Manchester.
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我们可以通过这些营销工具
做到非常有针对性，
做到非常有针对性，
09:38
We can use these marketing tools
to be very specific,
to be very specific,
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这样一来我们知道什么时候
有人在浏览、播放
有人在浏览、播放
09:42
so that we know
when somebody's viewing, watching
when somebody's viewing, watching
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并参与内容互动。
09:44
and engaging with that content,
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我指的不是普通大众，
这不是我或者你——
这不是我或者你——
09:46
it's not just the average person,
it's not me or you --
it's not me or you --
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而是一个很特殊的，
我们想要针对的一个群体。
我们想要针对的一个群体。
09:48
it's a very specific audience
that we are looking to engage with.
that we are looking to engage with.
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09:52
Even more downstream, we developed
a pilot program called "One to One,"
a pilot program called "One to One,"
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在项目的下游，我们还开发了
一个叫做“一对一”的试验方案。
一个叫做“一对一”的试验方案。
我们让前极端主义者
09:56
where we took former extremists
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直接和一组标记过的新纳粹
还有伊斯兰教极端主义者
还有伊斯兰教极端主义者
09:58
and we had them reach out directly
to a group of labeled neofascists
to a group of labeled neofascists
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进行交流，
10:02
as well as Islamist extremists,
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并且直接把信息通过Facebook的
聊天工具发到他们的收件箱里，说，
聊天工具发到他们的收件箱里，说，
10:04
and put direct messages through Facebook
Messenger into their inbox, saying,
Messenger into their inbox, saying,
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“嘿，我看到你在做什么了。
我曾经也是那样，
我曾经也是那样，
10:08
"Hey, I see where you're going.
I've been there.
I've been there.
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如果你想谈一谈的话，随时找我。”
10:10
If you want to talk, I'm here."
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我们预计到这种沟通会带来死亡威胁。
10:12
Now, we kind of expected death threats
from this sort of interaction.
from this sort of interaction.
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一个前新纳粹份子跟你打招呼
是有些令人惊慌的。
是有些令人惊慌的。
10:15
It's a little alarming to have
a former neo-Nazi say, "Hey, how are you?"
a former neo-Nazi say, "Hey, how are you?"
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但事实上，我们发现大约60%
10:19
But actually, we found
that around 60 percent
that around 60 percent
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被接触的人回复了，
10:22
of the people reached out to responded,
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而其中又有大约60%
有持续性的参与，
有持续性的参与，
10:24
and of that, around another 60 percent
had sustained engagement,
had sustained engagement,
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意味着他们在和最难以接触的人
10:28
meaning that they were
having conversations
having conversations
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谈论他们正在经历的事情，
10:30
with the hardest people to reach
about what they were going through,
about what they were going through,
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种下怀疑的种子，
10:34
planting seeds of doubt
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并提供给他们替代话题，
10:35
and giving them alternatives
for talking about these subjects,
for talking about these subjects,
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那真的很重要。
10:38
and that's really important.
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10:41
So what we're trying to do
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我们在尝试
开诚布公的谈论意想不到的部分。
10:43
is actually bring
unlikely sectors to the table.
unlikely sectors to the table.
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我们有世界各地优秀的活动家，
10:46
We have amazing activists
all over the world,
all over the world,
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但很多时候，
他们的消息不是策略性的，
他们的消息不是策略性的，
10:48
but oftentimes,
their messages are not strategic
their messages are not strategic
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或者他们并不能真正接触
他们想接触的人群。
他们想接触的人群。
10:50
or they don't actually reach
the audiences they want to reach.
the audiences they want to reach.
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所以我们与前极端分子的关系网合作，
10:53
So we work with networks
of former extremists.
of former extremists.
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我们与世界各地的年轻人关系网合作。
10:56
We work with networks of young people
in different parts of the world.
in different parts of the world.
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我们与艺术家、创意人士和营销专家
10:59
And we work with them
to bring the tech sector to the table
to bring the tech sector to the table
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一起谈论技术部分的问题，
11:02
with artists and creatives
and marketing expertise
and marketing expertise
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这样我们就能共同应对
更强大、更具挑战性的
更强大、更具挑战性的
11:05
so that we can actually have
a more robust and challenging of extremism
a more robust and challenging of extremism
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极端主义。
11:10
that works together.
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11:12
So I would say
that if you are in the audience
that if you are in the audience
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我认为如果你在观众席中，
而且你恰巧是一名平面设计师，
11:14
and you happen to be a graphic designer,
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或者诗人，市场专家，
11:17
a poet, a marketing expert,
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公关人员，
11:19
somebody that works in PR,
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喜剧演员——
11:21
a comedian --
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你可能不觉得这是你的领域，
11:22
you might not think
that this is your sector,
that this is your sector,
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但事实上，你现在所有的技巧
11:25
but actually, the skills
that you have right now
that you have right now
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可能恰恰是我们需要用来
11:27
might be exactly what is needed
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有效的对抗极端主义的。
11:29
to help challenge extremism effectively.
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谢谢。
11:32
Thank you.
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（掌声）
11:33
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Erin Marie Saltman - Policy researcherDr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
Why you should listen
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman's background and expertise includes both Far Right and Islamist extremist processes of radicalization within a range of regional and socio-political contexts. Her research and publications have focused on the evolving nature of online extremism and terrorism, gender dynamics within violent extremist organizations and youth radicalization. Saltman has previously held senior research positions at Quilliam Foundation and the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, where she managed international programs. She has also worked with local activists, artists and techies to challenge violent extremism.
As Facebook's Counterterrorism Policy Manager based in London, Saltman regularly speaks with both governments and NGOs on issues related to how Facebook counters terrorism and violent extremism. She has also helped establish the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, bringing together leading industry partners (Facebook, Google, Microsoft and Twitter) with smaller startups and tech companies to create cross-platform knowledge sharing, technology solutions and research.
Saltman remains a Research Fellow at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. She is a graduate of Columbia University (BA) and University College London (MA and PhD). View her articles and publications here.
Erin Marie Saltman | Speaker | TED.com