TEDSummit 2019
Jochen Wegner: What happened when we paired up thousands of strangers to talk politics
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In spring 2019, more than 17,000 Europeans from 33 countries signed up to have a political argument with a complete stranger. They were part of "Europe Talks," a project that organizes one-on-one conversations between people who disagree -- sort of like a Tinder for politics. Editor Jochen Wegner shares the unexpected things that happened when people met up to talk -- and shows how face-to-face discussions could get a divided world to rethink itself.
Jochen Wegner - Journalist
Jochen Wegner edits Zeit Online, the website of German weekly "Die Zeit," which prizes deep dives into cultural issues. Full bio
Jochen Wegner edits Zeit Online, the website of German weekly "Die Zeit," which prizes deep dives into cultural issues. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Now, this is Joanna.
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Joanna works at a university in Poland.
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And one Saturday morning at 3am,
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she got up, packed her rucksack
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and traveled more than
a thousand kilometers,
a thousand kilometers,
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only to have a political argument
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with a stranger.
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His name is Christof,
and he's a customer manager from Germany.
and he's a customer manager from Germany.
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And the two had never met before.
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They only knew that they were
totally at odds over European politics,
totally at odds over European politics,
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over migration, or the relationship
to Russia or whatever.
to Russia or whatever.
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And they were arguing for almost one day.
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And after that, Joanna sent me
a somewhat irritating email.
a somewhat irritating email.
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"That was really cool, and I enjoyed
every single minute of it!"
every single minute of it!"
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01:00
(Laughter)
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So these are Tom from the UK
and Nils from Germany.
and Nils from Germany.
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They also were strangers,
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and they are both supporters
of their local football team,
of their local football team,
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as you may imagine, Borussia Dortmund
and Tottenham Hotspurs.
and Tottenham Hotspurs.
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And so they met on the very spot
where football roots were invented,
where football roots were invented,
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on some field in Cambridge.
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And they didn't argue about football,
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but about Brexit.
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And after talking for many hours
about this contentious topic,
about this contentious topic,
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they also sent a rather unexpected email.
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"It was delightful, and we both
enjoyed it very much."
enjoyed it very much."
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(Laughter)
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So in spring 2019,
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more than 17,000 Europeans
from 33 countries
from 33 countries
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signed up to have a political argument.
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Thousands crossed their borders to meet
a stranger with a different opinion,
a stranger with a different opinion,
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and they were all part of a project
called "Europe Talks."
called "Europe Talks."
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Now, talking about politics
amongst people with different opinions
amongst people with different opinions
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has become really difficult,
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not only in Europe.
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Families are splitting,
friends no longer talk to each other.
friends no longer talk to each other.
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We stay in our bubbles.
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And these so-called filter bubbles
are amplified by social media,
are amplified by social media,
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but they are not,
in the core, a digital product.
in the core, a digital product.
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The filter bubble has always been there.
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It's in our minds.
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As many studies repeatedly have shown,
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we, for example, ignore effects
that contradict our convictions.
that contradict our convictions.
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So correcting fake news
is definitely necessary,
is definitely necessary,
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but it's not sufficient
to get a divided society
to get a divided society
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to rethink itself.
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Fortunately, according to
at least some research,
at least some research,
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there may be a simple way
to get a new perspective:
to get a new perspective:
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a personal one-on-one discussion
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with someone who doesn't
have your opinion.
have your opinion.
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It enables you to see
the world in a new way,
the world in a new way,
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through someone else's eyes.
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Now, I'm the editor of "ZEIT ONLINE,"
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one of the major digital
news organizations in Germany.
news organizations in Germany.
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And we started what became "Europe Talks"
as a really modest editorial exercise.
as a really modest editorial exercise.
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As many journalists,
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we were impressed by Trump and by Brexit,
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and Germany was getting divided, too,
especially over the issue of migration.
especially over the issue of migration.
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So the arrival of more than
a million refugees in 2015 and 2016
a million refugees in 2015 and 2016
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dominated somewhat the debate.
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And when we were thinking
about our own upcoming election in 2017,
about our own upcoming election in 2017,
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we definitely knew that we had to reinvent
the way we were dealing with politics.
the way we were dealing with politics.
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So digital nerds that we are,
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we came up with obviously
many very strange digital product ideas,
many very strange digital product ideas,
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one of them being a Tinder for politics --
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(Laughter)
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a dating platform for political opposites,
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a tool that could help get people
together with different opinions.
together with different opinions.
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And we decided to test it
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and launched what techies would call
a "minimum viable product."
a "minimum viable product."
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So it was really simple.
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We called it "Deutschland spricht" --
"Germany Talks" --
"Germany Talks" --
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and we started with that in May 2017.
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And it was really simple.
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We used mainly Google Forms,
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a tool that each and every one of us here
can use to make surveys online.
can use to make surveys online.
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And everywhere in our content,
we embedded simple questions like this:
we embedded simple questions like this:
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"Did Germany take in too many refugees?"
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You click yes or no.
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We asked you more questions, like,
"Does the West treat Russia fairly?"
"Does the West treat Russia fairly?"
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or, "Should gay couples
be allowed to marry?"
be allowed to marry?"
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And if you answered all these questions,
we asked one more question:
we asked one more question:
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"Hey, would you like to meet a neighbor
who totally disagrees with you?"
who totally disagrees with you?"
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(Laughter)
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So this was a really simple experiment
with no budget whatsoever.
with no budget whatsoever.
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We expected some
hundred-ish people to register,
hundred-ish people to register,
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and we planned to match them
by hand, the pairs.
by hand, the pairs.
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And after one day,
1,000 people had registered.
1,000 people had registered.
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And after some weeks,
12,000 Germans had signed up
12,000 Germans had signed up
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to meet someone else
with a different opinion.
with a different opinion.
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So we had a problem.
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(Laughter)
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We hacked a quick and dirty algorithm
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that would find
the perfect Tinder matches,
the perfect Tinder matches,
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like people living as close as possible
having answered the questions
having answered the questions
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as differently as possible.
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We introduced them via email.
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And, as you may imagine,
we had many concerns.
we had many concerns.
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Maybe no one would show up in real life.
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Maybe all the discussions
in real life would be awful.
in real life would be awful.
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Or maybe we had an axe murderer
in our database.
in our database.
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(Laughter)
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But then, on a Sunday in June 2017,
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something beautiful happened.
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Thousands of Germans met in pairs
and talked about politics peacefully.
and talked about politics peacefully.
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Like Anno.
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He's a former policeman who's against --
or was against -- gay marriage,
or was against -- gay marriage,
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and Anne, she's an engineer who lives
in a domestic partnership
in a domestic partnership
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with another woman.
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And they were talking
for hours about all the topics
for hours about all the topics
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where they had different opinions.
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At one point, Anno told us later,
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he realized that Anne was hurt
by his statements about gay marriage,
by his statements about gay marriage,
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and he started to question
his own assumptions.
his own assumptions.
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And after talking for three hours,
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Anne invited Anno to her summer party,
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and today, years later,
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they still meet from time to time
and are friends.
and are friends.
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So our algorithm matched,
for example, this court bailiff.
for example, this court bailiff.
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He's also a spokesperson of the right-wing
populist party AfD in Germany,
populist party AfD in Germany,
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and this counselor for pregnant women.
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She used to be an active member
of the Green Party.
of the Green Party.
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We even matched this professor
and his student.
and his student.
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(Laughter)
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It's an algorithm.
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(Laughter)
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We also matched a father-in-law
and his very own daughter-in-law,
and his very own daughter-in-law,
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because, obviously, they live close by
but have really different opinions.
but have really different opinions.
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So as a general rule,
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we did not observe, record,
document the discussions,
document the discussions,
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because we didn't want
people to perform in any way.
people to perform in any way.
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But I made an exception.
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I took part myself.
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And so I met in my trendy Berlin
neighborhood called Prenzlauer Berg,
neighborhood called Prenzlauer Berg,
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I met Mirko.
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This is me talking to Mirko.
Mirko didn't want to be in the picture.
Mirko didn't want to be in the picture.
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He's a young plant operator,
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and he looked like
all the hipsters in our area,
all the hipsters in our area,
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like with a beard and a beanie.
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We were talking for hours,
and I found him to be a wonderful person.
and I found him to be a wonderful person.
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And despite the fact that we had
really different opinions
really different opinions
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about most of the topics --
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maybe with the exception
of women's rights,
of women's rights,
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where I couldn't comprehend
his thoughts --
his thoughts --
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it was really nice.
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After our discussion, I Googled Mirko.
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And I found out that in his teenage years,
he used to be a neo-Nazi.
he used to be a neo-Nazi.
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So I called him and asked,
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"Hey, why didn't you tell me?"
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And he said, "You know, I didn't tell you
because I want to get over it.
because I want to get over it.
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I just don't want
to talk about it anymore."
to talk about it anymore."
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I thought that people with
a history like that could never change,
a history like that could never change,
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and I had to rethink my assumptions,
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as did many of the participants
who sent us thousands of emails
who sent us thousands of emails
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and also selfies.
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No violence was recorded whatsoever.
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(Laughter)
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And we just don't know
if some of the pairs got married.
if some of the pairs got married.
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(Laughter)
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But, at least, we were really excited
and wanted to do it again,
and wanted to do it again,
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especially in version 2.0,
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wanted to expand the diversity
of the participants,
of the participants,
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because obviously in the first round,
they were mainly our readers.
they were mainly our readers.
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And so we embraced our competition
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and asked other media outlets to join.
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We coordinated via Slack.
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And this live collaboration
among 11 major German media houses
among 11 major German media houses
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was definitely a first in Germany.
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The numbers more than doubled:
28,000 people applied this time.
28,000 people applied this time.
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And the German president --
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you see him here
in the center of the picture --
in the center of the picture --
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became our patron.
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And so, thousands of Germans met again
in the summer of 2018
in the summer of 2018
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to talk to someone else
with a different opinion.
with a different opinion.
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Some of the pairs we invited
to Berlin to a special event.
to Berlin to a special event.
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And there, this picture was taken,
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until today my favorite symbol
for "Germany Talks."
for "Germany Talks."
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You see Henrik,
a bus driver and boxing trainer,
a bus driver and boxing trainer,
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and Engelbert, the director
of a children's help center.
of a children's help center.
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They answered all of the seven questions
we asked differently.
we asked differently.
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They had never met before this day,
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and they had a really intensive discussion
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and seemed to get along anyway
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with each other.
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So this time we also wanted to know
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if the discussion would have
any impact on the participants.
any impact on the participants.
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So we asked researchers
to survey the participants.
to survey the participants.
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And two-thirds of the participants said
that they learned something
that they learned something
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about their partner's attitudes.
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Sixty percent agreed
that their viewpoints converged.
that their viewpoints converged.
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The level of trust in society
seemed also higher after the event,
seemed also higher after the event,
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according to the researchers.
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Ninety percent said that
they enjoyed their discussion.
they enjoyed their discussion.
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Ten percent said they didn't
enjoy their discussion,
enjoy their discussion,
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eight percent only because,
simply, their partner didn't show up.
simply, their partner didn't show up.
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(Laughter)
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After "Germany Talks," we got approached
by many international media outlets,
by many international media outlets,
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and we decided this time to build
a serious and secure platform.
a serious and secure platform.
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We called it "My Country Talks."
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And in this short period of time,
"My Country Talks" has already been used
"My Country Talks" has already been used
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for more than a dozen
local and national events
local and national events
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like "Het grote gelijk" in Belgium
or "Suomi puhuu" in Finland
or "Suomi puhuu" in Finland
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or "Britain Talks" in the UK.
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And as I mentioned at the beginning,
we also launched "Europe Talks,"
we also launched "Europe Talks,"
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together with 15
international media partners,
international media partners,
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from the "Financial Times" in the UK
to "Helsingin Sanomat" in Finland.
to "Helsingin Sanomat" in Finland.
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Thousands of Europeans met
with a total stranger
with a total stranger
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to argue about politics.
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So far, we have been approached
by more than 150 global media outlets,
by more than 150 global media outlets,
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and maybe someday there will be
something like "The World Talks,"
something like "The World Talks,"
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with hundreds of thousands
of participants.
of participants.
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But what matters here are not the numbers,
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obviously.
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What matters here is ...
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Whenever two people meet
to talk in person for hours
to talk in person for hours
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without anyone else listening,
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they change.
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And so do our societies.
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They change little by little,
discussion by discussion.
discussion by discussion.
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What matters here is that we relearn
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how to have these
face-to-face discussions,
face-to-face discussions,
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without anyone else listening,
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with a stranger.
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Not only with a stranger
we are introduced to
we are introduced to
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by a Tinder for politics,
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but also with a stranger in a pub
or in a gym or at a conference.
or in a gym or at a conference.
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So please meet someone
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and have an argument
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and enjoy it very much.
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Thank you.
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(Applause)
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Wow!
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(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jochen Wegner - JournalistJochen Wegner edits Zeit Online, the website of German weekly "Die Zeit," which prizes deep dives into cultural issues.
Why you should listen
Jochen Wegner never thought he could make a living out of writing, yet ultimately he found himself editing Zeit Online, one of Germany's major media websites. With a team of 150, Zeit Online delivers around-the-clock information about breaking and developing stories, distinguished by deep reporting and data visualizations. Zeit also hosts a number of Germany's most popular podcasts.
By taking journalism beyond reporting and into the realm of real-time discussion, Wegner is creating tools that could change the political climate by encouraging wide varieties of people to engage in public discourse. His "My Country Talks" platform organizes personal, one-on-one conversations between people from all over the ideological map, inviting them to find common ground between viewpoints that are at first seemingly irreconcilable.
Jochen Wegner | Speaker | TED.com