TED Salon Verizon
Fadi Chehadé and Bryn Freedman: What everyday citizens can do to claim power on the internet
法迪 · 切哈德 和 布林 · 弗里德曼: 公民如何重申对互联网的权力
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技术架构师法迪 · 切哈德帮助建立了互联网的基础设施——像域名系统和IP地址标准这样的关键环节。今天，他专注于为社会寻找从技术中获益的方法。布林 · 弗里德曼和法迪 · 切哈德之间的讨论涵盖了西方和中国在人工智能方面的竞争，以及科技公司如何成为权力的管家，去塑造生活和经济，还有普通公民该如何重申对互联网的权力。
Fadi Chehadé - Technologist, entrepreneur
Fadi Chehadé is focused on finding ways for society to benefit from technology and strengthening international cooperation in the digital space. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Fadi Chehadé is focused on finding ways for society to benefit from technology and strengthening international cooperation in the digital space. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
布林 · 弗里德曼（BF）：
你是说，在20世纪
你是说，在20世纪
00:12
Bryn Freedman: So you said
that in the 20th century,
that in the 20th century,
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00:15
global power was in the hands
of government.
of government.
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全球权力掌握在政府手中。
00:18
At the beginning of this digital century,
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在这个数字世纪之初，
00:21
it really moved to corporations
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它转移到了公司中，
00:23
and that in the future,
it would move to individuals.
it would move to individuals.
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并且在未来，它会转移到个人手里。
00:26
And I've interviewed a lot of people,
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我也采访了很多人，
他们说你错了，
00:28
and they say you're wrong,
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00:30
and they are betting on the companies.
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他们把赌注压在了公司上面。
00:32
So why are you right,
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那么为什么你是对的，
00:34
and why are individuals going to win out?
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为什么个人将会胜出？
00:37
Fadi Chehadé: Because companies
cater to individuals,
cater to individuals,
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法迪 · 切哈德（FC）：
因为公司是为个人服务的，
因为公司是为个人服务的，
我们作为公民
00:39
and we as the citizenry
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00:42
need to start understanding
that we have a big role
that we have a big role
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需要开始认识到，
我们在塑造这个世界
我们在塑造这个世界
00:46
in shaping how the world
will be governed, moving forward.
will be governed, moving forward.
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如何被管理以及向前发展上，
发挥着重要作用。
发挥着重要作用。
00:49
Yes, indeed, the tug of war right now
is between governments,
is between governments,
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是的，确实，当前的
博弈存在于政府之间，
博弈存在于政府之间，
00:53
who lost much of their power to companies
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这些政府被公司夺去了很多权力，
00:57
because the internet is not built
around the nation-state system
around the nation-state system
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因为互联网不是
围绕着政府掌握权力的
围绕着政府掌握权力的
民族-国家系统建立的。
01:01
around which governments have power.
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01:03
The internet is transnational.
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互联网是跨国界的。
01:05
It's not international,
and it's not national,
and it's not national,
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它不是国际性的，也不是全国性的，
这就让公司变得非常强大。
01:08
and therefore the companies
became very powerful.
became very powerful.
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01:12
They shape our economy.
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它们塑造了我们的经济。
01:13
They shape our society.
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它们塑造了我们的社会。
01:15
Governments don't know what to do.
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政府不知道如何应对这种局面。
01:17
Right now, they're reacting.
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目前他们正在想办法应对。
我担心如果我们没有，
作为一个公民——
作为一个公民——
01:19
And I fear that if we do not,
as the citizenry --
as the citizenry --
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01:22
which are, in my opinion,
the most important leg of that stool --
the most important leg of that stool --
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我认为公民是这个系统中
最重要的部分——
最重要的部分——
01:27
don't take our role,
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不去扮演我们的角色的话，
01:29
then you are right.
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那么你是对的。
那些诋毁者，或者那些告诉你
企业会占上风的人，是对的。
企业会占上风的人，是对的。
01:30
The detractors, or the people telling you
that businesses will prevail, are right.
that businesses will prevail, are right.
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这的确会发生。
01:35
It will happen.
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01:36
BF: So are you saying that individuals
will force businesses
will force businesses
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BF：所以你是说个人会迫使企业，
或企业会被迫做出反应，
01:40
or business will be forced
to be responsive,
to be responsive,
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01:42
or is there a fear that they won't be?
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还是担心它们不会？
FC：我认为它们会的。
01:46
FC: I think they will be.
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01:47
Look at two weeks ago,
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看看两周前，
01:49
a small company called Skip
winning over Uber and Lyft and everyone
winning over Uber and Lyft and everyone
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一家叫Skip的小公司打败了
优步和Lyft及其他所有公司，
优步和Lyft及其他所有公司，
01:53
to actually get the license
for the San Francisco scooter business.
for the San Francisco scooter business.
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拿到了旧金山滑板车生意的牌照。
01:59
And if you read why did Skip win,
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假如你读过为什么
Skip会赢的文章（就知道），
Skip会赢的文章（就知道），
02:01
because Skip listened
to the people of San Francisco,
to the people of San Francisco,
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因为Skip倾听旧金山居民的心声——
市民们厌倦了随处可见的滑板车——
02:04
who were tired of scooters
being thrown everywhere,
being thrown everywhere,
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02:07
and actually went to the city and said,
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并跟市民们说，
02:09
"We will deploy the service,
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“我们会部署这个服务，
02:12
but we will respond
to the people's requirements
to the people's requirements
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但我们会按人们的要求去做，
02:15
that we organize ourselves
around a set of rules."
around a set of rules."
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根据一套规则来组织运营。”
02:18
They self-governed their behavior,
and they won the contract
and they won the contract
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他们对公司的行为进行自我管理，
从一些行业巨头手中
从一些行业巨头手中
02:21
over some very powerful companies.
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赢得了合同。
02:23
BF: So speaking of guidelines
and self-governance,
and self-governance,
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BF：那么谈到指导和自我管理，
你一生都致力于为互联网制定
02:27
you've spent an entire lifetime
creating guidelines and norms
creating guidelines and norms
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02:31
for the internet.
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指导方针和规范。
你认为这些日子结束了吗？
02:33
Do you think those days are over?
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02:34
Who is going to guide,
who is going to control,
who is going to control,
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谁来指导，谁来调控，
02:37
and who is going to create those norms?
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谁来制定这些规范呢？
02:39
FC: The rules that govern
the technology layers of the internet
the technology layers of the internet
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FC：管理互联网技术层面的规则
02:45
are now well put in place,
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现在已经到位，
02:47
and I was very busy for a few years
setting those rules
setting those rules
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我忙了好些年去制定
02:51
around the part of the internet
that makes the internet one network.
that makes the internet one network.
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让互联网成为一个网络的这部分规则。
02:55
The domain-name system, the IP numbers,
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域名系统，IP地址，
02:58
all of that is in place.
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所有这些都到位了。
02:59
However, as we get now
into the upper layers of the internet,
into the upper layers of the internet,
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然而，随着我们现在
进入互联网上层应用，
进入互联网上层应用，
03:04
the issues that affect
me and you every day --
me and you every day --
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那些每天影响你我的——
03:06
privacy, security, etc. --
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隐私，安全，等等——
不幸的是，为这一切制定
规范的体系并没到位。
规范的体系并没到位。
03:09
the system to create norms for those
unfortunately is not in place.
unfortunately is not in place.
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03:17
So we do have an issue.
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所以我们确实面临着一些问题。
03:18
We have a system
of cooperation and governance
of cooperation and governance
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我们现在切实地需要建立
03:22
that really needs to be created right now
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一个合作和治理的体系，
这样一来，公司，政府和公民就能够
03:25
so that companies, governments
and the citizenry can agree
and the citizenry can agree
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在这个新的数字世界
将如何发展上达成共识。
将如何发展上达成共识。
03:30
how this new digital world
is going to advance.
is going to advance.
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BF：那么是什么激励了数字公司呢？
03:32
BF: So what gives
a digital company any incentive?
a digital company any incentive?
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比如说——我想到了Facebook——
03:35
Let's say -- Facebook comes to mind --
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03:37
they would say they have
their users' best interests at heart,
their users' best interests at heart,
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他们说会牢记用户的最佳利益，
03:40
but I think a lot of people
would disagree with that.
would disagree with that.
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但我觉得很多人并不认同这点。
03:43
FC: It's been very difficult to watch
how tech companies have reacted
how tech companies have reacted
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FC：科技公司如何回应公民
对它们的技术所做出的反应，
对它们的技术所做出的反应，
对这一过程的观察
一直以来都是个难题。
一直以来都是个难题。
03:49
to the citizenry's response
to their technologies.
to their technologies.
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03:52
And some of them, two or three years ago,
basically dismissed it.
basically dismissed it.
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在两三年前，一些公司的
做法基本上就是无视它。
做法基本上就是无视它。
我在很多会议室听到的词是：
“我们只是个科技公司。
“我们只是个科技公司。
03:56
The word that I heard in many board rooms
is, "We're just a technology platform.
is, "We're just a technology platform.
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04:01
It's not my issue
if my technology platform
if my technology platform
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如果我的科技平台导致
04:04
causes families
to go kill their girls in Pakistan.
to go kill their girls in Pakistan.
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巴基斯坦的家人杀害他们的女儿，
这并不是我的问题。
这并不是我的问题。
这不是我的问题，是他们的问题。
04:07
It's not my issue. It's their problem.
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04:09
I just have a technology platform."
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我只是个科技平台。”
04:11
Now, I think we are now entering a stage
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现在，我认为我们正进入这样一个阶段，
04:15
where companies are starting to realize
this is no longer sustainable,
this is no longer sustainable,
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公司开始意识到
这种做法并不是长久之计，
这种做法并不是长久之计，
他们开始看到来自大众，
04:20
and they're starting to see the pushback
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用户，公民的阻力，
04:22
that's coming
from people, users, citizens,
from people, users, citizens,
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04:25
but also governments
that are starting to say,
that are starting to say,
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但也有政府开始表态，
“不能这样。”
04:28
"This cannot be."
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04:30
So I think there is a maturity
that is starting to set,
that is starting to set,
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所以我认为开始去
制定规则的时机成熟了，
制定规则的时机成熟了，
04:35
especially in that Silicon Valley area,
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尤其在硅谷地区，
04:38
where people are beginning to say,
"We have a role."
"We have a role."
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人们已经开始说，“我们有责任。”
所以当我跟这些领导者们
交谈时，我会说，
交谈时，我会说，
04:42
So when I speak to these leaders, I say,
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04:45
"Look, you could be the CEO,
a very successful CEO of a company,
a very successful CEO of a company,
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“看，你可以成为CEO，
一个公司非常成功的CEO，
一个公司非常成功的CEO，
04:49
but you could also be a steward."
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但你也可以成为一个管理者。”
04:51
And that's the key word.
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这是个关键词。
04:52
"You could be a steward
of the power you have
of the power you have
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“你可以成为权力的管理者，
04:56
to shape the lives and the economies
of billions of people.
of billions of people.
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可以去塑造数十亿人的
生活和经济面貌。
生活和经济面貌。
05:00
Which one do you want to be?"
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你想成为哪一个？
05:03
And the answer is,
it's not one or the other.
it's not one or the other.
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然而答案并不是非此即彼。
05:06
This is what we are missing right now.
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这是我们现在所缺失的。
05:09
So when an adult like Brad Smith,
the president of Microsoft,
the president of Microsoft,
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所以当像布拉德 · 史密斯
那样的成年人，微软总裁，
那样的成年人，微软总裁，
几个月前说，
05:13
said a few months ago,
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05:14
"We need a new set of Geneva Conventions
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“我们需要一套新的日内瓦公约
05:17
to manage the security
of the digital space,"
of the digital space,"
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来管理数字空间的安全，”
05:20
many of the senior leaders
in Silicon Valley
in Silicon Valley
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很多硅谷的高管
05:23
actually spoke against his words.
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其实是持相反意见的。
05:27
"What do you mean, Geneva Convention?
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“你什么意思，日内瓦公约？
我们不需要任何日内瓦公约，
我们可以很好地进行自我管理。”
我们可以很好地进行自我管理。”
05:29
We don't need any Geneva Conventions.
We self-regulate."
We self-regulate."
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05:32
But that mood is changing,
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但那种情绪正在改变。
05:34
and I'm starting to see many leaders say,
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我开始看到很多的领导者说，
05:37
"Help us out."
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“帮助我们。”
05:39
But here lies the conundrum.
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但难题恰恰就在这里。
05:41
Who is going to help those leaders
do the right thing?
do the right thing?
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谁来帮助这些领导者做正确的事情？
05:44
BF: So who is going to help them?
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BF：那么谁将去帮助他们呢？
05:47
Because I'd love
to interview you for an hour,
to interview you for an hour,
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我很希望能有一个小时的采访时间，
05:51
but give me your biggest fear
and your best hope
and your best hope
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不过长话短说吧——请告诉我，
你对如何解决这个问题的
你对如何解决这个问题的
05:56
for how this is going to work out.
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最大的担忧和最大的希望是什么。
06:00
FC: My biggest hope
is that we will become each stewards
is that we will become each stewards
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FC：我最大的希望是，
我们都会成为这个新的
我们都会成为这个新的
06:07
of this new digital world.
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数字世界的管理员。
06:09
That's my biggest hope,
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那是我最大的希望，
06:10
because I do think, often,
we want to put the blame on others.
we want to put the blame on others.
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因为我确实认为，
我们往往习惯于指责别人。
我们往往习惯于指责别人。
06:15
"Oh, it's these CEOs.
They're behaving this way."
They're behaving this way."
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“哦，就是因为这些
CEO们的这般作为。”
CEO们的这般作为。”
“这些政府做得还不够。”
06:18
"These governments are not doing enough."
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但是我们自己呢？
06:20
But how about us?
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06:21
How is each of us actually taking
the responsibility to be a steward
the responsibility to be a steward
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我们每个人实际上又承担了多少管理
我们所生活的数字空间的责任呢？
06:27
of the digital space we live in?
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06:29
And one of the things I've been pushing
on university presidents
on university presidents
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我一直在敦促大学校长们
做的一件事是，我们需要
让每一个将要写下一行代码，
让每一个将要写下一行代码，
06:32
is we need every engineering and science
and computer science student
and computer science student
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或者设计下一个物联网
设备的工程科学
设备的工程科学
06:36
who is about to write
the next line of code
the next line of code
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06:39
or design the next IoT device
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和计算机科学领域的学生
06:41
to actually have in them
a sense of responsibility and stewardship
a sense of responsibility and stewardship
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切实地拥有责任感，并有意识地管理
06:46
towards what they're building.
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他们所构建东西。
所以我建议，我们应该
立下一个新的誓言，
立下一个新的誓言，
06:48
So I suggested we create a new oath,
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就像希波克拉底誓言一样，
06:50
like the Hippocratic Oath,
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06:52
so that every student
entering an engineering program
entering an engineering program
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这样每个进入工程专业的学生
06:55
takes a technocratic oath or a wisdom oath
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需要承诺一个技术官僚的誓言，
或者一个智慧的誓言，
或者一个智慧的誓言，
06:58
or some oath of commitment
to the rest of us.
to the rest of us.
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或者对我们其他人做出承诺的誓言。
07:01
That's my best hope, that we all rise.
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这就是我最大的希望——
我们都能站出来。
我们都能站出来。
07:04
Because governments and businesses
will fight over this power game,
will fight over this power game,
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因为政府和企业会为
这场权力游戏而战，
这场权力游戏而战，
但我们在哪儿呢？
07:09
but where are we?
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07:10
And unless we play into that power table,
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除非我们参与其中，
07:15
I think we'll end up in a bad place.
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否则我认为我们会陷入困境。
说到我最大的担忧，
07:18
My biggest fear?
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07:21
My biggest fear,
to be very tactical today,
to be very tactical today,
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我最大的担忧，今天用
非常战术性的话来说，
非常战术性的话来说，
07:24
what is keeping me up at night
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让我夜不能寐的是
07:26
is the current war between
the West, the liberal world,
the West, the liberal world,
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当前在人工智能领域，发生在西方，
07:33
and China,
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自由世界和中国
07:34
in the area of artificial intelligence.
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之间的战争。
07:37
There is a real war going on,
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一场真正的战争在进行，
07:39
and for those of us who have lived
through the nuclear nonproliferation age
through the nuclear nonproliferation age
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对于我们这些经历过核不扩散时代
07:44
and saw how people agreed
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和看到人们如何同意避免
07:46
to take some very dangerous
things off the table,
things off the table,
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一些非常危险的东西的人来说，
07:50
well, the Carnegie Endowment
just finished a study.
just finished a study.
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卡内基基金会刚刚完成了一项研究。
07:54
They talked to every country
that made nuclear weapons
that made nuclear weapons
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他们跟每个制造核武器的国家交谈，
07:57
and asked them,
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询问他们，
07:59
"Which digital 'weapon'
would you take off the table
would you take off the table
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“在对付别人的学校和医院时，
08:04
against somebody else's
schools or hospitals?"
schools or hospitals?"
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你会避免使用哪个数字‘武器’？”
08:07
And the answer --
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而答案——
08:09
from every nuclear power --
to this question was,
to this question was,
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来自每个核国家的答案是——
08:13
nothing.
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没有。（即什么都可以用）
08:15
That's what I'm worried about ...
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这就是我所担心的…
08:18
The weaponization of the digital space,
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数字空间的武器化，
08:21
and the race to get there.
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和以此为目标的军备竞赛。
08:22
BF: Well, it sounds like
you've got a lot of work to do,
you've got a lot of work to do,
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BF：听起来你有很多工作要做，
08:25
and so do the rest of us.
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我们其他所有人也是。
08:27
Fadi, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
I really appreciate it.
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法迪，非常感谢，
感谢你的精彩回答。
感谢你的精彩回答。
FC：谢谢。
08:29
FC: Thank you.
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（鼓掌）
08:31
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Fadi Chehadé - Technologist, entrepreneurFadi Chehadé is focused on finding ways for society to benefit from technology and strengthening international cooperation in the digital space.
Why you should listen
Fadi Chehadé is a serial entrepreneur who has founded and led several companies in the digital space including Vocado LLC (acquired by Oracle in 2018) and Viacore (purchased by IBM in 2006). He is an advisory board member with the World Economic Forum's Center for the Fourth Industrial Revolution that focuses on maximizing the benefits of science and technology for society. Chehadé is also a member of the UN Secretary-General’s High-Level Panel on Digital Cooperation that will advance proposals to strengthen international cooperation in the digital space.
Chehadé serves on the corporate boards of Sentry Data Systems and Interactions LLC and the advisory board of the University of Southern California’s Center on Public Diplomacy. For two years, he was a Senior Advisor to Prof. Klaus Schwab, Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, where he focused on public-private cooperation to address issues affecting the digital economy. As former President and CEO of ICANN, the global authority managing the Internet's logical infrastructure and ensuring "one" internet for the world, Chehadé guided its historic transition to an independent transnational institution governed jointly by private, public and civic stakeholders.
Fadi Chehadé | Speaker | TED.com
Bryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Why you should listen
Award-winning TV producer, investigative journalist and author, Bryn Freedman joined TED in 2014 as the editorial director and curator for the TED Institute. In her work with TED, Freedman creates and executes TED conference events for Fortune 500 companies, overseeing all editorial content as well as managing speaker coaches and determining both the topics for each talk and the overall conference theme. In addition to curating these events, she works as an executive speaker coach for professionals who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Freedman is also co-founder of Voices4Freedom, an international organization aimed at eradicating slavery through education and media.
Bryn Freedman | Speaker | TED.com