TEDxMileHigh
Christian Picciolini: My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out
克里斯蒂安 · 皮乔里尼: 我是如何陷入了美国的新纳粹运动 ─ 和我是如何脱离出来的
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14 岁时，克里斯蒂安 · 皮乔里尼从天真的少年成为了白人至上主义者─不久后，还成为了美国第一个新纳粹光头党的领导人。他是如何被极端化，又是如何最终脱离了这个运动？在这个充满勇气的演讲中，皮乔里尼分享了对于所有仇恨都适用的，令人惊讶、违背直觉的解决方式。
Christian Picciolini - Counter-extremism specialist
Christian Picciolini is dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism. Full bio
Christian Picciolini is dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
My journey away from violent extremism
began 22 years ago,
began 22 years ago,
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我走出暴力极端主义的旅程
开始于 22 年前，
开始于 22 年前，
00:18
when I denounced racism
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当我公然谴责了种族主义
00:20
and left the American white
supremacist skinhead movement
supremacist skinhead movement
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并离开了我曾经协助建立的
00:22
that I had helped build.
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美国白人至上光头党。
00:24
(Cheers and applause)
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（欢呼与掌声）
00:30
I was just 22 years old at the time,
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当时我只有 22 岁，
00:33
but I had already spent eight years,
from the time I was 14 years old,
from the time I was 14 years old,
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但是我已经花了 8 年，
从我 14 岁开始，
从我 14 岁开始，
00:37
as one of the earliest
and youngest members
and youngest members
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成为了最早、最年轻的成员之一，
00:39
and an eventual leader within
America's most violent hate movement.
America's most violent hate movement.
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最后还成为了美国最暴力的
仇恨运动的领导人。
仇恨运动的领导人。
00:44
But I wasn't born into hate;
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但我并不是生于仇恨；
事实正好相反。
00:47
in fact, it was quite the opposite.
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00:52
I had a relatively normal childhood.
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我的童年还算挺正常的。
00:55
My parents are Italian immigrants
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我的父母是意大利移民，
00:57
who came to the United States
in the mid-1960s
in the mid-1960s
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在 1960 年代中期来到的美国，
在芝加哥的南城安顿了下来。
01:00
and settled on the South Side of Chicago,
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01:03
where they eventually met,
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他们在那里相识，
01:05
and opened a small beauty shop.
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并开了一家小型美容店。
01:08
Right after I was born,
things got a little bit more difficult.
things got a little bit more difficult.
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我出生以后没多久，
生活就变得更困难一些。
生活就变得更困难一些。
01:11
They struggled to survive with raising
a young family and a new business,
a young family and a new business,
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他们艰难地生活着，
要养活一个年轻的家庭和生意，
要养活一个年轻的家庭和生意，
01:16
often working seven days a week,
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常常一周要工作 7 天，
01:19
14 hours a day,
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一天 14 个小时，
01:21
taking on second and third jobs
just to earn a meager living.
just to earn a meager living.
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还要兼职多份工作
只为赚取一点微薄的生活费。
只为赚取一点微薄的生活费。
01:25
And quality time with my parents
was pretty nonexistent.
was pretty nonexistent.
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和父母相处的宝贵时光
基本是不存在的。
基本是不存在的。
01:29
Even though I knew
they loved me very much,
they loved me very much,
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虽然我知道他们非常爱我，
01:32
growing up, I felt abandoned.
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但成长的过程中，
我觉得我被抛弃了。
我觉得我被抛弃了。
01:35
I was lonely, and I started to withdraw,
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我很孤独，我开始远离一切。
01:39
and then I started to resent my parents
and become very angry.
and become very angry.
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接着，我开始憎恨我的父母，
我变得很愤怒。
我变得很愤怒。
01:44
And as I was growing up,
through my teenage years,
through my teenage years,
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我慢慢长大，在青春期，
01:47
I started to act out to try and get
attention from my parents.
attention from my parents.
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我开始做出格的事
以试图得到我父母的注意力。
以试图得到我父母的注意力。
01:53
And one day, when I was 14,
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有一天，我 14 岁时，
01:55
I was standing in an alley,
and I was smoking a joint,
and I was smoking a joint,
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我正站在一个小巷里，吸着大麻，
01:59
and a man who was twice my age,
with a shaved head and tall black boots,
with a shaved head and tall black boots,
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一名光头男子，年纪有我的两倍，
穿着黑色长靴，
穿着黑色长靴，
02:05
came up to me,
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走到了我面前，
02:07
and he snatched the joint from my lips.
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从我的唇边夺走了大麻。
02:10
Then he put his hand on my shoulder
and he looked me in the eyes,
and he looked me in the eyes,
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然后他把手放到了我的肩上，
看着我的眼睛，
看着我的眼睛，
02:14
and he said,
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说到：
02:16
"That's what the communists
and the Jews want you to do
and the Jews want you to do
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“这正是共产党和犹太人想让你做的，
02:19
to keep you docile."
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把你变得容易驯服。”
02:23
I was 14 years old,
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当时我 14 岁，
我还在交换棒球卡片，
看“欢乐时光”（电视剧）－－
看“欢乐时光”（电视剧）－－
02:24
I'd been trading baseball cards
and watching "Happy Days" --
and watching "Happy Days" --
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我并不太知道什么是犹太人。
02:27
I didn't really know what a Jew was.
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02:29
(Laughter)
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（笑）
02:31
It's true.
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这是真的。
02:32
And the only communist that I knew
was the bad Russian guy
was the bad Russian guy
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而我唯一知道的共产党员是
在我最喜欢的“洛奇”系列电影中的
在我最喜欢的“洛奇”系列电影中的
02:36
in my favorite Rocky movie.
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俄罗斯反派。
02:38
(Laughter)
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（笑）
02:40
And since I'm here
baring my soul with you,
baring my soul with you,
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既然我是在这里坦白，
02:43
I can reveal that I did not even know
what the word "docile" meant.
what the word "docile" meant.
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我可以告诉你当时我也不知道
“驯服”这个词是什么意思。
“驯服”这个词是什么意思。
02:47
(Laughter)
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（笑）
02:48
Dead serious.
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我是认真的。
02:50
But it was as if this man in this alley
had offered me a lifeline.
had offered me a lifeline.
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但那个巷子里的男人
像是给了我一条生命线。
像是给了我一条生命线。
02:55
For 14 years, I'd felt
marginalized and bullied.
marginalized and bullied.
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14 年来，我曾感到
被边缘化，被欺负。
被边缘化，被欺负。
03:00
I had low self-esteem.
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我的自尊心很低。
03:02
And frankly, I didn't know
who I was, where I belonged,
who I was, where I belonged,
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说实话，我并不知道我是谁，
我归属于哪里，
我归属于哪里，
03:06
or what my purpose was.
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我的人生目的是什么。
我很迷茫。
03:08
I was lost.
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03:10
And overnight, because this man
had pulled me in,
had pulled me in,
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一夜间，因为这个男人拽了我一把，
03:14
and I had grabbed onto that lifeline
with every fiber of my being.
with every fiber of my being.
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我用尽全身抓紧了那条生命线。
03:19
I had gone from "Joanie Loves Chachi"
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我已从“乔安妮爱恰奇“ （电视剧）
03:24
to full-blown Nazi.
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走向了彻头彻尾的纳粹。
03:26
Overnight.
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一夜间。
03:29
I started to listen to the rhetoric
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我开始倾听他们的言论，
03:32
and believe it.
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并相信它。
03:34
I started to watch very closely
as the leaders of this organization
as the leaders of this organization
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我开始密切的观察着
这个组织的领导者们，
这个组织的领导者们，
03:38
would target vulnerable young people
who felt marginalized
who felt marginalized
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他们会针对弱势的、
感到自己被边缘化的年轻人，
感到自己被边缘化的年轻人，
03:44
and then draw them in
with promises of paradise
with promises of paradise
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然后许下自己以后会违背的
天堂般的承诺
天堂般的承诺
03:48
that were broken.
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来吸引他们。
03:51
And then I started to recruit myself.
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接着，我自己也开始招募新人。
03:55
I started to do that by making
white-power music.
white-power music.
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为了招募人，我开始制作
宣传白人至上的音乐。
宣传白人至上的音乐。
04:00
And soon, I became the leader
of that infamous organization
of that infamous organization
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不久，我成为了
那个声名狼藉的组织的领导者，
那个声名狼藉的组织的领导者，
04:05
that was led by that man in that alley
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之前的领导人就是那个巷子里
04:08
who recruited me that day,
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招募了我的男人，
04:10
who was America's first neo-Nazi skinhead
and who had radicalized me.
and who had radicalized me.
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他是美国第一个新纳粹光头党成员，
并极端化了我。
并极端化了我。
04:15
For the next eight years,
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在接下来的八年中，
04:17
I believed the lies that I had been fed.
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我相信了那些喂给我的谎言。
04:21
And though I saw
no evidence of it whatsoever,
no evidence of it whatsoever,
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尽管我没有看到任何证据，
04:24
I didn't hesitate to blame
every Jewish person in the world
every Jewish person in the world
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但我毫不犹豫的责怪了
世界上每一个犹太人，
世界上每一个犹太人，
04:28
for what I thought was a white,
European genocide
European genocide
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因为我以为他们在用多文化的事程
04:33
being promoted by them
through a multiculturalist agenda.
through a multiculturalist agenda.
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推进欧洲白人的种族屠杀。
04:38
I blamed people of color
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我怪罪了有色人种，
04:40
for the crime and violence
and the drugs in the city,
and the drugs in the city,
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怪他们造成了城市里的
犯罪、暴力、和毒品，
犯罪、暴力、和毒品，
04:45
completely neglecting the fact
that I was committing acts of violence
that I was committing acts of violence
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完全忽视了事实上，我自己也
天天都在犯下暴力行为。
天天都在犯下暴力行为。
04:49
on a daily basis,
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而且在很多时候，
04:51
and that in many cases,
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04:53
it was white supremacists
who were funneling drugs
who were funneling drugs
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是白人至上主义者
把毒品带到了城市内部。
04:56
into the inner cities.
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04:58
And I blamed immigrants
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我怪罪了移民，
05:01
for taking jobs from white Americans,
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怪他们抢走了美国白人的工作，
05:04
completely neglecting the fact that
my parents were hardworking immigrants
my parents were hardworking immigrants
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完全忽视了事实上，
我父母也是辛勤劳作的移民，
我父母也是辛勤劳作的移民，
05:09
who struggled to survive,
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需要奋斗以生存，
05:13
despite not getting help
from anybody else.
from anybody else.
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即使没有任何他人的帮助。
05:17
For the next eight years,
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在接下来的八年里，
05:20
I saw friends die,
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我看到了朋友死去，
05:23
I saw others go to prison
and inflict untold pain
and inflict untold pain
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看到了他人进入监狱
并施加无法形容的痛苦
并施加无法形容的痛苦
到无数个受害者
和他们家人的生活。
和他们家人的生活。
05:27
on countless victims
and their families' lives.
and their families' lives.
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05:31
I heard horrific stories
from young women in the movement,
from young women in the movement,
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我从参与运动中年轻的女性
听到过可怕的故事，
听到过可怕的故事，
05:35
who'd been brutally raped by the very men
they were conditioned to trust,
they were conditioned to trust,
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她们被自己习惯性信任的男人强奸，
05:41
and I myself committed acts
of violence against people,
of violence against people,
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而我自己也对他人犯下了暴力行为，
05:45
solely for the color of their skin,
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只因为他们的肤色，
05:47
who they loved,
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他们爱的人，
05:49
or the god that they prayed to.
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或者他们祈祷的神。
05:53
I stockpiled weapons for what I thought
was an upcoming race war.
was an upcoming race war.
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我积攒了武器，
为了我以为会到来的种族战争。
为了我以为会到来的种族战争。
05:57
I went to six high schools;
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我去了六所高中：
05:59
I was kicked out of four of them,
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我被四所开除，
06:00
one of them, twice.
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其中一所被开除了两次。
06:03
And 25 years ago, I wrote
and performed racist music
and performed racist music
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25 年前，我编写并表演了
种族歧视的音乐。
种族歧视的音乐。
06:10
that found its way
to the internet decades later
to the internet decades later
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它十多年后传到了网上，
06:12
and partially inspired
a young white nationalist
a young white nationalist
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并部分的启发了
一个年轻的白人民族主义者
一个年轻的白人民族主义者
06:16
to walk into a sacred Charleston,
South Carolina, church
South Carolina, church
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走进一个神圣的教堂，
在查尔斯顿，南卡罗来纳州
在查尔斯顿，南卡罗来纳州
06:20
and senselessly massacre
nine innocent people.
nine innocent people.
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然后毫无感觉的
屠杀了九个无辜的人。
屠杀了九个无辜的人。
06:28
But then my life changed.
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但接着，我的人生改变了。
06:31
At 19 years old, I met a girl
who was not in the movement,
who was not in the movement,
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19 岁时，我遇到了一个
不在这个运动中的女孩。
不在这个运动中的女孩。
06:35
who didn't have a racist bone in her body,
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她身体里没有一根种族歧视的骨头。
06:39
and I fell in love with her.
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然后我爱上了她。
06:42
And at 19, we got married,
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19 岁时，我们结了婚，
06:44
and we had our first son.
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然后有了我们第一个儿子。
06:48
And when I held my son in my arms
in the delivery room that day,
in the delivery room that day,
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当那天我在产房中
用双手抱起我儿子时，
用双手抱起我儿子时，
06:52
not only did I reconnect
with some of the innocence that I had lost
with some of the innocence that I had lost
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我不只重新找回了一部分
我 14 岁时丢到的纯真，
我 14 岁时丢到的纯真，
06:57
at 14 years old,
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06:59
but it also began to challenge
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我也开始质疑
07:01
the very important things that drew
me to the movement to begin with:
me to the movement to begin with:
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最一开始把我吸引进
这个运动的重要因素：
这个运动的重要因素：
07:05
identity, community and purpose --
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身分，集体，和目的－－
07:08
things that I had been
struggling with as a young boy.
struggling with as a young boy.
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当我还是小男孩时
一直在挣扎的东西。
一直在挣扎的东西。
07:11
And now, I struggled with the concept
of who I was again.
of who I was again.
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而现在，我再一次
挣扎于 “ 我是谁 ” 的概念。
挣扎于 “ 我是谁 ” 的概念。
07:17
Was I this neo-Nazi hatemonger,
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我是个煽动仇恨的新纳粹，
07:22
or was I a caring father and husband?
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还是一个有爱心的父亲和丈夫？
07:26
Was my community the one
that I had manufactured around me
that I had manufactured around me
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我的集体是那个我自己捏造出来的、
07:30
to boost my own ego,
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为了膨胀自我的集体，
07:32
because I felt self-hatred for myself
and I wanted to project it onto others,
and I wanted to project it onto others,
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因为我曾经恨着自己
并想把这恨意投射到他人身上，
并想把这恨意投射到他人身上，
07:38
or was it the one
that I had physically given life to?
that I had physically given life to?
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还是那个给了我生命的社会？
07:43
Was my purpose to scorch the earth
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我的目的是把一切变成焦土，
07:48
or was it to make it
a better place for my family?
a better place for my family?
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还是让我的家庭活得更好？
07:52
And suddenly, like a ton of bricks hit me,
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突然间，就像一吨砖块
砸到了我身上，
砸到了我身上，
07:57
I became very confused with
who I'd been for the last eight years.
who I'd been for the last eight years.
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我变的非常困惑，
不知道过去 8 年的我是谁。
不知道过去 8 年的我是谁。
08:04
And if only I'd been brave enough
to walk away at that moment,
to walk away at that moment,
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如果当时的我能足够勇敢地走开，
08:07
to understand what the struggle was
that was happening inside of me,
that was happening inside of me,
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能理解在我内心所发生的斗争，
08:13
then maybe tragedy
could have been averted.
could have been averted.
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那悲剧就可能会被避免。
08:17
Instead, I did compromise.
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1919
但是我选择了妥协。
08:19
I took myself off the streets
for the benefit of my family,
for the benefit of my family,
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为了家庭，我离开了街头，
08:23
because I was nervous that maybe
I could go to jail or end up dead,
I could go to jail or end up dead,
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3976
因为担心我可能会进监狱或者死去，
08:27
and they would have to fend
for themselves.
for themselves.
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导致我的家人会需要为自己谋生。
08:30
So I stepped back as a leader,
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所以我从领导者的位置退了一步，
08:31
and instead I opened a record store
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然后开了一家唱片店。
08:35
that I was going to sell
white-power music in, of course,
white-power music in, of course,
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4151
当然，我打算卖
宣传白人至上的音乐，
宣传白人至上的音乐，
08:39
because I was importing it in from Europe.
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2121
因为我在从欧洲进口这些唱片。
08:42
But I knew that if I was just
a racist store selling racist music
a racist store selling racist music
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4136
不过我知道如果只是一个
种族歧视的店家贩卖种族歧视的音乐
种族歧视的店家贩卖种族歧视的音乐
08:46
the community would not
allow me to be there.
allow me to be there.
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社区肯定不会容许我把店开在那里。
08:49
So I decided I was going to also
stock the shelves with other music,
stock the shelves with other music,
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所以我决定也在架子上放些其它唱片，
08:54
like punk rock and heavy metal
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像是朋克摇滚、重金属、
08:56
and hip-hop.
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1247
和嘻哈。
08:58
And while the white-power music
that I was selling
that I was selling
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2531
虽然我贩卖的白人至上音乐
09:01
was 75 percent of my gross revenue,
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占到了我总利润的 75 %，
09:03
because people were driving in
from all over the country to buy it
from all over the country to buy it
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因为人们会从全国各地开车到
09:07
from the only store that was selling it,
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这唯一一家卖这种音乐的店，
09:10
I also had customers come in
to buy the other music.
to buy the other music.
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但我也有顾客来买其它音乐。
09:15
And eventually, they started
to talk to me.
to talk to me.
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3123
久而久之，他们也开始和我交谈。
09:19
One day, a young black teen came in,
156
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4455
一天，一个年轻的
黑人青年走了进来，
黑人青年走了进来，
09:23
and he was visibly upset.
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1739
他看起来就很不开心。
09:27
And I decided to ask him what was wrong.
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2330
而我决定问问他出了什么事。
09:30
And he told me that his mother
had been diagnosed with breast cancer.
had been diagnosed with breast cancer.
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3943
他告诉我他的母亲
被诊断为患有乳腺癌。
被诊断为患有乳腺癌。
09:35
And suddenly, this young black teenager,
160
563166
2989
忽然间，这个黑人青年，
09:38
who I'd never had a meaningful
conversation or interaction with,
conversation or interaction with,
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4565
一个我之前从来没有过
任何有意义的交谈或互动的人，
任何有意义的交谈或互动的人，
和我产生了联系，
09:43
I was able to connect with,
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1719
09:45
because my own mother
had been diagnosed with breast cancer,
had been diagnosed with breast cancer,
163
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4005
因为我自己的母亲
也被诊断患有乳腺癌，
也被诊断患有乳腺癌，
09:49
and I could feel his pain.
164
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2426
而我能感受到他的痛苦。
09:52
On another occasion, a gay couple
came in with their son,
came in with their son,
165
580712
3740
还有一次，一个同性恋情侣
和他们的儿子走了进来，
和他们的儿子走了进来，
09:56
and it was undeniable to me
that they loved their son
that they loved their son
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4917
而我无法否认他们爱着自己的儿子，
10:01
in the same profound ways
that I loved mine.
that I loved mine.
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589417
3544
就像我深深地爱着我儿子一样。
10:06
And suddenly, I couldn't rationalize
or justify the prejudice
or justify the prejudice
168
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4844
突然间，我无法再解释或合理化
10:11
that I had in my head.
169
599101
1434
之前脑海中的偏见。
10:13
I decided to pull the white-power
music from the inventory
music from the inventory
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601869
2812
我决定把白人至上的音乐从库存抽走，
10:16
when I became too embarrassed
to sell it in front of my new friends.
to sell it in front of my new friends.
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3359
因为我觉得在新朋友面前
卖这些音乐太惭愧了。
卖这些音乐太惭愧了。
10:20
And of course, the store
couldn't sustain itself,
couldn't sustain itself,
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2355
当然，我的店无法经营下去，
10:23
so I had to close it.
173
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1311
所以我把它关了。
10:25
At that same time, I lost
nearly everything in my life.
nearly everything in my life.
174
613343
4631
同时，我失去了
生命中几乎所有的东西。
生命中几乎所有的东西。
10:30
I used it as an opportunity to walk away
175
618484
2504
我把它用作一个机会
来离开我曾参与了 8 年的运动：
10:33
from the movement that
I'd been a part of for eight years,
I'd been a part of for eight years,
176
621012
2858
10:35
the only identity, community and purpose
that I'd really known for most of my life.
that I'd really known for most of my life.
177
623894
4402
我大半生唯一知道的
身分、集体、和目的。
身分、集体、和目的。
10:40
So I had nobody.
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628949
1586
我没有任何人。
10:43
I lost my livelihood
because I closed the store.
because I closed the store.
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631731
2596
我丢掉了生计，因为把店关了。
10:46
I didn't have a great relationship
with my parents, even though they tried.
with my parents, even though they tried.
180
634351
3986
我和父母的关系并不好，
虽然他们有过尝试。
虽然他们有过尝试。
10:50
And my wife and children left me,
181
638891
1997
我的妻子和孩子离开了我，
因为我并没有及早离开运动。
10:52
because I hadn't left the movement
and disengaged quickly enough.
and disengaged quickly enough.
182
640912
3665
10:58
And suddenly,
183
646040
1184
突然，
11:01
I didn't know who I was again,
184
649117
1931
我再一次不知道我是谁，
11:03
or where I fit in
185
651072
1260
我归属于哪里，
11:05
or what my purpose was supposed to be.
186
653044
2370
或者我的目的应该是什么。
11:08
I was miserable inside,
187
656034
2317
我的内心很痛苦，
11:10
and I often woke up in the morning
188
658959
2955
每天早上醒来时，
我常常希望我没有醒来。
我常常希望我没有醒来。
11:13
wishing that I hadn't.
189
661938
1484
11:17
About five years in,
190
665590
1740
大概五年后，
11:19
one of the few friends that I had
was concerned about my well-being,
was concerned about my well-being,
191
667354
3846
我少数几个朋友之一
很担忧我的身心健康，
很担忧我的身心健康，
11:23
and she came to me and she said,
192
671224
1883
所以她找到了我，然后说：
11:25
"You need to do something,
because I don't want to see you die."
because I don't want to see you die."
193
673131
3359
“你必须做点什么，
因为我不想看你死去。”
因为我不想看你死去。”
11:29
And she suggested that I go
apply for a job where she worked,
apply for a job where she worked,
194
677982
3628
她建议我去她工作的地方
申请一个职位，
申请一个职位，
11:33
at a company called IBM.
195
681634
1799
一个叫 IBM 的公司。
11:37
Yeah, I thought she was crazy, too.
196
685158
2053
是啊，我也以为她疯了。
11:39
(Laughter)
197
687235
1685
（笑）
11:40
Here I was, a closeted ex-Nazi
covered in hate tattoos.
covered in hate tattoos.
198
688944
4575
看看我，一个私底下
满身都是关于仇恨的刺青的前纳粹。
满身都是关于仇恨的刺青的前纳粹。
11:45
I didn't go to college.
199
693543
1232
我没上过大学。
11:46
I'd been kicked out of multiple
high schools multiple times.
high schools multiple times.
200
694799
4075
我曾被不止一所高中
开除过不止一次。
开除过不止一次。
11:52
I didn't even own a computer.
201
700071
1599
我甚至都没有电脑。
11:55
But I went in,
202
703384
1256
但我走了进去，
11:56
and somehow, miraculously, I got the job.
203
704664
3630
不知道这样，奇迹般地，
我得到了一份工作。
我得到了一份工作。
12:01
I was thrilled.
204
709636
1566
我非常激动。
12:04
And then I became terrified to learn
205
712218
2637
接着，我知道了一件让我惶恐的事：
12:06
that they'd actually be putting me
back at my old high school,
back at my old high school,
206
714879
3561
他们安排我到
我原来的高中，
我原来的高中，
12:10
the same one I got kicked out of twice,
207
718464
2475
就是那个把我开除了两次的高中，
12:13
to install their computers.
208
721892
1449
去安装他们的电脑。
12:16
This was a high school
where I had committed acts of violence
where I had committed acts of violence
209
724483
3507
在这所高中，我曾犯下暴力行为
12:20
against students, against faculty;
210
728014
2452
对学生，对老师；
12:22
where I had protested out in front
of the school for equal rights for whites
of the school for equal rights for whites
211
730490
4140
我曾在学校的门口抗议
来争取白人平权，
来争取白人平权，
12:26
and even had a sit-in in the cafeteria
212
734654
3079
我甚至在食堂静坐抗议
12:29
to try and demand a white student union.
213
737757
2494
来试图取得一个白人学生会。
12:34
And of course, as karma would have it,
214
742039
2608
不出所料，按着命运的因果报应，
就在我进学校的前几个小时，
12:37
within the first couple of hours,
215
745289
1835
12:39
who walks right by me
but Mr. Johnny Holmes,
but Mr. Johnny Holmes,
216
747676
3922
走过我身边的
是Johnny Holmes先生，
是Johnny Holmes先生，
12:43
the tough black security guard
I had gotten in a fistfight with,
I had gotten in a fistfight with,
217
751622
3386
我曾经打过架的强悍黑人保安。
12:48
that got me kicked out the second time
218
756016
2040
这事导致我第二次被开除，
12:50
and led out in handcuffs from the school.
219
758080
2414
我还戴着手铐离开了学校。
12:53
He didn't recognize me,
220
761763
1615
他没有认出来我，
12:56
but I saw him,
221
764251
1232
但是我看见了他，
12:58
and I didn't know what to do.
222
766404
1402
而我不知道该做什么。
我僵在了那里；我是一个成年人的，
离开了运动很多年了，
离开了运动很多年了，
12:59
I was frozen; I was this grown man now,
years out of the movement,
years out of the movement,
223
767830
3643
13:03
and I was sweating and I was trembling.
224
771497
2081
而我当时满身是汗，全身发抖。
13:06
But I decided I had to do something.
225
774533
2154
但我决定必须做点什么。
13:09
And I decided I needed to suffer
under the weight of my past,
under the weight of my past,
226
777902
3799
我决定我需要背负过去的重量，
为它遭受痛苦，
为它遭受痛苦，
13:13
because for five years
I had tried to outrun it.
I had tried to outrun it.
227
781725
2671
因为五年来我一直试图避开它。
13:17
I'd tried to make new friends
and cover my tattoos with long sleeves,
and cover my tattoos with long sleeves,
228
785105
3304
我曾尝试交新的朋友，
用长袖衣服遮住我的刺青，
用长袖衣服遮住我的刺青，
13:20
and I wouldn't admit it
229
788433
1167
而我不敢承认，
13:21
because I was afraid of being judged
230
789624
1822
因为我害怕被评判，
13:23
the same way I had judged other people.
231
791470
2241
就像我当初评判他人一样。
13:26
Well, I decided I was going to chase
Mr. Holmes out to the parking lot --
Mr. Holmes out to the parking lot --
232
794862
3984
于是，我决定去追霍姆斯先生
一直到停车场－－
一直到停车场－－
13:30
probably not the smartest
decision that I made.
decision that I made.
233
798870
2503
大概不是我做过的最聪明的决定。
13:33
(Laughter)
234
801397
1271
（笑）
当我找到他的时候，
他正要上车，
他正要上车，
13:34
But when I found him,
he was getting into his car,
he was getting into his car,
235
802692
2514
13:37
and I tapped him on the shoulder.
236
805230
1973
于是我拍了下他的肩膀。
13:39
And when he turned around
and he recognized me,
and he recognized me,
237
807227
3156
当他转过身来并认出我时，
13:42
he took a step back because he was afraid.
238
810407
2567
他因为恐惧往后退了一步。
13:46
And I didn't know what to say.
239
814907
1627
而我不知道该说什么。
13:50
Finally, the words came out of my mouth,
and all I could think to say was,
and all I could think to say was,
240
818088
4040
终于，字句从我的嘴中脱出，
而所有我能想说的是：
而所有我能想说的是：
13:54
"I'm sorry."
241
822152
1161
“我很抱歉。”
13:56
And he embraced me,
242
824096
1476
然后他拥抱了我，
13:58
and he forgave me.
243
826391
1429
并原谅了我。
14:01
And he encouraged me to forgive myself.
244
829877
2966
他还鼓励我原谅自己。
14:06
He recognized that it wasn't the story
of some broken go-nowhere kid
of some broken go-nowhere kid
245
834073
6090
他看出了这不只是一个破碎的、
一无所成的孩子的故事，
一无所成的孩子的故事，
14:12
who was going to just
join a gang and go to prison.
join a gang and go to prison.
246
840187
3016
一个只会加入黑帮、蹲监狱的人。
14:15
He knew that this was the story
of every young person who was vulnerable,
of every young person who was vulnerable,
247
843227
4523
他知道这是每一个
容易受伤的年轻人的故事，
容易受伤的年轻人的故事，
14:19
who was searching for identity,
community and purpose,
community and purpose,
248
847774
2808
他们在寻找自己的
身分、集体、和目标，
身分、集体、和目标，
14:22
and then hit a wall
249
850606
1406
碰壁了，
14:24
and was unable to find it
250
852036
1722
找不回来了，
14:25
and went down a dark path.
251
853782
1747
然后走上了黑暗的道路。
14:29
And he made me promise one thing,
252
857482
2093
他让我承诺了一件事：
14:31
that I would tell my story
to whoever would listen.
to whoever would listen.
253
859599
3228
我要把我的故事
讲给任何一个想听的人。
讲给任何一个想听的人。
14:34
That was 18 years ago,
254
862851
1582
这是 18 年前，
14:36
and I've been doing it ever since.
255
864457
1798
从那时起我就一直在做。
（掌声）
14:38
(Applause)
256
866737
4874
14:49
You might be asking yourself right now:
257
877309
1968
你现在可能会问自己：
14:51
How does a good kid from
a hardworking immigrant family
a hardworking immigrant family
258
879301
3022
一个从勤劳工作的
移民家庭来的好孩子
移民家庭来的好孩子
14:54
end up going down such a dark path?
259
882347
2843
是怎么走下了这么一条黑暗的道路？
14:57
One word: potholes.
260
885214
2680
一个词：凹洞。
15:00
That's right. Potholes.
261
888508
1718
没错，凹洞。
15:02
I had a lot of potholes when I was kid.
262
890250
2533
我小时候有着很多凹洞。
15:05
We all had them --
263
893582
1545
我们都曾有过－－
15:07
you know, the things in life that we hit
264
895151
2870
你知道的，我们人生中撞到的东西
15:10
that invariably just kind of
nudge us off our path,
nudge us off our path,
265
898045
2926
无可避免的把我们
轻轻推离自己的道路，
轻轻推离自己的道路，
15:12
and if they remain unresolved
266
900995
1682
而如果它们一直没被解决，
15:15
or untreated
267
903442
1239
没被治愈，
15:17
or not dealt with,
268
905697
1421
没被处理，
15:19
sometimes we can get dangerously lost
down pretty dark corridors.
down pretty dark corridors.
269
907792
3763
我们有时会危险地
走丢到黑暗的角落。
走丢到黑暗的角落。
15:24
Potholes can be things like trauma,
270
912228
2183
凹洞可以是创伤、
15:26
abuse, unemployment,
271
914435
2417
虐待、失业、
15:29
neglect,
272
917667
1159
忽视、
15:31
untreated mental health conditions,
273
919652
2192
没被治疗的心理疾病、
15:33
even privilege.
274
921868
1191
甚至特权。
15:35
And if we hit enough potholes
on our journey in life,
on our journey in life,
275
923942
3148
而如果我们在人生的旅途上
碰到了很多凹洞，
碰到了很多凹洞，
15:39
and we don't have the resources
or the help to navigate around them
or the help to navigate around them
276
927696
3740
并且没有资源或者协助
来帮我们绕开它们
来帮我们绕开它们
15:43
or to pull us out,
277
931460
1217
或把我们拉出来，
15:46
well, sometimes good people
end up doing bad things.
end up doing bad things.
278
934184
3173
有的时候好人也会做出坏事。
15:52
One such person
who had potholes is Darrell.
who had potholes is Darrell.
279
940026
3139
其中一个有凹洞的人是Darrell。
15:55
Darrell is from upstate New York.
280
943189
1791
达雷尔来自纽约州北部。
15:57
He had read my memoir,
281
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他读过我的回忆录，
15:59
and he was really upset about the ending.
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对结局感到非常失望。
16:02
You see, I'd gotten out of the movement
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你看，我已经离开了运动，
16:04
and he was still in.
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而他还在其中。
16:05
And he emailed me and he said,
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于是他发了封电子邮件给我，说：
16:09
"I didn't really like the way
that turned out."
that turned out."
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“我不是很喜欢最后结局的发展。”
16:11
And I said, "Well, I'm sorry."
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然后我说，“喔，我很抱歉。”
16:13
(Laughter)
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（笑）
16:15
"But if you want to talk about it,
we could certainly do that."
we could certainly do that."
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“但是如果你想聊聊，
我们当然可以。”
我们当然可以。”
16:18
And after a couple of weeks
of going back and forth with Darrell,
of going back and forth with Darrell,
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和Darrell来往回信的几周中，
16:21
I learned he was a 31-year-old
military veteran who had been injured
military veteran who had been injured
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我了解到他是一个 31 岁的
因伤退役的军人，
因伤退役的军人，
16:26
and was really angry about
not being able to go to Afghanistan
not being able to go to Afghanistan
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他很气愤自己不能
去阿富汗杀穆斯林。
去阿富汗杀穆斯林。
16:30
to kill Muslims.
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16:32
And one day on the phone,
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一天，在电话上，
16:34
he told me that he had seen
a Muslim man in the park praying,
a Muslim man in the park praying,
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他告诉我他看到了
一个穆斯林男子在公园祈祷，
一个穆斯林男子在公园祈祷，
16:38
and that all he wanted to do
was kick him in the face.
was kick him in the face.
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而他唯一想做的
是一脚踢到他的脸上。
是一脚踢到他的脸上。
16:43
I flew to Buffalo the next day,
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第二天，我飞到了水牛城，
16:45
and I sat down with Darrell,
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和Darrell坐下来谈，
16:48
and I asked him,
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然后我问他：
16:50
"Have you ever met
a Muslim person before?"
a Muslim person before?"
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“你曾认识过任何一个穆斯林吗？”
16:54
And he said, "No!
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他说，“没有！
16:55
Why the hell would I want to do that?
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我为什么见鬼了要这么做？
16:57
They're evil. I don't want
anything to do with them."
anything to do with them."
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他们是邪恶的。
我不想和他们扯上任何关系。”
我不想和他们扯上任何关系。”
17:01
I said, "OK."
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我说，“ 好吧。”
17:02
So I excused myself,
and I went into the bathroom
and I went into the bathroom
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于是我走进了洗手间，
17:04
and I took my phone out in the bathroom,
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拿出了我的手机，
17:07
and I Googled the local mosque,
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谷歌搜索了当地的清真寺，
17:09
and I called them very quietly
from the bathroom,
from the bathroom,
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然后我在从洗手间
很小声地打电话给他们，
很小声地打电话给他们，
17:12
and I said, "Excuse me,
imam, I need a favor.
imam, I need a favor.
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我说：“不好意思，
伊玛目 ［领袖］，我需要帮忙。
伊玛目 ［领袖］，我需要帮忙。
17:16
I have a Christian man
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我这有一个基督教徒
17:17
who would really love to learn more
about your religion."
about your religion."
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非常想了解你们的宗教。”
17:20
(Laughter)
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（笑）
17:22
"Do you mind if we stop by?"
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“你会介意我们去拜访吗？”
17:26
Well, it took some convincing
for Darrell to go,
for Darrell to go,
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我花了不少功夫来说服Darrell，
17:29
but finally we got there,
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不过最终我们到了那里。
17:31
and when I knocked on the door,
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我敲了敲门，
17:32
the imam said he only had
15 minutes left for us,
15 minutes left for us,
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伊玛目说他只有 15 分钟留给我们，
17:35
because he was preparing
for a prayer service.
for a prayer service.
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因为他需要准备祷告。
17:38
I said, "We'll take it."
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我说，“ 没问题。”
17:40
We went in,
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我们走了进去，
17:41
and two and a half hours later,
we came out after hugging and crying
we came out after hugging and crying
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两个半小时后，
我们已经历了泪水和拥抱，
我们已经历了泪水和拥抱，
17:46
and, very strangely,
bonding over Chuck Norris for some reason.
bonding over Chuck Norris for some reason.
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3972
很奇怪的，我们还因为查克·诺里斯
拉近了距离。［动作片演员］
拉近了距离。［动作片演员］
17:50
(Laughter)
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我不知道那是怎么回事，
17:51
I don't know what it was about that,
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17:53
but that's what happened.
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但它就是发生了。
17:56
And I'm happy to say now
that Darrell and the imam,
that Darrell and the imam,
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现在我可以很开心的说，
你经常能看到
你经常能看到
17:59
you can often find them
at the local falafel stand,
at the local falafel stand,
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达雷尔和伊玛目在当地的
中东小吃摊一起吃午饭。
中东小吃摊一起吃午饭。
18:02
having lunch together.
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1615
18:03
(Applause)
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3765
（掌声）
18:12
You see, it's our disconnection
from each other.
from each other.
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你可以看出，
问题是人们缺乏联系。
问题是人们缺乏联系。
18:14
Hatred is born of ignorance.
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仇恨来源于无知。
恐惧是其父，孤立是其母。
18:17
Fear is its father,
and isolation is its mother.
and isolation is its mother.
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当我们不理解一个东西时，
我们常常会害怕它，
我们常常会害怕它，
18:21
When we don't understand something,
we tend to be afraid of it,
we tend to be afraid of it,
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1089353
3977
18:25
and if we keep ourselves from it,
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而如果我们让自己远离它，
18:27
that fear grows, and sometimes,
it turns into hatred.
it turns into hatred.
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这恐惧会加大，有时会变成仇恨。
18:31
Since I've left the movement,
I've helped over a hundred people
I've helped over a hundred people
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自从离开运动，我已经
帮助了超过一百个人
帮助了超过一百个人
18:34
disengage from extremist movements,
from white supremacist groups --
from white supremacist groups --
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脱离极端主义运动，
白人至上群体－－
白人至上群体－－
18:37
(Applause)
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（掌声）
18:46
to even jihadist groups.
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1526
甚至是伊斯兰圣战主义者。
18:47
And the way I do that
is not by arguing with them,
is not by arguing with them,
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4557
我的做法并不是和他们争吵，
18:52
not by debating them,
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1517
不是和他们辩论，
18:53
not by even telling them they're wrong,
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2289
甚至不是跟他们说
他们哪里错了，
他们哪里错了，
18:56
even though, boy, I want to sometimes.
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尽管有时，天哪，我真的很想。
18:58
I don't do that.
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但我不这么做。
19:00
Instead, I don't push them away.
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2528
相反，我不会把他们推开，
19:02
I draw them in closer,
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1635
而是把他们拉近，
19:05
and I listen very closely
for their potholes,
for their potholes,
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4363
认真倾听他们的凹洞，
19:10
and then I begin to fill them in.
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然后开始把他们填满。
19:12
I try to make people more resilient,
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我试着让人们变得更有韧性，
19:14
more self-confident,
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1504
更自信，
19:16
more able to have skills
to compete in the marketplace
to compete in the marketplace
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1144841
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更有能力学习技能以在市场竞争，
这样他们就不必责怪其他人，
19:20
so that they don't have
to blame the other,
to blame the other,
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1148894
2672
19:24
the other that they've never met.
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1152764
1824
他们自己从来没见过的其他人。
19:27
I'd like to just leave you
with one last thing before I go.
with one last thing before I go.
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1155758
3800
在我走之前，
我想再留下最后一个想法。
我想再留下最后一个想法。
19:32
Of all the people I've worked with,
they will all tell you the same thing.
they will all tell you the same thing.
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所有我曾经帮助过的人
都会告诉你同样的东西。
都会告诉你同样的东西。
第一，他们成为极端主义者的原因
19:36
One, they became extremists
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1164462
3592
19:40
because they wanted to belong,
not because of ideology or dogma.
not because of ideology or dogma.
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1168078
3834
是因为他们想有所归属，
而不是因为什么理论或教义。
而不是因为什么理论或教义。
19:44
And second, what brought them out
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第二，把他们带出困境的
19:48
was receiving compassion
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1176290
1902
是得到同情，
19:50
from the people
they least deserved it from,
they least deserved it from,
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1178216
2343
从最不该同情他们的人，
19:53
when they least deserved it.
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1181247
1653
在他们最不配同情的时候。
19:54
(Applause)
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2097
（掌声）
19:57
So I would like
to leave you with a challenge:
to leave you with a challenge:
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所以我想留给各位一个挑战：
19:59
go out there today, tomorrow --
hopefully every day --
hopefully every day --
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走出去，
今天、明天、最好每天
今天、明天、最好每天
20:04
find somebody that you think
is undeserving of your compassion
is undeserving of your compassion
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找到一个你认为不值得你同情的人
20:08
and give it to them,
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1184
然后给他们同情。
20:10
because I guarantee you,
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因为我保证，
20:12
they're the ones who need it the most.
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1908
他们是最需要你的同情心的人。
20:14
Thank you very much.
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谢谢！
20:15
(Applause)
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1963
（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Christian Picciolini - Counter-extremism specialistChristian Picciolini is dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism.
Why you should listen
After leaving the white supremacist skinhead movement he helped build in America during the 1980s and 90s, Christian Picciolini earned a degree in international relations from DePaul University. He launched Goldmill Group, a global media and counter-extremism consulting firm. In 2016, he won an Emmy Award for his role in producing an anti-hate advertising campaign aimed at helping people disengage from violent extremist groups. His life since leaving the white-supremacist movement over two decades ago has been dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism by founding such organizations as ExitUSA and Life After Hate.
Picciolini has spoken all over the world, sharing his unique and extensive knowledge, teaching all who are willing to learn about building greater peace through empathy and compassion. His involvement in the early American skinhead movement is chronicled in his memoir WHITE AMERICAN YOUTH: My Descent into America’s Most Violent Hate Movement—and How I Got Out (Hachette). He is co-developing a television docu-series based on his work helping people disengage from violent ideologies.
Christian Picciolini | Speaker | TED.com