TEDxPeachtree
Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals
Frans de Waal: 動物的道德行為
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同理心、合作、公平和互惠，似乎都是人類關心其它個體的行為。然而 Frans de Waal 分享的一些測試靈長類和其它哺乳類動物行為的影片裏，我們驚訝地發現它們有很多與人類一樣的道得行為。
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
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我出生在荷蘭的希罗尼穆斯·波希
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
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畫家希罗尼穆斯·波希的姓 波希 指的就是這個地方
00:20
And so I've always been very fond of this painter
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我一直很喜歡這位
00:22
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
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15 世紀的畫家
00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
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我對他的道德觀非常感興趣
00:27
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
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他正好生在一個宗教影響力日漸衰弱的時代
00:30
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
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我想 他也會覺得有點疑惑
00:32
what would happen with society
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社會會怎樣發展
00:34
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
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要是沒有宗教，或者宗教響力不足的話
00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
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所以他畫了一幅非常著名的畫，叫"樂園"
00:40
which some have interpreted
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有些人認為這畫描繪的是
00:42
as being humanity before the Fall,
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阿當和夏娃被逐出伊甸園之前的人性
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
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或者是如果他們從未被逐出伊甸園的人性
00:47
And so it makes you wonder,
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所以這不禁讓人想問
00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
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如果人類沒有嚐禁果 那分辨是非的果實的話
00:52
and what kind of morality would we have?
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我們又會有怎樣的道德觀呢?
00:55
Much later, as a student,
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後來 那時我還是個學生
00:57
I went to a very different garden,
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我去了一個非常特別的公園
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem
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那是在荷蘭阿納姆的一個動物園
01:02
where we keep chimpanzees.
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那裏養著幾隻黑猩猩
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
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照片中的是年輕時候的我和小黑猩猩
01:06
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:09
And I discovered there
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在那裏我發現
01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.
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黑猩猩非常渴望權力 針對這點 我寫了一本書
01:14
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
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在當時很多研究都把重心
01:17
was on aggression and competition.
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放在動物的侵略性和競爭性
01:19
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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我就把動物界的全貌展現出來
01:21
and humanity included,
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其中包含了人性
01:23
was that deep down we are competitors,
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因為說到底 我們也都在互相競爭
01:25
we are aggressive,
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我們也有侵略性
01:27
we're all out for our own profit basically.
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基本上我們都在爭取自己的利益
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
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這是我出版的書
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
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我不知道黑猩猩讀懂了多少
01:34
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
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不過 看起來他們對這本書非常感興趣
01:39
Now in the process
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現在 在我做
01:41
of doing all this work on power and dominance
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關於權力、支配關係以及
01:43
and aggression and so on,
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侵略性等的研究過程之中
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
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我發現黑猩猩在爭鬥後會和好
01:48
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
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現在你看到的是兩隻剛打完架的公黑猩猩
01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
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最後 它們在樹上著彼此的手
01:54
And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree
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在我拍完這張照片的下一秒鐘 它們一起來到樹枝上
01:57
and they kissed and embraced each other.
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親吻和擁抱對方
01:59
Now this is very interesting
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我覺得非常有趣
02:01
because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,
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因為當時我只想著競爭和侵略
02:04
and so it wouldn't make any sense.
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所以這看起來完全沒道理
02:06
The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.
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重要的明明是輸贏
02:08
But why would you reconcile after a fight?
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那打完架為甚麼又要和好呢?
02:10
That doesn't make any sense.
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這實在說不通
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
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這是倭黑猩猩處理的方式 它們每件事都可以扯上性
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
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所以它們和好的方式是做愛
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
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這中間的道理是一樣的
02:19
The principle is that you have
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就是當你有一段
02:21
a valuable relationship
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很重要的關係
02:23
that is damaged by conflict,
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而這關係因為衝突而被破壞了
02:25
so you need to do something about it.
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所以你需要去處理這件事
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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所以我對整個動物界的看法
02:29
and including humans also,
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還有對人類的看法
02:31
started to change at that time.
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就在那時候開始有了轉變
02:33
So we have this image
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所以我們可以
02:35
in political science, economics, the humanities,
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從政治科學、經濟學、人文科學
02:37
philosophy for that matter,
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以及哲學的角度來看這整件事
02:39
that man is a wolf to man.
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人就像一匹狼
02:41
And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.
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天性其實是很惡劣
02:44
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
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我想這樣形容其實對狼是很不公平
02:47
The wolf is, after all,
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畢竟狼是
02:49
a very cooperative animal.
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一種很擅於合作的動物
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
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所以才會有那麼多人在家裏養狗
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
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因為狗也是非常擅於合作的
02:55
And it's really unfair to humanity,
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其實這對人性也是個不公平的描述
02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
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因為人性包含更多的是合作性和同理心
03:01
than given credit for.
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只是我們沒太強調而已
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
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所以我開始對這些問題產生興趣
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
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並且開始研究其它動物
03:07
So these are the pillars of morality.
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這是道德的支柱
03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
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如果你問，道德是基於什麼東西?
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
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這答案總是脫離不了兩個因素
03:15
One is reciprocity,
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一個是互惠
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
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與之關聯的是正義和公平
03:20
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
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另一個因素是同理心和同情心
03:22
And human morality is more than this,
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人類的道德比這複雜多了
03:25
but if you would remove these two pillars,
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不過要是沒有了這兩個支柱
03:27
there would be not much remaining I think.
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我想其它也沒剩下太多其它的了
03:29
And so they're absolutely essential.
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我想就不會有所謂的人性了
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
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讓我給大家舉幾個例子
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center
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這是 耶克斯靈長類動物中心在很久以前拍的影片
03:35
where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.
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人們在訓練黑猩猩互相合作
03:38
So this is already about a hundred years ago
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所以 大概是一百年前
03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
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人們就已經在做關於合作的實驗
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
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你可以看到這兩隻年輕的黑猩猩 它們有個箱子
03:47
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
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這箱子的重量 光靠其中一隻黑猩猩是拉不動的
03:50
And of course, there's food on the box.
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當然 箱子上面放了一些食物
03:52
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
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不然它們不會拉得那麼使勁
03:54
And so they're bringing in the box.
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它們現在正在拉那個箱子
03:56
And you can see that they're synchronized.
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你看 它們動作一致
03:58
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
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你可以看到它們同時使力 一起拉動箱子
04:01
It's already a big advance over many other animals
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這相對於其它動物 已經是一個很大的優勢了
04:04
who wouldn't be able to do that.
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很多動物都不能做到
04:06
And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
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接下來你會看到一個更有趣的畫面
04:08
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
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現在把兩隻黑猩猩中的其中一隻餵飽
04:11
So one of the two is not really interested
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所以這隻猩猩對拉箱子
04:13
in the task anymore.
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已經沒什麼興趣了
04:16
(Laughter)
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(笑)
04:23
(Laughter)
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(笑)
04:34
(Laughter)
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(笑)
04:50
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
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注意看最後發生甚麼事
04:56
(Laughter)
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(笑)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
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它幾乎拿走所有的食物了
05:09
(Laughter)
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(笑)
05:12
So there are two interesting parts about this.
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這裡有兩個很有趣的部分
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
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第一個是 右邊的這隻黑猩猩
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
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它很清楚它需要它的夥伴
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
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這說明它能理解合作的重要性
05:20
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
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第二個是 這個夥伴也願意幫助
05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
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即使它對那些食物已經不感興趣
05:25
Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.
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為什麼呢? 這該和互惠有關
05:28
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
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在靈長類和一些動物身上 其實有很多證據能證明
05:30
that they return favors.
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它們會報恩
05:32
So he will get a return favor
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所以在將來
05:34
at some point in the future.
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它會得到回報
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
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這就是動物之間相互幫助的原因
05:38
We do the same task with elephants.
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我們對大象也做了同樣的實驗
05:40
Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
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對大象做實驗可是很危險的
05:43
Another problem with elephants
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還有一個問題就是
05:45
is that you cannot make an apparatus
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你沒辦法弄一個一隻大象
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
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無法獨立拉動的裝置
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
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其實是可以做到的
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.
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只是我想那東西還是不大可靠
05:53
And so what we did in that case --
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所以我們採取了別的方法
05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
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我們在泰國幫 喬希·普拉尼克做了這樣一個實驗
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
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我們用一條繩子圍著裝置
06:01
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
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如果只拉繩子的一端
06:03
the rope disappears on the other side.
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另一邊就會往後縮
06:05
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.
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所以兩隻大象必須同時撿起繩子拉
06:08
Otherwise nothing is going to happen
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不然這裝置就不會動
06:10
and the rope disappears.
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而繩子也會縮到裝置後面
06:12
And the first tape you're going to see
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在第一段錄影裏你會看到
06:14
is two elephants who are released together
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兩隻大象一起被放出
06:16
arrive at the apparatus.
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來到裝置面前
06:18
The apparatus is on the left with food on it.
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裝置在畫面左邊 上面放著食物
06:21
And so they come together, they arrive together,
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它們同一時間被放出 一起到達
06:24
they pick it up together and they pull together.
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然後一起撿起繩子 一起拉動繩子
06:26
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
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對它們來說 這其實相當簡單
06:30
There they are.
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它們做到了
06:39
And so that's how they bring it in.
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它們就是這樣把裝置拉過來
06:41
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
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現在我們要增加難度
06:43
Because the whole purpose of this experiment
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因為這個實驗的目的是在於
06:45
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
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找出大象對合作的理解程度
06:47
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
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比如說 它們能不能達到跟黑猩猩一樣的理解程度
06:50
And so what we do in the next step
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我們的下一步是
06:52
is we release one elephant before the other,
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先放其中一隻大象
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
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如果這隻大象夠聰明的話
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
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它會在那裏等 不會拉那繩子
06:58
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
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因為如果他拉了 另一端會往後縮 實驗也就結束
07:01
Now this elephant does something illegal
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現在 這隻大象犯規了
07:03
that we did not teach it.
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我們沒有教它這樣做
07:05
But it shows the understanding that he has,
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但是這顯示它明白
07:07
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
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因為它踩著繩子的一端
07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
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就站在繩子上等另一隻大象過來
07:12
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
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等另一隻大象幫它把東西拉過來
07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
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這就是我們所說的佔人家便宜
07:18
(Laughter)
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(笑)
07:20
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
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但是這顯示這隻大象很聰明
07:23
They develop several of these alternative techniques
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它們想出好幾種方法
07:26
that we did not approve of necessarily.
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我們不認為這些是有必要的
07:29
So the other elephant is now coming
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現在另一隻大象也過來了
07:34
and is going to pull it in.
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準備要把東西拉過來
07:53
Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.
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看另一隻 它當然不客氣地吃
07:56
(Laughter)
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(笑)
08:00
This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.
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這是合作、互惠的部分
08:02
Now something on empathy.
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再來 我們看同理心的部分
08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research.
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同理心是我現在的研究主題
08:06
And empathy has sort of two qualities.
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同理心有二項特質
08:08
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
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一項是理解 一個常見定義是
08:11
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
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一種能了解他人感受的能力
08:13
And the emotional part.
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另一項是情感
08:15
And so empathy has basically two channels.
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所以同理心基本上有兩種表達的方式
08:17
One is the body channel.
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一個是身體上的
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
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如果你和一個難過的人聊天
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
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你的臉部表情、動作早就表現得很難過
08:24
and before you know it you feel sad.
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比你真的感到難過還早
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
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這可以說是用身體表現情感上的同理心
08:29
which many animals have.
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很多動物都懂得這個
08:31
Your average dog has that also.
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一般家裏的狗也是
08:33
That's actually why people keep mammals in the home
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其實這就是為什麼人們會在家裏養哺乳類動物
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that
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而不是養烏龜、蛇等的動物
08:37
who don't have that kind of empathy.
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這些動物沒有這種同理心
08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
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另一個表達方式是認知
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
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也就是感同身受的能力
08:43
And that's more limited.
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這種能力就更少動物擁有了
08:45
There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing --
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只有少數動物能做到這一點
08:47
but there are very few animals who can do that.
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但我想大象和猿類可以做到
08:50
So synchronization,
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而同步化
08:52
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism
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是整個同理心機制的一部分
08:54
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
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而且在動物界由來已久
08:56
And in humans, of course, we can study that
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我們也可以藉研究在人類確認這點
08:58
with yawn contagion.
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比如說打哈欠會傳染
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
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人會因為別打哈欠而跟著打哈欠
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
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這和同理心是有關的
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
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兩者會刺激相同的大腦區域
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
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而且 我們也知道 容易跟著別人打哈欠的人
09:08
are highly empathic.
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具有高度同理心
09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
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沒辦法表現同理心的人 像患有自閉症的小孩
09:12
they don't have yawn contagion.
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他們不會跟著別人打哈欠
09:14
So it is connected.
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兩者是有關聯的
09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
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為了研究這點，我們給黑猩猩看一個動畫頭像
09:19
So that's what you see on the upper-left,
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這就是你在左上角看到的
09:21
an animated head that yawns.
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這個動畫在打哈欠
09:23
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
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這隻黑猩猩看著
09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
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真正的黑猩猩看著電腦螢幕
09:28
on which we play these animations.
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螢幕上正放著這動畫
09:35
(Laughter)
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(笑)
09:37
So yawn contagion
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它跟著打哈欠
09:39
that you're probably all familiar with --
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大家可能對這很熟悉
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
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可能你等一下就開始打起哈欠
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
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這機制是人類和一些動物共有的
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
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這和身體同步化的方式有關
09:50
that underlies empathy
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是同理心的基礎
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals basically.
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是基本上所有哺乳類動物共有的
09:55
Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation.
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接下來我們可以研究一下更複雜的表達 安慰
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
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這隻公黑猩猩剛打輸了 正在吼叫
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
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這一隻少年黑猩猩靠過去 用一隻手抱著它
10:03
and calms him down.
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想讓它冷靜下來
10:05
That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation.
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這是安慰 和人類的安慰很相似
10:08
And consolation behavior,
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而安慰這行為
10:11
it's empathy driven.
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是由同理心驅動的
10:13
Actually the way to study empathy in human children
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事實上 要研究人類小孩的同理心
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
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就讓小孩的家人表現得很憂傷
10:18
and then they see what young children do.
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然後看小孩會怎麼反應
10:20
And so it is related to empathy,
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這和同理心有關
10:22
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
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也就是我們想看到的
10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
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我們最近也發表了一個實驗 各位也許有聽過
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees
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是關於黑猩猩的利他行為
10:31
where the question is, do chimpanzees care
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這裏有個問題 黑猩猩會在乎
10:33
about the welfare of somebody else?
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其它個體的福祉嗎?
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed
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數十年來 大家都認為
10:37
that only humans can do that,
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只有人類會能做到
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
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只有人類會在乎別人的福祉
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
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我們做了一個很簡單的實驗
10:44
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
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我們對勞倫斯維爾的猩猩做了這個實驗
10:47
in the field station of Yerkes.
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在 耶克斯 的野外試驗站
10:49
And so that's how they live.
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它們是這樣生活的
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
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我們把它們送進一個房間 開始做實驗
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side.
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我們把兩隻黑猩猩隔壁放置
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
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其中一隻有一個裝滿籌碼的籃子，這些籌碼代表不一樣的意思
10:59
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
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其中一種籌碼 只分食物給選籌碼的黑猩猩
11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
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另一種則會給雙隻黑猩猩食物
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner.
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這是我們和 維姬·霍納 一起所做的研究
11:08
And here you have the two color tokens.
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這裏有二種顏色的籌碼
11:10
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
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它們會有滿籃這些籌碼
11:12
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
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它們必須從二種顏色裏挑一種
11:15
You will see how that goes.
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你會看到它們怎麼選擇
11:18
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
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如果黑猩猩做了自私的選擇
11:21
which is the red token in this case,
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也就像現在那樣 選了紅色籌碼
11:24
he needs to give it to us.
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它要把籌碼交給我們
11:26
So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
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我們接過籌碼 把它放在桌上 那裡總共有二個食物要當獎品
11:29
but in this case only the one on the right gets food.
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在這情況下 只有右邊那隻黑猩猩得到食物
11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already.
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左邊那隻走開了 因為她知道結果了
11:34
that this is not a good test for her.
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這對她不算是個好的實驗
11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
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下一個是親社會的籌碼
11:39
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
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對於做選擇的黑猩猩 這裡是有趣的地方
11:42
for the one who makes the choices,
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對於做選擇的黑猩猩
11:44
it doesn't really matter.
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其實沒什麼差別
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
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她現在給我們一個親社會籌碼 所以兩隻黑猩猩都得到食物
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
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所以做選擇的猩猩 不管怎樣都能得到獎勵
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
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不管怎樣都沒差
11:54
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
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她其實可以閉著眼睛亂選
11:56
But what we find
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不過我們發現
11:58
is that they prefer the pro-social token.
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它們都偏好選親社會籌碼
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation.
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這是50% 線，代表隨機期望值
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
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當同伴注意它的時候 它們更會傾向選親社會
12:06
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
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但如果同伴對它施壓
12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
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像是吐水或威脅它的話
12:12
then the choices go down.
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那親社會的選擇就會減少
12:15
It's as if they're saying,
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它們好像在說
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
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如果你不乖一點的話 我今天就不會親社會了啦
12:19
And this is what happens without a partner,
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這會發生有沒有同伴的時候
12:21
when there's no partner sitting there.
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當沒有同伴坐在旁邊
12:23
And so we found that the chimpanzees do care
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我們發現黑猩猩會在乎
12:25
about the well-being of somebody else --
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其它個體的福祉
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
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特別是對來自同一群體的成員
12:30
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
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接下來 我要談的今天最後一個實驗
12:33
is our fairness study.
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是關於公平的研究
12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
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這研究後來變得很有名
12:38
And there's now many more,
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現在多了很多類似的研究
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
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因為大概在我們做了這研究後的 10 年之後
12:42
it became very well known.
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它變得相當出名
12:44
And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys.
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我們最初是用僧帽猴做這實驗的
12:46
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
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而我現在要給你們看的是我們的第一次實驗
12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
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這實驗現在已經在狗、鳥類
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
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以及黑猩猩身上做過了
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.
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但我們和 薩拉·布魯斯南 一開始是用卷尾猴做的
12:58
So what we did
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我們
13:00
is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
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把兩隻僧帽猴隔壁而放
13:02
Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other.
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同樣的 這些動物來自同一族群的 而且彼此認識
13:04
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
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我們把它們帶出族群 放在實驗室
13:07
And there's a very simple task
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接下來的責務非常簡單
13:09
that they need to do.
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它們就是需要做這個
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
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而如果你給它們黃瓜作為完成責務的奬勵
13:14
the two monkeys side-by-side,
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對於這兩隻猴子
13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
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即使要它們連續做25次也很樂意
13:18
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
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雖然我覺得黃瓜只不過是一些水而已
13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
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但是它們已經很滿意
13:25
Now if you give the partner grapes --
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接著 如果你給其中一隻葡萄作奬勵的話
13:28
the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys
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葡萄是牠們偏好的食物
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
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剛好跟在超市裡的標價一樣
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
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所以如果你給它們葡萄 它們更喜愛的食物
13:36
then you create inequity between them.
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這樣你就能在它們之間製造不平等
13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
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那就是我們所做的實驗
13:41
Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task,
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最近我們讓一群沒做過這實驗的猴子重做這實驗 然後錄了影
13:44
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
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我們認為它們會有比較強烈的反應
13:46
and that turned out to be right.
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我們猜對了
13:48
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
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左邊的猴子會拿到黃瓜
13:50
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
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右邊那隻是拿到葡萄的
13:53
The one who gets cucumber,
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拿到黃瓜的那隻猴子
13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
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你留意 她對第一片黃瓜很滿意
13:57
The first piece she eats.
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她吃了第一片
14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
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然後她發現另一隻猴子拿到葡萄 等一下你就會看到她的反應
14:03
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
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她把石頭遞給我們 完成責務
14:06
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
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然後我們給她一片黃瓜 她把黃瓜吃掉
14:09
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
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另一隻也得要把石頭交給我們
14:12
And that's what she does.
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她這麼做了
14:15
And she gets a grape and she eats it.
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所以她拿到一顆葡萄並吃掉
14:18
The other one sees that.
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另一隻看到了
14:20
She gives a rock to us now,
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她也給我們一顆石頭
14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
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但她還是只拿到黃瓜
14:27
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
14:42
She tests a rock now against the wall.
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她把石頭放在牆上敲了幾下
14:45
She needs to give it to us.
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她把石頭交給我們
14:47
And she gets cucumber again.
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但是她這次還是拿到黃瓜
14:52
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
14:58
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
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基本上你在這裡看到的就是華爾街的抗議活動了
15:02
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
15:05
(Applause)
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(鼓掌)
15:08
Let me tell you --
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我要和大家說
15:10
I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this.
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我還有大概 2 分鐘 我要和大家說一個相關的有趣故事
15:12
This study became very famous
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這研究很有名
15:14
and we got a lot of comments,
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我們收到很多意見
15:16
especially anthropologists, economists,
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特別是人類學家、經濟學家
15:18
philosophers.
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還有哲學家
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
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他們其實不甚麼喜歡這個
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
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我想應該是因為他們認為
15:25
that fairness is a very complex issue
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公平是一個很複雜的
15:27
and that animals cannot have it.
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所以動物不可能理解這個概念
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
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有個哲學家甚至還寫信給我們說
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
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猴子是不可能明白公平的概念
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
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因為公平這概念是在法國大革命時才出現
15:37
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
15:39
Now another one wrote a whole chapter
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還有另一個寫很長一篇文章給我們
15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness
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說他可以相信這和公平有關
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
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要是拿到葡萄的那隻拒絕接受葡萄的話
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,
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有趣的是薩拉·布魯斯南
15:50
who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
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在黑猩猩身上做這個研究時
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
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發現兩隻黑猩猩在有些情況下
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape
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拿到葡萄的那隻的確會拒絕接受
15:57
until the other guy also got a grape.
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直到另一隻也拿到葡萄
15:59
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
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這幾乎就是人類對公平的概念了
16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.
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而我認為哲學家們應該要重新思考一下他們的哲學
16:06
So let me summarize.
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讓我總結一下
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
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我相信 道德是逐步形成的
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
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我認為道德比我所說的這些還要複雜
16:12
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
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但這些是道德的基本元素
16:15
that we find in other primates,
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我們在其它靈長類動物身上也發現這些元素
16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
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那就是同理心和安慰
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
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親社會、互惠和公平的概念
16:22
And so we work on these particular issues
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所以我們研究這些特定的主題
16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
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試著由下而上地建構道德
16:28
without necessarily God and religion involved,
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而不需要上帝和宗教的參與
16:30
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
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看看道德是怎樣發展的
16:33
And I thank you for your attention.
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謝謝大家
16:36
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - PrimatologistFrans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.
Why you should listen
Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com