TEDxIndianaUniversity
Euna Lee: What I learned as a prisoner in North Korea
李丽娜: 我被关押在朝鲜的日子里所学到的
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2009年3月，朝鲜士兵在记者李丽娜和同事凌志美在中朝边境拍摄纪录片时抓住了她们。法庭判处了她们12年的强制劳改，但是美国外交官为她们的释放进行了谈判。在这个令人意外的、深刻地展现了人性的演讲中，李分享了她作为一个敌人被关押在监狱140天的经历——以及支撑着她度过这些日子的来自看守她的警卫的微妙的人性关怀。
Euna Lee - Journalist
Euna Lee strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information. Full bio
Euna Lee strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I recently read about
what the young generation of workers want
what the young generation of workers want
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我最近读了《哈佛商业评论》上关于
00:17
in Harvard Business Review.
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年轻一代工人的需求的文章。
00:19
One thing that stuck out to me
was: don't just talk about impact,
was: don't just talk about impact,
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有一件事给我留下了深刻的印象：
不要只谈论影响
不要只谈论影响
00:24
but make an impact.
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而是要制造影响。
00:26
I'm a little bit older than you,
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我比你们要大一点
00:29
maybe much older than you,
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也许要大很多。
00:31
but this is exactly the same goal
that I had when I was in college.
that I had when I was in college.
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但是在我上大学的时候
也是有着这同样的目标，
也是有着这同样的目标，
00:37
I wanted to make my own impact
for those who live under injustice;
for those who live under injustice;
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我想要为那些受到不公正待遇的人发声。
00:42
it's the reason that I became
a documentary journalist,
a documentary journalist,
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这是我为什么
成为一个纪录片记者，
成为一个纪录片记者，
00:45
the reason I became
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也是我在朝鲜
00:47
a prisoner in North Korea for 140 days.
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坐了140天牢的原因。
00:52
It was March 17, 2009.
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那是2009年3月17日，
00:55
It is St. Patrick's Day for all of you,
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对你们来说那天是圣帕特里克节，
00:58
but it was the day
that turned my life upside down.
that turned my life upside down.
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但也是让我的生活天翻地覆的一天。
01:03
My team and I were making a documentary
about North Korean refugees
about North Korean refugees
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我的团队和我正在拍摄一部关于朝鲜难民
01:08
living below human life in China.
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在中国艰难生存的纪录片。
01:13
We were at the border.
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我们在边境线上。
01:15
It was our last day of filming.
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那是我们最后一天的拍摄。
01:19
There was no wire fence
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那里没有铁丝网，
01:22
or bars
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或者栅栏，
01:23
or sign to show that it is the border,
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或者任何的边境标识，
01:25
but this is a place that a lot
of North Korean defectors use
of North Korean defectors use
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但这是一个很多朝鲜叛逃者
01:29
as an escape route.
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用来作为逃跑路线的地方。
01:32
It was still winter,
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那还是冬天，
01:34
and the river was frozen.
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那条河已经被冻住了。
01:37
When we were in the middle
of the frozen river,
of the frozen river,
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当时我们正在这条结冰的河流中间，
01:41
we were filming about
the condition of the cold weather
the condition of the cold weather
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拍摄那些叛逃的朝鲜人
01:44
and the environment
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在追寻自由时需要面临的
01:45
that North Koreans had to deal with
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寒冷的气候条件
01:48
when they seek their freedom.
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和周边环境。
01:51
And suddenly, one
of my team members shouted,
of my team members shouted,
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突然间，我们中的一个队员喊了起来
01:54
"Soldiers!"
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“士兵来了！”
01:55
So I looked back,
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我回头看了一眼
01:57
and there were two small soldiers
in green uniforms with rifles,
in green uniforms with rifles,
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有两个穿着绿军装拿着步枪的瘦小的士兵
02:03
chasing after us.
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正在追我们。
02:05
We all ran as fast as we could.
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我们全都用最快的速度逃跑。
02:08
I prayed that, please
don't let them shoot my head.
don't let them shoot my head.
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我祈祷着，不要让他们射中我的头。
02:12
And I was thinking that,
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我还在想
02:14
if my feet are on Chinese soil,
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如果我是在中国的领土上，
02:17
I'll be safe.
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那么我就安全了。
02:18
And I made it to Chinese soil.
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并且我跑到了中国的领土上，
02:21
Then I saw my colleague
Laura Ling fall on her knees.
Laura Ling fall on her knees.
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然后我看到我的同事凌志美跪倒在地上。
02:26
I didn't know what to do
at that short moment,
at that short moment,
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那一刻我脑中一片空白，
02:29
but I knew that I could not
leave her alone there
leave her alone there
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但是当她对我说：“丽娜，我
的腿已失去知觉。”时
的腿已失去知觉。”时
02:31
when she said,
"Euna, I can't feel my legs."
"Euna, I can't feel my legs."
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我知道我不能将她独自留下。
02:35
In a flash, we were surrounded
by these two Korean soldiers.
by these two Korean soldiers.
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瞬间我们就被那两个朝鲜士兵包围了。
02:40
They were not much bigger than us,
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他们的身材比我们高大不了多少
02:43
but they were determined
to take us to their army base.
to take us to their army base.
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但是他们决定了将我们
带往他们的军事基地。
带往他们的军事基地。
02:47
I begged and yelled for any kind of help,
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我为了能获得帮助而乞求和叫喊着，
02:51
hoping that someone
would show up from China.
would show up from China.
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希望能有人从中国的领土上出现。
02:55
Here I was, being stubborn
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我顽强地对抗着
02:57
towards a trained soldier with a gun.
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一个训练有素的拿着枪的士兵。
03:00
I looked at his eyes.
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我看着他的眼睛。
03:04
He was just a boy.
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他还只是一个孩子。
03:07
At that moment,
he raised his rifle to hit me,
he raised his rifle to hit me,
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那一刻，他举起手中的步枪砸向我，
03:10
but I saw that he was hesitating.
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但是我看到他在犹豫，
03:12
His eyes were shaking,
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他的眼神飘忽不定，
03:14
and his rifle was still up in the air.
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而他手中的步枪一直举在空中。
03:18
So I shouted at him,
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我对他喊道，
03:20
"OK, OK, I'll walk with you."
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“好，好，我跟你走。”
03:23
And I got up.
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然后我站了起来
03:26
When we arrived at their army base,
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当我们抵达他们的军事基地时
03:29
my head was spinning
with these worst-case scenarios,
with these worst-case scenarios,
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身处这个最糟糕的情境下的我头昏脑涨，
03:33
and my colleague's
statement wasn't helping.
statement wasn't helping.
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而我同事的陈述对我毫无帮助。
03:36
She said, "We are the enemy."
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她说：“我们是敌人。”
03:39
She was right: we were the enemy.
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她说得没错：我们是敌人。
03:43
And I was supposed to be frightened, too.
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而我也应该感到害怕的。
03:46
But I kept having these odd experiences.
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但是我不断的体验了一些古怪的事情。
03:49
This time, an officer brought me his coat
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当时，一个军官把他的外套
03:53
to keep me warm,
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拿给我保暖，
03:55
because I lost my coat on the frozen river
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因为我在跟其中一个士兵争斗的时候
03:59
while battling with one of these soldiers.
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将我的外套丢失在了冰河里。
04:02
I will tell you what I mean
by these odd experiences.
by these odd experiences.
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我会告诉你我所说的古怪的体验是什么。
04:07
I grew up in South Korea.
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我在韩国长大。
04:09
To us, North Korea was always the enemy,
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对我们来说，朝鲜一直是我们的敌人，
04:13
even before I was born.
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甚至在我还没出生时就已经是了。
04:15
South and North have been
under armistice for 63 years,
under armistice for 63 years,
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南、北韩自朝鲜战争后
04:21
since the end of the Korean War.
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已停战63年。
04:23
And growing up in the South
in the '80s and '90s,
in the '80s and '90s,
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作为在韩国长大的80后、90后
04:27
we were taught propaganda
about North Korea.
about North Korea.
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我们从小就受到了关于朝鲜的宣传。
04:33
And we heard so many graphic stories,
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我们看了太多的关于朝鲜的绘画故事，
04:35
such as, a little young boy
being brutally killed
being brutally killed
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诸如一个小男孩只是因为
04:39
by North Korean spies
just because he said,
just because he said,
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说了一句：“我不喜欢共产党员。”
04:43
"I don't like communists."
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就被朝鲜间谍残忍杀害之类的。
04:45
Or, I watched this cartoon series
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或者如我看的这个卡通系列，
04:49
about a young South Korean boy
defeating these fat, big, red pig,
defeating these fat, big, red pig,
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讲的是一个南韩小男孩战胜
这只肥大的红猪
这只肥大的红猪
04:54
which represented the North Koreans'
first leader at the time.
first leader at the time.
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这只猪代表的是朝鲜当时的最高领导人。
05:00
And the effect of hearing
these horrible stories over and over
these horrible stories over and over
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一遍又一遍的听这种恐怖故事所产生的影响
05:04
instilled one word in a young mind:
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就是在年轻人的脑中植入了一个词
05:08
"enemy."
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“敌人”。
05:10
And I think at some point,
I dehumanized them,
I dehumanized them,
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我想在某种程度上，
我已经将他们非人化了，
我已经将他们非人化了，
05:14
and the people of North Korea
became equated
became equated
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而朝鲜人民也被
05:19
with the North Korean government.
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等同于朝鲜政府了。
05:23
Now, back to my detention.
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现在说回到我在监狱中的日子
05:25
It was the second day
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在我被关入牢房的
05:28
of being in a cell.
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第二天
05:30
I had not slept
since I was out at the border.
since I was out at the border.
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自从我在边境被抓我都没睡过觉。
05:34
This young guard came to my cell
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一个年轻的看守来到我的牢房
05:37
and offered me this small boiled egg
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给了我一个煮熟的小鸡蛋，
05:41
and said, "This will give you
strength to keep going."
strength to keep going."
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并且说道，“这个会给你坚持下去的力量。”
05:46
Do you know what it is like,
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你知道这像是什么吗，
05:49
receiving a small kindness
in the enemy's hand?
in the enemy's hand?
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从敌人的手中接过一份小小的善意？
05:54
Whenever they were kind to me,
I thought the worst case
I thought the worst case
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每当她们对我展现善意时，我都在想
05:57
was waiting for me after the kindness.
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这种善意过后等待
我的将是最糟糕的情况。
我的将是最糟糕的情况。
06:01
One officer noticed my nervousness.
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有一个军官注意到了我的紧张
06:04
He said, "Did you think
we were all these red pigs?"
we were all these red pigs?"
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他说，“你是不是在认为
我们所有人都是红猪？”
我们所有人都是红猪？”
06:09
referring to the cartoon
that I just showed you.
that I just showed you.
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他指的是我刚刚给你们看的卡通。
06:15
Every day was like a psychological battle.
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每一天都像是经历一场心理战。
06:18
The interrogator had me sit at a table
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审讯员让我坐在一张桌子上
06:21
six days a week
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一周六天，
06:23
and had me writing down
about my journey, my work,
about my journey, my work,
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并且让我一遍又一遍的写下
我的行程和工作，
我的行程和工作，
06:27
over and over until I wrote down
the confession that they wanted to hear.
the confession that they wanted to hear.
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直到我写出他们想要的供词。
06:33
After about three months of detention,
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大概在被关押了3个月后
06:36
the North Korean court sentenced me
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朝鲜法庭判处了我
06:41
to 12 years in a labor camp.
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12年的强制劳改。
06:44
So I was just sitting in my room
to be transferred.
to be transferred.
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我在牢房坐着等待被转移，
06:48
At that time, I really had
nothing else to do,
nothing else to do,
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那个时候，我真的没什么事情可做，
06:50
so I paid attention
to these two female guards
to these two female guards
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所以我将注意力集中在两个女看守身上
06:53
and listened to what
they were talking about.
they were talking about.
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并且听到了她们的谈话。
06:56
Guard A was older,
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看守甲年纪更大一点
06:59
and she studied English.
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并且学过英语，
07:01
She seemed like she came
from an affluent family.
from an affluent family.
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她看起来来自于一个富裕家庭。
07:05
She often showed up
with these colorful dresses,
with these colorful dresses,
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她经常打扮得花枝招展
07:07
and then loved to show off.
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然后喜欢炫耀。
07:10
And Guard B was the younger one,
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看守乙是年轻一点的，
07:13
and she was a really good singer.
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她真的是一个优秀的歌手。
07:16
She loved to sing Celine Dion's
"My Heart Will Go On" --
"My Heart Will Go On" --
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她喜欢唱席琳迪翁的《我心永恒》——
07:21
sometimes too much.
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有时候喜欢得过份了。
07:22
She knew just how
to torture me without knowing.
to torture me without knowing.
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她知道怎样在不知不觉中折磨我。
07:26
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:28
And this girl spent a lot of time
in the morning to put on makeup,
in the morning to put on makeup,
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这个女孩子每天早上都花很多时间化妆，
07:34
like you can see in any young girl's life.
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就像你所知道的任何年轻女孩子一样。
07:39
And they loved to watch
this Chinese drama,
this Chinese drama,
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她们喜欢看中国的电视剧，
07:43
a better quality production.
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因为质量更高。
07:45
I remember Guard B said,
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我记得看守乙说过
07:49
"I can no longer watch our TV shows
after watching this."
after watching this."
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“看了中国的电视剧后，
我再也不想看我们自己的了。”
我再也不想看我们自己的了。”
07:54
She got scolded
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她因贬低
07:55
for degrading her own country's
produced TV shows.
produced TV shows.
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自己国家的电视剧而受到了训斥。
08:00
Guard B had more
of a free mind than Guard A,
of a free mind than Guard A,
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看守乙比看守甲拥有更多的自由思想
08:04
and she often got scolded by Guard A
whenever she expressed herself.
whenever she expressed herself.
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她经常在表达自己的观点时
受到看守甲的训斥。
受到看守甲的训斥。
08:10
One day, they invited
all these female colleagues --
all these female colleagues --
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有一天，她们邀请了所有的女同事——
08:13
I don't know where they came from --
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我不知道这些同事来自哪里——
08:15
to where I was held,
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到我所在的监狱，
08:18
and they invited me
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然后她们邀请我
08:19
to their guard room
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到她们的警卫室
08:21
and asked
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问我
08:23
if one-night stands
really happen in the US.
really happen in the US.
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一夜情真的会在美国发生吗？
08:26
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:30
This is the country where
young couples are not even allowed
young couples are not even allowed
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这是一个年轻情侣在公共场所牵手，
08:35
to hold hands in public.
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都不被允许的国家。
08:36
I had no idea where they
had gotten this information,
had gotten this information,
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我不知道她们是从哪得来的这些信息，
08:39
but they were shy and giggly
even before I said anything.
even before I said anything.
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但是在我还没说什么的时候，
她们就害羞傻笑了。
她们就害羞傻笑了。
08:44
I think we all forgot
that I was their prisoner,
that I was their prisoner,
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我想我们都忘了我是她们的囚犯，
08:48
and it was like going back
to my high school classroom again.
to my high school classroom again.
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这就像是回到了我的高中课堂。
08:53
And I learned that these girls also
grew up watching a similar cartoon,
grew up watching a similar cartoon,
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我了解到这些女孩也是
看着相似的卡通长大的
看着相似的卡通长大的
08:59
but just propaganda towards
South Korea and the US.
South Korea and the US.
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只不过宣传内容针对的是韩国和美国。
09:04
I started to understand where
these people's anger was coming from.
these people's anger was coming from.
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我开始理解这些人的愤怒从何而来。
09:09
If these girls grew up
learning that we are enemies,
learning that we are enemies,
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如果这些女孩从小到大
都被教育说我们是敌人，
都被教育说我们是敌人，
09:13
it was just natural
that they would hate us
that they would hate us
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那么她们很自然的会恨我们
09:16
just as I feared them.
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就像我害怕她们一样。
09:20
But at that moment, we were all just girls
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但是在那一刻，我们只是一些
09:23
who shared the same interests,
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分享共同兴趣爱好的女孩子，
09:26
beyond our ideologies that separated us.
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超越了那些使我们分离的意识形态。
09:31
I shared these stories with my boss
at Current TV at the time
at Current TV at the time
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后来我回家后跟我当时在
潮流电视台的上司
潮流电视台的上司
09:36
after I came home.
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分享了这些故事。
09:37
His first reaction was,
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他的第一反应是，
09:40
"Euna, have you heard
of Stockholm Syndrome?"
of Stockholm Syndrome?"
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“丽娜，你是否听说过
斯德哥尔摩综合症？”
斯德哥尔摩综合症？”
09:44
Yes, and I clearly remember
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是的，我清楚的记得
09:49
the feeling of fear
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那种恐惧和
09:50
and being threatened,
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受到威胁的感觉，
09:53
and tension rising up
between me and the interrogator
between me and the interrogator
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每当我和审讯者谈到政治时
09:57
when we talked about politics.
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紧张的气氛就陡然上升了。
09:59
There definitely was a wall
that we couldn't climb over.
that we couldn't climb over.
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很显然在我们面前
有一堵无法翻越的墙。
有一堵无法翻越的墙。
10:04
But we were able to see
each other as human beings
each other as human beings
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但有时我们也能将对方看作正常人类，
10:08
when we talked about family,
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那是在我们谈到家人，
10:10
everyday life,
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日常生活，
10:12
the importance of the future
for our children.
for our children.
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以及未来对我们小孩的重要性时。
10:18
It was about a month before I came home.
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大概是在我回家前的1个月，
10:21
I got really sick.
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我病得很厉害
10:23
Guard B stopped by my room to say goodbye,
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看守乙在我的牢房停下了脚步对我说再见，
10:27
because she was leaving
the detention center.
the detention center.
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因为她要离开这座监狱了。
10:33
She made sure that no one watched us,
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她在确定没有人看到我们，
10:36
no one heard us,
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没人听得到我们说话后，
10:37
and quietly said,
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悄悄地说
10:39
"I hope you get better
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“我希望你能好起来
10:41
and go back to your family soon."
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并且很快就能回家。”
10:45
It is these people --
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就是这些人——
10:47
the officer who brought me his coat,
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给我外套的军官
10:51
the guard who offered me a boiled egg,
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给我熟鸡蛋的看守
10:55
these female guards who asked me
about dating life in the US --
about dating life in the US --
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以及那些问我关于美国的恋爱生活
的女看守们——
的女看守们——
10:59
they are the ones
that I remember of North Korea:
that I remember of North Korea:
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他们是我所记住的朝鲜人：
11:04
humans just like us.
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跟我们一样的人类。
11:07
North Koreans and I were not
ambassadors of our countries,
ambassadors of our countries,
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朝鲜人和我都不是各自国家的大使，
11:13
but I believe that we were representing
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但是我相信我们都代表着
11:16
the human race.
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人类。
11:20
Now I'm back home and back to my life.
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如今我已回到家并回归了我的生活。
11:24
The memory of these people
has blurred as time has passed.
has blurred as time has passed.
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关于这些人的记忆也随着时间
而变得模糊。
而变得模糊。
11:29
And I'm in this place
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现在我在这里
11:31
where I read and hear
about North Korea provoking the US.
about North Korea provoking the US.
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读到和听到朝鲜在挑衅美国。
11:36
I realized how easy it is
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我意识到他们重新将彼此视为敌人
11:39
to see them as an enemy again.
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是多么容易的一件事。
11:43
But I have to keep reminding myself
that when I was over there,
that when I was over there,
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但是我需要不断的提醒自己
当我被关在那里的时候
当我被关在那里的时候
11:49
I was able to see humanity
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我是能够从我的敌人眼里
11:52
over hatred
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越过仇恨
11:53
in my enemy's eyes.
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而看到人性的。
11:56
Thank you.
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谢谢。
11:58
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Euna Lee - JournalistEuna Lee strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information.
Why you should listen
A seasoned journalist with more than years of experience, Euna Lee is a television executive producer for Voice of America's Korean Service (VOA). Prior to VOA, she worked for Fusion media, AJ+ and Al Jazeera TV networks.
Lee’s name became widely known after she was captured by the North Korean regime while covering a human trafficking story for Current TV, a cable network co-founded by former Vice President Al Gore. She wrote a memoir, The World is Bigger Now, about her experience while detained in North Korea for 140 days.
Lee has received various awards for her fearless work, including McGill Medal by University of Georgia and Glamour magazine's Women of the Year Award in 2009. At VOA, she strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information. Born and raised in South Korea, Lee holds a master’s degree in journalism from Columbia University.
Euna Lee | Speaker | TED.com