TEDxIndianaUniversity
Euna Lee: What I learned as a prisoner in North Korea
Euna Lee: 我在朝鮮作為一個囚犯學到了什麼
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2009 年 3 月，記者 Euna Lee 和她的同事 Laura Ling 在中國邊境拍攝一部紀錄片時被朝鮮士兵俘獲。朝鮮法庭判處他們 12 年的苦役，但在美國外交官的談判之下，最終同意釋放他們。在這段令人驚訝的、深刻的人性談話中，Lee 分享了她在拘留所作為敵人生活了 140 天的經歷，以及從給予她力量的看守那兒看到的人性的微小姿態。
Euna Lee - Journalist
Euna Lee strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information. Full bio
Euna Lee strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I recently read about
what the young generation of workers want
what the young generation of workers want
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我最近在《哈佛商業評論》中讀了
探討年輕一代工作者
想要什麼的文章。
想要什麼的文章。
00:17
in Harvard Business Review.
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00:19
One thing that stuck out to me
was: don't just talk about impact,
was: don't just talk about impact,
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一個在我腦海裡出現的目標是：
不要僅僅去空談影響，
不要僅僅去空談影響，
而是要去真正地產生影響。
00:24
but make an impact.
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00:26
I'm a little bit older than you,
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我比你們年齡大一些，
00:29
maybe much older than you,
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可能比你們大很多，
00:31
but this is exactly the same goal
that I had when I was in college.
that I had when I was in college.
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但它同樣也是我在
大學時定下的目標。
大學時定下的目標。
00:37
I wanted to make my own impact
for those who live under injustice;
for those who live under injustice;
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我想要影響那些生活在
不公正的環境下的人們；
不公正的環境下的人們；
00:42
it's the reason that I became
a documentary journalist,
a documentary journalist,
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這是我成為一名紀錄片記者的原因，
00:45
the reason I became
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也是我曾被囚禁于朝鮮長達
140 天的原因。
140 天的原因。
00:47
a prisoner in North Korea for 140 days.
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00:52
It was March 17, 2009.
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那天是 2009 年 3 月 17 日。
00:55
It is St. Patrick's Day for all of you,
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是所有人的聖派翠克節，
00:58
but it was the day
that turned my life upside down.
that turned my life upside down.
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但那一天成為了逆轉我人生的日子。
01:03
My team and I were making a documentary
about North Korean refugees
about North Korean refugees
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我和我的團隊當時正在錄製一部關於
01:08
living below human life in China.
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在中國艱難度日的朝鮮難民的紀錄片。
01:13
We were at the border.
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我們在邊境上。
01:15
It was our last day of filming.
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那一天是我們拍攝的最後一天。
01:19
There was no wire fence
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那裡沒有鐵絲網，
01:22
or bars
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或者柵欄，
01:23
or sign to show that it is the border,
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或者顯示這裡是邊界的標誌，
01:25
but this is a place that a lot
of North Korean defectors use
of North Korean defectors use
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而這個地方，很多朝鮮逃兵
把它當作一條逃生路線。
01:29
as an escape route.
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01:32
It was still winter,
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那天還仍然處於冬季，
01:34
and the river was frozen.
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河流被冰封了。
01:37
When we were in the middle
of the frozen river,
of the frozen river,
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當我們在凍河中間時，
01:41
we were filming about
the condition of the cold weather
the condition of the cold weather
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我們還正在錄製關於寒冷氣候的情況，
01:44
and the environment
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以及當朝鮮人尋求他們的自由時，
01:45
that North Koreans had to deal with
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他們不得不面對的環境。
01:48
when they seek their freedom.
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01:51
And suddenly, one
of my team members shouted,
of my team members shouted,
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突然間，一名隊友大聲地喊叫，
01:54
"Soldiers!"
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「士兵！」
01:55
So I looked back,
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所以我回頭看，
01:57
and there were two small soldiers
in green uniforms with rifles,
in green uniforms with rifles,
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看到了有兩個穿著綠色制服
並且背著步槍的小士兵，
並且背著步槍的小士兵，
02:03
chasing after us.
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正追逐著我們。
02:05
We all ran as fast as we could.
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我們所有人都在竭力奔跑。
02:08
I prayed that, please
don't let them shoot my head.
don't let them shoot my head.
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我祈禱著，希望他們不要槍擊我的頭部。
02:12
And I was thinking that,
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並且我當時想著，
02:14
if my feet are on Chinese soil,
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如果我的雙腳能踏入中國的領土上，
02:17
I'll be safe.
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我就安全了。
02:18
And I made it to Chinese soil.
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我及時趕到了中國的領土上。
02:21
Then I saw my colleague
Laura Ling fall on her knees.
Laura Ling fall on her knees.
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然後我看到了我的同事
Laura Ling 摔倒了。
Laura Ling 摔倒了。
02:26
I didn't know what to do
at that short moment,
at that short moment,
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在那短短的一刻，我手足無措，
02:29
but I knew that I could not
leave her alone there
leave her alone there
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但當她說：「Euna
我的腿失去知覺了。」，
我的腿失去知覺了。」，
02:31
when she said,
"Euna, I can't feel my legs."
"Euna, I can't feel my legs."
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我明白我絕不能扔下孤立無援的她。
02:35
In a flash, we were surrounded
by these two Korean soldiers.
by these two Korean soldiers.
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在那一瞬間，我們被
這兩名朝鮮士兵包圍了。
這兩名朝鮮士兵包圍了。
02:40
They were not much bigger than us,
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他們並不比我們高大太多，
02:43
but they were determined
to take us to their army base.
to take us to their army base.
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但他們決定押送我們
去他們的軍事基地。
去他們的軍事基地。
02:47
I begged and yelled for any kind of help,
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我乞求並且大聲叫喊以尋求各種幫助，
02:51
hoping that someone
would show up from China.
would show up from China.
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希望中國領土那邊能有人拔刀相助。
02:55
Here I was, being stubborn
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我那時，十分固執，
02:57
towards a trained soldier with a gun.
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即使面對著一個手握
槍支、受過訓練的士兵。
槍支、受過訓練的士兵。
03:00
I looked at his eyes.
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我盯着他的雙眼。
03:04
He was just a boy.
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他只是個男孩。
03:07
At that moment,
he raised his rifle to hit me,
he raised his rifle to hit me,
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在那時，他舉起了步槍想要打我，
03:10
but I saw that he was hesitating.
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但我看見了他在猶豫。
03:12
His eyes were shaking,
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他的雙眼在顫抖，
03:14
and his rifle was still up in the air.
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他仍然舉着步槍，瞄準我。
03:18
So I shouted at him,
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所以我朝他大聲的喊道，
03:20
"OK, OK, I'll walk with you."
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「好的好的，我會和你走的。」
03:23
And I got up.
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然後我跟著他走了。
03:26
When we arrived at their army base,
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當我們到達他們的軍事基地時，
03:29
my head was spinning
with these worst-case scenarios,
with these worst-case scenarios,
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對各種極其糟糕的情形，
我感到天旋地轉，
我感到天旋地轉，
03:33
and my colleague's
statement wasn't helping.
statement wasn't helping.
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我同事的言論也沒有任何幫助。
03:36
She said, "We are the enemy."
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她說：「我們是敵人。」
03:39
She was right: we were the enemy.
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她是對的，我們是敵人。
03:43
And I was supposed to be frightened, too.
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我感到害怕也是理所當然。
03:46
But I kept having these odd experiences.
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但我一直經歷各種奇怪的事情。
03:49
This time, an officer brought me his coat
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這一次，一名軍官
給我一件他的大衣
給我一件他的大衣
03:53
to keep me warm,
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讓我保持溫暖，
03:55
because I lost my coat on the frozen river
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因為之前我在那條凍河上
與其中一名士兵爭執時，
與其中一名士兵爭執時，
03:59
while battling with one of these soldiers.
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丟失了自己的大衣。
04:02
I will tell you what I mean
by these odd experiences.
by these odd experiences.
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通過告訴你們這些奇怪的經歷，
我會說明我想表達的意思。
我會說明我想表達的意思。
04:07
I grew up in South Korea.
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我在韓國長大。
04:09
To us, North Korea was always the enemy,
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對我們來說，朝鮮一直都是敵人，
甚至在我出生以前就如此。
04:13
even before I was born.
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04:15
South and North have been
under armistice for 63 years,
under armistice for 63 years,
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朝鮮和韓國從朝鮮戰爭結束以來
04:21
since the end of the Korean War.
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已經停戰 63 年了。
04:23
And growing up in the South
in the '80s and '90s,
in the '80s and '90s,
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在韓國的八、九十年代長大，
04:27
we were taught propaganda
about North Korea.
about North Korea.
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我們被灌輸一些對朝鮮的政治宣傳。
我們聽到過很多生動細緻的故事，
04:33
And we heard so many graphic stories,
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04:35
such as, a little young boy
being brutally killed
being brutally killed
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例如，一個小男孩被朝鮮的間諜
04:39
by North Korean spies
just because he said,
just because he said,
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殘忍地殺害了，
僅僅因為他說：「我不喜歡共產黨員。」
04:43
"I don't like communists."
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04:45
Or, I watched this cartoon series
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或者，我看過這個卡通連續劇，
04:49
about a young South Korean boy
defeating these fat, big, red pig,
defeating these fat, big, red pig,
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講述了一個韓國男孩擊敗
這些膘肥體壯的紅色的豬，
這些膘肥體壯的紅色的豬，
04:54
which represented the North Koreans'
first leader at the time.
first leader at the time.
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牠代表著朝鮮當時的第一屆領導人。
05:00
And the effect of hearing
these horrible stories over and over
these horrible stories over and over
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一遍又一遍地聽到這些
恐怖的故事所帶來的影響，
恐怖的故事所帶來的影響，
05:04
instilled one word in a young mind:
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最後會將一個詞語
灌入小孩子的腦袋中：
灌入小孩子的腦袋中：
05:08
"enemy."
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「敵人。」
05:10
And I think at some point,
I dehumanized them,
I dehumanized them,
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某一時期，我甚至
把他們等同於衣冠禽獸，
把他們等同於衣冠禽獸，
05:14
and the people of North Korea
became equated
became equated
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並把「朝鮮人」等同於「朝鮮政府」。
05:19
with the North Korean government.
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05:23
Now, back to my detention.
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現在，回到我的拘留的日子。
05:25
It was the second day
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那是我待在牢房裡的第二天，
05:28
of being in a cell.
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05:30
I had not slept
since I was out at the border.
since I was out at the border.
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自從離開邊境，我一直未眠。
05:34
This young guard came to my cell
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一名年輕的看守來到我的牢房，
05:37
and offered me this small boiled egg
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給了我一枚小小的煮雞蛋，
05:41
and said, "This will give you
strength to keep going."
strength to keep going."
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並且對我說：
「這將會給你帶來前行的力量。」
「這將會給你帶來前行的力量。」
05:46
Do you know what it is like,
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你知道從敵人的手中
得到一份小小的仁慈，
得到一份小小的仁慈，
05:49
receiving a small kindness
in the enemy's hand?
in the enemy's hand?
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這種感覺像什麼嗎？
05:54
Whenever they were kind to me,
I thought the worst case
I thought the worst case
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每當他們十分善意地對待我時，
我總會想：寧靜之後，
暴風雨將會猛烈降臨。
暴風雨將會猛烈降臨。
05:57
was waiting for me after the kindness.
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06:01
One officer noticed my nervousness.
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一名軍官注意到了我的緊張與不安。
06:04
He said, "Did you think
we were all these red pigs?"
we were all these red pigs?"
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他說：「你曾經認為我們
都是那些紅色的豬嗎？」
都是那些紅色的豬嗎？」
06:09
referring to the cartoon
that I just showed you.
that I just showed you.
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就是我之前提及過的那個卡通。
06:15
Every day was like a psychological battle.
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每一天過得都像是
一場心理上的鬥爭。
一場心理上的鬥爭。
06:18
The interrogator had me sit at a table
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一周中有六天，審訊者
讓我坐在一個桌子前，
讓我坐在一個桌子前，
06:21
six days a week
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06:23
and had me writing down
about my journey, my work,
about my journey, my work,
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讓我寫下我的旅途、我的工作，
06:27
over and over until I wrote down
the confession that they wanted to hear.
the confession that they wanted to hear.
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一次又一次，直到我寫下
他們想要聽到的供詞。
他們想要聽到的供詞。
06:33
After about three months of detention,
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在差不多三個月的牢獄後，
06:36
the North Korean court sentenced me
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朝鮮法庭判決我
06:41
to 12 years in a labor camp.
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在勞改所呆 12 年。
06:44
So I was just sitting in my room
to be transferred.
to be transferred.
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所以我當時只是坐在
我的房間裡等待移送。
我的房間裡等待移送。
06:48
At that time, I really had
nothing else to do,
nothing else to do,
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在那一刻，我真的
沒有其他事情可以做了，
沒有其他事情可以做了，
06:50
so I paid attention
to these two female guards
to these two female guards
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所以我開始留意兩名女看守，
06:53
and listened to what
they were talking about.
they were talking about.
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並且聽她們正在說什麼。
06:56
Guard A was older,
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看守 A 的年齡更大一些，
06:59
and she studied English.
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她學過英語。
07:01
She seemed like she came
from an affluent family.
from an affluent family.
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她似乎來自于一個富裕的家庭。
07:05
She often showed up
with these colorful dresses,
with these colorful dresses,
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她經常穿著五顏六色的衣衫露面，
07:07
and then loved to show off.
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然後就喜歡炫耀。
07:10
And Guard B was the younger one,
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然而看守 B 要年輕一些，
07:13
and she was a really good singer.
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她有副好嗓子。
07:16
She loved to sing Celine Dion's
"My Heart Will Go On" --
"My Heart Will Go On" --
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她愛唱席琳 · 迪翁的「我心永恆」，
07:21
sometimes too much.
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但有時候太過分了。
07:22
She knew just how
to torture me without knowing.
to torture me without knowing.
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有時這對我是一種
折磨，而她渾然不覺。
折磨，而她渾然不覺。
07:26
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:28
And this girl spent a lot of time
in the morning to put on makeup,
in the morning to put on makeup,
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這個女孩早上花費大量的時間去化妝，
07:34
like you can see in any young girl's life.
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就像你所見的任何年輕姑娘一樣。
07:39
And they loved to watch
this Chinese drama,
this Chinese drama,
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並且她們十分喜歡觀看中國電視劇，
07:43
a better quality production.
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一種更高品質的作品。
07:45
I remember Guard B said,
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我記得看守 B 說，
07:49
"I can no longer watch our TV shows
after watching this."
after watching this."
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「我看過中國電視劇後
便看不下我們的電視節目了。」
便看不下我們的電視節目了。」
07:54
She got scolded
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她因為貶低祖國出品的
電視節目而受到了責駡。
電視節目而受到了責駡。
07:55
for degrading her own country's
produced TV shows.
produced TV shows.
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08:00
Guard B had more
of a free mind than Guard A,
of a free mind than Guard A,
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看守 B 的思想比看守 A 更加開明，
08:04
and she often got scolded by Guard A
whenever she expressed herself.
whenever she expressed herself.
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每當她抒發內心意見時，
經常會被看守 A 責駡。
經常會被看守 A 責駡。
08:10
One day, they invited
all these female colleagues --
all these female colleagues --
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有一天，她們邀請了些女同事──
08:13
I don't know where they came from --
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我不知道她們來自於何方──
08:15
to where I was held,
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到我被關押的地方，
08:18
and they invited me
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然後她們邀請我
08:19
to their guard room
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去她們的看守室，
08:21
and asked
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然後問道：
08:23
if one-night stands
really happen in the US.
really happen in the US.
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在美國真的有「一夜情」嗎？
08:26
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
08:30
This is the country where
young couples are not even allowed
young couples are not even allowed
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在這個國家，年輕
情侶們甚至都不被允許
情侶們甚至都不被允許
08:35
to hold hands in public.
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在公眾場合牽手。
08:36
I had no idea where they
had gotten this information,
had gotten this information,
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我不知道她們是從
哪兒獲取到這個資訊的，
哪兒獲取到這個資訊的，
08:39
but they were shy and giggly
even before I said anything.
even before I said anything.
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但是她們甚至在我回答之前，
就開始很害羞地傻笑。
就開始很害羞地傻笑。
08:44
I think we all forgot
that I was their prisoner,
that I was their prisoner,
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我想我們都忘記了我是他們的囚犯，
這就好像又一次回到高中課堂一樣。
08:48
and it was like going back
to my high school classroom again.
to my high school classroom again.
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我瞭解到這些女孩同樣是看著
相似的卡通成長起來的，
相似的卡通成長起來的，
08:53
And I learned that these girls also
grew up watching a similar cartoon,
grew up watching a similar cartoon,
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08:59
but just propaganda towards
South Korea and the US.
South Korea and the US.
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不過是對韓國和美國的政治宣傳。
09:04
I started to understand where
these people's anger was coming from.
these people's anger was coming from.
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我開始理解這些人的
憤怒是來自於哪裡了。
憤怒是來自於哪裡了。
09:09
If these girls grew up
learning that we are enemies,
learning that we are enemies,
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如果這些女孩子們成長時
認為我們是敵人，
認為我們是敵人，
09:13
it was just natural
that they would hate us
that they would hate us
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她們會自然而然地仇恨我們，
09:16
just as I feared them.
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就好像我畏懼她們一樣。
09:20
But at that moment, we were all just girls
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但在那個時刻，我們都只是普通女孩，
09:23
who shared the same interests,
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有着同樣的興趣，
09:26
beyond our ideologies that separated us.
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不再囿於成見。
09:31
I shared these stories with my boss
at Current TV at the time
at Current TV at the time
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我回家後，向所屬電視臺的
領導分享了那時的經歷。
領導分享了那時的經歷。
09:36
after I came home.
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09:37
His first reaction was,
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他的第一反應是：
09:40
"Euna, have you heard
of Stockholm Syndrome?"
of Stockholm Syndrome?"
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「Euna，你聽說過
斯德哥爾摩綜合徵嗎？」
斯德哥爾摩綜合徵嗎？」
09:44
Yes, and I clearly remember
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是的，並且我清晰地記得
09:49
the feeling of fear
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那種畏懼的感覺，
09:50
and being threatened,
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還有被威脅的感覺，
09:53
and tension rising up
between me and the interrogator
between me and the interrogator
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以及當我和審訊官談論到政治時
09:57
when we talked about politics.
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產生的緊張感。
09:59
There definitely was a wall
that we couldn't climb over.
that we couldn't climb over.
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那裡顯然有一堵
我們不能跨越的牆。
我們不能跨越的牆。
10:04
But we were able to see
each other as human beings
each other as human beings
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但是同為人類，
我們能夠去理解對方，
我們能夠去理解對方，
10:08
when we talked about family,
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當我們談論到家庭、
10:10
everyday life,
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日常生活、
10:12
the importance of the future
for our children.
for our children.
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以及兒女們的未來的重要性。
10:18
It was about a month before I came home.
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大概在我回家之前的一個月，
10:21
I got really sick.
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我病得有點重。
10:23
Guard B stopped by my room to say goodbye,
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看守 B 停在我的牢房前和我道別，
10:27
because she was leaving
the detention center.
the detention center.
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因為她正從看守所離職。
10:33
She made sure that no one watched us,
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她確信沒有人在偷看，
10:36
no one heard us,
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沒有人在竊聽，
10:37
and quietly said,
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然後悄悄地對我說，
10:39
"I hope you get better
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「我希望你早日痊癒，
10:41
and go back to your family soon."
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然後儘快地回到你的家庭中。」
10:45
It is these people --
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正是這些人──
10:47
the officer who brought me his coat,
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給我大衣的軍官，
10:51
the guard who offered me a boiled egg,
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給我一個煮雞蛋的看守，
10:55
these female guards who asked me
about dating life in the US --
about dating life in the US --
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這些問我在美國的戀愛生活的女看守──
10:59
they are the ones
that I remember of North Korea:
that I remember of North Korea:
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他們是我記憶中的朝鮮人，
11:04
humans just like us.
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和我們一樣的普通人。
11:07
North Koreans and I were not
ambassadors of our countries,
ambassadors of our countries,
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那些朝鮮人和我都不是
各自國家的代表，
各自國家的代表，
11:13
but I believe that we were representing
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但是我相信我們都是人類的代表。
11:16
the human race.
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11:20
Now I'm back home and back to my life.
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現在我又回到我的家庭、我的生活，
11:24
The memory of these people
has blurred as time has passed.
has blurred as time has passed.
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這些人的影像也隨著
時光消逝而模糊不清。
時光消逝而模糊不清。
11:29
And I'm in this place
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現在我在這個地方
讀到朝鮮挑釁著美國的說法，
讀到朝鮮挑釁著美國的說法，
11:31
where I read and hear
about North Korea provoking the US.
about North Korea provoking the US.
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11:36
I realized how easy it is
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我意識到我們多麽容易
11:39
to see them as an enemy again.
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再次以敵人的視角來看待他們。
11:43
But I have to keep reminding myself
that when I was over there,
that when I was over there,
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但我必須時刻提醒自己
當我以前在那兒時，
11:49
I was able to see humanity
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能在我的「敵人」眼裡看到，
11:52
over hatred
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比起憎惡，更多的是人性。
11:53
in my enemy's eyes.
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11:56
Thank you.
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謝謝你。
11:58
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Euna Lee - JournalistEuna Lee strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information.
Why you should listen
A seasoned journalist with more than years of experience, Euna Lee is a television executive producer for Voice of America's Korean Service (VOA). Prior to VOA, she worked for Fusion media, AJ+ and Al Jazeera TV networks.
Lee’s name became widely known after she was captured by the North Korean regime while covering a human trafficking story for Current TV, a cable network co-founded by former Vice President Al Gore. She wrote a memoir, The World is Bigger Now, about her experience while detained in North Korea for 140 days.
Lee has received various awards for her fearless work, including McGill Medal by University of Georgia and Glamour magazine's Women of the Year Award in 2009. At VOA, she strives to be a voice for the voiceless and a window for those with no access to outside information. Born and raised in South Korea, Lee holds a master’s degree in journalism from Columbia University.
Euna Lee | Speaker | TED.com