TED2016
Kang Lee: Can you really tell if a kid is lying?
Kang Lee: Ar tikrai suprantame, kada vaikas meluoja?
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Readability: 4.2
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Ar vaikai prasti melagiai? Manai, kad gali atskirti meluojantį vaiką? Vystymosi tyrėjas Kang Lee aiškinasi, kas vyksta vaiko psichikoje, kai jis meluoja. Vaikai meluoja daug, jau nuo dvejų metų amžiaus. Iš tiesų, jiems netgi gerai sekasi. Lee aiškina, kodėl reiktų džiaugtis pirmuoju melu. Jis taip pat pristato naują melo detektoriaus technologiją, kuri galbūt vieną dieną atskleis mūsų paslėptus jausmus.
Kang Lee - Developmental researcher
Kang Lee has devoted his career to understanding the development of social cognition and behavior. Full bio
Kang Lee has devoted his career to understanding the development of social cognition and behavior. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Hi.
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Sveiki.
00:14
Let me ask the audience a question:
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Norėčiau jūsų paklausti,
ar meluodavote, kai buvote vaikai.
00:16
Did you ever lie as a child?
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00:19
If you did, could you please
raise your hand?
raise your hand?
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Jei taip, pakelkite ranką.
00:23
Wow! This is the most honest
group of people I've ever met.
group of people I've ever met.
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Oho, jūs – nuoširdi publika!
00:26
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
00:28
So for the last 20 years,
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Jau 20 metų studijuoju,
kaip vaikai išmoksta meluoti.
kaip vaikai išmoksta meluoti.
00:30
I've been studying
how children learn to tell lies.
how children learn to tell lies.
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00:33
And today, I'm going to share with you
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Ir šiandien pasidalinsiu savo žiniomis.
00:36
some of the discoveries we have made.
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00:38
But to begin, I'm going to tell you
a story from Mr. Richard Messina,
a story from Mr. Richard Messina,
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Pradėsiu nuo savo draugo, Richard Messina,
pradinės mokyklos direktoriaus, istorijos.
00:43
who is my friend and an elementary
school principal.
school principal.
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00:47
He got a phone call one day.
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Vieną dieną jam paskambino ir sako:
00:51
The caller says,
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– Pone Messina, mano sūnus Johnny
00:52
"Mr. Messina, my son Johnny
will not come to school today
will not come to school today
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šiandien neateis į mokyklą, nes serga.
00:56
because he's sick."
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00:58
Mr. Messina asks,
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Ponas Messina pasiteiravo, su kuo šneka.
01:00
"Who am I speaking to, please?"
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01:02
And the caller says,
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Jam atsakė taip:
01:04
"I am my father."
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– Aš esu mano tėtis.
01:05
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
01:10
So this story --
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Ši istorija...
01:11
(Laughter)
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(juokiasi)
01:13
sums up very nicely
three common beliefs we have
three common beliefs we have
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...sujungia tris dažnas nuomones apie
vaikų melą.
vaikų melą.
01:17
about children and lying.
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Pirma,
01:20
One, children only come to tell lies
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vaikai pradeda meluoti tik tapę
pradinukais.
pradinukais.
01:24
after entering elementary school.
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01:27
Two, children are poor liars.
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Antra, vaikai yra prasti melagiai.
01:29
We adults can easily detect their lies.
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Suaugę lengvai supranta, kada vaikai
meluoja.
meluoja.
01:32
And three, if children lie
at a very young age,
at a very young age,
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Trečia, jei vaikas pradeda meluoti anksti,
kažkas su juo negerai,
01:36
there must be some
character flaws with them,
character flaws with them,
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dėl to vaikas taps patologiniu melagiu.
01:39
and they are going to become
pathological liars for life.
pathological liars for life.
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01:44
Well, it turns out
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O iš tiesų, šie trys teiginiai neteisingi.
01:46
all of the three beliefs are wrong.
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01:50
We have been playing guessing games
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Mes žaidėme su vaikais iš viso pasaulio.
01:53
with children all over the world.
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01:55
Here is an example.
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Pavyzdžiui,
01:56
So in this game, we asked children
to guess the numbers on the cards.
to guess the numbers on the cards.
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paprašėme atspėti, koks skaičius
po užversta korta.
po užversta korta.
02:01
And we tell them if they win the game,
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Pasakome, kad laimėję gaus didelį prizą.
02:04
they are going to get a big prize.
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02:07
But in the middle of the game,
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Vidury žaidimo atsiprašome
02:09
we make an excuse and leave the room.
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ir išeiname iš kambario,
bet paprašome neliesti kortelių.
02:13
And before we leave the room,
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02:15
we tell them not to peek at the cards.
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02:19
Of course,
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Žinoma, kambaryje yra paslėptų kamerų,
02:20
we have hidden cameras in the room
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02:23
to watch their every move.
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kad galėtume stebėti vaikus.
02:26
Because the desire
to win the game is so strong,
to win the game is so strong,
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Dėl stipraus noro laimėti
daugiau nei 90% vaikų
02:29
more than 90 percent of children will peek
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patikrina numerius ant kortelių,
kai tik išeiname iš kambario.
02:33
as soon as we leave the room.
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(Juokas.)
02:34
(Laughter)
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Svarbiausia, ar vaikai prisipažins,
02:37
The crucial question is:
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02:39
When we return and ask the children
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kai mes grįžę jų paklausime,
02:41
whether or not they have peeked,
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ar jie pažiūrėjo į korteles.
02:44
will the children who peeked confess
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Ar prasižengę prisipažins?
02:47
or lie about their transgression?
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O gal meluos?
02:51
We found that regardless
of gender, country, religion,
of gender, country, religion,
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Pasirodo, nepriklausomai
nuo lyties, šalies ir religijos,
nuo lyties, šalies ir religijos,
02:56
at two years of age,
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30% dvimečių pameluos,
02:59
30 percent lie,
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70% prisipažins.
03:01
70 percent tell the truth
about their transgression.
about their transgression.
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03:04
At three years of age,
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50% trimečių meluos, 50% – ne.
03:07
50 percent lie and 50 percent
tell the truth.
tell the truth.
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03:11
At four years of age,
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Būdami keturių metų amžiaus
03:13
more than 80 percent lie.
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daugiau nei 80% meluoja.
(Juokas.)
03:16
And after four years of age,
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Vyresni nei keturių – dažniausiai meluoja.
03:18
most children lie.
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Kaip matote,
03:21
So as you can see,
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03:22
lying is really a typical part
of development.
of development.
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melas yra tipinė vystymosi dalis.
03:26
And some children begin to tell lies
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Kai kurie vaikai meluoja jau dvejų metų.
03:28
as young as two years of age.
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03:32
So now, let's take a closer look
at the younger children.
at the younger children.
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Dabar pasižiūrėkime į jaunesniuosius.
03:37
Why do some but not all
young children lie?
young children lie?
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Kodėl meluoja tik kai kurie iš jų?
03:42
In cooking, you need good ingredients
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Gaminant maistą reikia gerų ingredientų
03:45
to cook good food.
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gauti kokybiškiems rezultatams.
03:47
And good lying requires
two key ingredients.
two key ingredients.
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Taip ir vykusiam melui
reikia dviejų ingredientų
reikia dviejų ingredientų
03:53
The first key ingredient
is theory of mind,
is theory of mind,
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Pirmasis būtų „Proto teorija“,
03:57
or the mind-reading ability.
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kitaip – minčių skaitymas.
03:59
Mind reading is the ability to know
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Tai yra įgūdis suprasti, kad
kiekvieno žinios apie situaciją skiriasi,
kiekvieno žinios apie situaciją skiriasi,
04:01
that different people have
different knowledge about the situation
different knowledge about the situation
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04:06
and the ability to differentiate
between what I know
between what I know
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ir mokėti atskirti,
ką žinau aš, o ką tu.
04:10
and what you know.
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04:11
Mind reading is important for lying
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Minčių skaitymas svarbus melavimui,
04:14
because the basis of lying is that I know
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nes „aš žinau, tu – ne“ yra melo
pagrindas.
pagrindas.
04:18
you don't know
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04:19
what I know.
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04:20
Therefore, I can lie to you.
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Vadinasi, aš galiu tau meluoti.
04:23
The second key ingredient
for good lying is self-control.
for good lying is self-control.
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Antras ingredientas – savikontrolė.
04:27
It is the ability to control your speech,
your facial expression
your facial expression
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Tai balso, veido išraiškos,
kūno kalbos valdymas,
kūno kalbos valdymas,
04:32
and your body language,
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04:33
so that you can tell a convincing lie.
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reikalingas įtikinamai pameluoti.
04:36
And we found that those young children
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Mes sužinojome, kad tie vaikai,
04:40
who have more advanced mind-reading
and self-control abilities
and self-control abilities
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kurių savikontrolės, minčių skaitymo
gebėjimai labiau išsivystyti,
gebėjimai labiau išsivystyti,
04:45
tell lies earlier
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pradeda meluoti anksčiau
04:47
and are more sophisticated liars.
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ir yra gabesni melagiai.
04:51
As it turns out, these two abilities
are also essential for all of us
are also essential for all of us
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Pasirodo, tie du įgūdžiai svarbūs
mums visiems,
mums visiems,
04:57
to function well in our society.
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norint sėkmingai gyventi visuomenėje.
05:00
In fact, deficits in mind-reading
and self-control abilities
and self-control abilities
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Šių gebėjimų trūkumas siejamas
su rimtais vystymosi sutrikimais,
su rimtais vystymosi sutrikimais,
05:05
are associated with serious
developmental problems,
developmental problems,
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05:08
such as ADHD and autism.
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tokiais kaip aktyvumo ir dėmesio
sutrikimas (ADHD) ir autizmas.
sutrikimas (ADHD) ir autizmas.
Taigi, jei jūsų vaikas pameluoja,
05:13
So if you discover your two-year-old
is telling his or her first lie,
is telling his or her first lie,
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būdamas dvejų, neišsigąskite,
05:19
instead of being alarmed,
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turėtumėte švęsti!
05:21
you should celebrate --
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(Juokas.)
05:22
(Laughter)
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05:24
because it signals that your child
has arrived at a new milestone
has arrived at a new milestone
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Tai parodo, jog jūsų vaikas priėjo etapą,
05:29
of typical development.
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taip reikšmingą jo vystymuisi.
05:33
Now, are children poor liars?
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Na, tai ar vaikai geri melagiai?
05:36
Do you think you can easily
detect their lies?
detect their lies?
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Manote, lengva atspėti, kada jie meluoja?
05:40
Would you like to give it a try?
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Norėtumėte pabandyti?
05:42
Yes? OK.
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Taip? Gerai!
05:44
So I'm going to show you two videos.
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Parodysiu jums du vaizdo įrašus.
05:47
In the videos,
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Juose vaikai atsakys,
05:48
the children are going to respond
to a researcher's question,
to a researcher's question,
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ar pažiūrėjo į kortų numerius.
05:51
"Did you peek?"
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05:52
So try to tell me
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Spėkite, kuris vaikas meluoja,
05:54
which child is lying
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05:55
and which child is telling the truth.
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o kuris sako teisybę.
05:58
Here's child number one.
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Čia pirmasis vaikas
06:00
Are you ready?
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Pasiruošę?
06:03
(Video) Adult: Did you peek? Child: No.
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(Įrašas:) – Pažiūrėjai?
–Ne
–Ne
06:05
Kang Lee: And this is child number two.
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Čia antras vaikas.
06:09
(Video) Adult: Did you peek? Child: No.
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(Įrašas:) – Pažiūrėjai?
– Ne
– Ne
06:13
KL: OK, if you think
child number one is lying,
child number one is lying,
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Jei manote, kad pirmasis melavo,
06:16
please raise your hand.
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pakelkite ranką.
Jei manote, jog antrasis melavo,
06:20
And if you think child number two
is lying, please raise your hand.
is lying, please raise your hand.
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pakelkite ranką.
Pirmasis vaikas sakė teisybę,
06:25
OK, so as a matter of fact,
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06:28
child number one is telling the truth,
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o antrasis melavo.
06:31
child number two is lying.
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06:34
Looks like many of you are terrible
detectors of children's lies.
detectors of children's lies.
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Rodos, jūs prastai skiriate,
kurie vaikai meluoja.
06:37
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
Mes panašiai žaidėme su daugybe suaugusių,
06:39
Now, we have played similar kinds of games
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su skirtingų profesijų ir
socialinių sluoksnių atstovais.
socialinių sluoksnių atstovais.
06:43
with many, many adults
from all walks of life.
from all walks of life.
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06:48
And we show them many videos.
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Parodėme jiems daug filmukų.
06:51
In half of the videos, the children lied.
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Pusėje įrašų vaikai melavo,
06:53
In the other half of the videos,
the children told the truth.
the children told the truth.
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o likusiuose sakė teisybę.
Pažiūrėkime, kaip sekėsi atskirti
melagius.
melagius.
06:58
And let's find out
how these adults performed.
how these adults performed.
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07:02
Because there are as many liars
as truth tellers,
as truth tellers,
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Meluojančių ir tiesą sakančių tiek pat.
07:06
if you guess randomly,
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Atsitiktinai spėliojant,
07:08
there's a 50 percent chance
you're going to get it right.
you're going to get it right.
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tikėtina, jog 50% spėjimų teisingi.
07:12
So if your accuracy is around 50 percent,
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Jei atspėjate 50%,
07:16
it means you are a terrible detector
of children's lies.
of children's lies.
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esate netikęs vaikų melo detektorius.
07:20
So let's start with undergrads
and law school students,
and law school students,
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Pirma – bakalauro studentai
ir teisės studentai.
ir teisės studentai.
07:24
who typically have
limited experience with children.
limited experience with children.
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Jie paprastai neturi patirties su vaikais.
07:30
No, they cannot detect children's lies.
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Ne, jie neatskiria meluojančių vaikų.
07:32
Their performance is around chance.
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Jų rezultatai atsitiktiniai.
07:34
Now how about social workers
and child-protection lawyers,
and child-protection lawyers,
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O socialiniai darbuotojai ir vaikų
teisių apsaugos kontrolieriai,
teisių apsaugos kontrolieriai,
07:39
who work with children on a daily basis?
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kurie su vaikais dirba kiekvieną dieną?
07:42
Can they detect children's lies?
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Ar jie atskirtų meluojantį vaiką?
07:45
No, they cannot.
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Ne, neatskirtų.
07:46
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
07:47
What about judges,
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O teisėjai,
07:49
customs officers
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muitinės darbuotojai,
07:51
and police officers,
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policininkai?
07:53
who deal with liars on a daily basis?
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Jie kovoja su melagiais kasdien.
07:55
Can they detect children's lies?
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Ar jie atskiria meluojančius vaikus?
07:58
No, they cannot.
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Ne.
08:00
What about parents?
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O tėvai?
Ar jie pastebi, kada kitų
žmonių vaikai meluoja?
žmonių vaikai meluoja?
08:01
Can parents detect other children's lies?
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08:05
No, they cannot.
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Ne.
08:07
What about, can parents
detect their own children's lies?
detect their own children's lies?
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O ar tėvai atskiria savo vaikų melą?
Ne, neatskiria.
08:13
No, they cannot.
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08:14
(Laughter) (Applause)
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(Juokas.) (Plojimai.)
Galbūt jums smalsu,
08:17
So now you may ask
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kodėl taip sunku atskirti meluojantį
vaiką.
vaiką.
08:20
why children's lies
are so difficult to detect.
are so difficult to detect.
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Parodysiu jums savo sūnų Neitaną.
08:24
Let me illustrate this
with my own son, Nathan.
with my own son, Nathan.
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08:27
This is his facial expression
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Štai jo veido išraiška,
08:30
when he lies.
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kai meluoja.
08:31
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
08:33
So when children lie,
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Paprastai vaikams meluojant
08:35
their facial expression
is typically neutral.
is typically neutral.
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jų veido išraiška neutrali.
08:39
However, behind this neutral expression,
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Vis dėlto, už šios išraiškos
08:42
the child is actually experiencing
a lot of emotions,
a lot of emotions,
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vaikas patiria gausybę emocijų,
08:45
such as fear, guilt, shame
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tokių kaip baimė, kaltė, gėda,
08:49
and maybe a little bit of liar's delight.
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galbūt ir truputį melagio pasitenkinimo.
08:52
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
08:55
Unfortunately, such emotions
are either fleeting or hidden.
are either fleeting or hidden.
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Tačiau jos trumpalaikės arba užslėptos,
09:00
Therefore, it's mostly invisible to us.
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dėl to mums nematomos.
09:03
So in the last five years,
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Penkerius metus mes ieškojome,
09:05
we have been trying to figure out a way
to reveal these hidden emotions.
to reveal these hidden emotions.
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kaip jas atskleisti.
09:08
Then we made a discovery.
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Ir tuomet aptikome vieną būdą.
09:11
We know that underneath our facial skin,
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Žinome, jog po veido oda
09:14
there's a rich network of blood vessels.
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yra sudėtingas kraujagyslių tinklas.
09:17
When we experience different emotions,
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Patiriant skirtingas emocijas
09:20
our facial blood flow changes subtly.
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kraujo tėkmė po veido oda pakinta.
Šiuos pokyčius kontroliuoja
vegetacinė nervų sistema,
vegetacinė nervų sistema,
09:23
And these changes are regulated
by the autonomic system
by the autonomic system
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jos sąmoningai valdyti neįmanoma.
09:27
that is beyond our conscious control.
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09:30
By looking at facial blood flow changes,
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Taigi, pagal kraujotakos pokyčius
spręsime apie žmonių emocijas.
09:34
we can reveal people's hidden emotions.
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Tačiau šie pakitimai nematomi plika akimi.
09:37
Unfortunately, such emotion-related
facial blood flow changes
facial blood flow changes
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09:42
are too subtle to detect by our naked eye.
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Tam, kad sužinotume užslėptas emocijas,
09:45
So to help us reveal
people's facial emotions,
people's facial emotions,
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09:49
we have developed a new imaging technology
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išradome naują vaizdo gavimo technologiją
09:52
we call "transdermal optical imaging."
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ir ją pavadinome „poodiniu optiniu
vaizdavimu“.
vaizdavimu“.
09:56
To do so, we use a regular
video camera to record people
video camera to record people
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Su įprasta kamera nufilmuojame žmogų,
patiriantį įvairius mums slaptus jausmus.
10:00
when they experience
various hidden emotions.
various hidden emotions.
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10:04
And then, using our image
processing technology,
processing technology,
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Tada apdorojame duomenis
10:08
we can extract transdermal images
of facial blood flow changes.
of facial blood flow changes.
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ir išgauname poodinės kraujotakos vaizdą.
10:16
By looking at transdermal video images,
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Aiškiai matome,
10:20
now we can easily see
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10:23
facial blood flow changes associated
with the various hidden emotions.
with the various hidden emotions.
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kad kraujotaka veide priklauso nuo jausmų.
10:29
And using this technology,
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Šitaip galima atskleisti,
10:31
we can now reveal the hidden emotions
associated with lying,
associated with lying,
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kada patiriamos emocijos, susijusios
su melu,
su melu,
10:36
and therefore detect people's lies.
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ir atrasti melagį.
10:39
We can do so noninvasively,
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Tai įmanoma atlikti neinvazyviai,
10:41
remotely, inexpensively,
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nebrangiai ir per atstumą,
10:44
with an accuracy at about 85 percent,
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85% tikslumu.
Tai daug geriau, nei lemtų atsitiktinumas.
10:48
which is far better than chance level.
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10:51
And in addition, we discovered
a Pinocchio effect.
a Pinocchio effect.
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Taip pat aptikome ir Pinokio efektą.
10:56
No, not this Pinocchio effect.
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Ne, ne šitą.
10:58
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
10:59
This is the real Pinocchio effect.
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Tikrąjį Pinokio efektą:
11:01
When people lie,
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mums meluojant
11:03
the facial blood flow
on the cheeks decreases,
on the cheeks decreases,
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kraujotaka skruostuose susilpnėja,
11:06
and the facial blood flow
on the nose increases.
on the nose increases.
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o nosyje sustiprėja.
11:11
Of course, lying is not the only situation
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Žinoma, melavimas – tik viena situacijų,
11:14
that will evoke our hidden emotions.
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kuri iššaukia užslėptas emocijas.
11:17
So then we asked ourselves,
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Dėl to savęs paklausėme,
11:19
in addition to detecting lies,
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kokia dar nauda iš mūsų atradimo.
11:22
how can our technology be used?
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11:25
One application is in education.
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Galime šią technologiją panaudoti ugdyme.
11:28
For example, using this technology,
we can help this mathematics teacher
we can help this mathematics teacher
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Pavyzdžiui,
ji leistų matematikos mokytojui
atskirti klasėje mokinį,
11:33
to identify the student in his classroom
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kuriam dėstoma tema kelia nerimą,
11:36
who may experience high anxiety
about the topic he's teaching
about the topic he's teaching
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kad jam padėtų.
11:40
so that he can help him.
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11:43
And also we can use this in health care.
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Tai taikytina ir sveikatos priežiūroje.
11:46
For example, every day I Skype my parents,
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Kasdien per Skype skambinu tėvams,
11:49
who live thousands of miles away.
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kurie gyvena už tūkstančių mylių.
Su šia naujove galiu ne tik sužinoti,
11:52
And using this technology,
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11:54
I can not only find out
what's going on in their lives
what's going on in their lives
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kas vyksta jų gyvenime,
11:57
but also simultaneously monitor
their heart rate, their stress level,
their heart rate, their stress level,
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bet ir stebėti širdies ritmą, nuotaiką,
12:03
their mood and whether or not
they are experiencing pain.
they are experiencing pain.
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streso ir skausmo lygį.
12:07
And perhaps in the future,
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Gal ateityje ir širdies smūgio,
hipertenzijos riziką.
hipertenzijos riziką.
12:09
their risks for heart attack
or hypertension.
or hypertension.
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12:13
And you may ask:
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Jums gali kilti klausimas:
12:15
Can we use this also to reveal
politicians' emotions?
politicians' emotions?
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O ar galime askleisti politikų jausmus?
12:20
(Laughter)
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(Juokas.)
12:22
For example, during a debate.
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Sakykime, debatų metu.
12:25
Well, the answer is yes.
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Taip.
12:27
Using TV footage,
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Naudodamiesi TV medžiaga
12:29
we could detect
the politicians' heart rate,
the politicians' heart rate,
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išsiaiškintume širdies ritmą,
nuotaiką ir streso lygį,
12:33
mood and stress,
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12:35
and perhaps in the future,
whether or not they are lying to us.
whether or not they are lying to us.
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o ateityje, galbūt, ar jie mums meluoja.
12:39
We can also use this
in marketing research,
in marketing research,
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Naujovė tinkama ir rinkodaros tyrimams.
12:42
for example, to find out
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Pavyzdžiui, sužinoti,
12:44
whether or not people like
certain consumer products.
certain consumer products.
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ar žmonėms patinka tam tikras produktas.
Naujovė netgi naudinga pasimatymo metu:
12:49
We can even use it in dating.
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12:51
So for example,
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jei jūsų pora šypsosi,
12:53
if your date is smiling at you,
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12:55
this technology can help you to determine
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mūsų technologija nustatys,
12:58
whether she actually likes you
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ar jai iš tiesų patinkate,
13:01
or she is just trying to be nice to you.
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ar ji paprasčiausiai mandagi.
13:03
And in this case,
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Šiuo atveju,
13:05
she is just trying to be nice to you.
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ji tiesiog mandagi.
(Juokas.)
13:07
(Laughter)
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Taigi, poodinio vaizdo gavimo technologija
13:11
So transdermal optical imaging technology
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13:14
is at a very early stage of development.
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dar tik pradėta vystyti.
13:17
Many new applications will come about
that we don't know today.
that we don't know today.
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Atsiras kitų panaudojimo būdų,
kurių šiandien nežinome,
13:22
However, one thing I know for sure
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Tačiau tikrai žinau,
13:25
is that lying will never
be the same again.
be the same again.
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kad meluoti lengva nebebus.
13:28
Thank you very much.
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Labai ačiū.
13:29
Xiè xie.
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Xiè xie. (Ačiū)
13:31
(Applause)
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(Plojimai.)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Kang Lee - Developmental researcherKang Lee has devoted his career to understanding the development of social cognition and behavior.
Why you should listen
With an international team based at the University of Toronto, Kang Lee investigates the neurological and social basis of emerging social behaviors in young children. His two-pronged research focuses first on how and when children develop the capacity to lie, to detect liesand to feel guilty about it afterwards.
The second focus of Lee's research is facial recognition, which has led to revelations of when children develop the ability to distinguish races and has helped explain why some people occasionally see Jesus' face on a piece of toast.
Kang Lee | Speaker | TED.com