ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.

Why you should listen

For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.

More profile about the speaker
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com
TEDSalon NY2013

Esther Perel: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship

艾絲特•佩雷爾:對長期伴侶保持欲望的秘訣

Filmed:
14,648,947 views

我們總是希望自己的長期伴侶即是最好的朋友,也能保持性感魅力。但是艾絲特•佩雷爾提出,優質而且忠誠的性愛會帶來兩種矛盾的需求:我們對安全的需求以及我們對驚喜的需求。那麼如何來維持欲望呢?通過這次充滿智慧、又極具說服力的演講,佩雷爾讓我們瞭解到關於“愛欲商數”的秘密。
- Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:17
So, why does good sex性別 so often經常 fade褪色,
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為什麼好的性愛容易消逝?
00:20
even for couples情侶 who continue繼續 to love each other as much as ever?
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即使對天長地久的夫婦也是一樣
00:25
And why does good intimacy親密關係 not guarantee保證 good sex性別,
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為什麼耳鬢廝磨也無法保證精彩的性愛?
00:28
contrary相反 to popular流行 belief信仰?
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這一事實與公眾信念相悖
00:31
Or, the next下一個 question would be,
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或者說,還有一種問法
00:33
can we want what we already已經 have?
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人們能否對已經擁有的東西心生嚮往?
00:35
That's the million-dollar百萬美元 question, right?
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這可是一個價值百萬的問題,對吧?
00:38
And why is the forbidden被禁止 so erotic好色之徒?
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為什麼禁忌總是如此充滿誘惑?
00:40
What is it about transgression that makes品牌 desire慾望 so potent有力的?
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究竟是什麼能讓越軌的欲望變得如此強烈?
00:44
And why does sex性別 make babies嬰兒,
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為什麼性愛製造寶寶
00:46
and babies嬰兒 spell拼寫 erotic好色之徒 disaster災害 in couples情侶?
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而寶寶卻註定了愛欲的湮滅?
00:50
It's kind of the fatal致命 erotic好色之徒 blow打擊, isn't it?
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這難道不是熄滅愛火的致命一擊嗎?
00:52
And when you love, how does it feel?
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愛情是什麼感覺?
00:55
And when you desire慾望, how is it different不同?
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欲望又有何不同?
00:58
These are some of the questions問題
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這些問題
01:00
that are at the center中央 of my exploration勘探
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是我探索關於愛欲本質
01:02
on the nature性質 of erotic好色之徒 desire慾望
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的核心
01:05
and its concomitant伴隨 dilemmas困境 in modern現代 love.
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以及由之衍生出來的種種當代戀愛難題
01:09
So I travel旅行 the globe地球,
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因此,我踏遍全球
01:11
and what I'm noticing注意到 is that
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隨之發現
01:13
everywhere到處 where romanticism浪漫主義 has entered進入,
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每當浪漫主義進入
01:16
there seems似乎 to be a crisis危機 of desire慾望.
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愛欲危機似乎就要到來
01:19
A crisis危機 of desire慾望, as in owning擁有 the wanting希望 --
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擁有所缺之物會帶來欲望的危機
01:24
desire慾望 as an expression表達 of our individuality個性,
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欲望是我們對個體的展現
01:27
of our free自由 choice選擇, of our preferences優先, of our identity身分 --
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展現我們的自由選擇、我們的偏好、我們的身份
01:30
desire慾望 that has become成為 a central中央 concept概念
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欲望已成為一個核心概念
01:34
as part部分 of modern現代 love and individualistic個人主義的 societies社會.
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存在於當代戀愛中,存在於個人主義社會中
01:37
You know, this is the first time in the history歷史 of humankind人類
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諸位可知這是人類歷史上第一次
01:40
where we are trying to experience經驗 sexuality性慾 in the long term術語,
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人們想要長期地體驗性生活
01:46
not because we want 14 children孩子,
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並非因為我們想要14個孩子
01:50
for which哪一個 we need to have even more because many許多 of them won't慣於 make it,
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或是我們需要生育更多以免一些孩子早夭
01:54
and not because it is exclusively a woman's女人的 marital婚姻 duty義務.
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也不是因為這是女性獨有的婚姻義務
01:59
This is the first time that we want sex性別 over time
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這是我們初次渴望長期活躍的性愛
02:03
about pleasure樂趣 and connection連接 that is rooted in desire慾望.
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那份根植於欲望之中的歡愉和羈絆
02:08
So what sustains維持 desire慾望, and why is it so difficult?
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保持欲望的關鍵是什麼?為什麼如此困難?
02:11
And at the heart of sustaining維持 desire慾望 in a committed提交 relationship關係,
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在一段婚姻關係中維持欲望的關鍵
02:16
I think is the reconciliation和解 of two fundamental基本的 human人的 needs需求.
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我認為是兩種基本人類需求的調和
02:22
On the one hand, our need for security安全, for predictability預測,
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一邊是我們對安全和可預知性的需求
02:27
for safety安全, for dependability可靠性, for reliability可靠性, for permanence持久性 --
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渴望安定、可靠、可信、永恆
02:35
all these anchoring錨固, grounding接地 experiences經驗 of our lives生活
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這些都是人生中停船落地的體驗
02:38
that we call home.
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我們稱之為家
02:39
But we also have an equally一樣 strong強大 need -- men男人 and women婦女 --
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但我們無論男女也具有一種同樣強烈的需求
02:44
for adventure冒險, for novelty新奇, for mystery神秘, for risk風險, for danger危險,
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渴望歷險、新奇、神秘、莫測、危險
02:49
for the unknown未知, for the unexpected意外, surprise --
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渴望未知,以及意料之外的驚喜
02:53
you get the gist要旨 -- for journey旅程, for travel旅行.
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你們領悟了吧——這就是旅程
02:57
So reconciling調和 our need for security安全
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將我們對安全和冒險的兩種需求
02:59
and our need for adventure冒險 into one relationship關係,
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調和到一種關係中
03:02
or what we today今天 like to call a passionate多情 marriage婚姻,
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也就是實現我們今天所說的“激情婚姻”
03:05
used to be a contradiction矛盾 in terms條款.
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曾經可是一對矛盾
03:07
Marriage婚姻 was an economic經濟 institution機構
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婚姻從前是一項經濟制度
03:10
in which哪一個 you were given特定 a partnership合夥 for life
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人們被賦予了一個終身合夥關係
03:14
in terms條款 of children孩子 and social社會 status狀態
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關乎後代、社會地位、
03:16
and succession演替 and companionship友誼.
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繼承權和溫情
03:19
But now we want our partner夥伴 to still give us all these things,
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現在我們仍然對婚姻有著同樣的期待
03:23
but in addition加成 I want you to be my best最好 friend朋友
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但同時也希望配偶是自己最好的朋友、
03:26
and my trusted信任 confidant知己 and my passionate多情 lover情人 to boot,
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也是值得託付的知己、更是激情澎湃的愛人
03:29
and we live生活 twice兩次 as long.
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而我們的壽命,是前人的兩倍那麼久
03:30
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
03:33
So we come to one person, and we basically基本上 are asking them
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總而言之,我們現在要求那個人
03:37
to give us what once一旦 an entire整個 village used to provide提供:
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能帶給我們從前全村上下一起提供的東西
03:41
Give me belonging屬於, give me identity身分, give me continuity連續性,
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歸屬感、身份、一致性,
03:45
but give me transcendence超越 and mystery神秘 and awe威嚴 all in one.
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還有超脫、神秘和敬畏
03:49
Give me comfort安慰, give me edge邊緣.
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會帶來舒適感,也製造緊張感;
03:51
Give me novelty新奇, give me familiarity熟悉.
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花樣不斷翻新,卻不脫離熟悉;
03:52
Give me predictability預測, give me surprise.
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讓我能夠預知,但也不乏驚喜;
03:55
And we think it's a given特定, and toys玩具 and lingerie女用貼身內衣褲 are going to save保存 us with that.
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而我們認為這只要靠情趣用品和情趣內衣就可以搞定了
03:59
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
04:04
So now we get to the existential存在 reality現實 of the story故事, right?
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這會兒我們觸及到了問題的現存真實
04:08
Because I think, in some way -- and I'll come back to that --
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我認為,從某種意義上(一會兒我會講到)
04:14
but the crisis危機 of desire慾望 is often經常 a crisis危機 of the imagination想像力.
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欲望的危機通常是一種想像力的危機
04:18
So why does good sex性別 so often經常 fade褪色?
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為什麼好的性愛容易消逝?
04:21
What is the relationship關係 between之間 love and desire慾望?
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愛和欲是一種什麼關係?
04:24
How do they relate涉及, and how do they conflict衝突?
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它們如何聯繫,又如何衝突?
04:27
Because therein在其中 lies the mystery神秘 of eroticism性慾亢進.
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性衝動的秘密就隱藏於此
04:30
So if there is a verb動詞, for me, that comes with love, it's "to have."
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對我來說,如果用一個核心動詞來描述愛,那就是“擁有”
04:34
And if there is a verb動詞 that comes with desire慾望, it is "to want."
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而用一個核心動詞來描述欲,那就是“渴望”
04:39
In love, we want to have, we want to know the beloved心愛.
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沐浴愛河時,我們嚮往擁有,我們希望瞭解摯愛的那個人。
04:42
We want to minimize最小化 the distance距離. We want to contract合同 that gap間隙.
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我們要千方百計拉近距離,縮小差距,
04:47
We want to neutralize抵消 the tensions緊張. We want closeness親近.
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減輕緊張,增進親密。
04:51
But in desire慾望, we tend趨向 to not really want to go back to the places地方 we've我們已經 already已經 gone走了.
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而欲火中燒時,我們卻並非想要那些已經擁有的東西
04:56
Forgone放棄的 conclusion結論 does not keep our interest利益.
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註定的結局無法引起我們的興趣
05:00
In desire慾望, we want an Other, somebody on the other side that we can go visit訪問,
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欲望就是我們渴望遠方有另一個人可以去拜訪
05:05
that we can go spend some time with,
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與之共度一段時光
05:07
that we can go see what goes on in their red light district.
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去看看他們的紅燈區有什麼事發生
05:11
In desire慾望, we want a bridge to cross交叉.
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欲火中燒時,我們渴望有座橋去跨越
05:15
Or in other words, I sometimes有時 say, fire needs需求 air空氣.
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換個說法,我有時說風助火勢
05:18
Desire慾望 needs需求 space空間.
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而空間成就欲望
05:20
And when it's said like that, it's often經常 quite相當 abstract抽象.
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這樣的說法可能比較抽象
05:24
But then I took a question with me.
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但我會問一個(具體的)問題
05:25
And I've gone走了 to more than 20 countries國家 in the last few少數 years年份
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過去幾年我到過20多個國家
05:28
with "Mating交配 in Captivity囚禁," and I asked people,
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為了寫作《家中的性(Mating in Captivity)》這本書
05:31
when do you find yourself你自己 most drawn to your partner夥伴?
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我詢問人們:“你在什麼情況下覺得伴侶最有魅力?”
05:34
Not attracted吸引 sexually, per seSE, but most drawn.
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不是性的吸引,而是伴侶本身的魅力
05:37
And across橫過 culture文化, across橫過 religion宗教, and across橫過 gender性別 --
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無所謂文化、宗教、和性別的差異
05:41
except for one -- there are a few少數 answers答案 that just keep coming未來 back.
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有些回答總是重複出現
05:46
So the first group is: I am most drawn to my partner夥伴
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第一組共同的回答是:“我認為伴侶最有魅力的時候,
05:51
when she is away, when we are apart距離, when we reunite團聚.
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就是她不在身邊,我們相隔兩地,小別後的重逢時。”
05:57
Basically基本上, when I get back in touch觸摸
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基本上,這些都是
06:01
with my ability能力 to imagine想像 myself with my partner夥伴,
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我能重新想像到與伴侶在一起的情形
06:05
when my imagination想像力 comes back in the picture圖片,
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想像力之所以能回歸
06:07
and when I can root it in absence缺席 and in longing渴望,
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原因在於伴侶不在身邊而產生的渴望
06:12
which哪一個 is a major重大的 component零件 of desire慾望.
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這份渴望正是欲望的主要成分
06:15
But then the second第二 group is even more interesting有趣:
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第二組共同的回答則更為有趣:
06:18
I am most drawn to my partner夥伴
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“我認為伴侶最有魅力的時候,
06:20
when I see him in the studio工作室, when she is onstage在舞台上,
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“就是看到他在工作室(創作),她在舞臺上(表演);
06:24
when he is in his element元件, when she's doing something she's passionate多情 about,
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“當他在自己的領域如魚得水時;
當她做著全心熱愛的事情時;
06:28
when I see him at a party派對 and other people are really drawn to him,
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當我看到他在派對上魅力四射、受到他人歡迎時;
06:32
when I see her hold保持 court法庭.
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“當我看到她主持庭審時。”
06:34
Basically基本上, when I look at my partner夥伴 radiant輻射的 and confident信心,
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基本上,這些都是看到了對方光彩照人、自信煥發的時刻,
06:38
probably大概 the biggest最大 turn-on打開 across橫過 the board.
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這可能是最重大、最全方位的興奮點
06:42
Radiant輻射的, as in self-sustaining自持.
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容光煥發,自立自足。
06:44
I look at this person -- by the way, in desire慾望
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“我凝視著這個人”——而且還帶著欲望
06:47
people rarely很少 talk about it, when we are blended混合 into one,
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人們很少說“當我們合而為一時”
06:50
five centimeters公分 from each other. I don't know in inches英寸 how much that is.
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“相距僅5公分。”我不知道(5公分)是多少英寸
(但至少說明距離不太近)
06:53
But it's also not when the other person is that far apart距離
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對方也並沒有在太遙遠的地方
06:57
that you no longer see them.
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以至於你看不到他們
06:58
It's when I'm looking at my partner夥伴 from a comfortable自在 distance距離,
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我是在一個舒適的距離看著我的伴侶
07:02
where this person that is already已經 so familiar, so known已知,
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當這個我已經非常熟悉、非常瞭解的人
07:07
is momentarily瞬間 once一旦 again somewhat有些 mysterious神秘, somewhat有些 elusive難以捉摸.
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頃刻間有變回了那個有些神秘、難以捉摸的人
07:12
And in this space空間 between之間 me and the other lies the erotic好色之徒 élan,
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在我與對方的空間之中醞釀著性衝動
07:16
lies that movement運動 toward the other.
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這裡隱含著通向對方的行動
07:19
Because sometimes有時, as Proust普魯斯特 says,
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有時候,就像普魯斯特所過的
07:21
mystery神秘 is not about traveling旅行 to new places地方,
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神秘“並不是去往新的風光,
07:24
but it's about looking with new eyes眼睛.
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而在於擁有新的眼光。”
07:26
And so, when I see my partner夥伴 on his own擁有 or her own擁有,
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因而,當我看到伴侶獨自一人
07:30
doing something in which哪一個 they are enveloped籠罩,
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在獨特的氛圍中做著擅長的事
07:32
I look at this person and I momentarily瞬間 get a shift轉移 in perception知覺,
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我馬上就有了一個視角的轉換
07:37
and I stay open打開 to the mysteries奧秘 that are living活的 right next下一個 to me.
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我對身邊的這個謎一樣的人保持著開放之心
07:42
And then, more importantly重要的, in this description描述 about the other
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更重要的一點是,在這條關於對方的描述中
07:47
or myself -- it's the same相同 -- what is most interesting有趣
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關於自己的描述也一樣,有一點尤其有趣
07:51
is that there is no needinessneediness in desire慾望.
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那就是欲望中無所謂需要
07:53
Nobody沒有人 needs需求 anybody任何人.
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誰也不需要誰
07:55
There is no caretaking照料 in desire慾望.
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欲望中沒有關懷
07:58
Caretaking照料 is mightily強烈地 loving愛心. It's a powerful強大 anti-aphrodisiac抗春藥.
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關懷絕對屬於愛情的範疇,它能夠強力地消除性欲
08:03
I have yet然而 to see somebody who is so turned轉身 on
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我還未見到過有誰的衝動
08:05
by somebody who needs需求 them.
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來源於需要他們的人
08:07
Wanting婉婷 them is one thing. Needing孤男寡女 them is a shutdown關掉,
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渴望對方能激發衝動,需要對方卻能阻止衝動
08:10
and women婦女 have known已知 that forever永遠,
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女性向來深知這點
08:12
because anything that will bring帶來 up parenthood父母
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任何能激發母性的東西
08:15
will usually平時 decrease減少 the erotic好色之徒 charge收費.
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一般都能降低情欲水準
08:18
For good reasons原因, right?
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這並非毫無道理吧?
08:20
And then the third第三 group of answers答案 usually平時 would be
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第三組共同的回答通常會是
08:24
when I'm surprised詫異, when we laugh together一起,
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“當我感覺驚訝時,當我們一起歡笑時”
08:28
as somebody said to me in the office辦公室 today今天,
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今天有人在辦公室告訴我:
08:30
when he's in his tux晚禮服, so I said, you know,
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“當他穿上燕尾服的時候。”你們知道,
08:32
it's either the tux晚禮服 or the cowboy牛仔 boots靴子.
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要不就是燕尾服,要不就是牛仔靴
08:35
But basically基本上 it's when there is novelty新奇.
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但基本上,都是出現了新穎元素的情形
08:39
But novelty新奇 isn't about new positions位置. It isn't a repertoire劇目 of techniques技術.
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新穎並不是說一定要有新體位,以及一大堆技巧
08:43
Novelty新奇 is, what parts部分 of you do you bring帶來 out?
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新穎的關鍵是,你要表現自己的哪些部分?
08:47
What parts部分 of you are just being存在 seen看到?
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你要把哪些部分拿給對方看?
08:50
Because in some way one could say
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在某種意義上,我們可以說
08:52
sex性別 isn't something you do, eh?
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性愛的奧妙並不在於你做了什麼
08:54
Sex性別 is a place地點 you go. It's a space空間 you enter輸入
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而在於你要達到什麼境界
08:57
inside yourself你自己 and with another另一個, or others其他.
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對自己對他人皆然
09:00
So where do you go in sex性別?
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你要達到什麼境界?
09:03
What parts部分 of you do you connect to?
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你連結了哪些部分?
09:05
What do you seek尋求 to express表現 there?
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你追求什麼樣的表達?
09:07
Is it a place地點 for transcendence超越 and spiritual精神 union聯盟?
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是一種超脫的靈魂結合嗎?
09:10
Is it a place地點 for naughtiness頑皮 and is it a place地點 to be safely安然 aggressive侵略性?
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是調皮搗蛋嗎?是安全地挑釁嗎?
09:15
Is it a place地點 where you can finally最後 surrender投降
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是要終於示一示弱,
09:17
and not have to take responsibility責任 for everything?
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不再需要事事兼顧嗎?
09:20
Is it a place地點 where you can express表現 your infantile嬰兒 wishes祝福?
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是不是要表達孩子氣的願望?
09:23
What comes out there? It's a language語言.
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你想要什麼結果?這是一種語言,
09:25
It isn't just a behavior行為.
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而不僅僅是一種行為。
09:28
And it's the poetic詩意 of that language語言 that I'm interested有興趣 in,
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這種語言的詩意所在才是我感興趣的
09:31
which哪一個 is why I began開始 to explore探索 this concept概念 of erotic好色之徒 intelligence情報.
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也是我之所以開始研究“愛欲情商”這個概念的原因
09:35
You know, animals動物 have sex性別.
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大家都知道動物的性行為
09:37
It's the pivot, it's biology生物學, it's the natural自然 instinct直覺.
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這是一個重點,是生物學,是自然本能。
09:40
We are the only ones那些 who have an erotic好色之徒 life,
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人類是唯一具有性生活的物種
09:43
which哪一個 means手段 that it's sexuality性慾 transformed改造 by the human人的 imagination想像力.
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這表明人類的性行為經過了想像力的加工轉換
09:49
We are the only ones那些 who can make love for hours小時,
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唯獨人類的性愛可以持續數小時之久
09:53
have a blissful幸福 time, multiple orgasms性高潮,
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飄飄欲仙,數次高潮
09:56
and touch觸摸 nobody沒有人, just because we can imagine想像 it.
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完成這些甚至可以全靠想像而無需觸碰任何人
10:00
We can hint暗示 at it. We don't even have to do it.
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我們可以靠暗示,甚至無需付諸動作
10:03
We can experience經驗 that powerful強大 thing called anticipation預期,
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期盼是我們能體驗到的一種強大的武器
10:06
which哪一個 is a mortar砂漿 to desire慾望,
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來產生欲望
10:09
the ability能力 to imagine想像 it, as if it's happening事件,
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仿佛身臨其境的想像力
10:12
to experience經驗 it as if it's happening事件, while nothing is happening事件
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沒有什麼實際事件發生而能產生精神體驗
10:16
and everything is happening事件 at the same相同 time.
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還是甚為豐富的精神體驗
10:19
So when I began開始 to think about eroticism性慾亢進,
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我開始思考性喚起
10:21
I began開始 to think about the poetics詩論 of sex性別,
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開始研究關於性的詩歌
10:25
and if I look at it as an intelligence情報,
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如果它是一種智慧
10:27
then it's something that you cultivate培育.
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就說明它是能夠被培養的
10:29
What are the ingredients配料? Imagination想像力, playfulness嬉鬧,
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它的構成元素是什麼?想像、戲謔
10:34
novelty新奇, curiosity好奇心, mystery神秘.
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新穎、好奇、神秘。
10:37
But the central中央 agent代理人 is really that piece called the imagination想像力.
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但其中最關鍵的部分當屬想像力
10:42
But more importantly重要的, for me to begin開始 to understand理解
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但對我的研究更為重要的是
10:45
who are the couples情侶 who have an erotic好色之徒 spark火花,
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要想明白激情四射的夫妻都有什麼特徵
10:48
what sustains維持 desire慾望, I had to go back
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欲望又是靠什麼來維持的
10:50
to the original原版的 definition定義 of eroticism性慾亢進,
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我需要重新審視性喚起的定義
10:53
the mystical神秘 definition定義, and I went through通過 it
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這一神秘的定義
10:56
through通過 a bifurcation分枝 by looking actually其實 at trauma外傷,
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我從反面來看待這個問題
10:59
which哪一個 is the other side, and I looked看著 at it
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去檢驗“創傷”的定義
11:02
looking at the community社區 that I had grown長大的 up in,
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我來到小時候居住的社區
11:04
which哪一個 was a community社區 in Belgium比利時, all Holocaust大屠殺 survivors倖存者,
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那是一個居住著大屠殺倖存者的比利時的社區
11:08
and in my community社區 there were two groups:
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在那裡有兩組人
11:11
those who didn't die, and those who came來了 back to life.
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一組是大難不死,一組是劫後還生
11:15
And those who didn't die lived生活 often經常 very tethered to the ground地面,
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大難不死的那組人往往苟且偷生
11:18
could not experience經驗 pleasure樂趣, could not trust相信,
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無法感受歡樂,也無法給予信任,
11:22
because when you're vigilant警惕, worried擔心, anxious,
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因為他們小心翼翼,煩惱重重,憂慮無數,
11:24
and insecure不安全, you can't lift電梯 your head
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擔驚受怕,就無法抬頭挺胸,
11:27
to go and take off in space空間 and be playful調皮 and safe安全 and imaginative想像的.
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就無法堂堂正正地享受歡樂、心安,就無法充滿想像力;
11:32
Those who came來了 back to life were those
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而劫後還生的那組人
11:35
who understood了解 the erotic好色之徒 as an antidote解藥 to death死亡.
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他們認為性喚起是死亡的一劑解藥
11:38
They knew知道 how to keep themselves他們自己 alive.
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他們知道如何求生
11:41
And when I began開始 to listen to the sexlessnesssexlessness of the couples情侶 that I work with,
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當我為缺乏性生活的夫妻提供諮詢時
11:45
I sometimes有時 would hear people say, "I want more sex性別,"
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常常聽到他們說“我想要更多的性愛”
11:48
but generally通常 people want better sex性別,
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但通常人們想要的是更好的性愛
11:51
and better is to reconnect重新連接 with that quality質量 of aliveness存活性,
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“更好”的意思是要把性重新變得充滿活力、
11:54
of vibrancy活力, of renewal復興, of vitality活力, of eros性愛, of energy能源
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生機、更新、持續、性和能量,
11:58
that sex性別 used to afford給予 them, or that they've他們已經 hoped希望
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就像性愛從前能帶給他們的那樣,
12:01
it would afford給予 them.
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或者說他們認為如此。
12:03
And so I began開始 to ask a different不同 question.
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於是我問了另外一個問題:
12:06
"I shut關閉 myself off when ..." began開始 to be the question.
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“我在什麼情況下讓自己性致全無?”成了新的問題。
12:11
"I turn off my desires慾望 when ..." which哪一個 is not the same相同 question as,
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“我在什麼情況下熄滅了自己的欲火?”
這與先前的問題不一樣:
12:14
"What turns me off is ..." and "You turn me off when ..."
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“是什麼讓我性致全無?”
“你在什麼情況下讓我性致全無?”
12:18
And people began開始 to say, "I turn myself off when
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人們開始回答“我讓自己性致全無的原因有,
12:21
I feel dead inside, when I don't like my body身體,
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是我覺得了無生趣,當我不喜歡自己的身體,
12:24
when I feel old, when I haven't沒有 had time for myself,
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當我感到年華老去,沒有屬於自己的時間
12:27
when I haven't沒有 had a chance機會 to even check in with you,
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當我找不到機會跟你好好談談,
12:30
when I don't perform演出 well at work,
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當我工作不順,
12:31
when I feel low self esteem尊重, when I don't have a sense of self-worth自我價值,
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當我不再自信,當我感到自己的存在沒什麼價值,
12:35
when I don't feel like I have a right to want, to take,
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當我感覺自己沒有權利去渴求,去索取,
12:38
to receive接收 pleasure樂趣."
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去享受歡樂。”
12:40
And then I began開始 to ask the reverse相反 question.
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然後我詢問了相反的問題:
12:43
"I turn myself on when ..." Because most of the time,
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“我在什麼情況下性致勃勃?”因為多數時候,
12:45
people like to ask the question, "You turn me on,
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人們喜歡問的重點是:“你激發了我,”
12:48
what turns me on," and I'm out of the question. You know?
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“外物激發了我,”而“我”本人不在問題的考量之中。
12:52
Now, if you are dead inside, the other person can do a lot of things for Valentine's情人節.
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如果你自身感覺了無生趣,
就算另一伴為了過情人節做很多事
12:56
It won't慣於 make a dent凹痕. There is nobody沒有人 at the reception招待會 desk.
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而你毫無感覺,因為沒人在前臺接待。
12:59
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
13:00
So I turn myself on when,
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所以,關鍵是“我”如何激發自己,
13:03
I turn my desires慾望, I wake喚醒 up when ...
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“我”被欲望喚起的情形有哪些。
13:07
Now, in this paradox悖論 between之間 love and desire慾望,
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在愛和欲的悖論之中
13:12
what seems似乎 to be so puzzling令人費解 is that the very ingredients配料
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似乎最令人費解的就是
13:15
that nurture培育 love -- mutuality相互關係, reciprocity互惠,
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滋養愛的那些要素:親密、互惠、
13:20
protection保護, worry擔心, responsibility責任 for the other --
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保護、牽腸掛肚、對對方負責——
13:24
are sometimes有時 the very ingredients配料 that stifle窒息 desire慾望.
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這些要素恰恰能扼殺欲
13:28
Because desire慾望 comes with a host主辦 of feelings情懷
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因為產生欲的諸多因素
13:32
that are not always such這樣 favorites最愛 of love:
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恰恰無益於愛:
13:36
jealousy妒忌, possessiveness佔有欲, aggression侵略, power功率, dominance霸主地位,
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嫉妒、佔有欲、侵略性、權力、支配、
13:40
naughtiness頑皮, mischief惡作劇.
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頑皮、胡鬧。
13:42
Basically基本上 most of us will get turned轉身 on at night
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基本上,夜幕之下讓我們蠢蠢欲動的東西
13:45
by the very same相同 things that we will demonstrate演示 against反對 during the day.
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正是我們光天白日反對的東西
13:49
You know, the erotic好色之徒 mind心神 is not very politically政治上 correct正確.
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我們的情色心可不管自己心理是否政治正確。
13:52
If everybody每個人 was fantasizing幻想 on a bed of roses玫瑰,
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如果每個人在一床玫瑰中都能想入非非,
13:55
we wouldn't不會 be having such這樣 interesting有趣 talks會談 about this.
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那麼我們也就不可能進行這次有趣的對話了。
13:59
But no, in our mind心神 up there
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事情絕非如此簡單。
14:01
are a host主辦 of things going on that we don't always know
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我們很難把情色心裡萌發的那些東西
14:05
how to bring帶來 to the person that we love,
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傳達給我們的愛人
14:07
because we think love comes with selflessness無私
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因為我們認為愛是無私的,
14:10
and in fact事實 desire慾望 comes with a certain某些 amount of selfishness自私
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事實上,欲望需要一定程度的自私,
14:14
in the best最好 sense of the word:
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從個最好的方面說:
14:15
the ability能力 to stay connected連接的 to one's那些 self
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就是在他人存在的前提下
14:18
in the presence存在 of another另一個.
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保持自我的能力。
14:20
So I want to draw that little image圖片 for you,
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大概地總結一下,就是
14:23
because this need to reconcile調和 these two sets of needs需求,
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需要我們去調和兩組
14:27
we are born天生 with that.
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與生俱來的需求
14:28
Our need for connection連接, our need for separateness分離性,
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對聯繫和分離的需求,
14:31
or our need for security安全 and adventure冒險,
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對安定和冒險的需求,
14:33
or our need for togetherness和睦 and for autonomy自治,
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對團結和對自主的需求
14:36
and if you think about the little kid孩子 who sits坐鎮 on your lap膝部
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拿小孩子來打比方,剛開始孩子總是坐在父母的膝上
14:39
and who is cozily舒適地 nested嵌套 here and very secure安全 and comfortable自在,
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舒舒服服地窩著,又安全又放鬆,
14:43
and at some point all of us need to go out into the world世界
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但所有的孩子在某一天
都要掙開這個懷抱去看世界,
14:47
to discover發現 and to explore探索.
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去發現、去探索。
14:50
That's the beginning開始 of desire慾望,
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這就是欲望的開端。
14:51
that exploratory探索 needs需求 curiosity好奇心, discovery發現.
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探索需要好奇心和探究心。
14:56
And then at some point they turn around and they look at you,
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過了一會兒,孩子們肯定要回頭看你
15:00
and if you tell them,
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如果你這時候告訴他們:
15:02
"Hey kiddo老兄, the world's世界 a great place地點. Go for it.
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“孩子,世界很奇妙,放手去探索吧!
15:04
There's so much fun開玩笑 out there,"
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會有很多樂趣的。”
15:06
then they can turn away and they can experience經驗
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這樣說了,他們就能轉身離開,
15:09
connection連接 and separateness分離性 at the same相同 time.
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並同時體驗到聯繫和分離。
15:11
They can go off in their imagination想像力, off in their body身體,
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他們能盡情想像,盡情探索,
15:14
off in their playfulness嬉鬧, all the while knowing會心
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盡情玩樂,同時確信
15:17
that there's somebody when they come back.
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回轉時總有人等著他們。
15:20
But if on this side there is somebody who says,
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但是,如果另一方說:
15:22
"I'm worried擔心. I'm anxious. I'm depressed鬱悶.
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“我擔心、焦慮、絕望。
15:26
My partner夥伴 hasn't有沒有 taken採取 care關心 of me in so long.
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我的伴侶已經很長時間沒有照顧到我了。
15:28
What's so good out there? Don't we have everything
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外面有什麼好的?我們難道不是
已經擁有了在一起所需要的一切,
15:31
you need together一起, you and I?"
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那就是你和我嗎?”
15:33
then there are a few少數 little reactions反應
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這樣一來就會產生一些
15:35
that all of us can pretty漂亮 much recognize認識.
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我們毫不陌生的反應。
15:38
Some of us will come back, came來了 back a long time ago,
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我們中的一些人早早地回轉過來
15:43
and that little child兒童 who comes back
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像那個回轉過來的孩子一樣
15:45
is the child兒童 who will forgo放棄 a part部分 of himself他自己
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他放棄了自己的某些東西
15:48
in order訂購 not to lose失去 the other.
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只為了不要失去對方。
15:51
I will lose失去 my freedom自由 in order訂購 not to lose失去 connection連接.
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我放棄了自由,這樣就不會失去與你的關聯;
15:54
And I will learn學習 to love in a certain某些 way
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我要學會一種愛你的方式
15:57
that will become成為 burdened背負 with extra額外 worry擔心
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那將會負擔更多擔憂、
16:01
and extra額外 responsibility責任 and extra額外 protection保護,
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更多責任、以及更多保護;
16:05
and I won't慣於 know how to leave離開 you
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我不會離開你
16:07
in order訂購 to go play, in order訂購 to go experience經驗 pleasure樂趣,
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出去玩樂、體會歡愉,
16:11
in order訂購 to discover發現, to enter輸入 inside myself.
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去探索未知,深入自我。
16:14
Translate翻譯 this into adult成人 language語言.
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把這些翻譯成大人的語言
16:17
It starts啟動 very young年輕. It continues繼續 into our sex性別 lives生活
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這樣的情形很早開始,並一直持續到
16:21
up to the end結束.
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性生活的終點。
16:22
Child兒童 number two comes back
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第二個孩子回轉了,
16:25
but looks容貌 like that over their shoulder all the time.
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但惴惴不安:
16:27
"Are you going to be there?
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“你還在嗎?
16:30
Are you going to curse詛咒 me? Are you going to scold me?
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會不會罵我?
16:31
Are you going to be angry憤怒 with me?"
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會不會生我的氣?”
16:33
And they may可能 be gone走了, but they're never really away,
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他們也許會走開,但不會真正離開,
16:37
and those are often經常 the people that will tell you,
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這些人經常告訴你
16:39
in the beginning開始 it was super hot.
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一開始他們打得火熱
16:41
Because in the beginning開始, the growing生長 intimacy親密關係
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因為逐漸增加的親密感
16:45
wasn't yet然而 so strong強大
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並沒有強到
16:47
that it actually其實 led to the decrease減少 of desire慾望.
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能減輕欲望
16:50
The more connected連接的 I became成為, the more responsible主管 I felt,
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但當我們越來越親密,我就感到更多的責任,
16:54
the less I was able能夠 to let go in your presence存在.
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我就更加離不開你
16:57
The third第三 child兒童 doesn't really come back.
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第三個孩子不再回轉。
17:00
So what happens發生, if you want to sustain支持 desire慾望,
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如果你想要維持那種欲望
17:03
it's that real真實 dialectic辯證法 piece.
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就要真正掌握其中的辯證。
17:05
On the one hand you want the security安全 in order訂購 to be able能夠 to go.
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一方面,投入的前提是要有安全感
17:09
On the other hand if you can't go, you can't have pleasure樂趣,
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另一方面,投入才能產生歡愉
17:13
you can't culminate高潮, you don't have an orgasm性高潮,
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才會達到頂峰,獲得高潮
17:16
you don't get excited興奮 because you spend your time
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你無法興奮的原因是
17:18
in the body身體 and the head of the other and not in your own擁有.
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你在別人、而不是自己的身體中和頭腦上花了太多工夫
17:21
So in this dilemma困境 about reconciling調和
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要能夠調和
17:25
these two sets of fundamental基本的 needs需求,
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這兩組基本需求,
17:28
there are a few少數 things that I've come to understand理解 erotic好色之徒 couples情侶 do.
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那些成功保持了激情的夫妻有以下法寶:
17:32
One, they have a lot of sexual有性 privacy隱私.
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第一,他們在性生活上有較多的隱私。
17:35
They understand理解 that there is an erotic好色之徒 space空間
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他們明白各人都應該有
17:37
that belongs屬於 to each of them.
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一些發揮情欲的空間
17:40
They also understand理解 that foreplay前戲 is not something you do
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他們也懂得前戲
17:43
five minutes分鐘 before the real真實 thing.
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並不是上真傢夥之前五分鐘的動作戲,
17:45
Foreplay前戲 pretty漂亮 much starts啟動 at the end結束 of the previous以前 orgasm性高潮.
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前戲可以說是從上一次高潮結束時就該開始了。
17:48
They also understand理解 that an erotic好色之徒 space空間
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他們也懂得,情欲空間
17:51
isn't about, you begin開始 to stroke行程 the other.
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並不是單純的活塞運動
17:53
It's about you create創建 a space空間 where you leave離開 Management管理 Inc公司.,
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而是要離開Management公司
17:57
maybe where you leave離開 the agile敏捷 program程序,
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離開這個敏捷式管理專案
18:00
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
18:01
and you actually其實 just enter輸入 that place地點
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你要進入那個領域
18:04
where you stop being存在 the good citizen公民
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不用再充當良好市民
18:07
who is taking服用 care關心 of things and being存在 responsible主管.
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不用再認真做事、負責任。
18:09
Responsibility責任 and desire慾望 just butt屁股 heads.
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責任和欲望是一對矛盾,
18:13
They don't really do well together一起.
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它們無法協同合作。
18:15
Erotic好色之徒 couples情侶 also understand理解 that passion waxes and wanes陰晴圓缺.
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能夠保持激情的夫妻也理解,激情是有盈虧的。
18:20
It's pretty漂亮 much like the moon月亮. It has intermittent斷斷續續的 eclipses日食.
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就像月亮一樣,它間歇性地會消減。
18:23
But what they know is they know how to resurrect復活 it.
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但他們有本事讓激情重燃
18:26
They know how to bring帶來 it back,
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他們知道怎麼回復激情
18:28
and they know how to bring帶來 it back
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而他們之所以知道怎麼做,
18:29
because they have demystified揭秘 one big myth神話,
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是因為他們已經解開了一個
18:31
which哪一個 is the myth神話 of spontaneity自發性, which哪一個 is
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關於自發性的大謎團
18:34
that it's just going to fall秋季 from heaven天堂 while you're folding摺頁 the laundry洗衣店
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當你在疊衣服時,性致可不會突然之間從天而降
18:38
like a deus殺出重圍 ex machinaMACHINA, and in fact事實 they understood了解
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像超級英雄那樣,他們懂得
18:41
that whatever隨你 is going to just happen發生
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將要發生的所有事
18:43
in a long-term長期 relationship關係 already已經 has.
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在這個長期關係中已然存在
18:46
Committed承諾 sex性別 is premeditated預謀的 sex性別.
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婚姻中的性是有預謀的
18:49
It's willful恣意. It's intentional故意的.
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是有意策劃的
18:52
It's focus焦點 and presence存在.
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它聚焦,它存在
18:55
Merry快活 Valentine's情人節.
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情人節快樂
18:57
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by Karen SONG
Reviewed by Jui-Hsin Chen

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.

Why you should listen

For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.

More profile about the speaker
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com